Here's a question that's been on my mind for ma little while. Its even got to the point where I'm researching it. You think vpw dabbled in the occult?
For evidence I'll offer:
Believing: which is now repackaged as the law of attraction and all the rage. (I've had two girls in Florida tell me it was their religion)
Twig: I've always found it curious that twig was a group of between seven and 12 people. A covenent consists of 13 people.
His heavy us of symbology.
Further, he seem to have extensive knowledge of occult sciences and devil spirits, while he had to plagarize eveyone else for bibical material.
All this could be circumstantial, but it just strikes me as strange. You guys and gals that where in the upper structures of the ministry. See anyting that in retrospect would suggest this?
SoCrates
Hi SoCrates (Bill & Ted's?)
When one considers the times VPW grew up in. America had gone through a great period of, not so much occultism, as spiritualism. A lot of books of curious interest were written during the times he was forming his "opinions" and dfetly deciding what to plagarize. Though if you're taking the "Christian" approach to philosophy and money-making during the age of Tent-Revivals - you didn't credit the stuff you read to build your own ministry. you just stole a little here and a little there and cobbled it together and called it your own.
There seems to be GREAT validity to your musings in that regard.
I think a lot of the material he borrowed from had occult "DNA", so to speak. But, I don't think he set out to intentionally base his work on the occult. It's just coincidental that the similarities exist----in my opinion.
Well I do dabble in "the occult" and I can tell you that there are a lot of similarities between much of what he taught and what is taught in metaphysical circles. I doubt that he was aware of it though. There was a lot of that kind of thought in some Christian circles.
That's no secret. I'd be more concerned if you saw someone else and thought it was you.
Or is it like looking in the mirror and recognizing someone else?
Let's see - the "free dictionary" online.
1.Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.3. Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.4. Hidden from view; concealed
Aaaand various other renderings. So if it means something like that, how is it being used here? What kinds of things are being referred to?
"Occult" - are we adding "scarey" into the mix? I didn't see anything about scarey in my cursory look up.
I read a "secret" ritual from a member of the ToS that described a ritual "vampire" ceremony. It balanced somewhere between abusive and ridiculous, but mostly sounded just silly and would be somewhere at the end of a long list of "things that aren't scarey but try to act skeered so the "vampire" doesn't feel stupid. Then leave".
no, SECRECT. Not just the ordinary run of da mill secrets of da universe.. like why frozen oxygen is attracted to magnets. A lot of those secrets have been discovered..
No run of the mill secrets. what about..
What about, me, God, the Universe, and Everything?
don't put it off so easily..
if you don't mind me asking.. what are your origins? Christian? Native American? Other? Or a mixture?
I remember a Native American story.. or narrative, or whatever or however you might describe it..
there was a hidden cave.. somewhere. All the animals could show up, and take off their coats, mingle..
Well I do dabble in "the occult" and I can tell you that there are a lot of similarities between much of what he taught and what is taught in metaphysical circles. I doubt that he was aware of it though. There was a lot of that kind of thought in some Christian circles.
I don't think vpw sat down and said "I want to add practices from metaphysical sources" at any point.
vpw's goal was to build an organization with the trappings of Christianity,
with which he could get adulation and money.
His means of doing so was to steal/plagiarize the works of others, cobble them together into a framework,
and claim he had special, secret knowledge from God and that's how he got it all.
This "special, secret knowledge" thing, is, technically, an OCCULT approach- that there is secret, HIDDEN, esoteric
knowledge for the initiated.
That some of the ideas and practices of his "occult" (Gnostic) framework just happened to cross over
with more conventional "occult" (supernatural elements, non-Christian) frameworks is more due to him having
occult GOALS. So, he ended up going in the same direction as the ouija board users he'd condemn.
As someone who taught there were hidden secrets, and that you could manipulate reality with a so-called
"LAW" of believing, he introduced far more Christians to occult doctrine than all the ouija board owners
in the history of the US.
If one is a practicing Christian, this shouldn't be too much of a surprise- a man who seeks to serve himself,
commit and hide sins, and hide them in God's name will of course end up serving satan in the process.
I was trying to be polite. I was thinking something more along the lines of what we would call the black arts. With his prowless, I would consider tantra. He also had an unnatural hold over his victims.
Think about it for a tick, with as many victims as he had, would a (for lack of a better term) muggle have gotten away with it as long without a leak developing somewhere?
Well, somewhere between his influences there are areas that would fall in the metaphysical field of uh, philosophy, whatever. I don't like the way a lot of these labels are used and defined, often with extreme bias favoring the ones defining them at the moment but that's another topic. Occult, metaphysical, philosophical - these terms have very different meanings depending on who applies them, but....
Two people that he often spoke about in the earlier days were Glenn Clark and Rufus Mosely. Both were fairly outta the box in terms of traditional conservative western theology - well, certainly Lutheran and/or Methodist.
They're worth reading about in this context if you're not familiar with them. Clark was a great believer in the power of prayer and pursued it from the perspective of the individual's focus and intent as having a direct impact on the outcomes of what was prayed for. Clark's influences in ministry outreach is still felt today, heard a very conservative minister reference him a few years ago, who's retired and works in some pastoral training ministries overseas and he suddenly brought Clark up in reference to India and his own thoughts on western Christians reaching people in the middle east.
Mosely, very much a "mystic" who was often overcome by a kinda serious "divine buzz" by the sounds of it, even in public activities. He was very committed to having the personal experience of being in the "presence of God", some sort of spiritual divine state he definitely felt was ideal.
When I first visited the Way in late 1969, and 1970, it was a very different environment than what it became in later years. I've posted on this before. The "Sunday Night Services" at the Way Nash were a real hoot, he'd get going, people'd be amening and yeah'ing! and stomping when they got going, all through his teaching segments. He'd get so excited physically his hair'd be flying, bible thumping away, loud and kickin' it. "Dorothy and Rhoda" would crank on the keys too. He'd drill right in on people and it was like dropping dime right and left, he seemed to know what was going on minute to minute and how people were responding.
Given how the Way soon was to become - rather judgmental,, stuffy and conservative in it's own world, it's interesting that these people (and others, like "Bishop K. C. Pillai") were influences.
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Gen-2
Hi SoCrates (Bill & Ted's?)
When one considers the times VPW grew up in. America had gone through a great period of, not so much occultism, as spiritualism. A lot of books of curious interest were written during the times he was forming his "opinions" and dfetly deciding what to plagarize. Though if you're taking the "Christian" approach to philosophy and money-making during the age of Tent-Revivals - you didn't credit the stuff you read to build your own ministry. you just stole a little here and a little there and cobbled it together and called it your own.
There seems to be GREAT validity to your musings in that regard.
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Ham
did vp *dabble* in the occult. My thoughts are, yes, he did. He just put a christian label on it..
I saw him do it..
he covered himself with light in one instance.. for the benefit of fawning followers, and those who would eventually consider and reject it all..
can one cover darkness with light? I am beginning to think it is a possiblity..
now as far as his description of the phenomena.. "can't dabble and not get dirty.."
maybe he made himself far more unclean than the rest of us..
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waysider
I think a lot of the material he borrowed from had occult "DNA", so to speak. But, I don't think he set out to intentionally base his work on the occult. It's just coincidental that the similarities exist----in my opinion.
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Oakspear
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socks
In the final moments of these last days in the coming week - can we work a little on defining what we mean by "occult"...?
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waysider
Manipulating your physical surroundings through the power of thought.
(At least, that's the answer I got when I asked the ouija board.)
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Ham
It has nothing to do with "cult"..
it's "secret".. or (apparently or by partial agreement) hidden..
I've gotten in trouble once not keeping a secret. No I didn't put it in light of day..
More like something.. "I know who you are.."
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socks
That's no secret. I'd be more concerned if you saw someone else and thought it was you.
Or is it like looking in the mirror and recognizing someone else?
Let's see - the "free dictionary" online.
1.Of, relating to, or dealing with supernatural influences, agencies, or phenomena.2. Beyond the realm of human comprehension; inscrutable.3. Available only to the initiate; secret: occult lore. See Synonyms at mysterious.4. Hidden from view; concealed
Aaaand various other renderings. So if it means something like that, how is it being used here? What kinds of things are being referred to?
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Ham
Scary, or non-scary depending on your point of view..
what if you looked another living soul in the eye, or should I rephrase it.. they LET you look them in the eye.. and you saw yourself..
I think the hidden secret.. is.. we are all the same..
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Ham
so how does one keep all this from driving one "nutso"..
I have a shred of individuality I fiercely fought for in some kind of competition on the other side..
maybe it was some kind of cosmic "boobie prize"..
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socks
Yeah, well. Have fun with that one.
Deeder deeder doo....
"Occult" - are we adding "scarey" into the mix? I didn't see anything about scarey in my cursory look up.
I read a "secret" ritual from a member of the ToS that described a ritual "vampire" ceremony. It balanced somewhere between abusive and ridiculous, but mostly sounded just silly and would be somewhere at the end of a long list of "things that aren't scarey but try to act skeered so the "vampire" doesn't feel stupid. Then leave".
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Ham
"Scarey" involves fear of the unknown..
no, SECRECT. Not just the ordinary run of da mill secrets of da universe.. like why frozen oxygen is attracted to magnets. A lot of those secrets have been discovered..
No run of the mill secrets. what about..
What about, me, God, the Universe, and Everything?
don't put it off so easily..
if you don't mind me asking.. what are your origins? Christian? Native American? Other? Or a mixture?
I remember a Native American story.. or narrative, or whatever or however you might describe it..
there was a hidden cave.. somewhere. All the animals could show up, and take off their coats, mingle..
and they were all the same..
any thoughts? Nuts, I know.. but I embrace nuts..
I'm a squirrel, for crying out loud..
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Ham
If it makes any difference..
that was the whole point of this existence wasn't it? the possibility of FAILURE.. i.e... being "wrong"..?
sorry if this is too much nonsense for you..
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Ham
i can live with my nonsense, can you live with yours?
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Ham
sorry for the multitude of posts or some such nonesnes..
what is the "connection" here?
it's almost like most of it is like air under water..
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waysider
Tomorrow Never Comes
Let this moment last forever
Yes, it must.
And let each passing one
Seem like our very last.
Let's pretend that tomorrow's just a dream.
For we will all be one again.
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WordWolf
I don't think vpw sat down and said "I want to add practices from metaphysical sources" at any point.
vpw's goal was to build an organization with the trappings of Christianity,
with which he could get adulation and money.
His means of doing so was to steal/plagiarize the works of others, cobble them together into a framework,
and claim he had special, secret knowledge from God and that's how he got it all.
This "special, secret knowledge" thing, is, technically, an OCCULT approach- that there is secret, HIDDEN, esoteric
knowledge for the initiated.
That some of the ideas and practices of his "occult" (Gnostic) framework just happened to cross over
with more conventional "occult" (supernatural elements, non-Christian) frameworks is more due to him having
occult GOALS. So, he ended up going in the same direction as the ouija board users he'd condemn.
As someone who taught there were hidden secrets, and that you could manipulate reality with a so-called
"LAW" of believing, he introduced far more Christians to occult doctrine than all the ouija board owners
in the history of the US.
If one is a practicing Christian, this shouldn't be too much of a surprise- a man who seeks to serve himself,
commit and hide sins, and hide them in God's name will of course end up serving satan in the process.
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So_crates
I was trying to be polite. I was thinking something more along the lines of what we would call the black arts. With his prowless, I would consider tantra. He also had an unnatural hold over his victims.
Think about it for a tick, with as many victims as he had, would a (for lack of a better term) muggle have gotten away with it as long without a leak developing somewhere?
SoCrates
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socks
Well, somewhere between his influences there are areas that would fall in the metaphysical field of uh, philosophy, whatever. I don't like the way a lot of these labels are used and defined, often with extreme bias favoring the ones defining them at the moment but that's another topic. Occult, metaphysical, philosophical - these terms have very different meanings depending on who applies them, but....
Two people that he often spoke about in the earlier days were Glenn Clark and Rufus Mosely. Both were fairly outta the box in terms of traditional conservative western theology - well, certainly Lutheran and/or Methodist.
They're worth reading about in this context if you're not familiar with them. Clark was a great believer in the power of prayer and pursued it from the perspective of the individual's focus and intent as having a direct impact on the outcomes of what was prayed for. Clark's influences in ministry outreach is still felt today, heard a very conservative minister reference him a few years ago, who's retired and works in some pastoral training ministries overseas and he suddenly brought Clark up in reference to India and his own thoughts on western Christians reaching people in the middle east.
Mosely, very much a "mystic" who was often overcome by a kinda serious "divine buzz" by the sounds of it, even in public activities. He was very committed to having the personal experience of being in the "presence of God", some sort of spiritual divine state he definitely felt was ideal.
When I first visited the Way in late 1969, and 1970, it was a very different environment than what it became in later years. I've posted on this before. The "Sunday Night Services" at the Way Nash were a real hoot, he'd get going, people'd be amening and yeah'ing! and stomping when they got going, all through his teaching segments. He'd get so excited physically his hair'd be flying, bible thumping away, loud and kickin' it. "Dorothy and Rhoda" would crank on the keys too. He'd drill right in on people and it was like dropping dime right and left, he seemed to know what was going on minute to minute and how people were responding.
Given how the Way soon was to become - rather judgmental,, stuffy and conservative in it's own world, it's interesting that these people (and others, like "Bishop K. C. Pillai") were influences.
Occult? Black arts? Dunno.
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Ductape
Good stuff Socks, decided to google and didn't find a lot on Rufus; but found this:
Glenn Clarke
Interesting he was called "something of a mystic"
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