Forgiveness

[johniam]

Did he?

[waysider]

Of course he did, John.

If he didn't, you and I were following the ministry of a man who "didn't know what he was doing".

Is that how you like to think of yourself? As someone who followed the guidance of someone who didn't know what he was doing? Do you really think that silly "answer a question with a question" nonsense will fly here?

Edited March 1, 2011 by waysider

[So_crates]

Did Saint Vic know what he was doing? I'd say yes.

He manage to tell everybody outside the inner circle to keep their pants zipped and their wick dry. This tells me he knew right from wrong.

Yet, he was unremorseful. Of all the people he hurt, all the women he raped, is there one story where he tried to make things right?

So where does this idea of forgiveness come from. Forgiveness goes to people who are remorseful and repentant. Saint Vic was neither. If you read the POOP paper, he was ready to fix the whole thing and start anew. Defiant until the day he died.

Like I said, the easiest way to see what Saint Vic teached is to look at LCM. LCM owes everything he is to Saint Vic. Saint Vic taught him everything he knows. If Saint Vic taught da verd, LCM would be manifesting fruits of the spirit rather than works of the flesh.

Rather than constantly ice skating uphill, which is what your doing when you defend Saint Vic, I would encourage you to ferret out the truth and figure out who your defending.

SoCrates

Edited March 1, 2011 by So_crates

[Kit Sober]

Forgiveness isn't about the one who hurt you. Forgiveness is about releasing the life of the Lord Jesus in our own life.

Where would Cori Ten Boom be if she had not decided to forgive that murderer who killed her sister and others in the concentration camp?

Cori Ten Boom was required by the Lord to forgive the Nazi war criminal, not because he asked for forgiveness but because forgiveness is the nature of the Lord.

When The Lord Jesus said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," He issued forgiveness for of us whose sins and griefs tortured him unto death, it was our sins and griefs He bore.

When we forgive we are carrying the Lord's presence in the world.

Forgiveness is not about the murderers and tortured, it is about the tortured ones. If we are to live and have the life of God released in us, we must forgive. It's an either/or proposition. We either forgive or we live without the Lord.

Sid Roth's guest this week, 2/28 to 3/6/11 Brian Adams here has a ministry of delivering people who are bound by unforgiveness.

Abuse and cruelty run rampant in twi and in many other places in the world but to refuse to give pays the torturer twice. Once when he physically and mentally abuses and then again when the tortured one refuses to forgive and thereby retains a double punishment.

On the glory side of the ledger: To forgive is to take the place of the Lord in the world and the benefits of this is unfathomable.

[chockfull]

On the glory side of the ledger: To forgive is to take the place of the Lord in the world and the benefits of this is unfathomable.

Kit, no offense on all your forgiveness stuff, but honestly I've had just about enough of those professing to "take the place of the Lord in the world". They are an obnoxious lot.

I'd rather just myself be a simple Christian person and let the Lord be Lord without anyone needing to take His place.

[geisha779]

Concerning VP & TWI......Genuine curiosity here....what did Jesus say about forgiving false teachers? Their sin is really against God. Do we forgive them their sin against God? Is that really possible? Does God forgive them or hold a special judgment in reserve for them? Do we stop pointing to the poison they spread? Stop warning others?

Are we supposed to forgive them?

Jesus said "Leave them." The phrase in Romans 1 that we are familiar with from TWI...."God gave them up" is the same Greek phrasing/wording...as "Leave them".

Matthew 15:13.He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. ¹⁴ Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit."¹⁵ Peter said, "Explain the parable to us." ¹⁶ "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them. ¹⁷ "Don't you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? ¹⁸ But the things that come out of a person's mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. ¹⁹ For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. ²⁰ These are what defile a person; . . . .

False teachers fall into a very special category in scripture. It does not tell us to forgive them. It warns us to avoid them.

When we do become ensnared....as we did...God is still able to deliver us from the pit they lead us into.

Edited March 2, 2011 by geisha779

[geisha779]

And just my own personal observation as a Christan. "Leave them" is about the worst phrase you want to hear come out of Jesus.

[Kit Sober]

Chockfull. One awesome thing (among many) about this Greasespot Cafe, is that we are all allowed our opinions. You are allowed yours and I am allowed mine. For my opinion I have no power or anything outside of Christ. WIthout Him I am completely helpless.

Geisha: "Leave them" is exactly what we did. Forgiveness is how we complete that "leaving." When forgiveness fills our thoughts and our emotions that are directed towards who we have "left" we can truly "leave". Forgiveness allows us to shake the dust off and move forward without being bound to the torturer. For me it has taken supernatural strength and the power not of mysefl but of the Lord Jesus to want to forgive and to be able to forgive. I find that when and where I forgive I break apart the bondage of oppression and have that peace promised.

Edited March 2, 2011 by Kit Sober

[geisha779]

Geisha: "Leave them" is exactly what we did. Forgiveness is how we complete that "leaving." When forgiveness fills our thoughts and our emotions that are directed towards who we have "left" we can truly "leave". Forgiveness allows us to shake the dust off and move forward without being bound to the torturer. For me it has taken supernatural strength and the power not of mysefl but of the Lord Jesus to want to forgive and to be able to forgive. I find that when and where I forgive I break apart the bondage of oppression and have that peace promised.

I don't ever really get a chance to tell you this, but I greatly appreciate your posts and your heart.

If I were not to forgive others as the Lord commands....I would be telling Him I know better than He and although I have supposedly placed all my faith in Him, I will go my own way on who I forgive. I don't want to do that. It would mean that I have forgotten what I have been forgiven for.

I have prayed many times with a burdened heart for those who are held prisoner, as well as their guards and captors. I really do understand what you are telling me.

In the same way that I would be telling the Lord I am not listening to Him by doing as He commands......if I were to do something extra biblical and venture where I am warned not to go.....I would still be telling Him I know best.

Jesus said about false teachers... "leave them alone." It means the same thing as when God says He "gives them up". God does do that....He gives people up to their own devices."

False teachers fall into a very specific category in scripture. We are warned to "avoid such men." The Lord said "Leave them alone.".

There is a reason for that. This is not a position we should be in......trying to forgive them. Scriptures warnings are there for a reason.

You know, people who persecute and torture Christians or others.....kill the body. False teachers steal the soul. How do we forgive that? We don't. We trust God to deal with them and we do what He says...."Leave them alone."

Edited March 2, 2011 by geisha779

[johniam]

quote: Of course he did, John.

If he didn't, you and I were following the ministry of a man who "didn't know what he was doing".

Is that how you like to think of yourself? As someone who followed the guidance of someone who didn't know what he was doing? Do you really think that silly "answer a question with a question" nonsense will fly here?

Did he? The Jews Jesus prayed about knew what they were doing PHYSICALLY. They knew that by having Jesus arrested, having an illegal trial late that night, having a second trial during the next morning in which they put burlap bags over his head and blugeoned him and taunted him to identify his attacker, then taking him to Pilate, to Herod, then back to Pilate, then waiting one more day, then gleefully watching him get crucified while taunting him yet again...they KNEW that this would cause him to suffer and die...YET Jesus said they didn't know what they were doing. They didn't know that their actions were opposed to the God they claimed to serve and worship.

Forgiveness is first for YOU! If you can't or won't forgive, then you are saying to all who see you that YOU are in bondage.

Silly? Answer a question with a question is silly?

Matt.15:1-3 - Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees which were of Jerusalem saying, why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

It wasn't silly to Jesus. It wasn't silly to them, either; they got offended (v.12).

Titus1:10,11 - For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

This verse is talking about born again ones in the fellowship; people who "had the class". Every place I lived in twi there seemed to be a pocket of believers who were always at odds with leadership, always making trouble just to make trouble. Notice it doesn't say "whose cash flow must be stopped", it says "mouths". Jesus did this a lot by answering a question with a question.

Mark 12:13-17 - and they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master we know that thou atr true, and carest for no man, for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth; is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, why tempt ye me? Bring me a penny, that I may see it. And they brought it. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? And they say unto him, Caesar's.And Jesus answering, said unto them, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

It goes on like that, and finally...

verse 34b - And no man after that durst ask him any question.

In other words, their mouths were stopped. Silly, huh?

[Ham]

do you thinks "mouths are stopped here" because you asked a silly question in response to a question?

[geisha779]

Luke 23:34 isn't found in many of the early manuscripts. Similar to other verses that TWI correctly pointed out were not in many early manuscripts. Which is not really a great feat....any good study bible will tell you this.

It is interesting to note though that when Jesus said this....Father forgive them.....the next sentence is "And they divided up his clothes by casting lots." Who divided their clothes? The soldiers who crucified Him. What makes it so interesting and what is pretty amazing is that in verse 47 of the same chapter it tells us ⁴⁷Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, "Certainly this man was innocent!". The Centurion, who praised God, BELIEVED and he would have been a Roman soldier. There is a school of thought which states the Centurion would have been speaking for all the soldiers present at the crucifixion.

Here is what Jesus did say to the Pharisees.....

³⁴Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. ³⁵The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. ³⁶So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. ³⁷I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. ³⁸I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father." ³⁹They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, ⁴⁰but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. ⁴¹You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, "We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God." ⁴²Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, forI came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. ⁴³Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. ⁴⁴You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. ⁴⁵But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. ⁴⁶Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? ⁴⁷ Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Taking one verse at the end of Jesus ministry and saying that nullifies everything else He taught......isn't a good idea.It also denies the attribute of God which is He is just.

Titus 1 10, 11.....is speaking of false teachers. Claiming this is speaking of believers is actually just revealing what one truly believes about God. They may have taken "The Class" that would surely fit. But, it is not speaking of Christians. It speaks to our responsibility in opposing false teachers and factious members in the church. These people are self-condemned. Judaizers(Circumcision party) is similar to what Paul was dealing with else where. Timothy dealt with them in Ephesus.

Edited March 2, 2011 by geisha779

[OldSkool]

My experiences with people telling me to forgive the way international for the evils they have inflicted on me were the same people running an offshoot and endeavoring to use Victor Paul Wierwille's name and "works."

While the way international is mostly irrelevant to me now because I have walked away there is an unsettled account that is not mine to forgive. Since they claim to be the "ruling" ministries and ministers of the Lord Jesus Christ, then they can settle that account with the one they claim to work for.

Edited March 2, 2011 by OldSkool

[Kit Sober]

forgiveness and leaving. I don't think a person can leave and truly escape the torturer without forgiveness. At first I tried one little forgiving and could feel a tentacle come off me, like a tent stake stuck into me. It was such a relief!

Forgiving in no way reduces the crime committed, in fact I believe it puts the crime more completely on the criminal. Before forgiving, the tortured carries the criminal around all the time, somehow sharing and increasing the horrors of it (like a woman who has been physically and mentally abused by her husband and then, even though he was incarcerated and no longer a threat, she develops a phobia to the degree that she cannot leave her house, which is the story that Brian Adams relates on the Sid Roth video segment). Forgiveness sets the captives free.

Forgiveness isn't about setting vp or lcm free, it's about setting us, the victims, free from the lingering effects of their crimes (and those of others who have abused us, and even forgiving ourselves for our own crimes).

Edited March 2, 2011 by Kit Sober

[OldSkool]

Ya, that's real similar to the teachings in this particular offshoot. As I said, the way international is largely irrelevant to me so there are no tentacles attached. And the account is not mine to forgive.

[geisha779]

Verses in scripture are not just stand alone verses........it is a mistake to take one section of scripture and build a theology. Even the verses in which Jesus taught forgiveness do not stand alone.....they must be taken with the whole.....with all scripture, everything Jesus said and did....and with the whole nature of God.

Look at proverbs 26 4, 5. These verses are opposed to each other. One can take either one and make a case. One could start a church based on the folly of fools. They contradict each other. Take a look at what they are addressing.

Who says God doesn't have a sense of humor.

4.Do not answer a fool according to his folly,

or you yourself will be just like him.

⁵ Answer a fool according to his folly,

or he will be wise in his own eyes.

[chockfull]

forgiveness and leaving. I don't think a person can leave and truly escape the torturer without forgiveness. At first I tried one little forgiving and could feel a tentacle come off me, like a tent stake stuck into me. It was such a relief!

Dude, I mean I get where you are coming from. From my perspective I forgave the old dead lecher for his erroring ways, and the stooge stand-in for his - both relatively a non issue as they didn't really do any of that to me or people close to me. Then I forgave all the wicked and unreasonable idiots who did do things to impact me and mine. That was a little more difficult as there is always personal baggage in those scenarios. But the upshot was I'm a lot happier to have suffered and to now be free than I would be to not have suffered and still be enslaved by them. I guess that's the verse "all things work together for good for them who love the Lord".

But at this point now going back over and over this stuff again just brings it back to my memory, which until now was remarkably clear from all this stuff.

I still have to call the old lecher a lecher, and the stooge a stooge, and the hag a hag, and the middle management of which I was a part of a bunch of brainwashed zealots. I guess that is part of speaking the truth about things.

Shoot, I even forgive you for continuing to beat on this horse which has not shown any signs of life for quite some time now.

[T-Bone]

Of course he did, John.

If he didn't, you and I were following the ministry of a man who "didn't know what he was doing".

Is that how you like to think of yourself? As someone who followed the guidance of someone who didn't know what he was doing? Do you really think that silly "answer a question with a question" nonsense will fly here?

Interesting how vp [who wanted to be known as "the teacher"] would come up with such an ingenious diversionary tactic as "answer a question with a question". …. Figures – it would come in handy now and then since he was always running his Drambuie Intake Valve to hide incompetence or to avoid giving a simple HONEST answer.

[So_crates]

Forgiveness does not mean you forget what happened. It means you learned your lesson and won't let it happen again.

If a theif robs my house, because I left the door open, I can forgive the theif, but that doesn't mean I'm going to continue leaving my front door open. And just because I forgave the theif, that doesn't mean I won't call him a theif anymore.

Two things that always annoy me are the people who preach forgiveness and the people that preach positve thinking. In there context, what they usually mean is forget what happened so we can set you up to be a sucker again.

SoCrates

[OldSkool]

Two things that always annoy me are the people who preach forgiveness and the people that preach positve thinking. In there context, what they usually mean is forget what happened so we can set you up to be a sucker again.

SoCrates

Yep!! Enter the offshoots and their need to excitedly propound forgiveness!

[So_crates]

Yep!! Enter the offshoots and their need to excitedly propound forgiveness!

Makes you wonder what's going through the leadership in the offshoots minds: sure we love people taking 10% of our income--and the return on our investment: face-meltings, deceit, micromanaging our lives. Sure..where's the green card? (sarcastic smiley..we really need one)

TWI and TWI2 are among the few places where you could treat your customers like crap and still make a killing.

SoCrates

Edited March 2, 2011 by So_crates

[Ham]

I dunno. I find it enlightening.. how the successors of vic's dogma DEMAND forgiveness. Well, practically. "Jesus says we HAVE to."

Kit Sober is not included here..

at least in my thoughts.

A gentle suggestion is one thing..

there is something in proverbs about that..

as far as offshoots, to me it isn't a matter of forgiveness. More of a matter of TRUST.

Why.. should I trust you..

you haven't anywhere near come to terms with your true origins.

ESPECIALLY sowers. You think gramps adulterous abusive romp in the body of Christ to be so *special*. A "success.."

you STILL call him "the Man of gawd"..

tell me if I'm mistaken.

[Ham]

Why.. should I trust you..

for that matter.. why should anyone else?

[Ham]

well.. what can I say.

another beer, and..

drunk squirrels will urinate on your "heritage"..

sorry I'm so bad..

[Ham]

I'm going for another beer. Be right back.

B double E double R U N, beer run..