Forgiveness

[bowtwi]

This might seem more appropriate for the Doctrinal forum, but please bear with my preference to see it here. I believe that The Way screwed up hugely where forgiveness is concerned and many of us have suffered because of it regardless of their intentions.

My intention is to give anyone who would be so inclined as to consider these words the opportunity to do so and I think more people would see it here than in the Doctrinal forum.

I personally was devastated by TWI having marked and avoided my son and me, falsely accusing us. I was told that we had been turned over to Satan and that God would not even spit in our direction. Forgiveness has been a huge hurdle for me in my life.

Today I'm thankful to report that not only do I faithfully attend the church of my choice, but I was recently voted in as an elder of my church and am invited to teach regularly - ANYTHING I want to share and nobody previews it at all. This invitation came after I was asked to give my testimony (I had to have a discussion to be sure I knew what they meant by the word "testimony") and beginning immediately after that service requests were made of me to speak at a community christian women's event and I've been treated with great respect by "real" clergy people and I'm even included in the ministers' breakfast meetings. What I presented on forgiveness was to an audience of 120 people.

My denomination has scholarships available for people like me so now I'm getting to unlearn the wrong teaching I learned in The Way and all the money that The Way kept when they tossed us out (and I know I agreed that if for any reason they kicked us out I would not get it back) doesn't feel like a loss anymore. My denomination is happy to sponsor me in a 3-year theology college that isn't even a requirement for a lay minister license! I just feel it's best for me to take the classes so I have a systematic way to study and unlearn or relearn as I see fit. I'm now getting to do what I set out to do when I signed on for the Way Corps. Talk about restoring that which the locusts have eaten!!!

So, forgiveness. Here's what I shared with my congregation this week:

Right smack in the middle of the Lord's Prayer is a beautiful treasure. Matt 6:12 And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.

Jesus was giving an example of how to pray. He didn't just say and forgive us our debts. He didn't instruct them to vainly repeat this exact prayer. This was an example of how to pray.

He said And forgive us our debts AS we forgive our debtors.

That sets a condition. We're literally asking God to forgive us our debts the same way we forgive our debtors. We're setting the standard we'd like God to forgive us by.

The way we treat others has a direct impact on our relationship with God.

As long as we harbor unforgiveness toward others we'll never grow spiritually.

Unforgiveness is like spiritual junk food - temporarily satisfying but really harmful in the long run.

Unforgiveness is like me drinking poison and expecting the one who hurt me to die.

Ray Pritchard said in The Healing Power of Forgiveness that there are four different words for forgiveness in the Bible - 3 Hebrew and one Greek words.

The first Hebrew word means "to cover" - like using a rug to cover the dirt on your floor.

The second one means "to lift and take away" - which happens when you remove a stain from a carpet.

The third word means "to pardon" or "to wipe the record clean."

The fourth word means "to let go" or to "send away" as when you release a prisoner from jail.

When you put these words together you get a graphic picture of forgiveness. God covers our sin, He removes the inner stain, He wipes our personal record clean, and then He releases us from our guilt so we are set free. Hallelujah!!!

In Isaiah 44:22 God blots out our sins as a thick cloud.

In Jeremiah 31:34 God forgets our sins and remembers them no more.

In Isaiah 3:17 God puts our sin behind His back.

In Micah 7:19 God buries our sins in the depths of the sea

In Psalm 103:12 God removes our sin as far as the east is from the west.

Here's what Jesus said about why we should forgive others:

Do not judge and you will not be judged. Do not condemn and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)

and

If you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. (Matthew 6:14-15)

The greatest, most profound statement on this topic in the entire Bible - the finest, purest, brightest example of forgiveness - came from Jesus Himself. When He hung on the cross dying, condemned to death by evil men who plotted to murder Him and produced lying witnesses to convict Him, as He surveyed the howling mob assembled to cheer His suffering, Jesus the Son of God, the One who knew no sin, the only truly innocent man who ever walked this sin-cursed planet, uttered some words that still ring across the centuries: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing (Luke 23:34).

Many of us say, "If only the people who hurt me would show some remorse, some sorry, then maybe I would forgive them.' But that rarely happens and we use other people's inaction to continue in our bitterness, our anger and our desire to get even.

Consider Jesus. No-one seemed very sorry. Even as He said those words the crowd laughed, mocked, cheered and jeered. Those who passed by hurled insults at Him. They taunted Him, "If you're the King of Israel, come down from the cross and save Yourself."

Let's be clear on this point: When He died, the people who put him to death were quite pleased with themselves. Pilate washed his hands of the whole sordid affair. The Jewish religious leaders hated Him with a fierce, irrational hatred. They were happy to see him suffer and die.

No-one said, "I was wrong. This is a mistake. We were such fools." And yet, He said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

This is precisely what we must say if we are going to follow Jesus. We must say it to people who hurt us deliberately and must say it to those who casually and thoughtlessly wound us. We must say it to those closest to us, to our husband or wife, to our children, to our parents, to our friends, to our neighbors, to our brothers and sisters, to our fellow Christians.

Some things forgiveness does not mean:

It does not mean approving of what someone else did.

It does not mean pretending that evil never took place.

It does not mean making excuses for other people's bad behavior.

It does not mean justifying evil so that sin somehow becomes less sinful.

It does not mean overlooking abuse.

It does not mean denying that others tried to hurt you repeatedly.

It does not mean letting others walk all over you.

It does not mean refusing to press charges when a crime has been committed.

It does not mean forgetting the wrong that was done.

It does not mean pretending you were never hurt.

It does not mean you must restore the relationship to what it was before.

It does not mean you must become friends again.

It does not mean there must be a total reconciliation as if nothing ever happened.

It does not mean that you must tell the person you have forgiven them.

It does not mean that all negative consequences of sin are canceled.

Forgiveness, in its essence, is a decision to refuse to live in the past. It's a conscious choice to release others from their sins against you so that you can be set free. It doesn't deny the pain or change the past, but it does break the cycle of bitterness that binds you to the wounds of yesterday. Forgiveness allows YOU to let go and move on and grow spiritually.

Forgiveness isn't an optional part of the Christian life. It is a necessary part of what it means to be a Christian. If we're going to follow Jesus, we must forgive. We have no other choice. And we must forgive as God has forgiven us - completely, freely, graciously, totally. The miracle we have received we pass on to others.

We will forgive to the extent we appreciate how much we've been forgiven. The best incentive to forgiveness is to remember how much God has already forgiven us. Think of how many sins He has covered for you. Think of the punishment you deserved that didn't happen to you because of God's grace. Jesus said, "He who has been forgiven little loves little." (Luke 7:47) Your willingness to forgive is in direct proportion to your remembrance of how much you have been forgiven.

In order to experience the healing power of forgiveness, we need two things: soft hearts and courage. Some of us have been so deeply hurt by what others have done to us. In response we chose to become hard on the inside to protect ourselves from any further pain. But that hardness has made it difficult for us to hear the gentle call of the Holy Spirit. We need soft hearts to hear His voice. And then we need courage. The timid will never forgive. Only the brave will forgive. Only the strong will have the courage to let go of the past.

Mother Teresa said, "It is by forgiving that one is forgiven."

Edited November 22, 2010 by bowtwi

[Shellon]

Well now~!

I love it, I just love it. And my pride in your learning and understanding and personal growth makes my blood pumper swell up all sweet like.

Having hung around the same silly place you did for too many years, I totally understand that we have had to undo some shi+ they crammed down our throats like 3 weeks of left over turkey recipes and I'm PROUD OF US for our overcoming, our still thankful hearts and our willingness to rise above and beyond their bull and prevail.

Forgiveness is one of those ideas that seem impossible to too many and that's an added burden that can be overcome as well.

I worry after those that refuse to forgive cuz I'm dang sure they need to be forgiven a time or 429,400 in their lives as well and what if the one they wish would forgive them refuses like they do/did?

YIKES !

It's most difficult, oh yeah, I know it.

But refusing to carry heavy piles of hurt and anger and understanding that while we don't find forgiveness for someone, that someone isn't even giving us a second's thought. What a waste of precious time that we don't have a promise we get tomorrow.

Excellent sharing, Box.

[Watered Garden]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!

And I like Eph 4:32: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

There is indeed freedom in forgiving - the anger and pain and loss are no longer there. The chains are broken.

Thank you so much for posting this.

WG

[socks]

Good job kiddo. Your gift has found suitable lodging!

And I agree completely with the content of your "testimony", both the sentiment and the foundation for it.

Forgiveness is indeed a part of a way of life, the Way of Jesus Christ, and that way is both narrow and direct.

Your expression of this is worth more eyes on it. Mind if I pass it on, as is, when appropriate?

[bowtwi]

Don't mind a bit, in fact I'm delighted you'd want to.

I happen to come from a family of PROfessional grudge holders. Why, if you were mad at someone, I'd carry YOUR grudge and make it mine! In fact, my own sister has been carrying a grudge the way our mama taught us and was recently asked why she was so mad and she had to say that she couldn't remember WHY, just THAT she was mad. And she remains mad at that person still!

So this stuff has really set me free. I've always known it was godly to forgive and really, the right thing to do, and that it didn't mean I had to actually restore the person I was mad at to their former place in my life, but I was keeping score like my life depended on it. Now I realize that my life depends on me letting go of that stuff. Sheesh, it's really much nicer living this way.

WG - I had that verse in my original notes and somehow missed it in the final draft - I'll add it into the teaching for future opportunities. I've been asked to share that with another group and now it'll be even better. I really love that verse in the King James. Thanks!

Oh, by the way, Socks - this wasn't my "testimony". I guess I hadn't posted that. I'll have to dig it out. Looks like bowtwi week at greasespotcafe. nyuk, nyuk, nyuk - notice, I didn't just say bowtwi day...

[Dot Matrix]

Bow:

GREAT TOPIC!!! AND GREAT TEACHING!!!

I always had this silly notion that trix were for kids... Oh Wait, wrong topic. I had this notion that if I had to "forgive" someone I had to erase everything, the history, the wrong, and reinstate them. And this shows you do not have to do that. I believe forgiveness has been a misunderstood topic and stood in the scripture mocking us as we gather on both sides of the argument ~ do I HAVE to forgive if they do not ask? I do not think you do, but do you want to carry around that person’s toxic waste forever? So, we can learn to forgive because we learn to "love."

I love this list you gave Bow:

Some things forgiveness does not mean:

It does not mean approving of what someone else did.

It does not mean pretending that evil never took place.

It does not mean making excuses for other people's bad behavior.

It does not mean justifying evil so that sin somehow becomes less sinful.

It does not mean overlooking abuse.

It does not mean denying that others tried to hurt you repeatedly.

It does not mean letting others walk all over you.

It does not mean refusing to press charges when a crime has been committed.

It does not mean forgetting the wrong that was done.

It does not mean pretending you were never hurt.

It does not mean you must restore the relationship to what it was before.

It does not mean you must become friends again.

It does not mean there must be a total reconciliation as if nothing ever happened.

It does not mean that you must tell the person you have forgiven them.

It does not mean that all negative consequences of sin are canceled.

I have forgiven many a person who I have not reinstated to their former position in my life. Do I love and pray for them, sure thing! But I can't surround myself with people who historically "hurt, lie, cheat or steal" from me.

Tim Sullivan (former 10th corps) went to Ruwanda where the Tutsis and the Hutus were. Recall that horrific slaughter where the Hutus would do dastardly things against the Titus the least of which was not carve babies out of pregnant mothers killing both mother and child?

So, Our (brave) Tim is over there in a church where the Tutsis and the Hutis are both parishioners. And the Titus have been crippled, killed, maimed and defeated by the Hutus. And the Hutus in the church were then victimizing the Tutsis by telling them “They have to forgive them.” Like Jesus commands you forgive us. All with out a heartfelt repentance.

Tim Sullivan stood before this church and taught on love, repentance and forgiveness. It is not entitlement. If the wrong doer genuinely repentance then a real Christian can genuinely offer forgiveness. And if the Christian offers forgiveness without being asked for it; it is a noble and loving act on behalf of the Christian ~ which is still not entitlement on behalf of the wrong doer.

Tim if you are out there, my brother, please add to this or correct anything I reported incorrectly.

From an article to refresh our memories:

The Hutus carried out these killings of a most brutal nature on their compatriot Tutsis of all ages and gender, and numerous elite Hutu politicians have been found guilty for the organization of the genocide. The Rwandan Military and Hutu militia groups systematically set out to murder all the Tutsis they could capture. Hutu civilians also participated in the killings and were instructed to kill their Tutsi neighbors. Most nations evacuated their nationals from Kigali and abandoned their embassies in the initial stages of the violence, including France.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Dot Matrix

[newlife]

Great teaching......thank you for sharing your heart.....

[chockfull]

Cool post bowtwi.

Inspired me to look up the 4 different words for forgiveness. I found the one in the Lord's prayer - Matt 6:12 - it maps up to the fourth definition you brought up - "to let go" or "send away". Greek word aphiemi - from "a" and "hiemi" - to send.

The detail in the scriptures to me points to the direction that our forgiveness towards the people that have abused us in the past is more in the category of distancing ourselves from the debt/sin as opposed to excusing their behavior and continuing to enable them.

All your "it does not mean" seem to be helpful little implementation guidelines, if not exact scripture.

[Linda Z]

Great teaching, Bow!

[krys]

Thank you!

[ClayJay]

I have nothing to Add to that BowTwi. It was so succinct and to the point covering so many aspects that I copied it so I can send it to my wife at work. Most excellent, and thank you! :)

[GarthP2000]

Just a few curious questions here. (Yes folks, one of the vile village atheists is speaking up. )

What exactly is it that 'forgiveness' is supposed to accomplish? What does it do; towards/in regards to the perp, that is? Does that relieve them of their responsibility/culpability of the crime(s)/transgression(s)? (In that account in Matthew(?) that seems to be the case, yet people today don't seem to make that particular connection.)

And why should forgiveness be _required_? "You need to give said perp forgiveness, and God _requires_ it!" I always thought that forgiveness is where you _give_ absolution to the transgressor, and you did it with a _giving_ heart. If you _have_ to give, then it's not giving, ... right?

And what about people who 'ask for forgiveness', ie., expect to get it, so that they get out of being responsible for what they did? Are you still obliged to give them the forgiveness anyway? Knowing that they are just looking for a way out of being held accountable for what they did?

Just a few questions that I think people should seriously consider, ... even if it challenges what they are told to believe.

[Calavicci]

Why indeed.

There is no explanation of forgiveness that is viable to the atheist, as far as I can see.

Debating questions of faith-based morality with an atheist is much like trying to debate the merits of Mozart with a shark.

No point.

If one does not believe in God, or any externally-based faith system, then one must fall back to belief systems that are arbitrary in origin and materialistic in nature.

Try "situational ethics".

For the devout atheist, I recommend evolutionary psychology, and human biodiversity.

Lots of fodder for those whose religion is atheism, and who bow before the altar of Darwinism...

Edited November 23, 2010 by Calavicci

[bowtwi]

Just a few curious questions here. (Yes folks, one of the vile village atheists is speaking up. )

What exactly is it that 'forgiveness' is supposed to accomplish? What does it do; towards/in regards to the perp, that is? Does that relieve them of their responsibility/culpability of the crime(s)/transgression(s)? (In that account in Matthew(?) that seems to be the case, yet people today don't seem to make that particular connection.)

And why should forgiveness be _required_? "You need to give said perp forgiveness, and God _requires_ it!" I always thought that forgiveness is where you _give_ absolution to the transgressor, and you did it with a _giving_ heart. If you _have_ to give, then it's not giving, ... right?

And what about people who 'ask for forgiveness', ie., expect to get it, so that they get out of being responsible for what they did? Are you still obliged to give them the forgiveness anyway? Knowing that they are just looking for a way out of being held accountable for what they did?

Just a few questions that I think people should seriously consider, ... even if it challenges what they are told to believe.

I can only answer for myself but I'll be glad to try to explain to you how I see it. I'll use a real life example from my own experience.

About 6 years ago I bought a van from a guy. It was a used van. He wanted $3,000 for it and offered to accept $100 monthly payments. I paid the entire $3,000 in one lump sum. Within a few weeks I got a newer car with a better heater that suited my need better. The man told me he wished he hadn't sold the van, he missed it. I offered it back to him at the same deal he had offered me.

I had to chase after him to get the 3 payments he did make. He took the van across country and had a great old time driving it into the ground and never has made another payment to this very day. I felt taken advantage of. I resented that he would treat me that way, especially when I'd not only paid him what he wanted for it (didn't even dicker to try and get a better deal), but I paid the entire deal in one shot. Today he has yet to pay the remaining $2700 he promised he would pay me.

Pretty soon I heard he's going here and there, spending money on luxuries, yet not paying me back what he had promised and he had the van! I heard him say that he's giving to charities which really bothered me because he owed me money and wouldn't give it to me, yet was acting like he had extra money to give to others. I heard that he's telling other people about purchases he's making. I found myself really starting to get mad to think that this man who had appeared to be a friend to me at one point and signed a contract promising to make payments every month to me now was going around spending money like a guy who didn't owe me anything.

Other people that I know and respect think this guy is a man of his word. I know he's not. This ate at me like crazy. Not only did I find myself building resentment, but I actually started thinking evil of this guy. I got so mad I wanted to call his new wife and tell her what a rat she was married to. This guy was taking up space in my brain that wasn't his to have. I had to forgive him in order to get him out of my thoughts.

I didn't forgive him so he can get away with owing me $2700. He still owes me the money. What he doesn't have is room in my thoughts. I didn't let him off the hook and say that it's okay with me. What I did was stop letting him have any control in my life. I no longer care that he's a deadbeat liar. My forgiving him doesn't change the fact that he cheated me out of my deserved money. I just took away his ability to make me feel bad because he's chosen to be a schmuck.

He still has done what he's done. He still will have to answer one day for that action if he makes it to heaven. He claims to be a Christian so I imagine that's what'll happen. I imagine he'll have to answer to God for what he did to me.

Me forgiving him does not bring him back to a place in my life where he can ever trick me out of money or anything else ever again. But now I don't feel like if I hear of him doing anything at all that I wish he would pay me back so I can stop thinking about this money. He is still someone I won't invite to anything I'm a part of.

But I no longer think about the possibility of him manning up to his promise to me. I no longer have any expectations of him.

This isn't about him. This isn't for him. This is about me and for me. I claim to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ. I am endeavoring to follow His example of when he was on that cross and He said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do." He forgave them anyway. I believe I can too. That's how I see the requirement to forgive. It's about me and my peace of mind.

He doesn't have the power to affect me either way anymore. I used to think if only he'd pay me back then this would be better or that would be better. I wouldn't think he's such a rat. Now it doesn't matter whether he does anything at all. I took his power away to affect my life.

This is no different than if I want to eat a good meal I have to cook it. I'm okay with cooking it so that I can then enjoy it.

This frees ME up. This frees MY ENERGY up to do better things with myself and for myself and those I come in contact with.

The right thing to do is always the right thing to do. He still should pay me back and live up to his word but the fact that he hasn't and isn't going to no longer takes up any space in my thoughts.

Does that clear anything up for you?

Edited November 23, 2010 by bowtwi

[bowtwi]

Also, I believe the Bible to be true.

I believe it where it says in Mark 11:26 "When you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." I want my sins forgiven so I believe I'm required to forgive others their sins against me.

and Ephesians 4:32 says "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

Since I believe these, I'm trying to live up to them. I'm certainly not perfect, but I'm doing my best.

Edited November 23, 2010 by bowtwi

[GarthP2000]

Wow! Evidently I pushed _someone's_ buttons.

((snickers)) Notice folks, that he provides absolutely _no_ valid and logical explanations to my questions whatsoever. His beliefs are 'externally-based faith' based and thus, NO logic or rational thought is required or needed ... or wanted. And apparently scrutinizing for said valid and logical explanations is (to him/her) comparable to "debating the merits of Mozart with a shark" and "falling back to belief systems that are arbitrary in origin and materialistic in nature".

... and all of this based on because his faith instructs him so. ... And he obeys it without question. <_<

Anybody _else_ want to take a stab at the questions that I posted, ... questions that I (apparently) have no qualms about asking because I think that they are valid and honest questions.

P.S., From your status update, I see that you're still in TWI, ... and thus your type of response is to be expected. ((sigh))

[GarthP2000]

Bowtwi,

Now _you_ gave me a more detailed (and not a self-righteous) answer. I look at things a tad differently, in that you can still not have someone 'take up brain space' and your time, and still not forgive him. That incident in Matthew, where the king forgave that guy his loan (ie., where the guy didn't have to pay the king back)? You said that you forgave the guy, but that he was still obligated to pay it back anyway. ... You didn't 'forgive' him, you just don't take up every waking moment in your day thinking about him.

See, I see forgiveness that is often something that is vague, and often manipulated for the perp's own purposes, and the kind of forgiveness that I would throw out like a sack of trash with no repentance in doing so.

There are also times where people apply forgiveness and it becomes beneficial, particularly in regards to offenders who still maintain some decency and endeavor to make right by others. At that point, it then becomes a virtue for all concerned.

Thank you for taking time to explain your view to this 'shark'. <_<

[Abigail]

Okay, Garth, I'll take a crack at it.

Just a few curious questions here. (Yes folks, one of the vile village atheists is speaking up. )

What exactly is it that 'forgiveness' is supposed to accomplish?

It allows the person injured to move past the injury and forward in life.

What does it do; towards/in regards to the perp, that is?

Depends on the situation. Forgiveness may do absoultely nothing for the "perp" or it may alleviate the perp from feelings of guilt or shame. Example: I forgive my sister for yelling at me. We both now feel better. Example: I forgive someone who hurt me long ago in my past, but never actually express that forgiveness to the person: It does nothing for them, but it still helps me move past the injury and forward with life.

Does that relieve them of their responsibility/culpability of the crime(s)/transgression(s)? (In that account in Matthew(?) that seems to be the case, yet people today don't seem to make that particular connection.)

No. People are always responsible for the choices they make. Forgiveness may relieve them of some of their feelings of guilt and shame, but it does not relieve them of responsibility.

And why should forgiveness be _required_? "You need to give said perp forgiveness, and God _requires_ it!" I always thought that forgiveness is where you _give_ absolution to the transgressor, and you did it with a _giving_ heart. If you _have_ to give, then it's not giving, ... right?

We have to give it not because it gives absolution to the trnasgressor, but because it gives absolution to the person forgiving.

And what about people who 'ask for forgiveness', ie., expect to get it, so that they get out of being responsible for what they did? Are you still obliged to give them the forgiveness anyway? Knowing that they are just looking for a way out of being held accountable for what they did?

Forgiveness does not alleviate responsibility. See answers above.

I would also add, forgiveness comes in many forms and can take days, weeks, years, decades. We all forgive in our own way and in our own timetable. Much like we all grieve the loss of a loved one in our own way, in our own timetable, etc.

Just a few questions that I think people should seriously consider, ... even if it challenges what they are told to believe.

and for the record . . . I never believe something simply because I am told to believe it. Not anymore. Been there, done that, have no interest in repeating it.

[bowtwi]

Bowtwi,

Now _you_ gave me a more detailed (and not a self-righteous) answer. I look at things a tad differently, in that you can still not have someone 'take up brain space' and your time, and still not forgive him. That incident in Matthew, where the king forgave that guy his loan (ie., where the guy didn't have to pay the king back)? You said that you forgave the guy, but that he was still obligated to pay it back anyway. ... You didn't 'forgive' him, you just don't take up every waking moment in your day thinking about him.

See, I see forgiveness that is often something that is vague, and often manipulated for the perp's own purposes, and the kind of forgiveness that I would throw out like a sack of trash with no repentance in doing so.

There are also times where people apply forgiveness and it becomes beneficial, particularly in regards to offenders who still maintain some decency and endeavor to make right by others. At that point, it then becomes a virtue for all concerned.

Thank you for taking time to explain your view to this 'shark'. <_<

I was expecting for years that he would pay me back. I kept hoping he would keep his word and pay me back. I really couldn't believe that he wasn't going to pay me back. What's changed is that I no long have expectations of him paying me back. I no longer believe he will.

IF he were to pay me back, I would not only be very surprised, but I would see him a little differently. I still wouldn't trust him but I wouldn't think that he had stiffed me. That may not seem like much difference to you, but it does to me.

Either way, I'm no longer expecting anything from him so he can't disappoint me anymore. He could only accomplish inspiring me to distrust him a little less.

But I believe he still has to answer someday for how he treated me.

I don't think you're a shark. I think you have a different opinion and belief system than I do. That's okay with me. I don't expect everyone to think as I do. I'm no longer in a cult and I'm working pretty steadily at dropping the cult's ways of thinking as I discover that I'm still thinking their way - I like to think that I'm getting back to thinking my way.

Wow, Abi - if I hadn't already posted and read your response, I wouldn't have posted anything at all.

You really answered Garth's questions well - thanks!!!

[Twinky]

Great preaching/teaching, Bowtwi.

How some love to harbor grudges (unforgiveness). What a waste of time and effort.

Let it go, and travel light.

Philippians 4:8 American Standard Version Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

If you do, you won't have time to bear grudges or be unforgiving.

[Ham]

Generally speaking.. I'd choose my grudge carefully. Usually one cannot hold more than one, and give the other its proper attention..

[ClayJay]

Mr. Ham, And......

[chockfull]

Bowtwi,

Now _you_ gave me a more detailed (and not a self-righteous) answer. I look at things a tad differently, in that you can still not have someone 'take up brain space' and your time, and still not forgive him. That incident in Matthew, where the king forgave that guy his loan (ie., where the guy didn't have to pay the king back)? You said that you forgave the guy, but that he was still obligated to pay it back anyway. ... You didn't 'forgive' him, you just don't take up every waking moment in your day thinking about him.

Garth,

I have a more similar gut feel to you on this in that all the general "forgiveness" talk seems to veer towards enabling abusers. But I couldn't get around the standard in the Lord's prayer that God forgives us with the same standard we forgive others. I think you have to really be careful about defining your terms using the english word "forgiveness" or you really get off the mark.

See, I see forgiveness that is often something that is vague, and often manipulated for the perp's own purposes, and the kind of forgiveness that I would throw out like a sack of trash with no repentance in doing so.

I agree. So in the Lord's prayer - forgive only means to send away or distance yourself from the abuse, as opposed to keeping yourself attached to it opening up an avenue for bitterness to grow and consume your life. In exact terms it does not mean erasing the sin or debt of others, as God Himself only has the power to do this.

There are also times where people apply forgiveness and it becomes beneficial, particularly in regards to offenders who still maintain some decency and endeavor to make right by others. At that point, it then becomes a virtue for all concerned.

Thank you for taking time to explain your view to this 'shark'. <_<

Good point - when people specifically come to you and ask forgiveness, you can specifically grant it to them, show mercy, and all benefit. This is a great thing.

[chockfull]

Great preaching/teaching, Bowtwi.

How some love to harbor grudges (unforgiveness). What a waste of time and effort.

Let it go, and travel light.

Philippians 4:8 American Standard Version Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

If you do, you won't have time to bear grudges or be unforgiving.

Twinky,

You are right in what you are sharing. I personally have a little cringe reaction when hearing that verse in conjunction with forgiveness teachings, not because it is inaccurate or out of context, but simply because I have heard that particular verse used extensively by top TWI leadership to try to convince people to continue to endure the abuse they were doling out, or to sweep evil under the carpet.

How did this work? Well, for example - VPW / LCM were sexual predators, but some would quote this verse and tell you just to focuse on that which is honorable, just, pure, lovely, of good report. As opposed to focusing on what those guys were doing. If all do this, then there is no accountability and leaders can do what they wish.

I have also heard this used to excuse a myriad of lesser types of abuses as well.

But besides that point, I don't want to belittle the truth of what you are sharing. To me there is a good concept in all of this, and one that is helpful. My memories that I choose to hold on to are constructed of exactly those Phil. 4:8 things. Otherwise I would be tempted to be unhappy with my life and choices.

[Bolshevik]

Generally speaking.. I'd choose my grudge carefully. Usually one cannot hold more than one, and give the other its proper attention..

That's why there's the "Book of Life" . . . a way of not only remembering grudges, but spreading them to others . . . fresh blood can look people up on the system, see if someone else is M&A or not standing etc, and behave accordingly . . . maybe that's more of a feud . . . passed on from generation to generation . . .