I also am sick of talking about what we were just talking about.
Both of these patterns have been dominating lately.
What do you all say we call a truce and gather our thoughts to think of more important things than me or how we all talk to each other?
I've got my backlog of items from this thread that I consider important to my message. I'd like to just work on them for a while and then resurface over in the Doctrinal forum.
Why don't we wrap this up here for now? Ok? Poor Galen ;)--> might want to say some more things here , seeing he started this thread.
I've got to focus a little more on making a living too, while the weather's good. I know this will be thought of as a wimp out or a dodge, but I'll be accused of that no matter what I do.
I'm game for a few more rounds if anyone insists, but let's think towards wrapping it up. I'd at least like to get back to the Doctrinal forum. This thread is too much resembling one of my threads and they are supposed to be in that forum.
Tom Strange, what you brought up just now are the things I really want to get into. You can hold me to it.
In the 1979 Way Magazine article "Masters of the Word" he never says we should master the Bible, the KJV, wide margin corrected Bibles, Greek texts, or anything like that.
I laid out the article you mentioned. I will repeat the fact that when VP usually said, "Its the WORD, people".... He was pounding his Bible. It was, many times open to Ephesians. In fact, he did it so often that he tore many of the pages of his favorite BIBLE by pounding them. He used to laugh about not wanting to lose the torn Bible pages, because...
It's the Word, Its the Word, Its the WORD, Poe-ple.
This is absolutely insanely ludicrous. HOW can you learn God's Word without the Bible?
If you're gonna be so damn faithful to PFAL, Mike, BE FAITHFUL TO PFAL!!!
"Jesus' proclamation as recorded in John 10:10 is the foundational scripture for this book.
... I am come that they [believers] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God; but somehow we lacked an abundant life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. I was startled into awareness."
That is the FIRST PAGE of the PFAL book, Mike.
Assuming your God-Breathed rhetoric were, in fact true... let's apply your mastery of PFAL's principals to the above.
Hmmm.
The FIRST word of POWER for ABUNDANT Living. Is JESUS.
The FIRST subject mentioned in PFAL is Jesus' proclamation... as recorded... in the BIBLE.
The FIRST thing VPW did in PFAL was to declare the FOUNDATIONAL SCRIPTURE for his written, God-Breathed, work.
And YOU, O great defender of the PFAL faith, say "He wasn't referring to the Bible." Well it was ONLY the FIRST thing he referred to.
You are only faithful to USE VPW and his works as a means to get attention.
Mike...At least you acknowledge that you DO have the charecteristics of the religiously intolerant...Of course, you go on to say that those who embrace the truth, also exhibit these same charecteristics...using Jesus, Paul and Moses as examples.
There is another charecteristic of BOTH religious intolerance and true enlightenment...They BOTH think they are right. The misguided religious bigot is as convinced that he is right, as someone who actually is... Therefore, I submit that you are unable to distinguish between the two. Jesus believed he was right...so did Charles Manson. Paul believed he was right, so did David Koresh. Moses thought he was right, so did Jim Jones...and so do you. So Mike, are you one of the ones who is actually right?...or are you one of the ones who just thinks he is right but is actually wrong?
Even your hero, Veepee said that sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So...your saying it, your believing it, your propounding it, carries absolutely NO credibility as to whether or not it is true....NONE. That being said, I would also submit that what you believe has made you mentally ill...I say this from experience. I know what you believe and I know what it does to people. Reading your posts is an excercize is recognizing the symptoms that accompany the association to this cults teachings.
No. PFAL was NOT God-Breathed. VPW never said it was. I have personal, and actual knowledge of the fact that he never considered his works to be equal to the Bible. He would never agree to your assertion that his statement to master PFAL was intended as a REPLACEMENT for the Bible.
VP HATED the concept of progressive revelation and said it was a lie from HELL.
I edited some of his writings myself. My goal in cutting words from his works was simply to get them to fit on a page.
There were no "hundreds" of editors who worked on his books, there were like TWO. No big heavy duty reasoning, they just had the requisite skills (professionally and spiritually), a knowledge of his works and knew how he might put things in terms of his style of speech; as in diction and vocabulary.
It was important to Vp that his written works sounded like HIM, the way he talked; therefore there was only a handful of people who worked on his stuff. I was one of them. I spent enough time with him in every basic environment, from personal, private, to private business meetings, photo sessions, staff meetings, etc.
I was even there at the private, behind the scenes meeting when he "passed the mantle" of TWI over to LCM. There was a private, invitation only, rehearsal of the ceremony that only a few people in the world even knew happened.
VP said it was like a wedding in that the commitment for Craig to take over theministry as President would happen at a certain moment in time in his heart and that the actual ceremony would be just a public proclamation before God of the commitment that had already been made.
We rehearsed how VP would actually put the mantle on LCM's shoulders and I told him how I would need him to do it to be sure that I and the other photographers could get a good shot of it. We went over it a few times then, VP said, "Ok, lets do it." He did it and prayed over LCM and prophesied over him. After he was done, he said something to LCM to the effect of, "Ok son, its in your hands." There was an air about the room that "mantle" actually passed right then, during the rehearsal.
I know what VPW said to LCM about the ministry. I know how VPW felt about his works. I was there. In some of the "there's" I had a unique position in that it was my job to be right at the very center of what was going on and record it.
I have an understanding of what being "moved by the Holy spirit" is concerning producing a "work."
Frankly, there is a distinct DIFFERENCE between being inspired by God to do a specific work and the Holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The difference lies in GOD'S INTENT for the work.
"In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS God; the SAME was in the beginning with God."... places God's "Word" as it was written in the stars, and recorded on tablets and passed down in translation in what we know as The Holy Bible in a SINGULAR position.
Its position is above ALL else, ABOVE all other works inspired by God. Its total perfection is unmatched and its perfection is not limited to ANY human language. OF COURSE the books, translations, et. all or NOT literally God's Word, BUT they do REPRESENT God's Words and are the only and PRIMARY link between us and God, who literally IS His Word.
We can never attain the totality of God's Word, seeing as the heaven is high above the Earth, so are his ways above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts. God's word can't FIT in ANY book, much less PFAL.
It is HERESY to suggest that any works can replace the Bible and idolatry to lift any man up equal with God in terms of comparing his works to GOD'S. Good Grief! God even tells us that we should not even give any thought to what we say when we're called on the carpet because in that same hour He, via Holy Spirit will give us the words to say.
God does that on a regular basis; you can't say those words, even though people speak as moved by HS are equal to or a replacement fot the Bible. Geez...
The problem here, Mike, is that VP simply said God was inspiring him to write... "This book, Power for Abundant Living, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived and which he came to make available to believers as it is revealed in the Word of God."
He said ONE way, not THE way. "It is a book containing BIBLICAL keys...designed to set before the reader the BASIC keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold...."
There is NOTHING about how understanding it will usher in the return of Christ. That's just plain CRAZY.
The number of points per page you bring up make it difficult for me to know where to start, or how to get it all done.
However, I will say this for now. The extreme closeness to VPW you describe of your lifestyle for those years is the very factor that disqualifies you to credibly discern the authority which God gave to him.
That same closeness ALSO gave you the valuable insights to his flesh that helped you to trounce several evil legends that have sprung up to discredit him. I've seen several such vicious rumors grow from scratch over the years. One recent one concerned his supposed racism that's been rumbling quietly for a while. You were able to effectively silence that rather quickly with your close association with him in the physical realm.
But spiritually, you are unable to see that he was a chosen spokesman for God BECAUSE you were so close to him. I learned several years ago to discount all firsthand witnesses of his life when it comes to his speaking for God and teaching His Word like it has not been known since the first century. Sorry.
I'm thankful for your flesh testimony. I totally reject your spiritual testimony.
For the spiritual testimony, you need to earn that kind of respect from me and it's too late. It took God 27 years to teach me to trust Dr's written words, I decided to believe what God wrought in that respect, and I have locked onto what He taught me for the rest of my life.
Now if you will just calm down, and slow down, I will deal one by one with the details you have thrown out. If you're not done yet, I'll wait. If you want to jump down my throat after I start with these details, then I'll know that you're not done, and I'll wait again.
If your total intention is to filibuster me with details and protests and insults, then I'll collect the details and find some other way to teach the untangling of them to those who are interested in a place where you can't interrupt. If you want to learn then I can teach you a lot; not all but a lot. If you are not meek and think you already know it, I've seen before plenty who fell into that category, often times they were Corps, and I learned to not allow them to upset me.
Your flesh impresses me as very smart and very energetic. Spiritually, you're nobody... yet.
I see you get it, at least what we talked about last. I can pretty well agree with your whole post up to that point where you say "That being said..."
I do not expect anyone to believe my message based on my words. That's why I don't even try to poove anything here regarding my message on Dr's writings in PFAL God-breathed. I can prove that he said certain things that were forgotten or that slipped by us. I can show enough for those who really want to know to be motivated to come back to PFAL.
But if you want to see if PFAL is God-breathed you are going to have to admit that you don't have God's Word now, not enough of it, that is, to give you what Jesus Christ came to give you. To see that PFAL is God-breathed you're going to have to first come back to it and meekly obey Dr's instructions to embrace it with the intention of mastering it, and nothing else. THEN you will see plenty of proofs as God shows you more and more. You have to be IN this Word to see God's Word and will. If that's the most important thing in your life still, then come back to PFAL and do what Dr said to do. I'm assuming that there once was a time when God's Word and will were the number one priority in your life. NOT having that priority is idolatry, and then it's impossible for God to bless you.
Maybe Wierwille didn't literally believe that his PFAL replaced the bible versions, much less the "Word of God", but I think it is obvious that he believed that his interpretation of the bible was the only correct one, regardless of what the overwhelming majority of scholars might say; that his definitions were more accurate than those who studied the biblical languages for decades, even though his mastery of them was superficial at best; that his pronouncements of "new light" with little or sometimes no textual documentation were correct (remember the times he insisted he was right in the face of unanimous textual evidense to the contrary - "Someday we'll find a text that backs me up"); that he was, literally, the final arbiter of just what "THE Word of God" was.
This is different than what Mike is claiming, but Wierwille did believe that he was the filter through which God's will must pass.
I wish, though, that the use of the word "replace" in your post had the qualification that I have often propped it up with when I used it. If I weren't so tired I'd find where most recently explained how just the word "replace" is too much of an abreviation.
You're quibbling over replace? Geez, gimme a break! I just got back from my "boys night out" at the local watering hole. I'm sure everyone is mentally replacing "replace" with your long-winded definition.
quote:
then come back to PFAL and do what Dr said to do. I'm assuming that there once was a time when God's Word and will were the number one priority in your life. NOT having that priority is idolatry, and then it's impossible for God to bless you.
PFAL = God's Word, so not coming back to PFAL = idolatry? --> --> --> --> -->
No, I'm not quibbling WITH YOU about your use of it that word. I was anticipating others quibbling WITH ME about it... again.
I'm just trying to remind them (and me) that using that word is an abreviation for a more extended idea where PRIOR heavy use of the KJV is assumed. It replaces it ONLY for OLGs.
Just earlier today I stated that if I had a non-grad "convert" I'd feel it a great need to bring them through the KJV for a substantial amount of time before they could get around to mastering PFAL.
Ditto for the idolatry thing. Please remember I'm talking to OLGs about OLGs.
I'm assuming that there once was a time when God's Word and will were the number one priority in your life. NOT having that priority is idolatry, and then it's impossible for God to bless you.
You made 3 points here, and I have 3 responses:
#1 priority --------------------- BINGO!
#2 no priority is idolatry ------- Maybe.
#3 impossible for God to bless --- His ways are greater than ours.
You just said it yourself --- God's Word should be the number 1 priority in our lives. God's Word --- not pfal;
Not having it as a priority doesn't necessarily lead to idolatry, but it could;
God can bless anyone He chooses, regardless of their *practices* -- like Saul (aka Paul) for instance.
Well -- except for your first sentence, I agree 100%. I happen to like KJV, but I have several other versions here that I look at also, and trust -- just as much.
Also have a small library by various authors, that cover a wide range of subjects, and while I consider none of them the *authoritative* definition of any given subject -- they are worthy of perusal, and consideration.
Doc falls in that category. What he says (said) is no more than a *commentary* on what he thought the bible said or meant -- and as I've said before -- he got his knowledge from other folks, and passed it off as his work.
Now --- reading Doc's works, or any of the others --- I see them ALL as nothing more than one man's *interpretation* of what the bible means, on any given subject. I don't accept any of them as the *end all* for doctrine -- but they all do give me something to think about, and chew over.
Pfal may lead to God, but if it does -- it isn't the only set of books out there that does so.
I think we're communicating better. Still, I think you came down hard on me, and gave a pass to many others who were much harsher, and who have no mitigating follow-up like I do.
***
I contend that PFAL is the only set of books that totally unfold the KJV. Others may help here and there, but only PFAL will lead us to the fullness.
I'm thankful you posted what you posted. I'd like to handle it like we discussed it previously.
You wrote: "Maybe Wierwille didn't literally believe that his PFAL replaced the bible versions, much less the "Word of God", but I think it is obvious that he believed that his interpretation of the bible was the only correct one, regardless of what the overwhelming majority of scholars might say; that his definitions were more accurate than those who studied the biblical languages for decades, even though his mastery of them was superficial at best; that his pronouncements of "new light" with little or sometimes no textual documentation were correct (remember the times he insisted he was right in the face of unanimous textual evidense to the contrary - "Someday we'll find a text that backs me up"); that he was, literally, the final arbiter of just what "THE Word of God" was. __ This is different than what Mike is claiming, but Wierwille did believe that he was the filter through which God's will must pass."
The last sentence is a little similar to what I posted earlier to dmiller.
If you were to examine the 90 (mostly hidden but clear to the meek and patient) "Thus saith the Lord" statements I have found you may reverse your position of him not believing that he was the appointed spokesman. The very fact that he urged mastery of PFAL (and not mere intensified utilization of PFAL for standard Bible mastery) towards the end of his life AND for his dying last words also testifies to his knowing his calling to re-format the Word for us grads.
If it hasn't been pruned I posted a document here called "Light Began to Dawn" where it's easy to see that in 1965 Dr was much more open about his calling in earlier years. If it's not still on the board, maybe I'll post it again, or excerpts from it. Whoever wants to see it can remind me.
After the 1971 Elena Whiteside's book and his open statements there he had to cool it. I think the reason for this is because tons of people came in who weren't ready for his more overt proclamations. Notice that TNDC p. 34 and p. 116 are in VERY elementary chapters. Dr (and God) knew few would ever find these proclamations after their babe years, and while still babes their significance would elude them. It still eludes those who now WANT to not see it.
***
I used to think Dr was either "tapped in" or that he was con artist (or worse). I didn't think there were any shades of gray in between. The proVPW splinters think of him in gray terms, which doesn't fit the evidence. He was a most extreme individual and either tapped in or gonzo.
This is why I thought it practical to try and thoroughly think through the 'tapped in" angle. Our culture saturated with Elmer Gantry stories makes thingking through the other side easy. If there were many more shades of gray to also think through, it would be too hard a task. Having only two possibilities made it possible to pretty well totally examine both.
In the many years prior to 1998 (even as early as 1980) and not knowing about his last teaching being so thoroughly lost, I periodically looked at the con artist and/or mentally ill angle, and was leaning more and more in that direction as the years passed. My most likely model was that he once was a good man, and he gradually lost it. His breakdown or transition period in my evolving model was steadily declining from 1975 to '72 to '68 to '60 to '56, with various reasons for each date.
But when I found out in 1998 that his dying last words were so utterly ignored, it got my attention. It looked like a conspiracy was afoot, a spiritually coordinated conspiracy to have his last words buried. The conspiracy looked to be "tapped in," but to the dark side of the "force." I don't mean that I thought people consciously conspired. I mean the adversary conspired, and utilized people's services without their full (or even partial) knowledge.
In some of my live interviews otherwise intelligent people would look me right in the eye (and figuratively for phone and e-mail interviews) and tell me that they didn't think that a dying man's last words had any special significance. They refused to believe me that in every culture, if a man was lucid and trustworthy, then his dying last words were always treated as very special. I'd show them, or even play for them, Dr's words at Living Victoriously where he clearly stated that his last words would contain his most important message... and all I'd get is blank stares. Taking with them was like a Twilight Zone episode that I somehow got stuck in.
Most of these people regarded (or at least said so) that Dr was trustworthy. I'd tell them that some courts will accept deathbed confessions as legal testimony even if the man was NOT otherwise trustworthy. Even this wouldn't make a dent. I could see that either they were a part of a human conspiracy against Dr (unlikely though), or the more likely spiritual conspiracy was very efficiently hiding his last words and clouding their otherwise relatively clear minds.
These kinds of things motivated me to not only consider and thoroughly think through the "tapped in" possibility, but to also act on that possibility and attempt to obey his final instructions. That's when I started seeing tons of things in the books that I had forgotten or that had slipped by me altogether. Subsequent interviews showed me I was not at all alone in this missing of lots of material in his books.
All this has been an adventure, a true life detective story, that's unfortunately too outlandish to capitalize on and write it up in novel or screenplay form. It wouldn't have the element of believability that good fiction needs to grip the secular reader, and churchianity would be even farther from buying it. Instead, I jumped into it.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
42
42
104
94
Popular Days
Feb 22
44
Feb 28
40
Mar 11
40
Mar 1
34
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 42 posts
HCW 42 posts
Mike 104 posts
Ham 94 posts
Popular Days
Feb 22 2005
44 posts
Feb 28 2005
40 posts
Mar 11 2005
40 posts
Mar 1 2005
34 posts
Popular Posts
Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
Mike
You know? I'm really sick of talking about me!
I also am sick of talking about what we were just talking about.
Both of these patterns have been dominating lately.
What do you all say we call a truce and gather our thoughts to think of more important things than me or how we all talk to each other?
I've got my backlog of items from this thread that I consider important to my message. I'd like to just work on them for a while and then resurface over in the Doctrinal forum.
Why don't we wrap this up here for now? Ok? Poor Galen
;)--> might want to say some more things here , seeing he started this thread.
I've got to focus a little more on making a living too, while the weather's good. I know this will be thought of as a wimp out or a dodge, but I'll be accused of that no matter what I do.
I'm game for a few more rounds if anyone insists, but let's think towards wrapping it up. I'd at least like to get back to the Doctrinal forum. This thread is too much resembling one of my threads and they are supposed to be in that forum.
Tom Strange, what you brought up just now are the things I really want to get into. You can hold me to it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
And another thing...
I laid out the article you mentioned. I will repeat the fact that when VP usually said, "Its the WORD, people".... He was pounding his Bible. It was, many times open to Ephesians. In fact, he did it so often that he tore many of the pages of his favorite BIBLE by pounding them. He used to laugh about not wanting to lose the torn Bible pages, because...
It's the Word, Its the Word, Its the WORD, Poe-ple.
This is absolutely insanely ludicrous. HOW can you learn God's Word without the Bible?
If you're gonna be so damn faithful to PFAL, Mike, BE FAITHFUL TO PFAL!!!
"Jesus' proclamation as recorded in John 10:10 is the foundational scripture for this book.
... I am come that they [believers] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
This verse literally changed my life. My wife and I began in the Christian ministry, plodding ahead with the things of God; but somehow we lacked an abundant life. Then one time I was especially alerted when I read from the Word of God that Jesus said He had come to give us life more abundant. I was startled into awareness."
That is the FIRST PAGE of the PFAL book, Mike.
Assuming your God-Breathed rhetoric were, in fact true... let's apply your mastery of PFAL's principals to the above.
Hmmm.
The FIRST word of POWER for ABUNDANT Living. Is JESUS.
The FIRST subject mentioned in PFAL is Jesus' proclamation... as recorded... in the BIBLE.
The FIRST thing VPW did in PFAL was to declare the FOUNDATIONAL SCRIPTURE for his written, God-Breathed, work.
And YOU, O great defender of the PFAL faith, say "He wasn't referring to the Bible." Well it was ONLY the FIRST thing he referred to.
You are only faithful to USE VPW and his works as a means to get attention.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
I have not recently been notified that, during this month, there are any PFAL classes running, simultaneously in any area where I am likely to be in.
Hoorah!!!
Isn't that great?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
Mike...At least you acknowledge that you DO have the charecteristics of the religiously intolerant...Of course, you go on to say that those who embrace the truth, also exhibit these same charecteristics...using Jesus, Paul and Moses as examples.
There is another charecteristic of BOTH religious intolerance and true enlightenment...They BOTH think they are right. The misguided religious bigot is as convinced that he is right, as someone who actually is... Therefore, I submit that you are unable to distinguish between the two. Jesus believed he was right...so did Charles Manson. Paul believed he was right, so did David Koresh. Moses thought he was right, so did Jim Jones...and so do you. So Mike, are you one of the ones who is actually right?...or are you one of the ones who just thinks he is right but is actually wrong?
Even your hero, Veepee said that sincerity is no guarantee for truth. So...your saying it, your believing it, your propounding it, carries absolutely NO credibility as to whether or not it is true....NONE. That being said, I would also submit that what you believe has made you mentally ill...I say this from experience. I know what you believe and I know what it does to people. Reading your posts is an excercize is recognizing the symptoms that accompany the association to this cults teachings.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
This is a simple subject.
No. PFAL was NOT God-Breathed. VPW never said it was. I have personal, and actual knowledge of the fact that he never considered his works to be equal to the Bible. He would never agree to your assertion that his statement to master PFAL was intended as a REPLACEMENT for the Bible.
VP HATED the concept of progressive revelation and said it was a lie from HELL.
I edited some of his writings myself. My goal in cutting words from his works was simply to get them to fit on a page.
There were no "hundreds" of editors who worked on his books, there were like TWO. No big heavy duty reasoning, they just had the requisite skills (professionally and spiritually), a knowledge of his works and knew how he might put things in terms of his style of speech; as in diction and vocabulary.
It was important to Vp that his written works sounded like HIM, the way he talked; therefore there was only a handful of people who worked on his stuff. I was one of them. I spent enough time with him in every basic environment, from personal, private, to private business meetings, photo sessions, staff meetings, etc.
I was even there at the private, behind the scenes meeting when he "passed the mantle" of TWI over to LCM. There was a private, invitation only, rehearsal of the ceremony that only a few people in the world even knew happened.
VP said it was like a wedding in that the commitment for Craig to take over theministry as President would happen at a certain moment in time in his heart and that the actual ceremony would be just a public proclamation before God of the commitment that had already been made.
We rehearsed how VP would actually put the mantle on LCM's shoulders and I told him how I would need him to do it to be sure that I and the other photographers could get a good shot of it. We went over it a few times then, VP said, "Ok, lets do it." He did it and prayed over LCM and prophesied over him. After he was done, he said something to LCM to the effect of, "Ok son, its in your hands." There was an air about the room that "mantle" actually passed right then, during the rehearsal.
I know what VPW said to LCM about the ministry. I know how VPW felt about his works. I was there. In some of the "there's" I had a unique position in that it was my job to be right at the very center of what was going on and record it.
I have an understanding of what being "moved by the Holy spirit" is concerning producing a "work."
Frankly, there is a distinct DIFFERENCE between being inspired by God to do a specific work and the Holy men of God who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. The difference lies in GOD'S INTENT for the work.
"In the beginning was the WORD, the WORD was with God and the WORD WAS God; the SAME was in the beginning with God."... places God's "Word" as it was written in the stars, and recorded on tablets and passed down in translation in what we know as The Holy Bible in a SINGULAR position.
Its position is above ALL else, ABOVE all other works inspired by God. Its total perfection is unmatched and its perfection is not limited to ANY human language. OF COURSE the books, translations, et. all or NOT literally God's Word, BUT they do REPRESENT God's Words and are the only and PRIMARY link between us and God, who literally IS His Word.
We can never attain the totality of God's Word, seeing as the heaven is high above the Earth, so are his ways above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts. God's word can't FIT in ANY book, much less PFAL.
It is HERESY to suggest that any works can replace the Bible and idolatry to lift any man up equal with God in terms of comparing his works to GOD'S. Good Grief! God even tells us that we should not even give any thought to what we say when we're called on the carpet because in that same hour He, via Holy Spirit will give us the words to say.
God does that on a regular basis; you can't say those words, even though people speak as moved by HS are equal to or a replacement fot the Bible. Geez...
The problem here, Mike, is that VP simply said God was inspiring him to write... "This book, Power for Abundant Living, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived and which he came to make available to believers as it is revealed in the Word of God."
He said ONE way, not THE way. "It is a book containing BIBLICAL keys...designed to set before the reader the BASIC keys in the Word of God so that Genesis to Revelation will unfold...."
There is NOTHING about how understanding it will usher in the return of Christ. That's just plain CRAZY.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
HCW,
The number of points per page you bring up make it difficult for me to know where to start, or how to get it all done.
However, I will say this for now. The extreme closeness to VPW you describe of your lifestyle for those years is the very factor that disqualifies you to credibly discern the authority which God gave to him.
That same closeness ALSO gave you the valuable insights to his flesh that helped you to trounce several evil legends that have sprung up to discredit him. I've seen several such vicious rumors grow from scratch over the years. One recent one concerned his supposed racism that's been rumbling quietly for a while. You were able to effectively silence that rather quickly with your close association with him in the physical realm.
But spiritually, you are unable to see that he was a chosen spokesman for God BECAUSE you were so close to him. I learned several years ago to discount all firsthand witnesses of his life when it comes to his speaking for God and teaching His Word like it has not been known since the first century. Sorry.
I'm thankful for your flesh testimony. I totally reject your spiritual testimony.
For the spiritual testimony, you need to earn that kind of respect from me and it's too late. It took God 27 years to teach me to trust Dr's written words, I decided to believe what God wrought in that respect, and I have locked onto what He taught me for the rest of my life.
Now if you will just calm down, and slow down, I will deal one by one with the details you have thrown out. If you're not done yet, I'll wait. If you want to jump down my throat after I start with these details, then I'll know that you're not done, and I'll wait again.
If your total intention is to filibuster me with details and protests and insults, then I'll collect the details and find some other way to teach the untangling of them to those who are interested in a place where you can't interrupt. If you want to learn then I can teach you a lot; not all but a lot. If you are not meek and think you already know it, I've seen before plenty who fell into that category, often times they were Corps, and I learned to not allow them to upset me.
Your flesh impresses me as very smart and very energetic. Spiritually, you're nobody... yet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
UncleHairy,
I see you get it, at least what we talked about last. I can pretty well agree with your whole post up to that point where you say "That being said..."
I do not expect anyone to believe my message based on my words. That's why I don't even try to poove anything here regarding my message on Dr's writings in PFAL God-breathed. I can prove that he said certain things that were forgotten or that slipped by us. I can show enough for those who really want to know to be motivated to come back to PFAL.
But if you want to see if PFAL is God-breathed you are going to have to admit that you don't have God's Word now, not enough of it, that is, to give you what Jesus Christ came to give you. To see that PFAL is God-breathed you're going to have to first come back to it and meekly obey Dr's instructions to embrace it with the intention of mastering it, and nothing else. THEN you will see plenty of proofs as God shows you more and more. You have to be IN this Word to see God's Word and will. If that's the most important thing in your life still, then come back to PFAL and do what Dr said to do. I'm assuming that there once was a time when God's Word and will were the number one priority in your life. NOT having that priority is idolatry, and then it's impossible for God to bless you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Maybe Wierwille didn't literally believe that his PFAL replaced the bible versions, much less the "Word of God", but I think it is obvious that he believed that his interpretation of the bible was the only correct one, regardless of what the overwhelming majority of scholars might say; that his definitions were more accurate than those who studied the biblical languages for decades, even though his mastery of them was superficial at best; that his pronouncements of "new light" with little or sometimes no textual documentation were correct (remember the times he insisted he was right in the face of unanimous textual evidense to the contrary - "Someday we'll find a text that backs me up"); that he was, literally, the final arbiter of just what "THE Word of God" was.
This is different than what Mike is claiming, but Wierwille did believe that he was the filter through which God's will must pass.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Mike --- that was uncalled for.
:(-->
David
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Thank you Oaky.
I wish, though, that the use of the word "replace" in your post had the qualification that I have often propped it up with when I used it. If I weren't so tired I'd find where most recently explained how just the word "replace" is too much of an abreviation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dmiller,
I think it was called for. He is not God's spokesman. Neither am I.
Spiritually, I too am nobody... yet.
I'm using the word "spiritually" in a stronger sense than your are accustomed to.
We're supposed to be jesus Christ men and women. We're not... yet.
The gift of holy spirit does not affect the flesh mind. That means it's still a natural man mind up there... until Christ is FORMED there in the mind.
A natural man's mind can juggle words about spiritual matters, but they are not understood there.
I will bet my life that no one here is a spiritual man... yet.
The big question is which way are we moving: closer to being spiritual or farther away.
dmiller, where was your sad face when people called me insane?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Remember, it's OAkie, not Okie
:D-->
You're quibbling over replace? Geez, gimme a break! I just got back from my "boys night out" at the local watering hole.
I'm sure everyone is mentally replacing "replace" with your long-winded definition.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Oakspear,
Sorry about the spelling.
:(-->
No, I'm not quibbling WITH YOU about your use of it that word. I was anticipating others quibbling WITH ME about it... again.
I'm just trying to remind them (and me) that using that word is an abreviation for a more extended idea where PRIOR heavy use of the KJV is assumed. It replaces it ONLY for OLGs.
Just earlier today I stated that if I had a non-grad "convert" I'd feel it a great need to bring them through the KJV for a substantial amount of time before they could get around to mastering PFAL.
Ditto for the idolatry thing. Please remember I'm talking to OLGs about OLGs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
You made 3 points here, and I have 3 responses:
#1 priority --------------------- BINGO!
#2 no priority is idolatry ------- Maybe.
#3 impossible for God to bless --- His ways are greater than ours.
You just said it yourself --- God's Word should be the number 1 priority in our lives. God's Word --- not pfal;
Not having it as a priority doesn't necessarily lead to idolatry, but it could;
God can bless anyone He chooses, regardless of their *practices* -- like Saul (aka Paul) for instance.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dmiller,
I see no way to GET TO God's Word without PFAL.
The KJV alone can't cut it.
If God isn't first there's a problem.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Well -- at least you qualified your statement (kinda).
:)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Well -- except for your first sentence, I agree 100%. I happen to like KJV, but I have several other versions here that I look at also, and trust -- just as much.
Also have a small library by various authors, that cover a wide range of subjects, and while I consider none of them the *authoritative* definition of any given subject -- they are worthy of perusal, and consideration.
Doc falls in that category. What he says (said) is no more than a *commentary* on what he thought the bible said or meant -- and as I've said before -- he got his knowledge from other folks, and passed it off as his work.
Now --- reading Doc's works, or any of the others --- I see them ALL as nothing more than one man's *interpretation* of what the bible means, on any given subject. I don't accept any of them as the *end all* for doctrine -- but they all do give me something to think about, and chew over.
Pfal may lead to God, but if it does -- it isn't the only set of books out there that does so.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
This thread, page 9, 2/28/05, 1:47am Eastern.
Mike:
This thread, page 10, 2/28/05, 9:04pm, eastern.
Mike:
In the first post, dmiller has fear of Mike-just a smaller amount.
In the second post, dmiller does not have a smaller amount of fear of Mike.
To quote vpw: "Now, SOMEONE's got to be a liar!"
Is it Mike, when he says others have fear of him and dmiller has less?
(2/28/05, 1:47am)
Or Is it Mike, when he says that's a "misreading" of what he said?
(2/28/05, 9:04pm)
They can't BOTH be right!
Let the reader judge.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
dmiller,
I think we're communicating better. Still, I think you came down hard on me, and gave a pass to many others who were much harsher, and who have no mitigating follow-up like I do.
***
I contend that PFAL is the only set of books that totally unfold the KJV. Others may help here and there, but only PFAL will lead us to the fullness.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
WordWolf,
If the context doesn't qualify or mitigate that, then I mis-spoke.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Back to You Oakspear,
I'm thankful you posted what you posted. I'd like to handle it like we discussed it previously.
You wrote: "Maybe Wierwille didn't literally believe that his PFAL replaced the bible versions, much less the "Word of God", but I think it is obvious that he believed that his interpretation of the bible was the only correct one, regardless of what the overwhelming majority of scholars might say; that his definitions were more accurate than those who studied the biblical languages for decades, even though his mastery of them was superficial at best; that his pronouncements of "new light" with little or sometimes no textual documentation were correct (remember the times he insisted he was right in the face of unanimous textual evidense to the contrary - "Someday we'll find a text that backs me up"); that he was, literally, the final arbiter of just what "THE Word of God" was. __ This is different than what Mike is claiming, but Wierwille did believe that he was the filter through which God's will must pass."
The last sentence is a little similar to what I posted earlier to dmiller.
If you were to examine the 90 (mostly hidden but clear to the meek and patient) "Thus saith the Lord" statements I have found you may reverse your position of him not believing that he was the appointed spokesman. The very fact that he urged mastery of PFAL (and not mere intensified utilization of PFAL for standard Bible mastery) towards the end of his life AND for his dying last words also testifies to his knowing his calling to re-format the Word for us grads.
If it hasn't been pruned I posted a document here called "Light Began to Dawn" where it's easy to see that in 1965 Dr was much more open about his calling in earlier years. If it's not still on the board, maybe I'll post it again, or excerpts from it. Whoever wants to see it can remind me.
After the 1971 Elena Whiteside's book and his open statements there he had to cool it. I think the reason for this is because tons of people came in who weren't ready for his more overt proclamations. Notice that TNDC p. 34 and p. 116 are in VERY elementary chapters. Dr (and God) knew few would ever find these proclamations after their babe years, and while still babes their significance would elude them. It still eludes those who now WANT to not see it.
***
I used to think Dr was either "tapped in" or that he was con artist (or worse). I didn't think there were any shades of gray in between. The proVPW splinters think of him in gray terms, which doesn't fit the evidence. He was a most extreme individual and either tapped in or gonzo.
This is why I thought it practical to try and thoroughly think through the 'tapped in" angle. Our culture saturated with Elmer Gantry stories makes thingking through the other side easy. If there were many more shades of gray to also think through, it would be too hard a task. Having only two possibilities made it possible to pretty well totally examine both.
In the many years prior to 1998 (even as early as 1980) and not knowing about his last teaching being so thoroughly lost, I periodically looked at the con artist and/or mentally ill angle, and was leaning more and more in that direction as the years passed. My most likely model was that he once was a good man, and he gradually lost it. His breakdown or transition period in my evolving model was steadily declining from 1975 to '72 to '68 to '60 to '56, with various reasons for each date.
But when I found out in 1998 that his dying last words were so utterly ignored, it got my attention. It looked like a conspiracy was afoot, a spiritually coordinated conspiracy to have his last words buried. The conspiracy looked to be "tapped in," but to the dark side of the "force." I don't mean that I thought people consciously conspired. I mean the adversary conspired, and utilized people's services without their full (or even partial) knowledge.
In some of my live interviews otherwise intelligent people would look me right in the eye (and figuratively for phone and e-mail interviews) and tell me that they didn't think that a dying man's last words had any special significance. They refused to believe me that in every culture, if a man was lucid and trustworthy, then his dying last words were always treated as very special. I'd show them, or even play for them, Dr's words at Living Victoriously where he clearly stated that his last words would contain his most important message... and all I'd get is blank stares. Taking with them was like a Twilight Zone episode that I somehow got stuck in.
Most of these people regarded (or at least said so) that Dr was trustworthy. I'd tell them that some courts will accept deathbed confessions as legal testimony even if the man was NOT otherwise trustworthy. Even this wouldn't make a dent. I could see that either they were a part of a human conspiracy against Dr (unlikely though), or the more likely spiritual conspiracy was very efficiently hiding his last words and clouding their otherwise relatively clear minds.
These kinds of things motivated me to not only consider and thoroughly think through the "tapped in" possibility, but to also act on that possibility and attempt to obey his final instructions. That's when I started seeing tons of things in the books that I had forgotten or that had slipped by me altogether. Subsequent interviews showed me I was not at all alone in this missing of lots of material in his books.
All this has been an adventure, a true life detective story, that's unfortunately too outlandish to capitalize on and write it up in novel or screenplay form. It wouldn't have the element of believability that good fiction needs to grip the secular reader, and churchianity would be even farther from buying it. Instead, I jumped into it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
May I again issue my request that we cool it here and take this to the Doctrinal forum?
...Oh, yeah, and that we focus on the subject more and not on me, and not on picky details as if this were a courtroom going over a contract?
We should give Galen his thread back.
I'll even admit that it's all my fault this grew into a Doctrinal forum thread.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Mike, 2/28/05, 12:14am.
Wrong, Mike, I answered it, twice, and the second time, I went out of my way to
make the answer crystal clear.
WordWolf, 2/28/05, 5:37am.
BTW, the original post lays out WHY this should be obvious to any reader of
pfal, but I didn't feel the need to repeat it entirely here. It's cited
by date and time, so it's easy to find.
I didn't simply give a "yes/no" answer because the answer was far too deep
for a simple "yes/no" answer to be CORRECT.
Most people are aware that requiring "yes/no" answers to all questions is
wrong, and cite the famous question
"have you stopped beating your wife?" as an example of a question where
the answer needs to be more detailed than "yes/no".
But, I definitely answered your question in detail,
without evasion,
and in plain English.
Further,
your response was illustrative on its own.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
May I again issue my request that we cool it here and take this to the Doctrinal forum?
...Oh, yeah, and that we focus on the subject more and not on me, and not on picky details as if this were a courtroom going over a contract?
We should give Galen his thread back.
I'll even admit that it's all my fault this grew into a Doctrinal forum thread
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.