Harold Camping....local to Northern California. He's had a radio broadcast for years on "Family Radio", which he's a founder of. I believe he preaches weekly in a church in Alameda, CA. or did at one time. He's known as "Brother Camping" to his followers as he (by his own claim) holds no official office or responsibility as a pastor, other than being the ultimate authority on what the bible both says and means I've gathered.
His broadcasts are generously called "The Open Forum". I've dialed him in at all hours of the night over the years. It'll keep you awake on a long drive and he's got some fairly odd interpretations of the bible, even by current standards. On the radio he literally drones - I'm being kind - when callers call in with their "questions" which he then answers as if on automatic. Typically he tells each caller at the end of the drone "But thank you for calling....and now can we take our next caller please...." and the show progresses.
It's advertised as a "forum" for discussion on "biblical issues" but he pretty much stomps all over anything any caller has to say and imposes his own interpretation of scripture as exactly what the bible says and can be pretty rough on anyone who disagrees. Occasionally someone does and he gets a third wind with "NO, NOOOO. That is not what God has to say, NO. That is not....", etc. etc.
Now, I don't agree or disagree with everything either he or the callers posit, but it's one of the longest running wheeze fests I've ever heard on radio, and since he's an owner and operator it's his show as long as he can stay on the air.
This is the second time he's seriously laid out his math on the return of Jesus Christ. The first time he admitted to being wrong which I assume wasn't that difficult . This time he figures to have it right and he's got a group (or the group's on their own account I suppose) traveling around the country in a bus spreading "the word" on May.
So that's what I think of him, not a whole lot. But I think that his dating approach will settle his argument once and for all. I've heard him go through it high level on the radio and it's about as reasonable as anything else I suppose. But I simply don't think the dating is held in the bible as he describes it, or that it is in fact datable from the biblical records. The Feasts are significant as he describes, the "holy days", I get that. Dating it - I don't believe that's the intent of scripture.
What I'd also add is that I don't actually dislike him for the way he does his show, although I think it borders on inhumane to call it a "bible forum" for discussion of anything other than what he chooses to talk about. He's boring yes, but fascinating in the way he applies his methodology so consistently.
He does not believe that,,,, "all men" are to be saved ,,,,actually means all. He believes that God has chosen some and not others. That people who would want to be saved, would hear the message of salvation and come to God through Christ...may not in fact ever "be saved" because God hasn't chosen or called them. Thus, people don't "choose" God, God chooses them and God by Camping's rendering doesn't choose everyone. Why? That's God's business. All any one person can do is try, hope, believe, live as they might best choose to but in the end only those who God has chosen will be "saved".
He dances around this at times but I had him dialed in one night where he took about 15 minutes explaining this, using various verses and moved around the bible quite a bit to document his stance. He made it absolutely clear to the caller that nothing they could or would do would have any impact on God's response to them, that God had already called those of His choosing from before "the foundations of the earth" so the deal was done, more or less mostly more.
Far be it from me to argue with God if that's the case, it wouldn't do much good anyway. But until I hear it directly that's not what I understand the Bible to say, if it's the reference.
Camping rivals me per cubic yard for air warmed, I'll say that. But I do wonder if many are convinced as he is of the date of the "Rapture".
Hopefully it's not the "Raptor" and he just mistranslated a greek word or something. That would be bad. (I'm reminded of movies like Aliens and Event Horizon where those pesky "distress" signals turn out to really be warnings, for some reason)
I guess come May 22 2011 we'll know if he really speaks for God, or not. Better have your car radio tuned, Socks. Not sure how you'll let us know - via Facebook/GSC page perhaps.
Me? I'll go when the good Lord tells me. Not when some self-appointed spokesman for God tells me.
One should consider if they are caught up into that spirit teaching, the date was set, as of 6/15/10, anyone caught up into that spirit stuff of the world and the Way, will not be gathered up? That life Yahweh has within himself, Yeshua now has that life within himself, at the gathering together, we are going to have that life in ourselves in some kind of flesh and bone body. Their is no spirit life, or spirit body, or spirit this or that!
These guys are one long "profanity alert" and not exactly Doctrinal Forum fodder but y'know - Tool - Maynard's a troubled soul but I get this tune, in spades. And Campy dude is as spooky as this animation video. The tune's got an off the chart drum rhythmic time signature morph around 2:50 at the middle of the tune that kinda says it all. While I don't take it the extreme - sometimes you gotta embrace the horror, stare it down and get on with a new day.
Just heard a news story about this on NPR's Weekend Edition. Besides the idiocy of trying to predict the Rapture, I don't get why people who claim to know the Bible that well confuse the Rapture and Judgement Day.
Didn't Paul write that we would be saved from wrath by being gathered together? Anyway, I guess this is just another example of why we shouldn't take any of these verses too seriously. I believe the NT writers all expected Jesus to return in their lifetimes. Some verses are quite explicit in communicating that expectation..and therefore, obviously as wrong as Camping's prediction that Christ would return in 1994.
• Paul for example told the Corinthian Church not to make any serious judgments until Christ came back. (I Cor 4:5)
• Revelation 1:5 says that his return would be witnessed by they who crucified him. Too late, they're all long dead.
• Almost every Evangelical preacher says that they will do this and that, "if the Lord tarries". Hebrews 10:37 plainly says that he "will not tarry".
• The oddest eschatological statement in the New Testament is, imho, Matthew 10:23 which seems to say that Jesus prophesied that the Son of Man would come before his disciples finished their mission to the cities of Israel.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
What the heck is that supposed to mean? I researched this verse fairly thoroughly when I was studying this (back around 2003) and I couldn't find anyone who could explain it.
If anyone cares to read my ramblings about this, I have a pseudo essay online about it that covers just about the entire New Testament starting with the writings of the Apostles and ending with the four gospels.
Pretty impressive piece of work, Jerry. I, obviously, haven't had time to read it yet in any sort of detailed fashion. This caught my eye, though...."If the Bible’s promise of Christ’s return is utterly false and Jesus never comes back, we will still have had the precious experience of receiving salvation, walking by the spirit, ministering the grace of God to others, and being drawn into an intimate relationship with the Creator of the Universe. That’s more than enough for me.".... I think this is partly what I was alluding to in the Batteries not included thread. In that thread I posed the question, "What if everything about Christianity remained the same but eternal life wasn't part of the whole package? How would that change your opinion of (or involvement with) Christianity?" I asked that question of someone I know who was once in a cult that was similar to The Way. The answer I got shocked me. She said if she thought that was true she would just kill herself then and there. That really took me back. What about "today", the "here and now", living each day like it might be your last? All I can really do, personally, is try to follow The Golden Rule as best I can. If that's not good enough, the burden will be mine alone to bare.
I'm glad we see it the same way. I think cultivating the love of God in one's life is worth the sacrifices we make in His name. I'd rather be a basically decent person who lives for 60 years or so than an abject foot taking advantage of the world and other people all my life. I have to believe people who live like that are miserable on the inside.
Jbarrax, I've read your online work. Nicely done. Won't posit my position but I agree wholeheartedly that the Bible as a whole doesn't fall to pieces as they say, by looking at what were once called apparent contradictions but actually hop scotched around - let it speak for itself. Right or wrong it can't be what it is if I make it what I think it needs to be. I agree that many of the sections you cover are typically squeezed and juggled to be consistent with others, when they're not.
Camping - often referred to as "well meaning" and "decent" but deluded. He clearly is not nice to those who choose to see him as a person of authority for rendering the Bible's teachings and building actions on them. Well meaning? I dunno - I think he's driven by unbridled ego and pride. Personal pride in one's work, in the things we appreciate - I get that. He's a jerk, to put it mildly. He pushes people so hard, insisting that he is right and others are wrong. So now he's wrong. What's his response going to be - this time?
Communication technology has allowed for him to be a global story - without technology to expand his reach 99.99 % of those who know about him today wouldn't, buses and billboards notwithstanding. He's used it consistently. And he's got $ coming in to promote his swill, week after week.
"Buyer beware" is still the order of the day.
He's such a blow hard on the radio about not only this but anything else he thinks he knows that it will be interesting to hear his response, if any. But it's kind of like slowing down to see a train wreck, so I probably won't, it's too grim a reality - but still a lesson.
....If anyone cares to read my ramblings about this, I have a pseudo essay online about it that covers just about the entire New Testament starting with the writings of the Apostles and ending with the four gospels.
This is truly masterful! As a history buff I have done personal research projects myself, so I know the effort that must have been involved here. Fantastic! Just fantastic! I agree with your conclusion. I remember when I took the Foundational Class in TWI. The pseudoscience and so-called Biblical analysis bored me to tears. The whole premise was that they had to prove that each and every word of the Bible is absolute truth, because "if one word is wrong, you can't believe anything". I disagree with them. Personally, I don't care if there was "another Earth created between the first and second verses" of Genesis. I don't care how many thieves hung beside Jesus. For me, this has little to do with the message.
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waysider
So much for the old "thief in the night" thing....
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Jbarrax
Who's Harold Camping?
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socks
Harold Camping....local to Northern California. He's had a radio broadcast for years on "Family Radio", which he's a founder of. I believe he preaches weekly in a church in Alameda, CA. or did at one time. He's known as "Brother Camping" to his followers as he (by his own claim) holds no official office or responsibility as a pastor, other than being the ultimate authority on what the bible both says and means I've gathered.
His broadcasts are generously called "The Open Forum". I've dialed him in at all hours of the night over the years. It'll keep you awake on a long drive and he's got some fairly odd interpretations of the bible, even by current standards. On the radio he literally drones - I'm being kind - when callers call in with their "questions" which he then answers as if on automatic. Typically he tells each caller at the end of the drone "But thank you for calling....and now can we take our next caller please...." and the show progresses.
It's advertised as a "forum" for discussion on "biblical issues" but he pretty much stomps all over anything any caller has to say and imposes his own interpretation of scripture as exactly what the bible says and can be pretty rough on anyone who disagrees. Occasionally someone does and he gets a third wind with "NO, NOOOO. That is not what God has to say, NO. That is not....", etc. etc.
Now, I don't agree or disagree with everything either he or the callers posit, but it's one of the longest running wheeze fests I've ever heard on radio, and since he's an owner and operator it's his show as long as he can stay on the air.
This is the second time he's seriously laid out his math on the return of Jesus Christ. The first time he admitted to being wrong which I assume wasn't that difficult . This time he figures to have it right and he's got a group (or the group's on their own account I suppose) traveling around the country in a bus spreading "the word" on May.
So that's what I think of him, not a whole lot. But I think that his dating approach will settle his argument once and for all. I've heard him go through it high level on the radio and it's about as reasonable as anything else I suppose. But I simply don't think the dating is held in the bible as he describes it, or that it is in fact datable from the biblical records. The Feasts are significant as he describes, the "holy days", I get that. Dating it - I don't believe that's the intent of scripture.
But I've been wrong before....
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socks
What I'd also add is that I don't actually dislike him for the way he does his show, although I think it borders on inhumane to call it a "bible forum" for discussion of anything other than what he chooses to talk about. He's boring yes, but fascinating in the way he applies his methodology so consistently.
He does not believe that,,,, "all men" are to be saved ,,,,actually means all. He believes that God has chosen some and not others. That people who would want to be saved, would hear the message of salvation and come to God through Christ...may not in fact ever "be saved" because God hasn't chosen or called them. Thus, people don't "choose" God, God chooses them and God by Camping's rendering doesn't choose everyone. Why? That's God's business. All any one person can do is try, hope, believe, live as they might best choose to but in the end only those who God has chosen will be "saved".
He dances around this at times but I had him dialed in one night where he took about 15 minutes explaining this, using various verses and moved around the bible quite a bit to document his stance. He made it absolutely clear to the caller that nothing they could or would do would have any impact on God's response to them, that God had already called those of His choosing from before "the foundations of the earth" so the deal was done, more or less mostly more.
Far be it from me to argue with God if that's the case, it wouldn't do much good anyway. But until I hear it directly that's not what I understand the Bible to say, if it's the reference.
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Ham
God bless you friend Socks..
is that supposed to be a compliment?
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Ham
if I could only afford your space to rent..
"I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.."
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socks
I am but a reed in the wind...
Camping rivals me per cubic yard for air warmed, I'll say that. But I do wonder if many are convinced as he is of the date of the "Rapture".
Hopefully it's not the "Raptor" and he just mistranslated a greek word or something. That would be bad. (I'm reminded of movies like Aliens and Event Horizon where those pesky "distress" signals turn out to really be warnings, for some reason)
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mstar1
I guess I better hurry and sneak in that trip to Graceland
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
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Twinky
I guess come May 22 2011 we'll know if he really speaks for God, or not. Better have your car radio tuned, Socks. Not sure how you'll let us know - via Facebook/GSC page perhaps.
Me? I'll go when the good Lord tells me. Not when some self-appointed spokesman for God tells me.
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teachmevp
One should consider if they are caught up into that spirit teaching, the date was set, as of 6/15/10, anyone caught up into that spirit stuff of the world and the Way, will not be gathered up? That life Yahweh has within himself, Yeshua now has that life within himself, at the gathering together, we are going to have that life in ourselves in some kind of flesh and bone body. Their is no spirit life, or spirit body, or spirit this or that!
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geisha779
I thought the end was Dec 21, 2012? There is a movie and everything.....
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Ham
I dunno. Looking at the picture of the guy.. and even foregoing the video..
how can you take a fellow with no real eyebrows seriously??
I mean really..
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Twinky
I think Year2027 might have a different opinion too. Roy thinks that JC is coming back in 2027.
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waysider
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socks
A classic, waysider.
<br><br>
These guys are one long "profanity alert" and not exactly Doctrinal Forum fodder but y'know - Tool - Maynard's a troubled soul but I get this tune, in spades. And Campy dude is as spooky as this animation video. The tune's got an off the chart drum rhythmic time signature morph around 2:50 at the middle of the tune that kinda says it all. While I don't take it the extreme - sometimes you gotta embrace the horror, stare it down and get on with a new day.
<br><br>
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/h_Xsd_aCVNs?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Jbarrax
Just heard a news story about this on NPR's Weekend Edition. Besides the idiocy of trying to predict the Rapture, I don't get why people who claim to know the Bible that well confuse the Rapture and Judgement Day.
Didn't Paul write that we would be saved from wrath by being gathered together? Anyway, I guess this is just another example of why we shouldn't take any of these verses too seriously. I believe the NT writers all expected Jesus to return in their lifetimes. Some verses are quite explicit in communicating that expectation..and therefore, obviously as wrong as Camping's prediction that Christ would return in 1994.
• Paul for example told the Corinthian Church not to make any serious judgments until Christ came back. (I Cor 4:5)
• Revelation 1:5 says that his return would be witnessed by they who crucified him. Too late, they're all long dead.
• Almost every Evangelical preacher says that they will do this and that, "if the Lord tarries". Hebrews 10:37 plainly says that he "will not tarry".
• The oddest eschatological statement in the New Testament is, imho, Matthew 10:23 which seems to say that Jesus prophesied that the Son of Man would come before his disciples finished their mission to the cities of Israel.
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
What the heck is that supposed to mean? I researched this verse fairly thoroughly when I was studying this (back around 2003) and I couldn't find anyone who could explain it.
If anyone cares to read my ramblings about this, I have a pseudo essay online about it that covers just about the entire New Testament starting with the writings of the Apostles and ending with the four gospels.
False Hope
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waysider
Pretty impressive piece of work, Jerry. I, obviously, haven't had time to read it yet in any sort of detailed fashion. This caught my eye, though...."If the Bible’s promise of Christ’s return is utterly false and Jesus never comes back, we will still have had the precious experience of receiving salvation, walking by the spirit, ministering the grace of God to others, and being drawn into an intimate relationship with the Creator of the Universe. That’s more than enough for me.".... I think this is partly what I was alluding to in the Batteries not included thread. In that thread I posed the question, "What if everything about Christianity remained the same but eternal life wasn't part of the whole package? How would that change your opinion of (or involvement with) Christianity?" I asked that question of someone I know who was once in a cult that was similar to The Way. The answer I got shocked me. She said if she thought that was true she would just kill herself then and there. That really took me back. What about "today", the "here and now", living each day like it might be your last? All I can really do, personally, is try to follow The Golden Rule as best I can. If that's not good enough, the burden will be mine alone to bare.
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Jbarrax
Thanks Waysider. :-)
I'm glad we see it the same way. I think cultivating the love of God in one's life is worth the sacrifices we make in His name. I'd rather be a basically decent person who lives for 60 years or so than an abject foot taking advantage of the world and other people all my life. I have to believe people who live like that are miserable on the inside.
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teachmevp
No gathering for that logos, three-in-one junk?
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socks
And so it went.
Jbarrax, I've read your online work. Nicely done. Won't posit my position but I agree wholeheartedly that the Bible as a whole doesn't fall to pieces as they say, by looking at what were once called apparent contradictions but actually hop scotched around - let it speak for itself. Right or wrong it can't be what it is if I make it what I think it needs to be. I agree that many of the sections you cover are typically squeezed and juggled to be consistent with others, when they're not.
Camping - often referred to as "well meaning" and "decent" but deluded. He clearly is not nice to those who choose to see him as a person of authority for rendering the Bible's teachings and building actions on them. Well meaning? I dunno - I think he's driven by unbridled ego and pride. Personal pride in one's work, in the things we appreciate - I get that. He's a jerk, to put it mildly. He pushes people so hard, insisting that he is right and others are wrong. So now he's wrong. What's his response going to be - this time?
Communication technology has allowed for him to be a global story - without technology to expand his reach 99.99 % of those who know about him today wouldn't, buses and billboards notwithstanding. He's used it consistently. And he's got $ coming in to promote his swill, week after week.
"Buyer beware" is still the order of the day.
He's such a blow hard on the radio about not only this but anything else he thinks he knows that it will be interesting to hear his response, if any. But it's kind of like slowing down to see a train wreck, so I probably won't, it's too grim a reality - but still a lesson.
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DocHoliday
This is truly masterful! As a history buff I have done personal research projects myself, so I know the effort that must have been involved here. Fantastic! Just fantastic! I agree with your conclusion. I remember when I took the Foundational Class in TWI. The pseudoscience and so-called Biblical analysis bored me to tears. The whole premise was that they had to prove that each and every word of the Bible is absolute truth, because "if one word is wrong, you can't believe anything". I disagree with them. Personally, I don't care if there was "another Earth created between the first and second verses" of Genesis. I don't care how many thieves hung beside Jesus. For me, this has little to do with the message.
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Ham
The end is always near.
Or is it a new beginning..
kinda like my big wager here.. I'm fully committed to the concept of some kind of rebuild..
if it doesn't pan out, I'll be sorting through junk for the rest of my terrestrial existence..
there are worse things..
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DocHoliday
"If California falls into the ocean
like the mystics and statistics say it will
I believe this hotel will be standing
until I pay my bill..."
- Warren Zevon
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Twinky
Well now Camping is reported to have "made a mistake" and the date is 21 October.
Actually he always said that something is happening in October - after the event of 12 May had taken place.
False prophets...be not afraid of them.
Be not afraid of laughing stocks, either.
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