“I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but.....
There's much more out there that is way better than PFAL.
I encourage you to look around a tad bit....
And I'm not talking splinters or clones. It's a real big Christian world out there.”
True,
As we have discussed many times before. Your experiences and mine have been entirely different. The Way ministry that you were a part of rarely resembled that which I was a part of. We have discussed this.
It is a wonderful world out there. We rather like BG Leonard’s class, we like PFAL, we like doing Word-Studies, we like fellowshipping with others and ministering to them.
We have dealt with a few churches, though so often we have found that they are businesses with bottom-lines that they must meet each month and they are often driven by that dollar amount.
Overall we do prefer home-based Bible study groups and pastoring.
It saddens me that so many were abused by TWI, as it saddens me that so many have been abused by the Baptists from which I find my roots. My wife’s roots are Catholic and we all know how many have been / and still are abused from within that fold.
There is a great and wonderful world of Christians out there, but we must look for them and bless them, somehow even while we are on guard for tyrants and abusive systems.
I cannot see how it would be possible after our long history of communications that even today you wish to release me from what you experienced within TWI. Such was not my experience, and even describing our fellowships, the fellowships that I have coordinated have been far more fiercely guarded from ‘wolves’, whether ‘loyal’ to TWI, or the Baptist conference, or whatever.
Please don’t place your history, and fears, and past abuses onto me, as if I went through them.
Thank you.
Bless you.
WW-
“Here, here!”
Okay fine, There there.
Dmiller-
“Really!? Wow -- that's alright. I figured there had to be payment, and a minimal amount of students before a class could run. Good for you.”
Hmm, we have not done that for many years.
Rascal-
“Arrogance learned in twi can be what that keeps us from enjoying meaningfull fellowship with our spiritual bretheren post twi.”
I agree, though most often when I say the exact same thing, I get blasted for not liking those who carried that arrogance the most – The Corpse.
“ *Fruit* would indicate that the churches that I attend have much more on the ball spiritually than TWI ever did, leading me to believe that the *word* taught in twi, despite their claims, may not have been authentic”
I think that both the Mennonites and the Mormons are two great examples of this. We have friends in both communities, and we easily walk among either group. Very loving and ‘fruitful’ believers.
Still does not prove to be a guarantee that nobody will be abused or mistreated.
Ther fruit manifested DOES tell a story. We drifted from the good stuff, got sloppy and ate bad TVT stuff, and manifested bad fruit.
As I've mentioned twice before here, you should EXPECT greater evil lurking nearby and close to the greater good.
I think we ought to give ANOTHER chance, not to the bad TVT we ate, but to the good books we were given. They once worked well for us until we drifted from them.
Dear Mike, Galen, and others.I will give the chapters from Alpha/Questionsof Life: Christianity-Boring, Untrue and Irrelvant? Why did Jesus Die, How can I be sure of my Faith,
Why and how should I read the bible,, how do I pray, how does God guide us, Who and what is the Holy Spirit, how can I be filled with the spirit, how can I resist evil, why and how do I tell others, does God heal today, what is the church? From Beginings?Along The Way are the following chapters: So, iis this all there is,
Who is Jesus and why should I care, Can I trust God, How does God speak to me,how do I speak to God, why should I join any group that will have me as a member? Neil Anderson's Beta is based on the following 2 books and chapters of Victory over the darkness, and the Bondage breaker:You can't live beyond what you believe,
the renewed mind,living by the spirit, Stand Firm, accussed by the father of lies, danger of deception, and finally Steps to freedom in Christ. Try Alphausa.com, Abingdon/Cokesbury,and
Sorry Mike, the first bite of maggot infested fruit was enough for this gal.
Galen, agreed, I think that is the whole key behind being instructed to look at the fruit in order to find out what is *of the flesh* and what is *of the spirit*. It makes it very easy to determine where to place our trust.
The PFAL revelations have been circulating since 1953 when Dr put the WHOLE thing together. Dr taught many who talked to many more for decades. Dr was on the radio on many stations for years. Many of the elements were out there before that 1953 date, but not so together.
Mike.......PFAL has many elements and revelations that vpw put together. Problem is.....PFAL has lots of hidden meanings.....in fact, its an acronym in reverse.
As we have discussed many times before. Your experiences and mine have been entirely different. The Way ministry that you were a part of rarely resembled that which I was a part of. We have discussed this.
SNIP...
Please don’t place your history, and fears, and past abuses onto me, as if I went through them.
Thank you.
Bless you.
SNIP...
Rascal-
“Arrogance learned in twi can be what that keeps us from enjoying meaningfull fellowship with our spiritual bretheren post twi.”
I agree, though most often when I say the exact same thing, I get blasted for not liking those who carried that arrogance the most – The Corpse.
:-)
""Please don’t place your history, and fears, and past abuses onto me, as if I went through them.""
Gee, Galen, the same might be said to you with your broken-turntable rant against all the kork...
sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander -- do you catch the drift, Galen???......
I can find no harm in turning people on to this class. Although there are subjects that I myself no longer believe are absolute truth, the basics of it will help the new student get a handle on the how of the Bible.
Nothing wrong in that, and everything should be open for discussion.
What I find odd with some of my extwi family, is that they believed it all at one time, and now none of it. I never believed it all when I was associated with them, and that maybe my oddity. Oh well........
I'm sure there's other works out there that offer as much and even more knowledge, but I don't see the harm in offering this class to help others into reading Gods Word.
If I had never taken PFAL I probably would have never thought the Bible was and is the Word of God. That statement in it's self is priceless to me.
So whether you hate em or love em, VPW got some of us to read and consider the Bible as the standard for truth.
Even if one assumes that Wierwille was "right on" with his PFAL class, is that the best that can be done almost forty years after it was filmed? Can't you PFAL fans take what was learned and expand on it? Build on it? Teach the same basic stuff with your own lame jokes? :D-->
There aren't any ministries out there that even come close to PFAL!
Well Thank God for that,
Knowledge for knowledge sake puffeth up, if i remember rightly
Mike In my business I deal with churches of all types. Although they vary somewhat in their methods of practice, just about any one of the them is lightyears ahead of TWI in coordinating what they believe with making actual contributions to practical life.
We mistrust church because a ministry that manifested great evil and perpetrate dgreat harm on believers TOLD us to.....hmmmmm
Rascal I'd have to disagreee with that
I mistrust church because they have not proven themselves worthy of mine. Trust is earned. They are a business with a large overhead and they will teach and do what brings people in to pay that bill.
I have yet to find one that does not teach things like the trinity,water baptism,church doctrine,the dead are alive and a long list of other non biblical error. Why would I want to trust things I know to be wrong for a social club.You know if I went to school and they taught me 2+2=7 I most likely would not trust them to teach me math anymore why would I go to a church that doesn't teach truth. I can get ice cream at Dairy Queen.
SOME churches dove, there are many spiritual christians out here.
As with any body you will find the spiritually *immature*> But, there IS gold to be found.....as I said even with the supposed doctrinal errors, I have yet to attend a church that manifested the evil twi did.
My conclusion? Either the *word* taught is not authentic, or if per chance it was, that it simply isn`t as important as we were led to believe if our goal is to be *of the spirit*
I see far more *fruit* in the churches that I have attended than I did in twi, even WITH it`s supposed superior understanding of scripture attained through pfal.
There must be more to the equation than superior scriptural understanding in our quest to become *of the spirit*...I think that arrogance instilled while in twi, along with over emphasis on scriptural accuracy could prevent one from achieving their goal.
There are long suits that churches enjoythat we have yet to master.
Look at the fruit is all I am saying before you judge them on their supposed lack in spiritual catagories that was defined by an evil organisation.
It is one more step towards spiritual/physical wholeness.
Trying to rework a failed system will not help you progress any further.
well that may be. I would be interested to see these churches that do not teach non biblical doctrine. Any names?
If it is non biblical then I would have to say the fruit is not so good. How can fruit that contradicts the bible be good fruit.
Quote: My conclusion? Either the *word* taught is not authentic, or if per chance it was, that it simply isn`t as important as we were led to believe if our goal is to be *of the spirit*
There may be another possibility perhaps some of the word taught was authentic. Maybe some people "just did not get it" not God's fault. Just like in school if the math teacher is a pervert doesnt make the math wrong just the teacher. I don't stop doing math because of a bad teacher.
Fruit can be deceiving I had a orange just today that looked good till I cut it open but it was not. I'm sure there will be those that swear that Paul Shanley brought fruit to their lives. and I still say if it is untruth and contradicts what the Bible says which is also where we find Jesus's words then it can not be good fruit even if it appears to be.
Dove, I din`t say they do not teach non biblical, they teach plenty of bible.
It is a myth of twi that bible isn`t taught *accuratly* they hit the most valid points and are still able to manifest good fruit and people *of the spirit* and many of them do this without requiring the young women to service the mog, forced abortions, forced abandonment of family members, seizure of assets...etc..
I am just saying that if you examine the fruit, you might find that the churches we so disdain for their *lack of knowledge* are in truth manifesting more *fruit of the spirit than twi as a group did.
There simply might be more to the equation than we are aware of.
There is much great fellowship and learning out here when we drop our superscillious attitudes, and honestly look.
Well I suppose our valid points may differ but Who God is.... and who Jesus is.... seems to me to be a pretty valid point in fact at the top of my list. Jesus knew who he was and if a church does not accept his words then I would have to say the fruit is suspect. How can you be a follower of Christ when you do not follow his words.
Someone awile back used the analogy of dang in the brownies regarding the way doctrine a little makes the brownie taste bad if that is true then it would also have to be true for churches. Jesus is God is dang in the brownie and people can kiss my cheek all they want and act nice and do all the social programs they want and say it don't taste bad but I know otherwise.
I'm not buying their baked goods they taste like well you know......
I agree with you that fruit can be deceptively pleasant on the social outside, but horrendously rotten on the spiritual inside.
My impressions are that the pleasant churches are social clubs at heart, and they have traditional Western Churchianity doctrines loaded with error set up as a permanent centerpiece on the table. For them the Bible provides a rough set of guidelines for social interactions (differing slightly depending on which denomination and interpretation) and is a mere decoration when it comes to deep spiritual matters, like the manifestations.
Good call too, White Dove, asking for names of institutions that are free from the big doctrinal errors. I noticed that when I issued a string of these errors yesterday, Thomas Loy Bumgarner issued a string of chapter titles to his favorite ministry's teaching program, completely avoiding the issue of whether those errors were present or absent from the program.
It's maddening to see how a church will get some doctrines right-on and then dive into the spiritual mud on others. I'll admit that at TWI we often dove into the social mud, especially in higher leadership areas. Some of that was justified due to the "heat of the battle" being more intense there, but it did degenerate to total crap by the late 80's.
If people want a social club, where pleasant things can take place, and some people problems can be worked on (and even some times solved), then some churches can be fine. But I want to see changes that are deeper than the social outer layers. I want to see progress in defeating the deeper causes of all problems.
Most socially successful churches present no threat to the adversary's power. They provide temporary shelter for the flock, as the adversary picks them off one by one at his discretion.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
Galen
Ex10-
“I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but.....
There's much more out there that is way better than PFAL.
I encourage you to look around a tad bit....
And I'm not talking splinters or clones. It's a real big Christian world out there.”
True,
As we have discussed many times before. Your experiences and mine have been entirely different. The Way ministry that you were a part of rarely resembled that which I was a part of. We have discussed this.
It is a wonderful world out there. We rather like BG Leonard’s class, we like PFAL, we like doing Word-Studies, we like fellowshipping with others and ministering to them.
We have dealt with a few churches, though so often we have found that they are businesses with bottom-lines that they must meet each month and they are often driven by that dollar amount.
Overall we do prefer home-based Bible study groups and pastoring.
It saddens me that so many were abused by TWI, as it saddens me that so many have been abused by the Baptists from which I find my roots. My wife’s roots are Catholic and we all know how many have been / and still are abused from within that fold.
There is a great and wonderful world of Christians out there, but we must look for them and bless them, somehow even while we are on guard for tyrants and abusive systems.
I cannot see how it would be possible after our long history of communications that even today you wish to release me from what you experienced within TWI. Such was not my experience, and even describing our fellowships, the fellowships that I have coordinated have been far more fiercely guarded from ‘wolves’, whether ‘loyal’ to TWI, or the Baptist conference, or whatever.
Please don’t place your history, and fears, and past abuses onto me, as if I went through them.
Thank you.
Bless you.
WW-
“Here, here!”
Okay fine, There there.
Dmiller-
“Really!? Wow -- that's alright. I figured there had to be payment, and a minimal amount of students before a class could run. Good for you.”
Hmm, we have not done that for many years.
Rascal-
“Arrogance learned in twi can be what that keeps us from enjoying meaningfull fellowship with our spiritual bretheren post twi.”
I agree, though most often when I say the exact same thing, I get blasted for not liking those who carried that arrogance the most – The Corpse.
“ *Fruit* would indicate that the churches that I attend have much more on the ball spiritually than TWI ever did, leading me to believe that the *word* taught in twi, despite their claims, may not have been authentic”
I think that both the Mennonites and the Mormons are two great examples of this. We have friends in both communities, and we easily walk among either group. Very loving and ‘fruitful’ believers.
Still does not prove to be a guarantee that nobody will be abused or mistreated.
:-)
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Mike
rascal,
Ther fruit manifested DOES tell a story. We drifted from the good stuff, got sloppy and ate bad TVT stuff, and manifested bad fruit.
As I've mentioned twice before here, you should EXPECT greater evil lurking nearby and close to the greater good.
I think we ought to give ANOTHER chance, not to the bad TVT we ate, but to the good books we were given. They once worked well for us until we drifted from them.
Edited by MikeLink to comment
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Dear Mike, Galen, and others.I will give the chapters from Alpha/Questionsof Life: Christianity-Boring, Untrue and Irrelvant? Why did Jesus Die, How can I be sure of my Faith,
Why and how should I read the bible,, how do I pray, how does God guide us, Who and what is the Holy Spirit, how can I be filled with the spirit, how can I resist evil, why and how do I tell others, does God heal today, what is the church? From Beginings?Along The Way are the following chapters: So, iis this all there is,
Who is Jesus and why should I care, Can I trust God, How does God speak to me,how do I speak to God, why should I join any group that will have me as a member? Neil Anderson's Beta is based on the following 2 books and chapters of Victory over the darkness, and the Bondage breaker:You can't live beyond what you believe,
the renewed mind,living by the spirit, Stand Firm, accussed by the father of lies, danger of deception, and finally Steps to freedom in Christ. Try Alphausa.com, Abingdon/Cokesbury,and
Harvest House for more info. Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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rascal
Sorry Mike, the first bite of maggot infested fruit was enough for this gal.
Galen, agreed, I think that is the whole key behind being instructed to look at the fruit in order to find out what is *of the flesh* and what is *of the spirit*. It makes it very easy to determine where to place our trust.
It is so beautifully simple.
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vickles
Well, if I am 'blessed' one day and then the rest of my life is plagued by evil, I want nothing to do with it.
Thanks but no thanks!!!!!!
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jardinero
I didn't read this entire thread as the opening post made me gag and think of a thread on an ex-Catholic website possibly opening something like this:
"I have recently been notified that during this month there are ten masses being said by Paul Shanley...
Hoorah!!!
Isn't that great?"
Now wouldn't that just "bless" the socks right off of you if you knew the details of Paul Shanley's "ministry"?
Still gagging,
J.
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skyrider
Mike.......PFAL has many elements and revelations that vpw put together. Problem is.....PFAL has lots of hidden meanings.....in fact, its an acronym in reverse.
LAFP....Looking At False Prophecies
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alfakat
""Please don’t place your history, and fears, and past abuses onto me, as if I went through them.""
Gee, Galen, the same might be said to you with your broken-turntable rant against all the kork...
sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander -- do you catch the drift, Galen???......
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CWF
Galen
I can find no harm in turning people on to this class. Although there are subjects that I myself no longer believe are absolute truth, the basics of it will help the new student get a handle on the how of the Bible.
Nothing wrong in that, and everything should be open for discussion.
What I find odd with some of my extwi family, is that they believed it all at one time, and now none of it. I never believed it all when I was associated with them, and that maybe my oddity. Oh well........
I'm sure there's other works out there that offer as much and even more knowledge, but I don't see the harm in offering this class to help others into reading Gods Word.
If I had never taken PFAL I probably would have never thought the Bible was and is the Word of God. That statement in it's self is priceless to me.
So whether you hate em or love em, VPW got some of us to read and consider the Bible as the standard for truth.
What would be a shame is to believe none of it.
Let God Umpire,
CWF
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vickles
and it also got some of us to never open it again!!!!!!!
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vickles
you know just even thinking about watching vpw with PFAL gives me the willies...
:(-->
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vickles
Galen, I do respect you for what you believe in but it still would bother me.
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GrouchoMarxJr
It's unbelievable how so many still worship at the feet of Vic the grifter and his spermsickle cult. I say throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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Oakspear
Even if one assumes that Wierwille was "right on" with his PFAL class, is that the best that can be done almost forty years after it was filmed? Can't you PFAL fans take what was learned and expand on it? Build on it? Teach the same basic stuff with your own lame jokes?
:D-->
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Oakspear
...and another thing
:P-->...
PFAL really wasn't what it was billed as: a class on "keys"
It was to promote Wierwille's doctrine, using those keys to illustrate the new and groovy doctrine.
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WordWolf
Well,
it did INCLUDE some keys.
I've never said the class was devoid of merit.
I object to the thinking that it is the be-all and end-all
of merit.
Likewise, I understand that the evil actions taken by vpw
in ruining the lives of some people queered them off opening
a Bible and reading it. I don't think that's the best
response, but I understand, and I understand that the
healing of their hearts may take a lifetime.
Myself, I think I benefitted from the time I spent putting
down my Bible, then picking it back up again with fresh
perspectives and new ideas.
BTW, Mike,
I STILL don't think most posters here are going to do
homework assignments when you assign them. You might try
plain speaking. Then we can agree or disagree, but we can
do it plainly.
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rascal
Great points jard.
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mstar1
Well Thank God for that,
Knowledge for knowledge sake puffeth up, if i remember rightly
Mike In my business I deal with churches of all types. Although they vary somewhat in their methods of practice, just about any one of the them is lightyears ahead of TWI in coordinating what they believe with making actual contributions to practical life.
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WhiteDove
We mistrust church because a ministry that manifested great evil and perpetrate dgreat harm on believers TOLD us to.....hmmmmm
Rascal I'd have to disagreee with that
I mistrust church because they have not proven themselves worthy of mine. Trust is earned. They are a business with a large overhead and they will teach and do what brings people in to pay that bill.
I have yet to find one that does not teach things like the trinity,water baptism,church doctrine,the dead are alive and a long list of other non biblical error. Why would I want to trust things I know to be wrong for a social club.You know if I went to school and they taught me 2+2=7 I most likely would not trust them to teach me math anymore why would I go to a church that doesn't teach truth. I can get ice cream at Dairy Queen.
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rascal
SOME churches dove, there are many spiritual christians out here.
As with any body you will find the spiritually *immature*> But, there IS gold to be found.....as I said even with the supposed doctrinal errors, I have yet to attend a church that manifested the evil twi did.
My conclusion? Either the *word* taught is not authentic, or if per chance it was, that it simply isn`t as important as we were led to believe if our goal is to be *of the spirit*
I see far more *fruit* in the churches that I have attended than I did in twi, even WITH it`s supposed superior understanding of scripture attained through pfal.
There must be more to the equation than superior scriptural understanding in our quest to become *of the spirit*...I think that arrogance instilled while in twi, along with over emphasis on scriptural accuracy could prevent one from achieving their goal.
There are long suits that churches enjoythat we have yet to master.
Look at the fruit is all I am saying before you judge them on their supposed lack in spiritual catagories that was defined by an evil organisation.
It is one more step towards spiritual/physical wholeness.
Trying to rework a failed system will not help you progress any further.
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WhiteDove
well that may be. I would be interested to see these churches that do not teach non biblical doctrine. Any names?
If it is non biblical then I would have to say the fruit is not so good. How can fruit that contradicts the bible be good fruit.
Quote: My conclusion? Either the *word* taught is not authentic, or if per chance it was, that it simply isn`t as important as we were led to believe if our goal is to be *of the spirit*
There may be another possibility perhaps some of the word taught was authentic. Maybe some people "just did not get it" not God's fault. Just like in school if the math teacher is a pervert doesnt make the math wrong just the teacher. I don't stop doing math because of a bad teacher.
Fruit can be deceiving I had a orange just today that looked good till I cut it open but it was not. I'm sure there will be those that swear that Paul Shanley brought fruit to their lives. and I still say if it is untruth and contradicts what the Bible says which is also where we find Jesus's words then it can not be good fruit even if it appears to be.
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rascal
Dove, I din`t say they do not teach non biblical, they teach plenty of bible.
It is a myth of twi that bible isn`t taught *accuratly* they hit the most valid points and are still able to manifest good fruit and people *of the spirit* and many of them do this without requiring the young women to service the mog, forced abortions, forced abandonment of family members, seizure of assets...etc..
I am just saying that if you examine the fruit, you might find that the churches we so disdain for their *lack of knowledge* are in truth manifesting more *fruit of the spirit than twi as a group did.
There simply might be more to the equation than we are aware of.
There is much great fellowship and learning out here when we drop our superscillious attitudes, and honestly look.
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WhiteDove
Well I suppose our valid points may differ but Who God is.... and who Jesus is.... seems to me to be a pretty valid point in fact at the top of my list. Jesus knew who he was and if a church does not accept his words then I would have to say the fruit is suspect. How can you be a follower of Christ when you do not follow his words.
Someone awile back used the analogy of dang in the brownies regarding the way doctrine a little makes the brownie taste bad if that is true then it would also have to be true for churches. Jesus is God is dang in the brownie and people can kiss my cheek all they want and act nice and do all the social programs they want and say it don't taste bad but I know otherwise.
I'm not buying their baked goods they taste like well you know......
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Mike
White Dove,
I agree with you that fruit can be deceptively pleasant on the social outside, but horrendously rotten on the spiritual inside.
My impressions are that the pleasant churches are social clubs at heart, and they have traditional Western Churchianity doctrines loaded with error set up as a permanent centerpiece on the table. For them the Bible provides a rough set of guidelines for social interactions (differing slightly depending on which denomination and interpretation) and is a mere decoration when it comes to deep spiritual matters, like the manifestations.
Good call too, White Dove, asking for names of institutions that are free from the big doctrinal errors. I noticed that when I issued a string of these errors yesterday, Thomas Loy Bumgarner issued a string of chapter titles to his favorite ministry's teaching program, completely avoiding the issue of whether those errors were present or absent from the program.
It's maddening to see how a church will get some doctrines right-on and then dive into the spiritual mud on others. I'll admit that at TWI we often dove into the social mud, especially in higher leadership areas. Some of that was justified due to the "heat of the battle" being more intense there, but it did degenerate to total crap by the late 80's.
If people want a social club, where pleasant things can take place, and some people problems can be worked on (and even some times solved), then some churches can be fine. But I want to see changes that are deeper than the social outer layers. I want to see progress in defeating the deeper causes of all problems.
Most socially successful churches present no threat to the adversary's power. They provide temporary shelter for the flock, as the adversary picks them off one by one at his discretion.
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