One last advertisement.

[geisha779]

These things will always come and always go and then there will be another one and another after that. Still, the records of the Bible memorialize what that first generation of "Christians" did and said. Inspiration to many - their actions must burn like salt in a cut to those who pursue it so hard, using so many words and so much time and money and yet never hit the mark. "Transformation" indeed.

"Silver and gold have I none but in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

Systematic teaching systems, reliant on outdated and unstable infrastructures and patented slogans promise big and deliver small. They gather the lame and issue canes and walkers.

In another record, perhaps as the "man born blind" answered when asked who did what to heal him and he finally said: one thing I know that whereas I was blind, now I see.

For all the promises and all the effort, few and far between are the students of these men who Live the Power. Talk the Power, sure. Talk is cheap.

Knowledge = power? Tell that to a man who couldn't even see who healed him or where he'd gone afterwards. His faith abounded following the reality of his deliverance. His "point of sales" was Jesus, not methodology or information.

At this stage of my life and what I see of this age, it's very simple. The world needs less speak and more do. Don't tell me what God can do if I believe - show me what God can do when you believe. Or shut up and find a seat.

I love this! Thanks! Maybe just your words....but they speak volumes.

You also said "It may be a deliberate desire to use coded shorthand to initiate a desired response from those who heard it so many times over the years and who would now have those brain cells pinged by the familiar terminology, or just a general tendency to continue doing the familiar."

I thought the same, but the response it generates in me is.....nausea....honest to goodness....it makes me sick to my stomach.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is just plain unnerving for me to even consider following that same path again....or that shallow system which to ME is a mixture of denial, rebellion and making the scriptures sing off key .

It is a really scary thought though....getting sucked into that abyss again. I am STILL climbing out.

I thought the letter was a joke. Someone kidding around. Shows you how far removed I am from that reality. Really? It is still going on? Wow.

[skyrider]

In 2003, 2004........JAL was still trying to sign up people for Momentus.

Is sales promotion addictive? If it ain't pfal, ces, momentus, sat testing, etc.....JAL just can't seem to resist being a constant prickster and promotion-ater.

One of my friends phoned me about JAL's persistence to sign him up. At the time, I told my friend to adamantly refuse and tell JAL to back off.

[Dot Matrix]

"At this stage of my life and what I see of this age, it's very simple. The world needs less speak and more do. Don't tell me what God can do if I believe - show me what God can do when you believe. Or shut up and find a seat. "

Thanks Socks!

[Ham]

why one last advertisement..

maybe it's "thank gawd, I outlived Grease spot.."

"I live to inherit.."

what?

what do you inherit?

Looks like a pretty bare landscape, if you ask me..

[mstar1]

show me what God can do when you believe.

We saw.

The all powerful post and run.

You too can have this power.

[WordWolf]

Jeremiah 13:23 (NASB)

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Did he not think his "letter" would disappear in the shout box rather quickly? Or did he know someone play into his evil plan and post it? ;)

Is that what you mean by "deniability"?

Exactly what I meant by "deniability."

Plus, his standard "post and run" strategy, rather than actually INTERACTING with the people

and risking sounding like a peer and equal.

(Or, in this case, an inferior, a chronic remedial student who never learns.)

He can post and run, and congratulate himself on what he redefines as a "victory."

Sad. The guys a one trick pony forever looping back to the same bull.

CES crashed so now we'll do something else. And this time it will be the Word of God, I promise, I promise.

Somebody should ask him how long he intends on beating a dead horse.

Too many people have figured out what its really all about to be suckered again.

I feel for the people who haven't figured out what its all about.

SoCrates

There's fewer of them every year.

Rather than being PEOPLE, they're seen more as COMMODITIES, as REVENUE SOURCES and, at best, CONSUMERS

rather than someone to SERVE. After all, JESUS said those in authority will SERVE, but JAL and the

vpw-trained twits all seek to BE served.

[WordWolf]

Perhaps it's a fitting swan song as GS transitions over these weeks, that the same tunes come back again. And again.

I think of myself as a somewhat thoughtful student of the Bible and rather passionate follower of Jesus Christ, who I continue to learn about everyday. Yet, I can't deny that statements like:

...hearing the Word of God as it not been heard since the first century....

illustrate a disconnect from true understanding of what occurred then and what's occurred in the 2,000 or so years since then. Not because of what is or isn't in PFAL or anywhere else but simply because anything scripted and canned in a class has no resemblance to what anyone heard of the Word of God in or about the time of the first century.

It may be a deliberate desire to use coded shorthand to initiate a desired response from those who heard it so many times over the years and who would now have those brain cells pinged by the familiar terminology, or just a general tendency to continue doing the familiar. But I find it very telling. And I would wonder - if it's that good, why reinvent it? And how much will this one cost? I assume a percentage of the income will be returned to the Way who still own the original, from whence these rivers run. It would be the only honest thing to do, if money's involved.

Bravo!

[skyrider]

For all the promises and all the effort, few and far between are the students of these men who Live the Power. Talk the Power, sure. Talk is cheap.

Knowledge = power? Tell that to a man who couldn't even see who healed him or where he'd gone afterwards. His faith abounded following the reality of his deliverance. His "point of sales" was Jesus, not methodology or information.

At this stage of my life and what I see of this age, it's very simple. The world needs less speak and more do. Don't tell me what God can do if I believe - show me what God can do when you believe. Or shut up and find a seat.

Absolutely.

From where I sit.....everything taught in twi/offshoots is suspect and based on the model of "prosperity believing." And, in retrosect of how petty and insignificant, to set the foundation of believing on this woman finding and rejoicing over her 10-pieces of silver thingy. What adolescent gerrymandering to set a foundation for believing!

Might I suggest.........Read Hebrews 11 to more fully see those who walked by faith.

[geisha779]

I apologize in advance....and add a warning that this may cause some people flashbacks....but, I did think it was interesting in a creepy kind of way.

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[GrouchoMarxJr]

I apologize in advance....

Apology accepted...

After listening to this antiquated buffoon, I can only say...same old crappola...

I would like to comment on a statement that Lynn made...referring to Jesus Christ, Lynn claims..."The only way to know him is by coming to the book (bible)"...Think about that for a minute...That's like saying...The only way to know Karl Kohler is by reading his book, the cult that snapped. Actually, the only way to know Karl is by having personal contact with him where you speak and he speaks...and you interact with each other. If lynn really believes that Christ is alive, why does he tell you the ONLY way to know him is through a book?...especially a book that produces a paycheck for him when you, as he says, "check it out"...

This is the same old bait and switch game that Wierwille played...Is Lynn shameless or is he really a victim of his own bulls*t?

Edited January 10, 2011 by GrouchoMarxJr

[socks]

geisha, thank you.

This characterizes some basic problem areas.

"...if it makes sense...." .... then watch some more and cheggidout.

The mention of Jesus Christ's resurrection and ascension would, I assume, peg a viewer's "makes sense" meter.

Now I do believe in the resurrection, for many reasons - but it doesn't make sense, didn't to His followers and was only a matter of "sense" AFTER it happened and they saw him, felt, touched and carried on conversations with him. And Jesus even recognized those who would in the future believe - without seeing.

VPW's method of teaching a class on How with a capital H was to say - resurrection? I can tell you exACTly how it happened, ready?......

God did it!

And God did, but we already knew that. So the makes sense kind of approach so common to churches and ministries who want to reach the masses is b-s. IMO. The man behind the curtain has no magic that will make it make sense. (Gene Scott of L.A. did a great Resurrrection series that would pulverize anything that's come out of TWI or it's splint-offs, with air to spare. He was kind of a goose too, but if you're going to watch weirdness, he's off the chart on capturing the logic and reasoning as to the resurrection).

A lot of the important stuff in Christianity doesn't "Make Sense", regardless of the semantics we use to describe or define it.

Now if I'd been through the dream prophetess personal profit-see movement, I might have a different view of what "makes sense", I'll allow that. But lest anyone forget, there's some history with these guys that is worth considering before buying anything.

John's approach degrades the whole deal in order to make it entertaining and exciting. That video is not, like, all that entertaining.

I guess for some people yes, far be it from me to assume there are people who won't just giggle their panties off at this but I also have to be honest and say those same people should get out more cuz John sounds scripted, stilted and unsure of exactly what's coming next.

I like John. He's intelligent and thoughtful. I don't agree with all his theology but that doesn't make him a bad person, nor I. We probably agree on more than we disagree.

But this whole cheeze-whiz approach doesn't really sound all that entertaining. Or exciting. And it really isn't teaching like it's not been taught since-when. So I'm confused, but the paying fans will likely get their red meat from this.

[geisha779]

Yeah...I wondered about some things listening to that clip too.....like, if the book is the only way to know Jesus....someone should tell those Christians in prison without the scriptures to read....to give it up and repudiate Jesus because they don't have the book and apparently the Lord has left them high and dry. Sometimes, that is all it takes to get sprung from a prison in this world. Recant your faith and convert. I have written to a few of these prisoners and their faith.....puts me to shame. I stub my toe and question God....they are often starved and beaten and they stand firm in a knowledge of the Lord....without the book.

The HS has no way to work within someone's heart and life without the book? The people who share one tattered bible between several villages and may get to read it once or twice a year.....the ones who risk their lives to be Christian(Yeah it happens) I guess the Lord says...you don't have the book....shoo...go away....you can't know me?

I think the round about point was........God is very limited without JAL to expound on the book.

When JAL encouraged people to check out the videos....I really thought he was going to say (Like most others I hear) check it out.....don't take my word for it...make sure I am telling you the truth......but no, it was check out and listen to the flood of things I plan on putting all over the internet. Yuck.

The other thing I wondered about was the cadence of his voice. Is that a TWI thing? At one point, did they get us all together and teach that odd inflection? Did I miss a meeting? It really started to grate and that was a short clip.

Really, if Jesus came up and tapped JAL on the shoulder and introduced Himself....I don't think JAL would believe Him. He might try and get Jesus to listen to a youtube video or sign up for a class.....but know who He is? I really have my doubts.

[Dot Matrix]

Geisha:

It was creepy. But I got to tell you the more I have looked at any “church” organization ~ the more I see crap given by all of it/them.… We have got to get to a point, IMHO, where we understand WE are the church. Not buildings not organizations, not the ordained and the adored. But everyday people as we hold forth “God” as we love him and love his people…

Church is big business.

There are some people who truly do try to “do it right” and I am not knocking their efforts. What I am knocking is “the business of church” “the God business” the making money off of selling people "a hope and a dream" which does not exist outside of the LOVE of God. “Follow me…” “Harken unto my words…” this crap….

When I think of the commandment, thou that shalt not use the Lord the God’s name in vain ~ this BIG church business is a violation of that commandment. For years people cheapened it to mean do not curse or say something as frivolous as “Oh my God!” But that makes no sense to me. God has a shot at giving us 10 commandments and among the towers in them are things like thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, and then this wimpy thing ~ oh and by the way, don’t ever just say, “oh my God.” Unless you mean it… What a wimpy meaning… You’d think God would list arson or something before a wimpy little declaration like that….

So, in giving a look at using his name in vain, what I saw was: using his name to lie, deceive, to bring people to “yourself” leaving people with “empty” in my name…

I think THIS is again that. But John is not alone. There are church buildings filled with carnival barkers offering the same “game.” It is rancid and it saddens me.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Dot Matrix

[geisha779]

Geisha:

It was creepy. But I got to tell you the more I have looked at any "church" organization ~ the more I see crap given by all of it/them.… We have got to get to a point, IMHO, where we understand WE are the church. Not buildings not organizations, not the ordained and the adored. But everyday people as we hold forth "God" as we love him and love his people…

Church is big business.

There are some people who truly do try to "do it right" and I am not knocking their efforts. What I am knocking is "the business of church" "the God business" the making money off of selling people "a hope and a dream" which does not exist outside of the LOVE of God. "Follow me…" "Harken unto my words…" this crap….

When I think of the commandment, thou that shalt not use the Lord the God's name in vain ~ this BIG church business is a violation of that commandment. For years people cheapened it to mean do not curse or say something as frivolous as "Oh my God!" But that makes no sense to me. God has a shot at giving us 10 commandments and among the towers in them are things like thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not kill, and then this wimpy thing ~ oh and by the way, don't ever just say, "oh my God." Unless you mean it… What a wimpy meaning… You'd think God would list arson or something before a wimpy little declaration like that….

So, in giving a look at using his name in vain, what I saw was: using his name to lie, deceive, to bring people to "yourself" leaving people with "empty" in my name…

I think THIS is again that. But John is not alone. There are church buildings filled with carnival barkers offering the same "game." It is rancid and it saddens me.

Hey my sweet sister who inherited all the nice genes. :) and the prettier ones!!

Yeah, I would avoid such a place and find a nice little church if that is what one is looking for. . . . . and it is not really hard to find a Christian who understands that we are the church(it is not secret knowledge).....not really a stretch to find a Christian church that is comprised of Christians. Even Mega churches just filled with Christians.

The Benny Hinns and Creflo Dollars of the world.....and definitely the entire TBN channel ....... are wolves easy to spot. (Of course, we have the edge) But, I have yet to meet a church going Christian who believes the building where they meet or the structure or organization they populate is the complete church. Especially since so many pray for the persecuted church and other churches around the world.

Who are these people who don't get it? Other than the obvious wolves .... who are the Pastors getting rich off their flock? Granted....I live in a rural area but I know most of the Pastors around here and not a one of them drives a Beamer.

Now, if the Lord refines by fire....and fails to produce His intended work within His people......He is ineffectual. The Lord is not ineffectual. The sparrow does not fall without Him knowing about it. But, not everyone who says they are Christian......is a Christian.

Do you honestly believe.....knowing all that you do about God......and placing all your faith in Him.......that one of His true servants would be using Him to make money? We serve from love, but also know enough about God not to dare do something like that....right?

Religion is a big business...no doubt. I agree. But a Christian church, filled with Christians......is not. There is a pretty good litmus test for us....and that is...who gets the glory. Maybe, that is why we hear so much from the wolves about themselves?

Jesus said He would build His church. I believe Him. I also believe that just because a group of Christians meet in a church and have some structure with an elder or some overseers.......Christians who organize.......it does not mean they don't understand who they are. Church is not the enemy, structure is not the enemy, and commitment to others within a church family is a good thing.

We can afford to be a little discerning before we start church bashing .....we may just be lumping a whole bunch of things together that don't really belong together and ourselves missing the real beauty of the church.

You know I think the world of you....so we can be honest and talk. You are one of the sweetest people around.

And I know you love the saints. Hugs!! :)

[Dot Matrix]

I appreciate your view....

"There are some people who truly do try to "do it right" and I am not knocking their efforts. What I am knocking is "the business of church" "the God business" the making money off of selling people "a hope and a dream" which does not exist outside of the LOVE of God. "Follow me…" "Harken unto my words…" this crap…. "

If someone is operating in the love of God ! Then, that is what it is all about...

Again, I am not knocking their efforts...

Edited January 12, 2011 by Dot Matrix

[Ham]

looks like *brother* john is experiencing a difficult regeneration.. maybe the sisterhood of karn can help..

[geisha779]

I appreciate your view....

If someone is operating in the love of God ! Then, that is what it is all about...

Again, I am not knocking their efforts...

Amen! Love to you!!

[So_crates]

Hmmm. Maybe he should try dancing like that guy in the Renewed Mind video.

SoCrates

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Hmmm. Maybe he should try dancing like that guy in the Renewed Mind video.

SoCrates

Hell, I'd send him a dollar if he did that...

[TheHighWay]

Holy crap... of all the people in the world to try to sell his garbage to, he markets his new way-spin-spin-spinoff to the very group of people who rejected the original in the first place?

What a dufus!!

JAL, I thought you were a pompous blow-hard when I was on campus, and that was when I believed in this stuff... now I just think you are terribly pathetic.

[justloafing]

I was 15th corps. JAL Michael Fart, Dave B*dard ruled Emporia with an iron fist. Very little love of God in that place at all as far as the leadership They seemed to get pleasure from ripping someone apart. I never understood that. Why now John, that you want to show "love"? Ohh I know why. The almighty dollar. I wonder what happens when you "sell out" now. It must be like twi and piffel. All nice and all then they swing the all mighty hammer. Corps lunches reminded me of Krustov talking to us then taking off his shoe and banging it on the lunch table saying "We will bury you" . Anyone considering JAL's new thing. DON'T

Edited January 19, 2011 by justloafing

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 1/7/2011 at 1:17 PM, WordWolf said:

Jeremiah 13:23 (NASB)

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

Seems JALvis could not resist the turn of the cycles to resist posting one more advertisement.

He posted it in the Shoutbox, possibly to increase his deniability.

(Previous times, he send mail to people he knew would post it to the GSC, and included a note saying

he was not trying to get it posted online but knew it would show up there somehow.

Other times, he deleted his own copies-until he realized other copies were already in existence

and the deletion of his own copy said a lot to the people who could no longer access it.)

So, the new advertisement, with its own level of "deniability." Man can't just speak plainly to us

if his own life depends on it. Here's what he posted, to be followed by my own thoughts.

==========================================

Dearest PFAL Grad,

I just heard the news about the GreaseSpot forums closing down soon, and thought I'd send out one last missive from my heart to anyone who wants to receive it.

It was 43 years ago last month (December), while I was a Lieutenant in the 82d Airborne Division at Ft. Bragg NC, that my college three-sport teammate told me that he had "some tapes" on the Bible. Having by then become fervent about knowing God, I said, "Cool, I'll drive to Ohio on my way home to Indiana for Christmas and we can listen to them."

When he opened the box of reel-to-reel discs on that Sunday morning in Cleveland, revealing 33 hours of tape, I said, "You said 'some tapes'!" And he said, "These are some tapes." And I said, "You're right; these are SOME TAPES! And when I get bored, I'm leaving for Indianapolis." Three days later I finished the PFAL class for the first time, and I was both stunned by how much error I had been taught about the Bible, and thrilled by the truth I heard in PFAL.

I long ago realized that PFAL was an historically unparalleled presentation of the truth of God's Word, and I will forever be grateful that I was in the right place at the right time to partake of it. And it was the keys set forth in that class that have enabled me, with a lot of help from my friends, to grow in both biblical knowledge and expression so as to be able to now present it in an even more accurate and expansive way. Of course, that is as it should be.

After helping to put together several such systematic courses of study in the last 24 years, I'm going to spearhead another, with a lot of help from my friends. Our goal is to film an accurate, entertaining, exciting, and effectual 24-hour foundational class, and we hope to do it about June 1. In case you are interested in obtaining a copy, my email address is jal@tltf.org.a

You may know that in January, 2010, about 30 of us started The Living Truth Fellowship, and each month via email (and hard mail for those w/o email) we send out a 3-4 page written teaching in our FRUIT OF D'VINE publication. We also have more than 125 teaching videos on our YouTube channel (justtruthit) and our Vimeo channel. You can find both of those on our website (www.tltf.org).

I have a deep affinity for every PFAL grad, as I firmly believe that we share the unique privilege of hearing the Word of God as it not been heard since the first century. I am still committed to presenting the Word in the best way possible, so if my life and ministry can bless yours, great, just let me know.

I love you.

Onward and upward!

John Lynn

No!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 1/9/2011 at 5:57 PM, potato said:

ugh.

John Lynn, I am completely, utterly, and committedly NOT INTERESTED in joining anything that idolizes vpw and his cobbled-together religion. twi fooled me. you do not.

Spud!!  Bingo!

[Grace Valerie Claire]

On 1/10/2011 at 4:05 PM, GrouchoMarxJr said:

Apology accepted...

After listening to this antiquated buffoon, I can only say...same old crappola...

I would like to comment on a statement that Lynn made...referring to Jesus Christ, Lynn claims..."The only way to know him is by coming to the book (bible)"...Think about that for a minute...That's like saying...The only way to know Karl Kohler is by reading his book, the cult that snapped. Actually, the only way to know Karl is by having personal contact with him where you speak and he speaks...and you interact with each other. If lynn really believes that Christ is alive, why does he tell you the ONLY way to know him is through a book?...especially a book that produces a paycheck for him when you, as he says, "check it out"...

This is the same old bait and switch game that Wierwille played...Is Lynn shameless or is he really a victim of his own bulls*t?

A victim of his own BS!

[WordWolf]

On 9/1/2011 at 3:56 AM, socks said:

Additional insight from former members of CES, trumpeting it's resounding success story for all the world to see is HERE> Or do a goggle search for Dan Tocchini and Momentus for further illumination. Advertiised as a "transformationalist" it's clear that these guys have left a trail that would make a snail blush, always moving on to the next field of gold to mine. Good intentions? Oh, no doubt.

I'm just sayin' - it's worth a look for anyone who hasn't.

Since that site's down, the curious can read the content that was archived, here:

http://wayback.archive.org/web/20140305053351/http://ex-ces.faithweb.com:80/index.html