I think I can assist with that. It's a more effective way for VP to say,
"What I have to say is the most important thing for you to be listening to. Anyone who says anything different from what I say is not just merely wrong, they are at cross purposes with God Himself. Therefore do everything I say to the letter and pay no attention to anything else, not even what your parents tell you. Don't trust your own instincts, they have been conditioned by the Devil and I'm the only one on the face of the earth with a sound mind. And oh, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
May take is that it is certainly a veiled threat, especially alongside of the statement "I have no friends when it comes to the Word".
My translation:
"If you ever cross me I will drop you faster than a sack of hot potatoes due to the fact I'm deludely thinking I'm staking my life on the integrety of the Word, and since God spoke to me directly and told me He would teach me the Word as it hasn't been known since the first century crossing me means crossing the Word."
This is a false prophet (and subsequent following false prophets) setting themselves up for justifying megalomaniac behavior and ruling like a dictator in a similar fashion to Hitler and Stalin.
In reality, it's not so much the integrety of the Word that's at stake, but the integrety of the people setting themselves up as teachers. If they are fake, what they teach is fake.
" I think so, Brain, but what about the "integity" part?"
I'll get off of my sarcastic binge for a moment and seriously try to explain. Have you heard builders discuss a structure, or perhaps construction of a ship? They'll talk about the integrity of the steel, meaning how strong it is. When determining how deep a submarine can dive they'll talk about how deep the vessel can go before the "integrity" of the hull is compromised.
Wierwille taught that the Word (as he taught it) was infallible So, when V.P.talked about the "integrity of the Word being at stake", he was referring to how strong a person's "believing" was in The Word. I'm not saying he was right, mind you. I'm just defining what I always thought he meant. Wierwille believed what he taught was the Word and implied that his teachings themselves were "God-breathed". Therefore imo he was in fact teaching that the integrity of what he taught was always at stake. It was one of his main ploys at eliciting unquestioning loyalty.
I just read Chockful's post and I think that is very well put; kind of what I'm trying to say. I really appreciate Groucho's "literal translation according to usage".
The way it is worded .. the integrity of the word is always at stake... was done to give people a purpose to rally to... We were protecting God's word from people who would twist the meaning of the bible to their nefarious purposes( the irony of this is not lost on me)
But now as aa adult with a better ability to look at what is said and break it apart,
It really sounds like anything or anyone can sully the bibles integrity.
It is such a poorly choosen turn of a phrase.
IF the word is truth ... then it is truth and nothing can change that.
And truth certainly needs no protector. IT is truth no matter how you slice it.
A lie now... that is a different animal, and that needs guarded or it risks being exposed in the cold hard light of day.
Word salad is a mixture of random words that, while arranged in phrases that appear to give them meaning, actually carry no significance. The words may or may not be grammatically correct, but the meaning is hopelessly confused.
.
I think that it was part of the process of the break down of critical thought that was necessary to be indoctrinated into wayworld..
Just hold it in abeyance (turn your mind off) for awhile
What it means is "The word of Dr. Wierwille" must never be questioned or misconstrued. What's at stake is when its found that all of his inspirational writeric and ideas were scams of deception the Whole thing would come falling apart and tumble down to the ground. Didn't that happen?
I think what he meant was, "Don't you dare question anything I say, or this whole fraud could collapse like a house of cards!"
What amazes me is how Wierwille elevated the worship of the Word above the worship of God or a relationship with Jesus Christ. "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word!" Here he played to his strength, such as it was - the "right dividing" of the Word that he plagiarized from so many others and enshrined in PFAL.
I suspect he personally had no relationship with God, and he diminished the importance of Christ except to use his name as a magical incantation at the end of every prayer, or to rant about "Christ in me" (which is more about "me" than about "Christ"). The only angle VPW had was "the Word." He taught us to worship a book!
Something else that has crossed my mind is that there are scriptural examples that actually contradict this phrase. In fact, Wierwille, himself, contradicted the phrase when he said, "Even if no one believes it, it's still the word."
The Word is not a what, it, thing, or book, but rather the question should be "Who is the Word?" which the answer is Jesus Christ, and Integrity is a Christian Music company that produces songbooks, CD's and DVD's(with optional display of lyrics).
VP defined a law as...a command to do something, or to refrain from doing something, issued by a competent authority, according to jurisprudence. But the competent authority is only as competent as the jurisprudence. If it's manmade, then the integrity is going to be limited, but if there is such a thing as the God breathed word, then its integrity (jurisprudence) is standard equipment.
VP was saying that the devil chips away at the integrity of the word as a strategy that has worked very well. That nobody believes the bible has integrity anymore. True? The integrity of the word was the lynch pin of pfal. No coincidence that session 3 began with the strongest emphasis on the integrity of the word immediately before JCING.
IF it was, it sure would have been nice to see that.
Instead, we got a new form of Pharisee who coveted the chief seats, adulation, filthy lucre,
luxuries (motorcycles, a plane, lots of tobacco and Drambuie....)
and fulfilling his lusts (both his vices and his abuse of women.)
He talked a good game, but spent a lot more time arranging for privileges for himself than not.
God is not mocked- vpw will reap what he sowed.
"The integrity of The Word is always at stake."
What it means is "The word of Dr. Wierwille" must never be questioned or misconstrued. What's at stake is when its found that all of his inspirational writeric and ideas were scams of deception the Whole thing would come falling apart and tumble down to the ground. Didn't that happen?
I agree. I think this was the most concise summary.
I think what he meant was, "Don't you dare question anything I say, or this whole fraud could collapse like a house of cards!"
What amazes me is how Wierwille elevated the worship of the Word above the worship of God or a relationship with Jesus Christ. "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word!" Here he played to his strength, such as it was - the "right dividing" of the Word that he plagiarized from so many others and enshrined in PFAL.
I suspect he personally had no relationship with God, and he diminished the importance of Christ except to use his name as a magical incantation at the end of every prayer, or to rant about "Christ in me" (which is more about "me" than about "Christ"). The only angle VPW had was "the Word." He taught us to worship a book!
THAT was worth repeating...Worship a book indeed...To the "secular thinker", this is pure nonsense...it should be pure nonsense to the Christian as well.
"What amazes me is how Wierwille elevated the worship of the Word above the worship of God or a relationship with Jesus Christ."
I've been seeing that too, and I can't unsee it.
Kinda like when I see "The tithe doth still provide" (which, of course, is still appended to the foundational class). I realized one day, "Hey, isn't God the provider here?"
I guess it's troublesome concept to the "ministry", this thinking for myself thing.
Wellllll, yes and no, mostly no IMO. Based on the Word (and it's integrity if we're addressing that) everyone's job is to master following the Master, Jesus Christ. This goes back to the statement "the way, the truth and the life", of course.
God who is "invisible" and larger than human comprehension by definition was declared and made known by a "living word", Jesus Christ. We can't see God, they could see Jesus Christ and the "logos" had some flesh and bones on it. (and the reality that the Torah looked different in the flesh and in what Jesus Christ preached isn't that hard to understand really - the O.T. law had 100's of requirements and they'd been extrapolated into an even greater set of applications. That Jesus Christ was said to observe them and yet preach a message of love, forgiveness and individual committment to God is actually kind of - incredible but fortunate in that we have a living lesson in what's important - Jesus Christ established a baseline if you will).
The more we look at the world around us, whether it's to look small and down or big and up the more we see the infinite and seemingly endless capacity of creation - and if the creation reflects in the "glory" of itself the Creator - we benefit from a means to synthesize and if not fully understand it, appreciate it and find our place in it.
In 1 Cor 2 those things that were being spoken and taught by His followers as the doctrine of who and what Jesus Christ was were said to be revealed to them by God, by "pneuma hagion". The relationship of God, Jesus Christ and what they taught was described in 1 Cor 2, and then the writer "Paul" goes on to describe in 3 his own role in the teaching and building of that "church". (and there are many ofher places where the lifestyle of Paul and those with him is described).
That's important if again, it's integrity of the Word that's "at stake", as Paul and the other apostles were those teaching what was then taught as it hadn't been taught - since they'd taught it - right? So there's a relationship between the bibllical records and today that's being drawn by that statement.
I Cor. 3 uses a basic kind of metaphor to describe the roles of those first generation "new light" teachers, an agricultural one. There's seed (the Word) and those who plant and water (Paul and the other disciples teaching) and there was increase - those who heard and believed. The term "laborors" is used there also, The term "ministers" or sevants is also used. Food is also used as a way to see what they did - "meat" and "milk" with the presumption that nourishment is being provided, something of substance that would usable by those "hungering" and consuming.
"Mastery" is a term that has a lot of bang to it - can anyone teach something they haven't mastered? Of course. There are plenty of average teachers that produce poor students. (Knowledge is one thing, understanding is another) Jesus Christ would be our example of a true "master" as He "always did the will of the Father". Mastery of following The Teacher. Lofty thoughts to be sure but ones that could certainly require a lifetime of endeavor.
Point being - if the records of the N.T, are an indicator those who shed that "new light" for the first time were a serious, drop dead on a dime pursuers of what they believed. Again in 1 Cor.3 the people of God are described as a temple and that those who defile that temple are, in a word, SOL.
Anyone who aspires to "teach" or otherwise plant and tend, serve, labor and feed the ol' flock needs to have their hat on straight or they'll just screw up royally. The job is to work, hard and with respect for the Lord and true Shepherd of that flock. I would assume that violators can expect to get their as ses kicked sooner or later.
Human capacity is large but inconsistent at best. No one's perfect, we know that. But something I've written before and absolutely believe - people need to step carefully and deliberately into the House of God and deal gently with it's occupants and furnishings. Many jump at the chance to be tour guides but if you don't know the terrain it can be very dangerous for all. Absolute respect is required or the end result will be devastation. Someone might say I take it too seriously but I've been on both sides of the gate here and I know now the deep end of the pool requires serious effort and diligence.
"Mastery"?.....if I were in the ocean being swallowed by wave after wave....I'd definitely want a life guard heading for me who could swim like a fish and who knew the way home.
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Broken Arrow
I think I can assist with that. It's a more effective way for VP to say,
"What I have to say is the most important thing for you to be listening to. Anyone who says anything different from what I say is not just merely wrong, they are at cross purposes with God Himself. Therefore do everything I say to the letter and pay no attention to anything else, not even what your parents tell you. Don't trust your own instincts, they have been conditioned by the Devil and I'm the only one on the face of the earth with a sound mind. And oh, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
There. Does that help?
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waysider
" I think so, Brain, but what about the "integity" part?"
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So_crates
:wacko: Huh? I thought truth needed no defense.
If the integrety of the word is at stake, I think I've proved its lack of integrety a couple million times in my life.
Beliving--a sick joke by a sicker person.
Power of Attorney--How many times have I tried this and got no effect?
More than a conquerer--yah, sure.
God and me a majority in any situation--yaher, surer.
Windows of heaven opening with ABS--where?
Great life God has planned for me--still waiting on this one.
Want integrity? Try politics.
SoCrates
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GrouchoMarxJr
"The integrity of the word is always at stake"...
translation:
...At any moment someone might call bulls **t on what we are trying to pass off as truth...
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chockfull
May take is that it is certainly a veiled threat, especially alongside of the statement "I have no friends when it comes to the Word".
My translation:
"If you ever cross me I will drop you faster than a sack of hot potatoes due to the fact I'm deludely thinking I'm staking my life on the integrety of the Word, and since God spoke to me directly and told me He would teach me the Word as it hasn't been known since the first century crossing me means crossing the Word."
This is a false prophet (and subsequent following false prophets) setting themselves up for justifying megalomaniac behavior and ruling like a dictator in a similar fashion to Hitler and Stalin.
In reality, it's not so much the integrety of the Word that's at stake, but the integrety of the people setting themselves up as teachers. If they are fake, what they teach is fake.
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Broken Arrow
I'll get off of my sarcastic binge for a moment and seriously try to explain. Have you heard builders discuss a structure, or perhaps construction of a ship? They'll talk about the integrity of the steel, meaning how strong it is. When determining how deep a submarine can dive they'll talk about how deep the vessel can go before the "integrity" of the hull is compromised.
Wierwille taught that the Word (as he taught it) was infallible So, when V.P.talked about the "integrity of the Word being at stake", he was referring to how strong a person's "believing" was in The Word. I'm not saying he was right, mind you. I'm just defining what I always thought he meant. Wierwille believed what he taught was the Word and implied that his teachings themselves were "God-breathed". Therefore imo he was in fact teaching that the integrity of what he taught was always at stake. It was one of his main ploys at eliciting unquestioning loyalty.
I just read Chockful's post and I think that is very well put; kind of what I'm trying to say. I really appreciate Groucho's "literal translation according to usage".
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leafytwiglet
The way it is worded .. the integrity of the word is always at stake... was done to give people a purpose to rally to... We were protecting God's word from people who would twist the meaning of the bible to their nefarious purposes( the irony of this is not lost on me)
But now as aa adult with a better ability to look at what is said and break it apart,
It really sounds like anything or anyone can sully the bibles integrity.
It is such a poorly choosen turn of a phrase.
IF the word is truth ... then it is truth and nothing can change that.
And truth certainly needs no protector. IT is truth no matter how you slice it.
A lie now... that is a different animal, and that needs guarded or it risks being exposed in the cold hard light of day.
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mstar1
Like a lot of things in TWI, it sort of sounds interesting but has no real meaning
Word Salad
.I think that it was part of the process of the break down of critical thought that was necessary to be indoctrinated into wayworld..
Just hold it in abeyance (turn your mind off) for awhile
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Human without the bean
"The integrity of The Word is always at stake."
What it means is "The word of Dr. Wierwille" must never be questioned or misconstrued. What's at stake is when its found that all of his inspirational writeric and ideas were scams of deception the Whole thing would come falling apart and tumble down to the ground. Didn't that happen?
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Bolshevik
Same as "Let not the Ministry be blamed"
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Karl Kahler
I think what he meant was, "Don't you dare question anything I say, or this whole fraud could collapse like a house of cards!"
What amazes me is how Wierwille elevated the worship of the Word above the worship of God or a relationship with Jesus Christ. "It's the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word!" Here he played to his strength, such as it was - the "right dividing" of the Word that he plagiarized from so many others and enshrined in PFAL.
I suspect he personally had no relationship with God, and he diminished the importance of Christ except to use his name as a magical incantation at the end of every prayer, or to rant about "Christ in me" (which is more about "me" than about "Christ"). The only angle VPW had was "the Word." He taught us to worship a book!
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waysider
Something else that has crossed my mind is that there are scriptural examples that actually contradict this phrase. In fact, Wierwille, himself, contradicted the phrase when he said, "Even if no one believes it, it's still the word."
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cman
Definition
at stake
If something that is valuable is at stake, it is in a situation where it might be lost
Definition
integrity noun ( HONESTY )
approving the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles that you refuse to change
No one doubted that the president was a man of the highest integrity.
integrity approving
someone's high artistic standards or standards of doing their job and their determination not to lower those standards
Definition
integrity noun ( WHOLE )
the quality of being whole and complete
---
To vp, it did not apply to vp or his actions, so he blamed "the word" and his interpretation of it.
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Twinky
I like what Broken Arrow says, about "integrity" having the sense of ability to withstand pressure, the breaking point, etc.
...Didn't Wierwille also say, "The scriptures cannot be broken"?
Therefore, in that sense, the integrity of the Word was never at stake, as the Word will (he also said) never reach breaking point.
Word Salad...interesting description.
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Bolshevik
What's "The Word"?
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waysider
What's "The Word"?
Thunderbird!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
The Word is not a what, it, thing, or book, but rather the question should be "Who is the Word?" which the answer is Jesus Christ, and Integrity is a Christian Music company that produces songbooks, CD's and DVD's(with optional display of lyrics).
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johniam
VP defined a law as...a command to do something, or to refrain from doing something, issued by a competent authority, according to jurisprudence. But the competent authority is only as competent as the jurisprudence. If it's manmade, then the integrity is going to be limited, but if there is such a thing as the God breathed word, then its integrity (jurisprudence) is standard equipment.
VP was saying that the devil chips away at the integrity of the word as a strategy that has worked very well. That nobody believes the bible has integrity anymore. True? The integrity of the word was the lynch pin of pfal. No coincidence that session 3 began with the strongest emphasis on the integrity of the word immediately before JCING.
His job was to shed light, not to master.
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cman
whatever vp says it is
if you are wrong he'll tell you
or
is it god is big enough to tell you himself
i forget
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WordWolf
IF it was, it sure would have been nice to see that.
Instead, we got a new form of Pharisee who coveted the chief seats, adulation, filthy lucre,
luxuries (motorcycles, a plane, lots of tobacco and Drambuie....)
and fulfilling his lusts (both his vices and his abuse of women.)
He talked a good game, but spent a lot more time arranging for privileges for himself than not.
God is not mocked- vpw will reap what he sowed.
I agree. I think this was the most concise summary.
(Supposing it means anything.)
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GrouchoMarxJr
THAT was worth repeating...Worship a book indeed...To the "secular thinker", this is pure nonsense...it should be pure nonsense to the Christian as well.
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Calavicci
"What amazes me is how Wierwille elevated the worship of the Word above the worship of God or a relationship with Jesus Christ."
I've been seeing that too, and I can't unsee it.
Kinda like when I see "The tithe doth still provide" (which, of course, is still appended to the foundational class). I realized one day, "Hey, isn't God the provider here?"
I guess it's troublesome concept to the "ministry", this thinking for myself thing.
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socks
"His job was to shed light, not to master."
Wellllll, yes and no, mostly no IMO. Based on the Word (and it's integrity if we're addressing that) everyone's job is to master following the Master, Jesus Christ. This goes back to the statement "the way, the truth and the life", of course.
God who is "invisible" and larger than human comprehension by definition was declared and made known by a "living word", Jesus Christ. We can't see God, they could see Jesus Christ and the "logos" had some flesh and bones on it. (and the reality that the Torah looked different in the flesh and in what Jesus Christ preached isn't that hard to understand really - the O.T. law had 100's of requirements and they'd been extrapolated into an even greater set of applications. That Jesus Christ was said to observe them and yet preach a message of love, forgiveness and individual committment to God is actually kind of - incredible but fortunate in that we have a living lesson in what's important - Jesus Christ established a baseline if you will).
The more we look at the world around us, whether it's to look small and down or big and up the more we see the infinite and seemingly endless capacity of creation - and if the creation reflects in the "glory" of itself the Creator - we benefit from a means to synthesize and if not fully understand it, appreciate it and find our place in it.
In 1 Cor 2 those things that were being spoken and taught by His followers as the doctrine of who and what Jesus Christ was were said to be revealed to them by God, by "pneuma hagion". The relationship of God, Jesus Christ and what they taught was described in 1 Cor 2, and then the writer "Paul" goes on to describe in 3 his own role in the teaching and building of that "church". (and there are many ofher places where the lifestyle of Paul and those with him is described).
That's important if again, it's integrity of the Word that's "at stake", as Paul and the other apostles were those teaching what was then taught as it hadn't been taught - since they'd taught it - right? So there's a relationship between the bibllical records and today that's being drawn by that statement.
I Cor. 3 uses a basic kind of metaphor to describe the roles of those first generation "new light" teachers, an agricultural one. There's seed (the Word) and those who plant and water (Paul and the other disciples teaching) and there was increase - those who heard and believed. The term "laborors" is used there also, The term "ministers" or sevants is also used. Food is also used as a way to see what they did - "meat" and "milk" with the presumption that nourishment is being provided, something of substance that would usable by those "hungering" and consuming.
"Mastery" is a term that has a lot of bang to it - can anyone teach something they haven't mastered? Of course. There are plenty of average teachers that produce poor students. (Knowledge is one thing, understanding is another) Jesus Christ would be our example of a true "master" as He "always did the will of the Father". Mastery of following The Teacher. Lofty thoughts to be sure but ones that could certainly require a lifetime of endeavor.
Point being - if the records of the N.T, are an indicator those who shed that "new light" for the first time were a serious, drop dead on a dime pursuers of what they believed. Again in 1 Cor.3 the people of God are described as a temple and that those who defile that temple are, in a word, SOL.
Anyone who aspires to "teach" or otherwise plant and tend, serve, labor and feed the ol' flock needs to have their hat on straight or they'll just screw up royally. The job is to work, hard and with respect for the Lord and true Shepherd of that flock. I would assume that violators can expect to get their as ses kicked sooner or later.
Human capacity is large but inconsistent at best. No one's perfect, we know that. But something I've written before and absolutely believe - people need to step carefully and deliberately into the House of God and deal gently with it's occupants and furnishings. Many jump at the chance to be tour guides but if you don't know the terrain it can be very dangerous for all. Absolute respect is required or the end result will be devastation. Someone might say I take it too seriously but I've been on both sides of the gate here and I know now the deep end of the pool requires serious effort and diligence.
"Mastery"?.....if I were in the ocean being swallowed by wave after wave....I'd definitely want a life guard heading for me who could swim like a fish and who knew the way home.
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Ham
Isn't the whole challenge, to master oneself?
it is a strange walk in life..
one walks down a place where two ways meet..
I liked a certain persons narrative they gave me about meeting a largely overgrown possom, or raccoon, or was it some other wild animal..
but what do you do when you meet yourself..
did da vicster master himself?
my initial thought here, is nooooo....
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