God expects us to forgive, out of thankfulness for what we have been forgiven for.
But at human level - we can't demand forgiveness from anyone. We can ask for it, expect it... but demand it? No. That would be like tearing the wings off a butterfly and wondering why it didn't flutter round any more.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" means, I think, that the perpetrators of heinous acts don't understand the big picture, they don't understand God's plan, they have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Sure, they know what their physical actions are. But they don't understand what their actions mean, or the repercussions from their actions.
Again, like a little kid pulling the wings off a butterfly - knows he's doing it, but doesn't understand what the purpose of the wings is, how they work.
Now why don't perpetrators have the proper understanding?
One reason might be simply lack of willingness at purely physical level to understand what they're doing. Lack of empathy. Lack of consideration. Or misguidedness based on wrong information.
Another reason might be that their minds are so spiritually blinded (aka, possession) that the necessary part of their brain really doesn't function correctly. They genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the best in whatever part of their brain is still "thinking." So they have to be forgiven for [allowing themselves to be] being spiritually deceived.
I always thought that those words at the crucial time of the crucifixion were JC's acknowledgment of the spiritual forces in play at the time. This was the great battle of good and evil, and the human actors were just bit players and as dispensible as the clothes they wore. That was why he sought forgiveness for them - for their very human frailty.
well, I did it. Just grab onto the frigging road worn scammer long enough to GIVE them exactly what it was they were desperately trying to scam me out of..
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" means, I think, that the perpetrators of heinous acts don't understand the big picture, they don't understand God's plan, they have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Sure, they know what their physical actions are. But they don't understand what their actions mean, or the repercussions from their actions.
Again, like a little kid pulling the wings off a butterfly - knows he's doing it, but doesn't understand what the purpose of the wings is, how they work.
So, was Jesus speaking to the roman soldiers that parted his garment? ... or ... the pharisees that condemned him?
I had to repent of my sins with God to be forgiven. I need a Savior who stood in my stead........I had to recognize I needed Him and acknowledge who He was.
With the parable of the Grumbling Pharisees.......(that is who Jesus is speaking to with the parable of the Prodigal Son).. . . . Jesus forced them to acknowledge that it was better for a repentant sinner than for someone who denies being a sinner and hides behind a facade of hypocrisy.
I have never heard someone say Jesus forgave the Pharisees from the cross. Was He forgiving them for being of their father the devil? Did He take back telling them they were not entering into the Kingdom of heaven? That was pronouncing a judgment.
Matthew 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Jesus did forgive those Pharisees who came to Him and He even ate with some of them......Peter actually got on Jesus for offending the Pharisees. . . . . but, not all of them came to Him. The ones who did...He forgave.
They were all offered forgiveness time and again, but, they didn't think they needed it.
How do we know about the unforgivable sin....it is through the actions and hearts of the Pharisees.
I am genuinely confused by why someone would think Jesus forgave them.
Oldskool: Ya, that's real similar to the teachings in this particular offshoot. As I said, the way international is largely irrelevant to me so there are no tentacles attached. And the account is not mine to forgive.
I really respect you Oldskool. Being able to differentiate between who has the responsibility to forgive what was something that the Bible clearly teaches -- and what was especially appealing to me about Catholics: I only confess my own sins. A priest does not want to hear me "confess" anyone else's sins.
Jesus could forgive people's sins because he was the Son of God. But except for him, the forgiving I see must be to "whoever you have ought against." (Mark 11:25,26) -- From what Jesus says, unforgiveness is holding anything at all against someone. It is so important that we don't hold anything at all against anyone if we want our own sins forgiven. ("25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.")
That old prayer seems most appropriate to me, "Dear Lord, I am doing ok right now but I will need Your help from here on out because I'm going to get out of bed now." Also I find myself in need of forgiveness on a minute by minute basis. I remember reading an article about Mother Teresa in a Catholic periodical by an ordinary Catholic writer, and she mentioned that Mother Teresa, after the interview asked her if she would hear her confession (Mother Teresa was really a nice person!!!!!). But it so impressed me that if Mother Teresa was in need of confession "right now" then surely it's not a stretch to understand that I do also, and "right now" is really good to get it. Therefore I must keep my forgiveness current as well.
I know that 2 Corinthians 2:11, "Lest satan should get advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices" is in the context of forgiveness -- "us" get taken advantage of when we fail to forgive.
Thanks for listening to me. What a treasure that is: to be able to speak and to be heard by someone. Thanks so much, Pawtucket et al.
I know that 2 Corinthians 2:11, "Lest satan should get advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices" is in the context of forgiveness -- "us" get taken advantage of when we fail to forgive.
Or it could also be.... that being ignorant of Satan's devices comes when we fail to heed the warning of scripture that tells us to leave these guys alone. Stay away, avoid them....DANGER WILL ROBINSON...this is in part so we don't even get into a situation where we are confused by trying to forgive them for something God Almighty is not even going to forgive them for. False teachers disguise themselves angels of light. Tricky thing... thinking you are not forgiving a true brother.
And forgiving false teachers has nothing to do with emotion or your personal healing. God has to deliver us from the pit they lead us into and that begins with recognition of who they really are.
We become ensnared and we become blinded by false teachers and false doctrine. It takes hearing about the reality of these men...their doctrines...and definitely their lives to help us begin...untangling.
The Apostle Paul spoke more about the lives of false teachers, their immorality, and their wickedness than he did about their doctrines.This is what really exposes them for who they are! They lead people away from Jesus Christ and salvation and their behavior is a reflection of this truth . This isn't about someone breaking a 10 commandment. This is serious. We stay away in part because THAT itself is judgment. Staying away...leaving them alone....avoiding them. That is part of their judgment.
Jesus unleashed when God was being dishonored. Doesn't Jesus have forgiveness, compassion, and mercy? You bet. What did Jesus say their judgment was going to be? What did Paul say their judgment was going to be? What did Peter say their judgment was going to be? Were they supposed to forgive them?
Instead of we deciding who it is that is going to be forgiven....why don't we actually look at the scriptures and let them speak? Maybe we should know exactly what it is we are trying to forgive? It is not a question of moving on with our lives....we have to do that no matter what.....but it is God who has to deliver us.
We don't have the power to forgive them their offense against God and sadly. . . . . we are a part of that offense against God because we are the ones they lead astray. We can now actually heed the warning in scripture and stay away from them. We can actually ask God to forgive us for leading others into TWI. Signing them up for the class...
If we know how bad it really is....we can repent!! If we don't know what we were involved in....than we are not going to repent.
IF we confess our sins, He IS faithful and just to forgive us.
Jesus didn't say things like it is better for a millstone to be hung around their necks for nothing. God's greatest wrath is reserved for these guys.
When one is injured physically, healing doesn't occur instantaneously. Our bodies have to process the injury so that the healing replaces that which was lost. About a year ago I was doing a window cleaning job which required the use of a 6" wide razor blade. I was holding the razor, a squeegee, and a strip washer in the same hand at one point. I ended up cutting my left index finger between the 1st and 2nd sections of the finger. Ouch.
It took me 2 hours just to stop the bleeding. I could continue working, but for more than a week I had to constantly change bandages, apply triple antibiotic ointment, etc. To this day I feel numbness if I touch the place where the skin was broken, although I still enjoy full use of the finger/hand. But it took time for my body to "forgive" the injury. I believe that when we are hurt inside, our minds/souls require time to process these injuries as well. You can't just think a thought like flipping on or off a light switch and expect immediate healing. There's a part of the process, though, where, IMO, forgiveness is the best medicine.
Each person has his/her own way of dealing with this stuff. One verse that rings true for me is...
Eccl.5:20 - For he shall not much remember the days of his life; because God answereth him in the joy of his heart.
Sometimes you can get healed, not by saying in your mind 'I forgive, I forgive' but by just having a life, living it, and not letting yourself be distracted by past hurts. But this is not always possible.
In the analogy I used about cutting my finger, part of my body's ability to "forgive" the injury involved my whole body as a support system. If one member suffer, all members suffer with it, right? A medical person could explain it better, but when my finger was freshly cut, then the rest of my body sent nutrients or something to that area to speed up the healing process. I think it's easier to forgive if you are part of a body of people with a support system. We don't have twi any more, but many of us have moved on to SOMETHING else like that. GSC, perhaps.
I have rarely asked God to help me forgive somebody/something. I can still work myself into a rage over something that happened decades ago if I let myself. I just don't think I should have to not be able to get through a day without thinking about stuff that is painful. I see no point in that.
Or it could also be.... that being ignorant of Satan's devices comes when we fail to heed the warning of scripture that tells us to leave these guys alone. Stay away, avoid them....DANGER WILL ROBINSON...this is in part so we don't even get into a situation where we are confused by trying to forgive them for something God Almighty is not even going to forgive them for. False teachers disguise themselves angels of light. Tricky thing... thinking you are not forgiving a true brother.
And forgiving false teachers has nothing to do with emotion or your personal healing. God has to deliver us from the pit they lead us into and that begins with recognition of who they really are.
We become ensnared and we become blinded by false teachers and false doctrine. It takes hearing about the reality of these men...their doctrines...and definitely their lives to help us begin...untangling.
The Apostle Paul spoke more about the lives of false teachers, their immorality, and their wickedness than he did about their doctrines.This is what really exposes them for who they are! They lead people away from Jesus Christ and salvation and their behavior is a reflection of this truth . This isn't about someone breaking a 10 commandment. This is serious. We stay away in part because THAT itself is judgment. Staying away...leaving them alone....avoiding them. That is part of their judgment.
Jesus unleashed when God was being dishonored. Doesn't Jesus have forgiveness, compassion, and mercy? You bet. What did Jesus say their judgment was going to be? What did Paul say their judgment was going to be? What did Peter say their judgment was going to be? Were they supposed to forgive them?
Instead of we deciding who it is that is going to be forgiven....why don't we actually look at the scriptures and let them speak? Maybe we should know exactly what it is we are trying to forgive? It is not a question of moving on with our lives....we have to do that no matter what.....but it is God who has to deliver us.
We don't have the power to forgive them their offense against God and sadly. . . . . we are a part of that offense against God because we are the ones they lead astray. We can now actually heed the warning in scripture and stay away from them. We can actually ask God to forgive us for leading others into TWI. Signing them up for the class...
If we know how bad it really is....we can repent!! If we don't know what we were involved in....than we are not going to repent.
IF we confess our sins, He IS faithful and just to forgive us.
Jesus didn't say things like it is better for a millstone to be hung around their necks for nothing. God's greatest wrath is reserved for these guys.
This whole post reminds me of the random article I read yesterday. When you click forums there are a few random articles you can read if you want. Yesterday's included a staff meeting in 1996. LCM went on and on about how the devil spirit realm was trying to take over the ministry by people refusing to change their personal habits and becoming contaminated. And how people will become indignant when reproved and say I'm righteous who are you to tell me this or that. This was LCMs rationalization for the debt purge, the homo purge, the planning your day to 15 minute increments, reporting back...all the control measures because we gotta keep the household clean for Jesus, y'know.
The part of LCMs sermon that really stood out was when he said he hated hearing celebrity athletes on TV say "don't give up on your dream". Who cares about your dream? What's GOD'S dream? THAT'S what we shouldn't give up on! So we're all just robots for God, huh? That's where this witch hunt mentality leads. No thanks.
This whole post reminds me of the random article I read yesterday. When you click forums there are a few random articles you can read if you want. Yesterday's included a staff meeting in 1996. LCM went on and on about how the devil spirit realm was trying to take over the ministry by people refusing to change their personal habits and becoming contaminated. And how people will become indignant when reproved and say I'm righteous who are you to tell me this or that. This was LCMs rationalization for the debt purge, the homo purge, the planning your day to 15 minute increments, reporting back...all the control measures because we gotta keep the household clean for Jesus, y'know.
The part of LCMs sermon that really stood out was when he said he hated hearing celebrity athletes on TV say "don't give up on your dream". Who cares about your dream? What's GOD'S dream? THAT'S what we shouldn't give up on! So we're all just robots for God, huh? That's where this witch hunt mentality leads. No thanks.
I love it when you attack me personally....I must be doing something right.......so, are you saying the scriptures don't speak at length about false teachers, their judgment, their morality, and warn us? Am I making it up? Or is it that VP doesn't qualify....what scripture really is saying is all about the Pastors who live Godly lives then?
Oh, that's right...you think when Paul draws a contrast between fruit of the Spirit and lust of the flesh it isn't a contrast, simply a continuation. That's right, you believe when the epistle Titus is speaking of evil doers Paul is speaking of Christians. Wasn't it you who said Jesus forgave the Pharisees from the cross...was that before or after he accused them of the unforgivable sin? It was you who accused Billy Graham of idolatry I think...yes? Pretty sure it was you who blithely excused pornography among "Believers" after you accused seminary students of not being subject to the word of God and assigned less than noble motives to Seminary Profs....Yesterday, I was hanging out with a few of them for awhile. Made me think of you and your accusation, for about a second, before I went back to a lovely time of fellowship. Wasn't it you who pitifully tried to draw a parallel between David and VP? Yeah it was you. I could go on...but, you speak so well for yourself.
Yeah....definitely doing something right. Lest we forget....you were the one who said God found my attitude disgusting...I just didn't know it. That is what happens when someone steps on the toes of your idol...your teeth come out.
Oh yes, and that I live in a religious dream because I say the scriptures define morality for us....Oh yeah, that's right....those pesky morals are man made according to you.....
Almost forgot.... my favorite...your fascinating take on being aware of sin....that one speaks for itself.
Geisha779: I am genuinely confused by why someone would think Jesus forgave them.
Jesus bore our sins, all of us, me, you, and hitler and vp, and the scribes and pharisees, too, and therefore when he said, "forgive them father for they know not what they do," it's forgiveness for all of us, not only the soldiers who beat him and parted his garments. My opinion is that to shrink these words of Jesus to refer only to the immediate few that were there with scourges and hammers in hand at this most crucial hour in the His-story of the world is not correct.
Jesus' forgiveness does not condone or in any way depreciate the wickedness (he paid the full price for hit), Jesus' forgiveness was the requirement for His enduring relationship with His Father.
No one can hold any grudge against another and have the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's an "either or" proposition, in my opinion.
Jesus bore our sins, all of us, me, you, and hitler and vp, and the scribes and pharisees, too, and therefore when he said, "forgive them father for they know not what they do," it's forgiveness for all of us, not only the soldiers who beat him and parted his garments. My opinion is that to shrink these words of Jesus to refer only to the immediate few that were there with scourges and hammers in hand at this most crucial hour in the His-story of the world is not correct.
Jesus' forgiveness does not condone or in any way depreciate the wickedness (he paid the full price for hit), Jesus' forgiveness was the requirement for His enduring relationship with His Father.
No one can hold any grudge against another and have the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's an "either or" proposition, in my opinion.
If Jesus is going to forgive everyone then why is there a resurrection of the unjust?
Also, why is it automatically assumed that if someone has not forgiven someone for a wrong they perpetrated then there is a grudge?
With God people have to ask to be forgiven and forgiveness is showered with great love on the person. But with people it's supposed to be different?
This is my complaint with the forgive everybody doctrine and perhaps what I am about to say is forgiveness. I have not forgiven Rosalie and her cohorts that attacked me and my family without cause. BUT - I am not going to exact revenge on them neither do I hold a grudge, nor am I bitter. I simply recognize that there is an unsettled account between us that will have to wait for Jesus the righteous judge to settle.
But I will not clear their name, and I will tell my story as a warning to others about their true character and nature as false teachers, prophets.
Jesus bore our sins, all of us, me, you, and hitler and vp, and the scribes and pharisees, too, and therefore when he said, "forgive them father for they know not what they do," it's forgiveness for all of us, not only the soldiers who beat him and parted his garments. My opinion is that to shrink these words of Jesus to refer only to the immediate few that were there with scourges and hammers in hand at this most crucial hour in the His-story of the world is not correct.
Jesus' forgiveness does not condone or in any way depreciate the wickedness (he paid the full price for hit), Jesus' forgiveness was the requirement for His enduring relationship with His Father.
No one can hold any grudge against another and have the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's an "either or" proposition, in my opinion.
What is God's requirement for forgiveness? What do we have to do to be forgiven? Does God say....no problem....everyone is forgiven? Everyone is covered, but what must they do because the price was so high? Because it cost so much. Do we have to believe on the one He sent? Honor Him with our lives? Place our faith in Him and believe in the sacrifice?
God's love is unconditional in that He gave His Son to cover the sins of the world.....God's forgiveness is conditional on a few things though. That is the gospel.
I love it when you attack me personally....I must be doing something right.
quote: I could go on..
So could I. But why bother. We disagree on so many levels. We are NOT going to connect. That's why I don't try to deconstruct everything you say that I disagree with. I didn't even quote LCM verbatim, but that was an eye opener. I spent several months directly dealing with twi's attempt to break apart my family in the name of "purifying the household" per LCM. The last twi guy I talked to was the limb leader of MI who told me I was too dangerous for him to "turn loose on the HOUSEHOLD"! Then 5 years later he himself leaves twi saying he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years.
Perhaps it was trigger happy of me to compare you with LCM. You seem to have a life AND a support system which you enjoy. I have no problem with that.
I know this horse has been beaten to death by now, but I have been wondering, did anyone actually look at what Jesus said about forgiveness?
If we are to forgive like God forgives then we should know exactly how is it God does forgive. Does He require anything first? Does God forgive those who refuse to repent and accept Jesus as Savior, according to scripture....No. According to scripture that repentance also means change.
Acts 26:20 "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds."
Jesus said...unless you repent, you will all perish as well. How about those who don't think they even need forgiving? Does God forgive them? According to scripture...No. Jesus spent a great deal of time speaking about this in the parables.
Didn't Jesus say about offenses . . . .
" If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and comes back to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." Just like God does it.
Old Skool made me think of this when he asked why it was different for God than it was people. (Thanks) Ephesians 4:32 is a familiar retemory. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. How did God forgive us?
We are to love our enemies. Sometimes when someone is stiff necked(for lack of a better word) the loving thing to do is rebuke them...and wait until a change comes to forgive them. It doesn't mean we don't love them. Sometimes, we love them enough to care about what they are doing. Just like God does.
And out of genuine confusion I have to ask..... how is forgiving someone for yourself...so you can move on, even if they don't want it or are not sorry or even think they wronged us, how is that loving, and really, how is that even forgiveness? That just makes it all about you. You can move on anyway...God is able to deliver you.
God is every bit as much a just God as He is a God of love. We should actually like that about Him...it is who He is.
I don't get it.. . . . . But, the topic has pretty much been beaten to death and I helped.:)
"LCM went on and on about how the devil spirit realm was trying to take over the ministry by people refusing to change their personal habits and becoming contaminated. And how people will become indignant when reproved and say I'm righteous who are you to tell me this or that. This was LCMs rationalization for the debt purge, the homo purge, the planning your day to 15 minute increments, reporting back...all the control measures because we gotta keep the household clean for Jesus, y'know."
LCM became a first rate horse's as s over the years and received full certification after taking over for VPW. Comparing his M.O. with anything else is like comparing the Three Stooges act to a football's team playbook. Based on "principles" that allowed for any flight of fancy to become his latest revelation from god he developed a history of activity that would rival a bee's flight pattern for twists and turns. What made sense to him was what he made make sense to himself that week.
It's misguided to compare scriptural guidance with his hide-and-seek games. Of course he diverted attention to things that didn't amount to a pile of pig swill while screwing other's wives and living like a fatted calf off the usury of the sweat of others.
He didn't concern himself with the work of a pastor, teacher or minister, he beat people over the head with directives designed to denigrate and demote anything that might have turned into real prosperity and value while promoting carefully crafted campaigns that wouldn't be worth the virtual paper it takes to describe them were it not for the fact that they remain even still today the lowest of the lowest points in his putrid past of pilfering and plundering the good names, character and virtue of those who, given even the smallest amount of help and assistance one might expect from a "ministry" that claimed to hold forth the Word of God, could have benefited from that very help had it been there.
I could never compare his misguided and maniacal "home purge" with any kind of honest, intelligent and scriptural evaluation. He was an idiot waiting for the next bomb to drop that he was never going to see coming because he was too busy strutting and dancing. I would never confuse what the bible teaches with what he did. Doesn't make sense.
Because he was a spiteful small minded toad doesn't mean that making decisions and judgment based on clear teaching from the bible wrong.
Geisha779: I have tried to address Jesus Christ's most monumental statement of forgiving: "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" and that in my opinion Jesus Christ is speaking of all people who have ever lived and who ever will live and maybe dogs and cats who sin too. I'm not real sure about that one though, even though I know dogs and cats and pet parakeets will be in heaven and therefore they must have chosen to be good here on earth, which means they must have had the opportunity to sin and therefore Jesus took their sins, too. Please don't try to take that one to the bank. It sounds good but could be just a joke.
But Jesus Christ did take all our sins and griefs to the cross. He suffered and died for all of us.
In my opinion, forgiveness about the forgiver. God in Jesus Christ made a great ocean of forgiveness available. And when we forgive, we are in agreement with God that that ocean of forgiveness is available to them.
When I forgive, I am not condoning belittling anyone's wickedness, I am simply agreeing with God that the ocean of forgiveness God has given us in Jesus Christ is theirs for the asking. I am not standing in the way. I am not holding any grudges against any because I need to stay in that ocean of forgiveness myself, and from there I can say anyone else is welcome to dive in. Because I am surrounded in this ocean of forgiveness by God's forgiveness, I can only remain in here as I am forgiving.
Additionally, for me to judge anyone who I think is more vile than me is a joke because the Good Lord constantly affirms to me that without Him I am a wretch like the song says. I've got this arthritis and without the Good Lord's help and strength and support and everything, I can't even walk up a flight of stairs. I am frequently reminded of the story of the mote and the beam when I get to looking at someone else with a supercilious stare. I have two aunts who had alzheimer's and figure if I can still add two and two I'm in the category of "grace abounding." I know that I cannot go two steps or think two things without the help of the Lord, therefore I just got to have Him there, and it takes forgiveness to keep in His presence. It's worth it to me.
Mark 11:25,26:
25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7:1-5
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? <A name=5>
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Luke 6:37
37Judgenot, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
I don't subscribe to a logical premise that "because the Way said it/taught it/looked at it once" it must therefore be wrong, or if and even if it isn't it would have been wrong if they'd so much as looked at it because VPW and therefore anyone or anything that looked at, saw once or listened to ever even a little bit of what he taught or anyone that said what he said or would have if he'd had the chance to say it and so it would therefore by virtue of association and infiltration be forever tainted and consequently to be avoided as if it were from the Devil's own iPod.
But yeah, I wouldn't toss that cake out simply because he didn't like cake nor would I eat it simply because he didn't like it. Any knee jerk reaction to cake will be messy at the least and that just won't cut it. The cake.
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bowtwi
This might seem more appropriate for the Doctrinal forum, but please bear with my preference to see it here. I believe that The Way screwed up hugely where forgiveness is concerned and many of us hav
Kit Sober
Received an email today with the lesson of the Honey Bee as a comparison to anger and how anger destroys the Honey Bee. The honey bee (or any bee I think) in his wrath sticks his stinger into a perso
Oakspear
In case anyone doesn't already know, I am neither a Christian nor an atheist, but I do have some opinions about forgiveness. For day-to-day small stuff, I find that it's not worth the effort to thin
So_crates
Or, just to maintain the clever alliteration (definition): weird wired weirwille way wetware (definition).
SoCrates
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Ham
Well, I'm back. I fought the bears, wild animals and other unsavory elements to acquire da beer.
Any of you with a last name starting with "W". I'd stand aside.. or wear a raincoat..
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Ham
Wierwille was a dick. And a very small one, at that. "here am I, serve me." I hope his descendants don't relish in the same opinion..
"wish" would be a nice thought..
some have expressed sentiments to me otherwise..
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Twinky
God expects us to forgive, out of thankfulness for what we have been forgiven for.
But at human level - we can't demand forgiveness from anyone. We can ask for it, expect it... but demand it? No. That would be like tearing the wings off a butterfly and wondering why it didn't flutter round any more.
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" means, I think, that the perpetrators of heinous acts don't understand the big picture, they don't understand God's plan, they have no in-depth spiritual perception and awareness. Sure, they know what their physical actions are. But they don't understand what their actions mean, or the repercussions from their actions.
Again, like a little kid pulling the wings off a butterfly - knows he's doing it, but doesn't understand what the purpose of the wings is, how they work.
Now why don't perpetrators have the proper understanding?
One reason might be simply lack of willingness at purely physical level to understand what they're doing. Lack of empathy. Lack of consideration. Or misguidedness based on wrong information.
Another reason might be that their minds are so spiritually blinded (aka, possession) that the necessary part of their brain really doesn't function correctly. They genuinely believe that what they are doing is for the best in whatever part of their brain is still "thinking." So they have to be forgiven for [allowing themselves to be] being spiritually deceived.
I always thought that those words at the crucial time of the crucifixion were JC's acknowledgment of the spiritual forces in play at the time. This was the great battle of good and evil, and the human actors were just bit players and as dispensible as the clothes they wore. That was why he sought forgiveness for them - for their very human frailty.
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Ham
forgiveness is a holy place..
How does one deal with this..
there have been times in my life..
I wish I could just..
well, I did it. Just grab onto the frigging road worn scammer long enough to GIVE them exactly what it was they were desperately trying to scam me out of..
maybe in some ways I am the same..
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Ham
maybe the question should be..
I am an eternal (whatever fate you assign it..
what are you?
who, what are you..
don't ask the question lightly..
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Ham
I keep getting Scientology advertisements at the bottom of the page..
whoo hoo. we are all one, we are all the light..
friggin idjits. I won't pay them a single frigging penny for this wonderful revelation..
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OldSkool
So, was Jesus speaking to the roman soldiers that parted his garment? ... or ... the pharisees that condemned him?
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geisha779
I had to repent of my sins with God to be forgiven. I need a Savior who stood in my stead........I had to recognize I needed Him and acknowledge who He was.
With the parable of the Grumbling Pharisees.......(that is who Jesus is speaking to with the parable of the Prodigal Son).. . . . Jesus forced them to acknowledge that it was better for a repentant sinner than for someone who denies being a sinner and hides behind a facade of hypocrisy.
I have never heard someone say Jesus forgave the Pharisees from the cross. Was He forgiving them for being of their father the devil? Did He take back telling them they were not entering into the Kingdom of heaven? That was pronouncing a judgment.
Matthew 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Jesus did forgive those Pharisees who came to Him and He even ate with some of them......Peter actually got on Jesus for offending the Pharisees. . . . . but, not all of them came to Him. The ones who did...He forgave.
They were all offered forgiveness time and again, but, they didn't think they needed it.
How do we know about the unforgivable sin....it is through the actions and hearts of the Pharisees.
I am genuinely confused by why someone would think Jesus forgave them.
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OldSkool
Thank you. You have clarified this, and made my point better than I could have ever enunciated it.
Jesus forgave the hapless dolts that were used by the false prophets that he so often condemned.
Yet, me neighborhood offshoot would tell me that I am supposed to forgive them......
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Kit Sober
I really respect you Oldskool. Being able to differentiate between who has the responsibility to forgive what was something that the Bible clearly teaches -- and what was especially appealing to me about Catholics: I only confess my own sins. A priest does not want to hear me "confess" anyone else's sins.
Jesus could forgive people's sins because he was the Son of God. But except for him, the forgiving I see must be to "whoever you have ought against." (Mark 11:25,26) -- From what Jesus says, unforgiveness is holding anything at all against someone. It is so important that we don't hold anything at all against anyone if we want our own sins forgiven. ("25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.")
That old prayer seems most appropriate to me, "Dear Lord, I am doing ok right now but I will need Your help from here on out because I'm going to get out of bed now." Also I find myself in need of forgiveness on a minute by minute basis. I remember reading an article about Mother Teresa in a Catholic periodical by an ordinary Catholic writer, and she mentioned that Mother Teresa, after the interview asked her if she would hear her confession (Mother Teresa was really a nice person!!!!!). But it so impressed me that if Mother Teresa was in need of confession "right now" then surely it's not a stretch to understand that I do also, and "right now" is really good to get it. Therefore I must keep my forgiveness current as well.
I know that 2 Corinthians 2:11, "Lest satan should get advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices" is in the context of forgiveness -- "us" get taken advantage of when we fail to forgive.
Thanks for listening to me. What a treasure that is: to be able to speak and to be heard by someone. Thanks so much, Pawtucket et al.
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geisha779
Or it could also be.... that being ignorant of Satan's devices comes when we fail to heed the warning of scripture that tells us to leave these guys alone. Stay away, avoid them....DANGER WILL ROBINSON...this is in part so we don't even get into a situation where we are confused by trying to forgive them for something God Almighty is not even going to forgive them for. False teachers disguise themselves angels of light. Tricky thing... thinking you are not forgiving a true brother.
And forgiving false teachers has nothing to do with emotion or your personal healing. God has to deliver us from the pit they lead us into and that begins with recognition of who they really are.
We become ensnared and we become blinded by false teachers and false doctrine. It takes hearing about the reality of these men...their doctrines...and definitely their lives to help us begin...untangling.
The Apostle Paul spoke more about the lives of false teachers, their immorality, and their wickedness than he did about their doctrines.This is what really exposes them for who they are! They lead people away from Jesus Christ and salvation and their behavior is a reflection of this truth . This isn't about someone breaking a 10 commandment. This is serious. We stay away in part because THAT itself is judgment. Staying away...leaving them alone....avoiding them. That is part of their judgment.
Jesus unleashed when God was being dishonored. Doesn't Jesus have forgiveness, compassion, and mercy? You bet. What did Jesus say their judgment was going to be? What did Paul say their judgment was going to be? What did Peter say their judgment was going to be? Were they supposed to forgive them?
Instead of we deciding who it is that is going to be forgiven....why don't we actually look at the scriptures and let them speak? Maybe we should know exactly what it is we are trying to forgive? It is not a question of moving on with our lives....we have to do that no matter what.....but it is God who has to deliver us.
We don't have the power to forgive them their offense against God and sadly. . . . . we are a part of that offense against God because we are the ones they lead astray. We can now actually heed the warning in scripture and stay away from them. We can actually ask God to forgive us for leading others into TWI. Signing them up for the class...
If we know how bad it really is....we can repent!! If we don't know what we were involved in....than we are not going to repent.
IF we confess our sins, He IS faithful and just to forgive us.
Jesus didn't say things like it is better for a millstone to be hung around their necks for nothing. God's greatest wrath is reserved for these guys.
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johniam
When one is injured physically, healing doesn't occur instantaneously. Our bodies have to process the injury so that the healing replaces that which was lost. About a year ago I was doing a window cleaning job which required the use of a 6" wide razor blade. I was holding the razor, a squeegee, and a strip washer in the same hand at one point. I ended up cutting my left index finger between the 1st and 2nd sections of the finger. Ouch.
It took me 2 hours just to stop the bleeding. I could continue working, but for more than a week I had to constantly change bandages, apply triple antibiotic ointment, etc. To this day I feel numbness if I touch the place where the skin was broken, although I still enjoy full use of the finger/hand. But it took time for my body to "forgive" the injury. I believe that when we are hurt inside, our minds/souls require time to process these injuries as well. You can't just think a thought like flipping on or off a light switch and expect immediate healing. There's a part of the process, though, where, IMO, forgiveness is the best medicine.
Each person has his/her own way of dealing with this stuff. One verse that rings true for me is...
Eccl.5:20 - For he shall not much remember the days of his life; because God answereth him in the joy of his heart.
Sometimes you can get healed, not by saying in your mind 'I forgive, I forgive' but by just having a life, living it, and not letting yourself be distracted by past hurts. But this is not always possible.
In the analogy I used about cutting my finger, part of my body's ability to "forgive" the injury involved my whole body as a support system. If one member suffer, all members suffer with it, right? A medical person could explain it better, but when my finger was freshly cut, then the rest of my body sent nutrients or something to that area to speed up the healing process. I think it's easier to forgive if you are part of a body of people with a support system. We don't have twi any more, but many of us have moved on to SOMETHING else like that. GSC, perhaps.
I have rarely asked God to help me forgive somebody/something. I can still work myself into a rage over something that happened decades ago if I let myself. I just don't think I should have to not be able to get through a day without thinking about stuff that is painful. I see no point in that.
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johniam
This whole post reminds me of the random article I read yesterday. When you click forums there are a few random articles you can read if you want. Yesterday's included a staff meeting in 1996. LCM went on and on about how the devil spirit realm was trying to take over the ministry by people refusing to change their personal habits and becoming contaminated. And how people will become indignant when reproved and say I'm righteous who are you to tell me this or that. This was LCMs rationalization for the debt purge, the homo purge, the planning your day to 15 minute increments, reporting back...all the control measures because we gotta keep the household clean for Jesus, y'know.
The part of LCMs sermon that really stood out was when he said he hated hearing celebrity athletes on TV say "don't give up on your dream". Who cares about your dream? What's GOD'S dream? THAT'S what we shouldn't give up on! So we're all just robots for God, huh? That's where this witch hunt mentality leads. No thanks.
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geisha779
I love it when you attack me personally....I must be doing something right.......so, are you saying the scriptures don't speak at length about false teachers, their judgment, their morality, and warn us? Am I making it up? Or is it that VP doesn't qualify....what scripture really is saying is all about the Pastors who live Godly lives then?
Oh, that's right...you think when Paul draws a contrast between fruit of the Spirit and lust of the flesh it isn't a contrast, simply a continuation. That's right, you believe when the epistle Titus is speaking of evil doers Paul is speaking of Christians. Wasn't it you who said Jesus forgave the Pharisees from the cross...was that before or after he accused them of the unforgivable sin? It was you who accused Billy Graham of idolatry I think...yes? Pretty sure it was you who blithely excused pornography among "Believers" after you accused seminary students of not being subject to the word of God and assigned less than noble motives to Seminary Profs....Yesterday, I was hanging out with a few of them for awhile. Made me think of you and your accusation, for about a second, before I went back to a lovely time of fellowship. Wasn't it you who pitifully tried to draw a parallel between David and VP? Yeah it was you. I could go on...but, you speak so well for yourself.
Yeah....definitely doing something right. Lest we forget....you were the one who said God found my attitude disgusting...I just didn't know it. That is what happens when someone steps on the toes of your idol...your teeth come out.
Oh yes, and that I live in a religious dream because I say the scriptures define morality for us....Oh yeah, that's right....those pesky morals are man made according to you.....
Almost forgot.... my favorite...your fascinating take on being aware of sin....that one speaks for itself.
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Kit Sober
Jesus bore our sins, all of us, me, you, and hitler and vp, and the scribes and pharisees, too, and therefore when he said, "forgive them father for they know not what they do," it's forgiveness for all of us, not only the soldiers who beat him and parted his garments. My opinion is that to shrink these words of Jesus to refer only to the immediate few that were there with scourges and hammers in hand at this most crucial hour in the His-story of the world is not correct.
Jesus' forgiveness does not condone or in any way depreciate the wickedness (he paid the full price for hit), Jesus' forgiveness was the requirement for His enduring relationship with His Father.
No one can hold any grudge against another and have the presence of the Holy Spirit. It's an "either or" proposition, in my opinion.
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OldSkool
If Jesus is going to forgive everyone then why is there a resurrection of the unjust?
Also, why is it automatically assumed that if someone has not forgiven someone for a wrong they perpetrated then there is a grudge?
With God people have to ask to be forgiven and forgiveness is showered with great love on the person. But with people it's supposed to be different?
This is my complaint with the forgive everybody doctrine and perhaps what I am about to say is forgiveness. I have not forgiven Rosalie and her cohorts that attacked me and my family without cause. BUT - I am not going to exact revenge on them neither do I hold a grudge, nor am I bitter. I simply recognize that there is an unsettled account between us that will have to wait for Jesus the righteous judge to settle.
But I will not clear their name, and I will tell my story as a warning to others about their true character and nature as false teachers, prophets.
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geisha779
What is God's requirement for forgiveness? What do we have to do to be forgiven? Does God say....no problem....everyone is forgiven? Everyone is covered, but what must they do because the price was so high? Because it cost so much. Do we have to believe on the one He sent? Honor Him with our lives? Place our faith in Him and believe in the sacrifice?
God's love is unconditional in that He gave His Son to cover the sins of the world.....God's forgiveness is conditional on a few things though. That is the gospel.
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johniam
quote:
I love it when you attack me personally....I must be doing something right.
quote: I could go on..
So could I. But why bother. We disagree on so many levels. We are NOT going to connect. That's why I don't try to deconstruct everything you say that I disagree with. I didn't even quote LCM verbatim, but that was an eye opener. I spent several months directly dealing with twi's attempt to break apart my family in the name of "purifying the household" per LCM. The last twi guy I talked to was the limb leader of MI who told me I was too dangerous for him to "turn loose on the HOUSEHOLD"! Then 5 years later he himself leaves twi saying he'd been following a lunatic for 6 years.
Perhaps it was trigger happy of me to compare you with LCM. You seem to have a life AND a support system which you enjoy. I have no problem with that.
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geisha779
I know this horse has been beaten to death by now, but I have been wondering, did anyone actually look at what Jesus said about forgiveness?
If we are to forgive like God forgives then we should know exactly how is it God does forgive. Does He require anything first? Does God forgive those who refuse to repent and accept Jesus as Savior, according to scripture....No. According to scripture that repentance also means change.
Acts 26:20 "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds."
Jesus said...unless you repent, you will all perish as well. How about those who don't think they even need forgiving? Does God forgive them? According to scripture...No. Jesus spent a great deal of time speaking about this in the parables.
Didn't Jesus say about offenses . . . .
" If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and comes back to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." Just like God does it.
Old Skool made me think of this when he asked why it was different for God than it was people. (Thanks) Ephesians 4:32 is a familiar retemory. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. How did God forgive us?
We are to love our enemies. Sometimes when someone is stiff necked(for lack of a better word) the loving thing to do is rebuke them...and wait until a change comes to forgive them. It doesn't mean we don't love them. Sometimes, we love them enough to care about what they are doing. Just like God does.
And out of genuine confusion I have to ask..... how is forgiving someone for yourself...so you can move on, even if they don't want it or are not sorry or even think they wronged us, how is that loving, and really, how is that even forgiveness? That just makes it all about you. You can move on anyway...God is able to deliver you.
God is every bit as much a just God as He is a God of love. We should actually like that about Him...it is who He is.
I don't get it.. . . . . But, the topic has pretty much been beaten to death and I helped.:)
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socks
"LCM went on and on about how the devil spirit realm was trying to take over the ministry by people refusing to change their personal habits and becoming contaminated. And how people will become indignant when reproved and say I'm righteous who are you to tell me this or that. This was LCMs rationalization for the debt purge, the homo purge, the planning your day to 15 minute increments, reporting back...all the control measures because we gotta keep the household clean for Jesus, y'know."
LCM became a first rate horse's as s over the years and received full certification after taking over for VPW. Comparing his M.O. with anything else is like comparing the Three Stooges act to a football's team playbook. Based on "principles" that allowed for any flight of fancy to become his latest revelation from god he developed a history of activity that would rival a bee's flight pattern for twists and turns. What made sense to him was what he made make sense to himself that week.
It's misguided to compare scriptural guidance with his hide-and-seek games. Of course he diverted attention to things that didn't amount to a pile of pig swill while screwing other's wives and living like a fatted calf off the usury of the sweat of others.
He didn't concern himself with the work of a pastor, teacher or minister, he beat people over the head with directives designed to denigrate and demote anything that might have turned into real prosperity and value while promoting carefully crafted campaigns that wouldn't be worth the virtual paper it takes to describe them were it not for the fact that they remain even still today the lowest of the lowest points in his putrid past of pilfering and plundering the good names, character and virtue of those who, given even the smallest amount of help and assistance one might expect from a "ministry" that claimed to hold forth the Word of God, could have benefited from that very help had it been there.
I could never compare his misguided and maniacal "home purge" with any kind of honest, intelligent and scriptural evaluation. He was an idiot waiting for the next bomb to drop that he was never going to see coming because he was too busy strutting and dancing. I would never confuse what the bible teaches with what he did. Doesn't make sense.
Because he was a spiteful small minded toad doesn't mean that making decisions and judgment based on clear teaching from the bible wrong.
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Ham
sounds like a fair statement..
just because he used a torch to "finish off" cake recipes, does not make all cakes evil and possessed and all..
so cakes outside of *ministry* confinement just might just be OK?
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Kit Sober
Geisha779: I have tried to address Jesus Christ's most monumental statement of forgiving: "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" and that in my opinion Jesus Christ is speaking of all people who have ever lived and who ever will live and maybe dogs and cats who sin too. I'm not real sure about that one though, even though I know dogs and cats and pet parakeets will be in heaven and therefore they must have chosen to be good here on earth, which means they must have had the opportunity to sin and therefore Jesus took their sins, too. Please don't try to take that one to the bank. It sounds good but could be just a joke.
But Jesus Christ did take all our sins and griefs to the cross. He suffered and died for all of us.
In my opinion, forgiveness about the forgiver. God in Jesus Christ made a great ocean of forgiveness available. And when we forgive, we are in agreement with God that that ocean of forgiveness is available to them.
When I forgive, I am not condoning belittling anyone's wickedness, I am simply agreeing with God that the ocean of forgiveness God has given us in Jesus Christ is theirs for the asking. I am not standing in the way. I am not holding any grudges against any because I need to stay in that ocean of forgiveness myself, and from there I can say anyone else is welcome to dive in. Because I am surrounded in this ocean of forgiveness by God's forgiveness, I can only remain in here as I am forgiving.
Additionally, for me to judge anyone who I think is more vile than me is a joke because the Good Lord constantly affirms to me that without Him I am a wretch like the song says. I've got this arthritis and without the Good Lord's help and strength and support and everything, I can't even walk up a flight of stairs. I am frequently reminded of the story of the mote and the beam when I get to looking at someone else with a supercilious stare. I have two aunts who had alzheimer's and figure if I can still add two and two I'm in the category of "grace abounding." I know that I cannot go two steps or think two things without the help of the Lord, therefore I just got to have Him there, and it takes forgiveness to keep in His presence. It's worth it to me.
Mark 11:25,26:
25And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 7:1-5
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? <A name=5>
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Luke 6:37
37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
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socks
I don't subscribe to a logical premise that "because the Way said it/taught it/looked at it once" it must therefore be wrong, or if and even if it isn't it would have been wrong if they'd so much as looked at it because VPW and therefore anyone or anything that looked at, saw once or listened to ever even a little bit of what he taught or anyone that said what he said or would have if he'd had the chance to say it and so it would therefore by virtue of association and infiltration be forever tainted and consequently to be avoided as if it were from the Devil's own iPod.
But yeah, I wouldn't toss that cake out simply because he didn't like cake nor would I eat it simply because he didn't like it. Any knee jerk reaction to cake will be messy at the least and that just won't cut it. The cake.
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