...could we as humans be as fallible as a race; or are their powerful hidden forces that control and manipulate giving such great power to men to control the masses?
I hate the word "witchcraft" as used in this context. It has such a negative-female image when used by other religious groups other than the ones that practice it (Wicca)... I'm with Bramble on this one, although I am not Wiccan. (I do have some heavy Pagan leanings, though... Trying to pin down my religious beliefs is also like herding cats.)
TWI used the word "witch" to brand any female (and sometimes male) who was not falling into line to their liking... Rebellion is as the SIN of WITCHCRAFT, don't you know? My mom had that line used on her, and I was accused of it myself. It's a label used often by fundamentalist groups to strike fear into their followers.
I believe in many supernatural forces at work in the world, demons included, but to call it all "witchcraft" seems silly.
I would think the real place to actually look and find those who desire to control and manipulate other people is in groups with authority structures that involve obedience of the people to the authority figure.
You can call it 'witchcraft' but it might be more appropriate to call it what it is, church hierarchy.
I hate the word "witchcraft" as used in this context. It has such a negative-female image when used by other religious groups other than the ones that practice it (Wicca)... I'm with Bramble on this one, although I am not Wiccan. (I do have some heavy Pagan leanings, though... Trying to pin down my religious beliefs is also like herding cats.)
TWI used the word "witch" to brand any female (and sometimes male) who was not falling into line to their liking... Rebellion is as the SIN of WITCHCRAFT, don't you know? My mom had that line used on her, and I was accused of it myself. It's a label used often by fundamentalist groups to strike fear into their followers.
I believe in many supernatural forces at work in the world, demons included, but to call it all "witchcraft" seems silly.
Thats the reason I used the term occult in one of my other threads. I shied away from terms like witchcraft and magick, though they ae terms that best described what I ment. What would be the best way of expressing this?
I bet you're one of those math teachers that when a student asks a question you answer it by writing another problem on the blackboard and then go, "it's simple! if f(x)=a2 x the square root of a hyptenuse triangle, then it only makes sense that the ratio of a titrated blueberry muffin would be positively charged and stand alone in an inverted fraction whereof all the sides have no equillibrium."
Thats the reason I used the term occult in one of my other threads. I shied away from terms like witchcraft and magick, though they ae terms that best described what I ment. What would be the best way of expressing this?
SoCrates
I want to make sure I understand what it is you are trying to describe - is it the action of trying to control someone, or is it the action of using supernatural means to do so?
I want to make sure I understand what it is you are trying to describe - is it the action of trying to control someone, or is it the action of using supernatural means to do so?
Both. The thread was inquiring into if anyone noticed anything occult going on in the upper structure of the ministry. But later I also questioned how what was going on could be kept secret. I mean, look at the Clinton-Monica Lewinski scandal or the Clarence Thomas scandal. Not forgetting David Koresh or the recent mormon cult. All these things found the light of day, but somehow da vey managed a supernatural silence over what was going on with werewolf and the craigmiester.
SoCrates
HA!!!! You just earned 42 points for that answer! The anwwer is always 42.
The answer to life, the universe and everything. Now to figure out the question.
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft ... says the Bible.
A favorite accusation of TWI is to accuse others of rebellion, which is "as the sin of witchcraft" - said darkly and having taught us that witches should be put to death.
"Watch out, then, or you become even more worthy of death!" goes the hidden agenda.
At no time did I ever hear an explanation of what "witchcraft" was - there was, of course, the "junk table" at the adv class, which we were not encouraged to look at.
That's some modern form of witchcraft...but what about its usage at the time? Can we guess at that? And this from a ministry that was into "use in its context." Did TWI define this term? No way! What did the context mean, then? Perhaps what was happening at the time of Moses when he challenged Pharaoh? Or the witches whom Saul sought advice from?
But what did TWI mean, conjuring tricks? Another of their stock accusations was, "You are not meek enough!"
Rebellion was also seen as lack of meekness. Even something as simple as suggesting a better way to do something, when one had expertise in that area yet faced with a "leader" or "coordinator" who didn't have expertise.
Therefore, perhaps, witchcraft is lack of meekness...retaining one's critical thinking...one's integrity.
And, thereby, refusing to submit to the overall control of TWI and its thought police. Refusing to submit to the ultimate controllers - the ultimate "witches" as defined within this thread.
And here I thought that Jesus died to set us free - from the control of adversaries. Silly me.
I heard a teaching once by werewolf where he explained the "witchcraft" word in the Spiit of the Flesh passage in Romans. According to him, the Greek word was pharmakea (sp? Its all Greek to me), which he linked to drug use, because according to him, many forms of witchcraft involved drugs.
I heard a teaching once by werewolf where he explained the "witchcraft" word in the Spiit of the Flesh passage in Romans. According to him, the Greek word was pharmakea (sp? Its all Greek to me), which he linked to drug use, because according to him, many forms of witchcraft involved drugs.
SoCrates
I've tried to look up some info on that, but haven't found much.
Some of the uses of that Greek word in literature do not carry a negative connotation, i.e., "Remedy,cure". So there must be a positive aspect. Interesting.
Some have mentioned the number 42 earlier. Couldn't the answer also be "420", esp. in this context, yanowutimeen?
Some of the uses of that Greek word in literature do not carry a negative connotation, i.e., "Remedy,cure". So there must be a positive aspect. Interesting.
Some have mentioned the number 42 earlier. Couldn't the answer also be "420", esp. in this context, yanowutimeen?
Is it possible that the word should have just been translated as "drug use"?
Don't know. At this point in time I'm leery (not timothy leary)of anything the ministry told me. However, according to them pharmakea is the same root we get pharmacy from.
Witchcraft has just too many weird things about it, spooky stuff that's way too freaky for the normal person, IMO.
Ceremonies are often held in dark, dimly lit locations, with all kinds of candles and special urns and mystical looking paraphernalia involved, crosses and icons all over the place. Incense burns heavily at some of these events, giving them a foggy smokey look.
There's all kinds of secret practices and ceremonies too, that you can't participate in if you're not one of "them". Invocations and rituals abound, using ancient languages that are memorized and repeated slavishly by those who attend. Some of these are even held at midnight, after everyone else is normally asleep.
The priests and priestesses always wear long robes and sashes and often wear caps that seem to hide their faces. Black is the color of choice and red - blood red. They all bow and kneel when one of the members of the higher orders is present, even kissing their hands or rings. Young boys, dressed in white gowns, silently assist with various details of their services after receiving special training in their practices.
Although there are separate covens in nearly every town and city they all answer to a single authority in Europe where their leader lives in unmatched opulence in a palace with it's own name - "The Vatican". Leaders meet there every year to....
Oh wait.
Wrong one. My mistake.
The yellow jester does not play
But gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king.
very good observation, friend..
I dunno. It's not just *them*.. its us as well..
they haven't approached me with secret ceremonies and such at the university here..
but there are some who won't admit they are in the Doctorate program.. they keep it a secret..
I heard a teaching once by werewolf where he explained the "witchcraft" word in the Spiit of the Flesh passage in Romans. According to him, the Greek word was pharmakea (sp? Its all Greek to me), which he linked to drug use, because according to him, many forms of witchcraft involved drugs.
SoCrates
That was taken from the Companion Bible and I think it was from a passage in Galatians. The works of the flesh and witchcraft is listed.
It was the word sorcery, Gal. 5:20 defined as magical incantation by means of drugs
"I dunno. It's not just *them*.. its us as well.."
One man's ceiling is another man's sky, if you know what I mean.
Anything done more than once, well say within a frame of reference that requires it to be done more than once, as in where an observed cause and effect would lead one towards an expected response, can become a ritual of sorts and will start to carry meaning and significance around the performance of the act or the uh, thing. Being done. Without real consideration of the relationship between the action and the outcome other than it feels right or good or seems to "work" the same way or in an expected way each time.
All the stuff about watching one's favorite team and doing things the same way, wearing a hat that you wore every game where the team won, or stirring your nacho's 3 tiems before each play because they swished a basket when you did that - twice! and each time you stirred! and belched once so you want to do that now, that kind of thing.
We are creatures of habit, we'd go nuts if we weren't and where there's constant reinvention you get a lot of wasted effort if you're only getting the same results each time or can't even measure the results.
The measure of success people often end up going by is the way they feel when they perform the ritual. It can be soothing or just comfortable.
Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that the actions performed have any relationship to what the action was originally intended to produce. A lot of stuff is just habit and cultural glue or as the artist Don Van Vliet once said "it gets him dressed in the morning".
I've come to focus on the intent of the person doing the action and what they're trying to accomplish. For all the good Christians talk about, or Wiccans or Pagans or Witches or Don'BelieveNuttin's - theres a lot of greedy, selfish, meaner 'n' snot people of all stripe. (I should also add good ones too).
Seeing a thing for what it is - without imposing anything on it other than the immediate perception of what it actually is - can be difficult to do but not impossible, and can be learned. I'm sure many around here do that. Doing that I believe allows for the characteristics and textures of something to reveal themselves for what they really are.
Naturally that requires some form of receptor and therein is life's wonderful work, to me.
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Keith
Recently I listened to a series of teaching by Derek Prince on Demons and deliverance. (Yes, I still believe in the and that they are active) One thing I found interesting that he kept coming back t
WordWolf
This is a very interesting thought. I'll have to look this speaker up a bit.
socks
Witchcraft has just too many weird things about it, spooky stuff that's way too freaky for the normal person, IMO. Ceremonies are often held in dark, dimly lit locations, with all kinds of candles a
Broken Arrow
The answer is...both.
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JavaJane
I second what Broken Arrow just said...
I hate the word "witchcraft" as used in this context. It has such a negative-female image when used by other religious groups other than the ones that practice it (Wicca)... I'm with Bramble on this one, although I am not Wiccan. (I do have some heavy Pagan leanings, though... Trying to pin down my religious beliefs is also like herding cats.)
TWI used the word "witch" to brand any female (and sometimes male) who was not falling into line to their liking... Rebellion is as the SIN of WITCHCRAFT, don't you know? My mom had that line used on her, and I was accused of it myself. It's a label used often by fundamentalist groups to strike fear into their followers.
I believe in many supernatural forces at work in the world, demons included, but to call it all "witchcraft" seems silly.
But that's just my take.
(I'll get you, my pretty!!!)
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Bramble
I would think the real place to actually look and find those who desire to control and manipulate other people is in groups with authority structures that involve obedience of the people to the authority figure.
You can call it 'witchcraft' but it might be more appropriate to call it what it is, church hierarchy.
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JavaJane
Amen, sister...
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So_crates
Thats the reason I used the term occult in one of my other threads. I shied away from terms like witchcraft and magick, though they ae terms that best described what I ment. What would be the best way of expressing this?
SoCrates
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So_crates
The answer is 42.
SoCrates
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JavaJane
I want to make sure I understand what it is you are trying to describe - is it the action of trying to control someone, or is it the action of using supernatural means to do so?
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JavaJane
HA!!!! You just earned 42 points for that answer! The anwwer is always 42.
And after some thought, I think "black magic" might be an appropriate term.
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So_crates
Both. The thread was inquiring into if anyone noticed anything occult going on in the upper structure of the ministry. But later I also questioned how what was going on could be kept secret. I mean, look at the Clinton-Monica Lewinski scandal or the Clarence Thomas scandal. Not forgetting David Koresh or the recent mormon cult. All these things found the light of day, but somehow da vey managed a supernatural silence over what was going on with werewolf and the craigmiester.
SoCrates
The answer to life, the universe and everything. Now to figure out the question.
SoCrates
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WordWolf
That which is "hidden" is "occulted." "Occult" knowledge is secret, hidden knowledge only trusted
to the initiated. In that respect, twi was an "occult" organization.
The concept of "witchcraft" is that of performing something to affect the movement of reality-
whether that is for good, evil, or neither. It is attempting to bend the universe in conformity
to your will. (If you don't believe me, Crowley said the same thing, and he certainly was
an occultist.)
(Anyone who objects to the ancient word "witchcraft" because it is too close to their 20th century
or 21st century practices should use a name for those practices that didn't already have a specific
meaning or set of meanings that was already in use long before they came along.)
===========================
twi attempted to control others- that was "witchcraft."
twi still claims to have "secret" knowledge unknown even to other Christians for 2000 years- "occult".
twi claims to use "supernatural" means- the "LAW of Believing", prayer- to alter reality- "witchcraft."
Whether or not twi actually tapped into some supernatural evil to accomplish their tasks is a separate
question entirely.
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chockfull
And don't forget your towel.
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WordWolf
Can't be a hoopy frood without your towel.
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Twinky
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft ... says the Bible.
A favorite accusation of TWI is to accuse others of rebellion, which is "as the sin of witchcraft" - said darkly and having taught us that witches should be put to death.
"Watch out, then, or you become even more worthy of death!" goes the hidden agenda.
At no time did I ever hear an explanation of what "witchcraft" was - there was, of course, the "junk table" at the adv class, which we were not encouraged to look at.
That's some modern form of witchcraft...but what about its usage at the time? Can we guess at that? And this from a ministry that was into "use in its context." Did TWI define this term? No way! What did the context mean, then? Perhaps what was happening at the time of Moses when he challenged Pharaoh? Or the witches whom Saul sought advice from?
But what did TWI mean, conjuring tricks? Another of their stock accusations was, "You are not meek enough!"
Rebellion was also seen as lack of meekness. Even something as simple as suggesting a better way to do something, when one had expertise in that area yet faced with a "leader" or "coordinator" who didn't have expertise.
Therefore, perhaps, witchcraft is lack of meekness...retaining one's critical thinking...one's integrity.
And, thereby, refusing to submit to the overall control of TWI and its thought police. Refusing to submit to the ultimate controllers - the ultimate "witches" as defined within this thread.
And here I thought that Jesus died to set us free - from the control of adversaries. Silly me.
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Bramble
Is not prayer an act to use supernatural means to bring about change in reality?
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So_crates
I heard a teaching once by werewolf where he explained the "witchcraft" word in the Spiit of the Flesh passage in Romans. According to him, the Greek word was pharmakea (sp? Its all Greek to me), which he linked to drug use, because according to him, many forms of witchcraft involved drugs.
SoCrates
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Calavicci
I've tried to look up some info on that, but haven't found much.
I did find this interesting link:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=fa/rmakon
Some of the uses of that Greek word in literature do not carry a negative connotation, i.e., "Remedy,cure". So there must be a positive aspect. Interesting.
Some have mentioned the number 42 earlier. Couldn't the answer also be "420", esp. in this context, yanowutimeen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_%28cannabis_culture%29
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JavaJane
Is it possible that the word should have just been translated as "drug use"?
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So_crates
Don't know. At this point in time I'm leery (not timothy leary)of anything the ministry told me. However, according to them pharmakea is the same root we get pharmacy from.
SoCrates
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Ham
very good observation, friend..
I dunno. It's not just *them*.. its us as well..
they haven't approached me with secret ceremonies and such at the university here..
but there are some who won't admit they are in the Doctorate program.. they keep it a secret..
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Ham
it depends on the one praying I think..
you get up to that point.. and you ask the question.. do I REALLY want a world fashioned after *ME*..
no thanks..
one of me is more than enough..
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Ham
yeah.. somebody wanted *ME* once. I hope I didn't disappoint them.
that is, too much..
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Ductape
That was taken from the Companion Bible and I think it was from a passage in Galatians. The works of the flesh and witchcraft is listed.
It was the word sorcery, Gal. 5:20 defined as magical incantation by means of drugs
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socks
"I dunno. It's not just *them*.. its us as well.."
One man's ceiling is another man's sky, if you know what I mean.
Anything done more than once, well say within a frame of reference that requires it to be done more than once, as in where an observed cause and effect would lead one towards an expected response, can become a ritual of sorts and will start to carry meaning and significance around the performance of the act or the uh, thing. Being done. Without real consideration of the relationship between the action and the outcome other than it feels right or good or seems to "work" the same way or in an expected way each time.
All the stuff about watching one's favorite team and doing things the same way, wearing a hat that you wore every game where the team won, or stirring your nacho's 3 tiems before each play because they swished a basket when you did that - twice! and each time you stirred! and belched once so you want to do that now, that kind of thing.
We are creatures of habit, we'd go nuts if we weren't and where there's constant reinvention you get a lot of wasted effort if you're only getting the same results each time or can't even measure the results.
The measure of success people often end up going by is the way they feel when they perform the ritual. It can be soothing or just comfortable.
Nothing wrong with that. But it doesn't mean that the actions performed have any relationship to what the action was originally intended to produce. A lot of stuff is just habit and cultural glue or as the artist Don Van Vliet once said "it gets him dressed in the morning".
I've come to focus on the intent of the person doing the action and what they're trying to accomplish. For all the good Christians talk about, or Wiccans or Pagans or Witches or Don'BelieveNuttin's - theres a lot of greedy, selfish, meaner 'n' snot people of all stripe. (I should also add good ones too).
Seeing a thing for what it is - without imposing anything on it other than the immediate perception of what it actually is - can be difficult to do but not impossible, and can be learned. I'm sure many around here do that. Doing that I believe allows for the characteristics and textures of something to reveal themselves for what they really are.
Naturally that requires some form of receptor and therein is life's wonderful work, to me.
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excathedra
a little guilt never hurt a kid
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