The only thing I recall was reading the Vision and Direction document and it containing quotas referring to outreach and growth within the areas as far as # of people..
I believe there is a copy of the Vision and Direction document on here you could look at.. But it doesn't have $$ in it.. But then again, increase of people usually tends to bring in more $, and it is possible it could have been part of their intent..
The only thing I recall was reading the Vision and Direction document and it containing quotas referring to outreach and growth within the areas as far as # of people..
I believe there is a copy of the Vision and Direction document on here you could look at.. But it doesn't have $ in it.. But then again, increase of people usually tends to bring in more $, and it is possible it could have been part of their intent..
No specific monetary quotas, but V&D did specifically talk about growing ABS by 15% each year. It was a pipe dream of course because of attrition, but that was the "goal". Almost no one hit these goals, and they were not used as any kind of measuring stick anyways. At least not as of a couple years ago.
There used to be a radio traffic cop here in town who was fond of saying, "I have no ticket quotas,
I'm allowed to write as many as I want." I think that kinda sums it up for TWI as well. There was always a push to sign more people up for PLAF (The Wonder Class). If you had asked them why, they would have told you the reason for the push was to have as many people as possible see "the greatness of the word". Of course, they could have simply offered the class for free and increased enrollment numbers. They argued, though, that, unless people had to pay something for it, their capacity for appreciation and commitment would be diminished. So, then, you have to wonder, how great could it have really been if it couldn't stand alone on the value of its content?
I don't know if quota is the right word. I was at a twig coordinators meeting where my last 2 months of 'blue forms' were read to the group by an ordained clod, and demanded I explain 'how come Jack gave this much this week, and not the same amount the next week'. I later told the twig to never have me put their name on that form again, unless they were certain to use the tax write off. I knew that would be no one,as nobody made enough money to write off anyway.
-----and there was the legendary LCM statement that "God won't spit in your direction for less than 15%."----sounds like a quota to me but, what do I know?
When I was a first-year corpse on hee-hee-hah=hah relo, I had a leader with a high position take me under his wing for a day to show me the ropes. There were definitely goals at least at that level for ABS, PLAF, WOW and other stuff. When I graduated and ran a twig, I was never given such goals but was encouraged to have them.
Then again, maybe that was when I was a moonie, or Hare Krishna. There've just been so many!
-----and there was the legendary LCM statement that "God won't spit in your direction for less than 15%."----sounds like a quota to me but, what do I know?
You know...did any of us really want God to "spit in our face"? What a yukky metaphor.
I don't know if quota is the right word. I was at a twig coordinators meeting where my last 2 months of 'blue forms' were read to the group by an ordained clod, and demanded I explain 'how come Jack gave this much this week, and not the same amount the next week'. I later told the twig to never have me put their name on that form again, unless they were certain to use the tax write off. I knew that would be no one,as nobody made enough money to write off anyway.
Wow. Talk about crossing the line. I shouldn't be surprised, but that's striking.
For some people, teaching "the Word" was a way to "help people" That and the results that came from it weren't rare in my experience.
Financial quotas - no.
I don't recall anyone ever intruding on my own tithing, giving, or whatever you want to call it, nor I on anyone else. Other than the usual encouragement to give, and to tithe, etc.
I can't imagine accepting that kind of intrusion for long and have nothing but sympathy for anyone who found themselves in the situation where they did.
I still hear this a lot in various ministries and churches I've attended though, both in public sermons and general conversation. Christian religious business wants to get into your wallet. They need money to function, you have money so they want you to give them some of it. It runs the gamut from honest appeal to outright emotional and mental muggings.
What i think is the worse though, is that they "ask" or suggest one ought to give a percentage to der ministry, yet many in the group are barely living on pb&j 3 meals a day and that there $ could help a many hungry souls (and I don't mean hungry for da verd).
What i think is the worse though, is that they "ask" or suggest one ought to give a percentage to der ministry, yet many in the group are barely living on pb&j 3 meals a day and that there $ could help a many hungry souls (and I don't mean hungry for da verd).
.....while people at the top are waited on hand and foot by staff,
not even counting their salary from twi.
Lots of free perks being in charge of twi. Off the books, of course.
Free housekeeping, free personal cooks, maintenance of personal boat.....
The more I see that, the more that I see the downside of religious commerce, whether it's selling classes or having tax exempt land, given by others. It opens the doors for those who supposedly want to dedicate their lives to "serving others" and do "what Jesus would do" can do the exact opposite and accumulate "treasure" where "moth and rust" can eat away.
Upon the first conviction of member abuse a church/ministry/diocese should immediately have it's tax exempt status revoked pending review, with stiff penalties and back taxes collected for the years that the Tax Exempt clergy and officers were abusing their members and enjoying the benefits of being a "church".
And for those ministries/churches/diocese who insist that they answer to a Higher Law and can't be required to open their doors or their books even after being convicted of abuses to their members, the government can say fine. Good. Pay your taxes, pay your penalties, and you don't need any protection or consideration from the Lowly Lower Laws of the Land. Do as you will and expect to be treated like any other business and citizens.
The more I see that, the more that I see the downside of religious commerce, whether it's selling classes or having tax exempt land, given by others. It opens the doors for those who supposedly want to dedicate their lives to "serving others" and do "what Jesus would do" can do the exact opposite and accumulate "treasure" where "moth and rust" can eat away.
Upon the first conviction of member abuse a church/ministry/diocese should immediately have it's tax exempt status revoked pending review, with stiff penalties and back taxes collected for the years that the Tax Exempt clergy and officers were abusing their members and enjoying the benefits of being a "church".
And for those ministries/churches/diocese who insist that they answer to a Higher Law and can't be required to open their doors or their books even after being convicted of abuses to their members, the government can say fine. Good. Pay your taxes, pay your penalties, and you don't need any protection or consideration from the Lowly Lower Laws of the Land. Do as you will and expect to be treated like any other business and citizens.
Pay your taxes, pay your penalties, and you don't need any protection or consideration from the Lowly Lower Laws of the Land. Do as you will and expect to be treated like any other business and citizens.
In a lot of ways this was my wakeup call to see the reality of TWI. When people were committing acts and recommending courses of action towards others that were not only completely amoral, but also outside legal laws. Where I saw that people who should have been constrained by a basic good Christian conscience had none, and that their actions were only constrained by threat of legal action.
The more I see that, the more that I see the downside of religious commerce, whether it's selling classes or having tax exempt land, given by others. It opens the doors for those who supposedly want to dedicate their lives to "serving others" and do "what Jesus would do" can do the exact opposite and accumulate "treasure" where "moth and rust" can eat away.
Upon the first conviction of member abuse a church/ministry/diocese should immediately have it's tax exempt status revoked pending review, with stiff penalties and back taxes collected for the years that the Tax Exempt clergy and officers were abusing their members and enjoying the benefits of being a "church".
And for those ministries/churches/diocese who insist that they answer to a Higher Law and can't be required to open their doors or their books even after being convicted of abuses to their members, the government can say fine. Good. Pay your taxes, pay your penalties, and you don't need any protection or consideration from the Lowly Lower Laws of the Land. Do as you will and expect to be treated like any other business and citizens.
While I basicly agree with this, you need to make sure you protect the people who donated to them in the process. I don't really know the law in this case, but I would want to make sure that in the process of this happening that people who gave to the ministry in good faith did not retoactivly lose their legal tax deduction for their donation. I do know any church can have its tax exempt status investigated and that if this happens they better have their book in order.
Excellent point Keith. Those who supported the cause in good faith shouldn't be penalized.
As a NotALawyer, I'd assume that my bright idea would not be doable under current tax code
as I kinda understand it.
More practical would be to require that when the officers of an organization are convicted of crimes relating to the misuse of their office, position, resources, employees, etc. that the tax exempt status go under review and a temporary adjustment be made to the allowed deduction for donors.
This happened to PTL during their uh, problems and the IRS made a reduced allowance for deductions but pending review the whole exemption status was canned. I think it was reinstated later, but based on the allegations made against the organization - which had a lot do with Jim Baker of course - the IRS stepped forward and acted.
It only makes sense, the more you think about it. (notwithstanding that in Baker's case he wasn't much more than a dunce).
"Settlements" like the Way's done (and many others) takes them off the radar, as there's no convictions and the legal entity that is the organization is protected. But - the more suits and legal actions against the org that occur and the more expense involved, be it insurance/reinsurance or that paid out of their own accounts - that's going to effect donor confidence, or should. And I would think some kind of legal audit/advisory review of how much and how often a tax exempt org is sued would be a good idea, across the board.
The whole issue's about $$$ so I certainly don't want to see people acting in good faith hurt anymore than they already may be. But - if you give $$$ to get the deduction - you're working the same business angle the org is. It might be for very good reasons, but my expectation would be to accept what the market bears, current conditions and adjust accordingly, as one would with any business investments. There's certainly no "heavenly" reward involved if that's what someone is seeking (and I'm not addressing this to you specifically Keith, just generally shooting hot air here) - you get your reward when you file your tax return and lower your earned income amount and your tax liability. It makes sense to have some accomadation like that, I'm all for it.
I don't think exemptions and personal deductions are a bad thing, at all. I do think there's a great deal of dishonest dealing with the entire idea. Looking back it's easy to see that regardless of what good the Way did (and I do think there was good) the $$$ structure was completely bassackwards and appears to be still today. Roman Catholicism, same - a mess.
Religion in general is Big Business. "Greed is good", indeed, and no better greed than the good kind for a good cause.
Money seems to be the biggest stumbling block for God's people. Jesus had someone who watched over the money (John 12:3-6). That didn't work out really well, did it?
I was a twig cordo for 3 years. I do not recall ever being told to squeeze those in my twig for their money. I passed the horn around, and occasionally taught on ABS, but put no other pressure on anyone.
I was a twig cordo for 3 years. I do not recall ever being told to squeeze those in my twig for their money. I passed the horn around, and occasionally taught on ABS, but put no other pressure on anyone.
I think a good amount of twig coords and all were pretty honest folks. Caring, kind, helpful.. Showed decent Christian character..
It was once they moved up the ladder, or were pressed on by their "leaders", that those some kind caring people did the most harm.. Who'd expect them to lead them wrong when for the most part they have been caring. So, they teach on ABS, teach the 10% or more tithe as if God needs their money, oh, I mean , yes, the hoarding board needs that $.
The Vision and Direction documents that the Corps are under specify quotas. This includes number of new students taking various classes as well as percent revenue increase of the ABS. These quotas and progress towards them are dictated to be the topic of weekly calls at every level of TWI leadership. Some may be more or less dictatorial about the implementation of this. However, if they are doing the job that is specified of them in their position description they are absolutely aware of green quotas, are talking about it amongst their leadership on a weekly basis, and it never goes out of sight. And to be a "good employee" (which there is more pressure on this if they are drawing a salary from TWI), then this leads to delving into individuals and how much they are giving. They make placement decisions on where Corps go based upon how well they are able to implement increase which includes hitting green quota marks.
So with all of the talk of a "kinder gentler" TWI, this is still what is happening behind the scenes. It has gone on this way for more than a decade. So if you want to be involved in TWI, then realize that will place you under this type of scrutiny with how much you are giving.
I remember a sns tape from '95 where LCM was angry about during the previous year only 12% of new pfal grads renewed their subscription of the way mag. He said, "you got money for HBO, Cinemax, etc. but not for the way mag?? He was very mad.
I remember a sns tape from '95 where LCM was angry about during the previous year only 12% of new pfal grads renewed their subscription of the way mag. He said, "you got money for HBO, Cinemax, etc. but not for the way mag?? He was very mad.
Was that when they started pushing married couples to get 2 copies.. Maybe that was '98... I remember thinking how stupid that was.. But of course then they implemented that the fellowships have one night a week devoted to reviewing the mag, which meant everyone ought to have a copy in their hand.. You think that all went hand in hand to drive up way mag and revenue?!
Just glad I were single.. But I felt sorry for those married. Just seemed like they added weight upon weight to them, and once budgeting and scheduling came down the pipe and more forced at the twig level.. Yeah, that's when a lot of &@#$%& hit the fan.
Control Control Control, all in the name of God, but honestly it looked more like the green god..
I think it's kind of ironic that beginning in '94 they rooted out people who didn't have money. They packaged it all "spiritual", but they must've figured that anybody whose "believing wasn't sufficient" to put more money in the horn weren't worth the headaches.
First they got rid of people who were in debt, then they got rid of "unproductive evil" which amounts to people who didn't ABS enough. The war on homos was probably an "earmark" in this strategy. A show of spirituality with no substance.
What I find ironic, though, is that the people in twi who rose up in leadership the right way did so by helping those who were weak. By being a source of comfort and stability; making people feel loved, not judged. There was a time in twi when many people were like that even if they weren't leaders. IMO that's how the body of Christ is supposed to work. That's how any family is supposed to work. What the hell was LCM thinking?
They just came out with these new $4 song books, that have a few "new" songs in them. Naturally, fellowships started using the new songs (as per direct 'leadership' mandate of course) in fellowship to remind people that they basically need to drop four dollars and get them, right away.
Another transparent attempt to squeeze out some revenue, no doubt. They are starting to get desperate, I think....
The more I see that, the more that I see the downside of religious commerce, whether it's selling classes or having tax exempt land, given by others. It opens the doors for those who supposedly want to dedicate their lives to "serving others" and do "what Jesus would do" can do the exact opposite and accumulate "treasure" where "moth and rust" can eat away.
Upon the first conviction of member abuse a church/ministry/diocese should immediately have it's tax exempt status revoked pending review, with stiff penalties and back taxes collected for the years that the Tax Exempt clergy and officers were abusing their members and enjoying the benefits of being a "church".
And for those ministries/churches/diocese who insist that they answer to a Higher Law and can't be required to open their doors or their books even after being convicted of abuses to their members, the government can say fine. Good. Pay your taxes, pay your penalties, and you don't need any protection or consideration from the Lowly Lower Laws of the Land. Do as you will and expect to be treated like any other business and citizens.
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TrustAndObey
The only thing I recall was reading the Vision and Direction document and it containing quotas referring to outreach and growth within the areas as far as # of people..
I believe there is a copy of the Vision and Direction document on here you could look at.. But it doesn't have $$ in it.. But then again, increase of people usually tends to bring in more $, and it is possible it could have been part of their intent..
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shortfuse
No specific monetary quotas, but V&D did specifically talk about growing ABS by 15% each year. It was a pipe dream of course because of attrition, but that was the "goal". Almost no one hit these goals, and they were not used as any kind of measuring stick anyways. At least not as of a couple years ago.
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waysider
There used to be a radio traffic cop here in town who was fond of saying, "I have no ticket quotas,
I'm allowed to write as many as I want." I think that kinda sums it up for TWI as well. There was always a push to sign more people up for PLAF (The Wonder Class). If you had asked them why, they would have told you the reason for the push was to have as many people as possible see "the greatness of the word". Of course, they could have simply offered the class for free and increased enrollment numbers. They argued, though, that, unless people had to pay something for it, their capacity for appreciation and commitment would be diminished. So, then, you have to wonder, how great could it have really been if it couldn't stand alone on the value of its content?
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hiway29
I don't know if quota is the right word. I was at a twig coordinators meeting where my last 2 months of 'blue forms' were read to the group by an ordained clod, and demanded I explain 'how come Jack gave this much this week, and not the same amount the next week'. I later told the twig to never have me put their name on that form again, unless they were certain to use the tax write off. I knew that would be no one,as nobody made enough money to write off anyway.
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waysider
-----and there was the legendary LCM statement that "God won't spit in your direction for less than 15%."----sounds like a quota to me but, what do I know?
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Broken Arrow
When I was a first-year corpse on hee-hee-hah=hah relo, I had a leader with a high position take me under his wing for a day to show me the ropes. There were definitely goals at least at that level for ABS, PLAF, WOW and other stuff. When I graduated and ran a twig, I was never given such goals but was encouraged to have them.
Then again, maybe that was when I was a moonie, or Hare Krishna. There've just been so many!
You know...did any of us really want God to "spit in our face"? What a yukky metaphor.
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shortfuse
Wow. Talk about crossing the line. I shouldn't be surprised, but that's striking.
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socks
For some people, teaching "the Word" was a way to "help people" That and the results that came from it weren't rare in my experience.
Financial quotas - no.
I don't recall anyone ever intruding on my own tithing, giving, or whatever you want to call it, nor I on anyone else. Other than the usual encouragement to give, and to tithe, etc.
I can't imagine accepting that kind of intrusion for long and have nothing but sympathy for anyone who found themselves in the situation where they did.
I still hear this a lot in various ministries and churches I've attended though, both in public sermons and general conversation. Christian religious business wants to get into your wallet. They need money to function, you have money so they want you to give them some of it. It runs the gamut from honest appeal to outright emotional and mental muggings.
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TrustAndObey
What i think is the worse though, is that they "ask" or suggest one ought to give a percentage to der ministry, yet many in the group are barely living on pb&j 3 meals a day and that there $ could help a many hungry souls (and I don't mean hungry for da verd).
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WordWolf
.....while people at the top are waited on hand and foot by staff,
not even counting their salary from twi.
Lots of free perks being in charge of twi. Off the books, of course.
Free housekeeping, free personal cooks, maintenance of personal boat.....
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socks
I think that's very true, overall WW and TandO.
The more I see that, the more that I see the downside of religious commerce, whether it's selling classes or having tax exempt land, given by others. It opens the doors for those who supposedly want to dedicate their lives to "serving others" and do "what Jesus would do" can do the exact opposite and accumulate "treasure" where "moth and rust" can eat away.
Upon the first conviction of member abuse a church/ministry/diocese should immediately have it's tax exempt status revoked pending review, with stiff penalties and back taxes collected for the years that the Tax Exempt clergy and officers were abusing their members and enjoying the benefits of being a "church".
And for those ministries/churches/diocese who insist that they answer to a Higher Law and can't be required to open their doors or their books even after being convicted of abuses to their members, the government can say fine. Good. Pay your taxes, pay your penalties, and you don't need any protection or consideration from the Lowly Lower Laws of the Land. Do as you will and expect to be treated like any other business and citizens.
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DogLover
AMEN, SOCKS!
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chockfull
In a lot of ways this was my wakeup call to see the reality of TWI. When people were committing acts and recommending courses of action towards others that were not only completely amoral, but also outside legal laws. Where I saw that people who should have been constrained by a basic good Christian conscience had none, and that their actions were only constrained by threat of legal action.
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Keith
While I basicly agree with this, you need to make sure you protect the people who donated to them in the process. I don't really know the law in this case, but I would want to make sure that in the process of this happening that people who gave to the ministry in good faith did not retoactivly lose their legal tax deduction for their donation. I do know any church can have its tax exempt status investigated and that if this happens they better have their book in order.
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socks
Excellent point Keith. Those who supported the cause in good faith shouldn't be penalized.
As a NotALawyer, I'd assume that my bright idea would not be doable under current tax code
as I kinda understand it.
More practical would be to require that when the officers of an organization are convicted of crimes relating to the misuse of their office, position, resources, employees, etc. that the tax exempt status go under review and a temporary adjustment be made to the allowed deduction for donors.
This happened to PTL during their uh, problems and the IRS made a reduced allowance for deductions but pending review the whole exemption status was canned. I think it was reinstated later, but based on the allegations made against the organization - which had a lot do with Jim Baker of course - the IRS stepped forward and acted.
It only makes sense, the more you think about it. (notwithstanding that in Baker's case he wasn't much more than a dunce).
"Settlements" like the Way's done (and many others) takes them off the radar, as there's no convictions and the legal entity that is the organization is protected. But - the more suits and legal actions against the org that occur and the more expense involved, be it insurance/reinsurance or that paid out of their own accounts - that's going to effect donor confidence, or should. And I would think some kind of legal audit/advisory review of how much and how often a tax exempt org is sued would be a good idea, across the board.
The whole issue's about $$$ so I certainly don't want to see people acting in good faith hurt anymore than they already may be. But - if you give $$$ to get the deduction - you're working the same business angle the org is. It might be for very good reasons, but my expectation would be to accept what the market bears, current conditions and adjust accordingly, as one would with any business investments. There's certainly no "heavenly" reward involved if that's what someone is seeking (and I'm not addressing this to you specifically Keith, just generally shooting hot air here) - you get your reward when you file your tax return and lower your earned income amount and your tax liability. It makes sense to have some accomadation like that, I'm all for it.
I don't think exemptions and personal deductions are a bad thing, at all. I do think there's a great deal of dishonest dealing with the entire idea. Looking back it's easy to see that regardless of what good the Way did (and I do think there was good) the $$$ structure was completely bassackwards and appears to be still today. Roman Catholicism, same - a mess.
Religion in general is Big Business. "Greed is good", indeed, and no better greed than the good kind for a good cause.
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johniam
Money seems to be the biggest stumbling block for God's people. Jesus had someone who watched over the money (John 12:3-6). That didn't work out really well, did it?
I was a twig cordo for 3 years. I do not recall ever being told to squeeze those in my twig for their money. I passed the horn around, and occasionally taught on ABS, but put no other pressure on anyone.
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TrustAndObey
I think a good amount of twig coords and all were pretty honest folks. Caring, kind, helpful.. Showed decent Christian character..
It was once they moved up the ladder, or were pressed on by their "leaders", that those some kind caring people did the most harm.. Who'd expect them to lead them wrong when for the most part they have been caring. So, they teach on ABS, teach the 10% or more tithe as if God needs their money, oh, I mean , yes, the hoarding board needs that $.
Just sad.
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chockfull
The Vision and Direction documents that the Corps are under specify quotas. This includes number of new students taking various classes as well as percent revenue increase of the ABS. These quotas and progress towards them are dictated to be the topic of weekly calls at every level of TWI leadership. Some may be more or less dictatorial about the implementation of this. However, if they are doing the job that is specified of them in their position description they are absolutely aware of green quotas, are talking about it amongst their leadership on a weekly basis, and it never goes out of sight. And to be a "good employee" (which there is more pressure on this if they are drawing a salary from TWI), then this leads to delving into individuals and how much they are giving. They make placement decisions on where Corps go based upon how well they are able to implement increase which includes hitting green quota marks.
So with all of the talk of a "kinder gentler" TWI, this is still what is happening behind the scenes. It has gone on this way for more than a decade. So if you want to be involved in TWI, then realize that will place you under this type of scrutiny with how much you are giving.
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johniam
I remember a sns tape from '95 where LCM was angry about during the previous year only 12% of new pfal grads renewed their subscription of the way mag. He said, "you got money for HBO, Cinemax, etc. but not for the way mag?? He was very mad.
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TrustAndObey
Was that when they started pushing married couples to get 2 copies.. Maybe that was '98... I remember thinking how stupid that was.. But of course then they implemented that the fellowships have one night a week devoted to reviewing the mag, which meant everyone ought to have a copy in their hand.. You think that all went hand in hand to drive up way mag and revenue?!
Just glad I were single.. But I felt sorry for those married. Just seemed like they added weight upon weight to them, and once budgeting and scheduling came down the pipe and more forced at the twig level.. Yeah, that's when a lot of &@#$%& hit the fan.
Control Control Control, all in the name of God, but honestly it looked more like the green god..
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johniam
I think it's kind of ironic that beginning in '94 they rooted out people who didn't have money. They packaged it all "spiritual", but they must've figured that anybody whose "believing wasn't sufficient" to put more money in the horn weren't worth the headaches.
First they got rid of people who were in debt, then they got rid of "unproductive evil" which amounts to people who didn't ABS enough. The war on homos was probably an "earmark" in this strategy. A show of spirituality with no substance.
What I find ironic, though, is that the people in twi who rose up in leadership the right way did so by helping those who were weak. By being a source of comfort and stability; making people feel loved, not judged. There was a time in twi when many people were like that even if they weren't leaders. IMO that's how the body of Christ is supposed to work. That's how any family is supposed to work. What the hell was LCM thinking?
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Calavicci
They just came out with these new $4 song books, that have a few "new" songs in them. Naturally, fellowships started using the new songs (as per direct 'leadership' mandate of course) in fellowship to remind people that they basically need to drop four dollars and get them, right away.
Another transparent attempt to squeeze out some revenue, no doubt. They are starting to get desperate, I think....
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Grace Valerie Claire
Socks;
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