I'm tired of self-serving career geeks kicking all over the people I remember who gave so much seeking little more than the opportunity to help others, and for no pay and no recognition in the end. Not a one of any of us who tried is receiving a pension from the Way. I wasn't doing it for that. But you know where the pay off comes from?
Because I know what I was trying to do and what I did. And the people I interacted with know me, what I did and the kind of person I was, warts and all.
I know and if there is a God so does He. In the end what anyone else but my wife and family think of me isn't that important to me. I don't need the credit, I need the Life. And I've got it and those I personally had the honor to work with and who helped me are those to whom I myself will honor in my heart till the day I die and beyond, forever. That anyone didn't have the opportunity to have that same experience, I regret but I can't change the past.
Where and when OLG people accurately did do what PFAL taught, we OLG people got good to great results.
[Empty statement isolated from any example. It's a slogan. When PFAL taught that a parent's fear can kill a child, and when that was believed and spoken by grads, that ruined lives of anyone whose children suffered-it became their fault. When pfal declared that hypochondriacs drop dead, it was error. It was "pop psych" of the day, at best, but that made it no less ERROR. A more honest statement would have been-when we did what God wanted, we got good to great results. ]
But this was not always done accurately, and as time went on (by the mid 1980's) it got done LESS and LESS accurately.
[A proclamation just made by Mike out of the blue, with no supporting evidence. Considering how people sat thru more and more sessions, and could recite sessions down to the jokes and references to the India paper, this became less and less likely a possibility. And a LOT of classes were running by the mid 1980s. I myself was averaging, what, 3 pfals a year as a grad? ]
In the 70's we still had our collateral exposure fresh in mind, and what did work well for us was due to us literally believing what we were taught and acting on it.
[Mike believes that acting on the collaterals meant miraculous transformations at the time. That's not the report of all the other people around in the 70s.... Plus, in the 70s, by definition, people had sat thru fewer sessions, since fewer classes had run. However, that factlet contradicts Mike's theology, so it must be ignored.]
IN CONTRAST, we OLG people did everything BUT what Dr's final instructions directed us to do by the mid 80's.
[Actually, a lot of people WERE able to recite sections of his class. That's what the point was of "the Joy of Service"-it was a commercial to really work vpw's class. You're the only one seeing secret messages in the commercial that say the class and/or its components represent a new Bible.]
Starting in 1985, when Dr issued his final instructions, we OLG people did everything BUT seriously come back to written PFAL to master it in order to "energize the spirit" or whatever phrases may more accurately describe what we needed at that time.
[What we needed was less of the rigid classes, because the lockstep approach to Christianity-whether thru pfal or traditions-leads directly to the "churchianity" you label 99.5% of all Christians with. We did not need more intellectual knowledge. We did not need more memorization. We did not need more classes. We needed to REALLY do what they did in the First Century Church, and stop PRETENDING we did. Sadly, the "master pfal" approach is only going to lead to a new form of "churchianity" at best. If we had the real deal, we would not have felt the need for slogans about
"energizing" anything-the power would have been evident to all.]
The bad news is, therefore we OLG people failed PFAL, and PFAL did not fail us.
[The preceeding statements did not support the conclusion, so there is no "therefore". People did not "fail" the tapes, the books, or the sandwich boards. pfal, however, failed to match up to its hype, then, and it falls far shorter of the hype it is now Holy Writ. So, pfal failed then and fails you more now. ]
***
Anyone who tried to apply PFAL after Dr's death had the deck stacked against them, and I constantly must remind myself that they share none of this blame OLGs have for failing PFAL.
[same tapes, same books, same everything. No results. Can't POSSIBLY be the TAPES and BOOKS fail to match the hype, can it?....
The later arrivals missed the secret Gnostic meetings, and thus are not
Initiates of the Mysteries. Old, old story. ]
I have no doubt that PFAL did not work for non-OLGs after 1985.
[We agree on that. However, it didn't work before 1985, either. At least, in neither timeframe did it do what YOU claim it did. It supposedly was a class on KEYS. It delivered some keys. ]
After 1985, the accurate forms of PFAL in our minds was being daily smothered with proliferating TVTs.
[Which, if pfal was the shiznit, would have made little difference, since the classes and books were still in use like nobody's business. ]
Charismatic leaders were grinding out their own doctrines within the ministry before the meltdown in '86-89 and these many TVTs were becoming like separate denominations, hundreds of them, within the ministry.
[Except for the anti-adultery paper, little if any of this would affect the books and tapes.]
[bTW, the one BIG denomination was better than all the little ones is what you're saying, I just wanted to point that out to you.]
By 1990 most of them became official separate denominations, all diverging farther and farther from the accurate doctrine of PFAL.
[some diverged from pfal, some still run the thing unadjusted. The claim of "the accurate doctrine" is still a statement by fiat and has NOT been supported by anything except bald claims.]
When compared to the results of the 70's, these ersatz forms of PFAL have failed to produce too. I'd even include official '67 film/video classes run by TWI after 1985, as well as bootleg '67 film/video classes run by a few splinters after 1985.
[You actually don't know why splinters AND twi were less effective in the 1990s. That's rich. Here it is, in plain English. People could see the man behind the curtain. Those "inside" started to think for themselves, and rigid dogmatism became less effective. Things rose or fell based on their own merits, and less on hype. (More "fell" on that basis.) Further, information ruthlessly surpressed, even to the point of people committing suicide, was now impossible to fully surpress with the dawning of the internet. Places like the GSC help ensure fair dispersal of information, which is bad for dogmatists. All of that means that groups faced more HUMANS and fewer MACHINES, and, to the degree that they wanted a master/slave relationship, they lost members.]
***
The good news is, it's not too late. We OLGs can come back to written PFAL and see what we missed, and what we forgot, and what we got wrong.
[Or what Mike missed, ignored or misread, as the case may be. ]
We can find where exactly each one of us failed PFAL and get it right this time.
[sTILL an unsupported statement. Aren't you ashamed of failing Jiminy Cricket and getting him right this time?]
Once a few OLGs do this, non-OLGs will have a reason to give it a second try. We OLGs saw it work once, for a limited time, so we are generally the only ones who might be willing to take the risk and invest the time.
[People who fell for a bill of goods as callow youths, when offered a second change later in life, generally do not fall for the same sales pitches they fell for as callow youths.]
There was so much hatred embedded in the class that it is a true testimony that love can overpower hatred every time. That's why many left twi imo. Because the effects of pfal were beginning to become self evident.
I believe in love.
I doubt seriously if even Wierwille could see fully what pfal did and was doing.
I don't know much more love or strength I can put into the statement I made about pfal being a Black Widow.
Thanks for the "balance" socks.. myself, I met my share of good and bad corps. Seems they were either really really good- wanted to do God's best- those who were bad, well.. I guess you can find good and bad anywhere.
I still think either they "had it" or they didn't. If they didn't, all the classes, all the training in the world, all the sacrifice, did not get it. Look at Loy- can't make a silk MOG out of a, well, you know.. Maybe he "had it" at one time, maybe not- maybe he just threw it away.
I don't paint everything I learned or experienced from that place with the color of evil. Just some of it. And I still find myself coughing it up.
Sure, Vic taught us the word- sure he cared at times. But many times it was laced with strichnine- "ya oughta be mature enough to know you owe us your life" cause you just can't get this anywhere else- is a real prime candidate to be considered poison, not "rightly divided truth". But that poison was enough to nulify a lot of the good for a lot of folks. Still, a lot of us managed to take the good with us.
Burned my hand on that stove once- just not again. Too busy burning my hand on other stoves now, heh heh.
Any more, even the seemingly innocent idea of a mission statement for an organization really gets my attention. Any kind of "exclusivism" or country club persona, and I'm ready to scream. Just won't put up with it anymore.
"How are we different" a lot of times really comes down to "what do we have to sell". That's OK- but lets just be honest about it. No stupid claims- no unreasonable promises or expectations. "No, our magic pill won't make you an apostle, or a prophet- you just may be a regular Joe the rest of your life, and that's OK."
The offshoots seem to have taken this position. "Here, we have some material that may be of help". I respect that- a heck of a lot more than the promise-you-the-moon stance of how PFAL was promoted- even by the teacher himself.
"This class can answer 85 to 90 percent of any questions you have about the bible"- well, It delivered for me- I really did not have many questions- knew practically nothing about the Bible to begin with. So yes- it did. Others though- didn't answer anywhere NEAR eighty five percent.
Unreasonable claim.
Enables you to separate truth from error- questionable. Took me decades to get ....ed off about the concept of owing my life to some blood sucking cult. Took me at least three years to figure out that the guy who was screaming the loudest was not necessarily right. Spiritually, I was about as sharp as a brick. But I was the best tongues or interpreter guy this side of the mississippi, heh heh.
Another unreasonable claim.
Promotes harmony in the home- gads, I won't even go into this one.
As of yet, I still would like to hear from some specific parties- besides Galen, Kathy and others who got something out of it. God forbid that I should berate them. And I don't read any "promise you the moon" results there. Sure, it helped- some folk got something tangible out of it- but it's hardly a fitting replacement for the Almighty.
Mike, what has it done for you, really? It's a fair question. What has the constant study, the constant "mastering"- the constant "obedience" to da masters last command- what has it done for you? Or what has it done TO you? More nebulous "well, I'm just blessed now"- "I really undestand now"- understand what? "Well, I understand the administrations"- here are dozens of folks that just plain could never forget that simple teaching. Where's the beef? Other folks kindly piped up and said what they got out of it. Even I admit I got some profit out of it.
Really- I would really like to know- what is it doing for you?
Dunno. Sounds to me like somebody trying to reach "nirvana" through questionable means- get all the little detail lined up JUST right and bingo- everything changes from hell to paradise.
I'd like to chime in on what socks had said about The Way Corps and Galen's consitent use of the term "corpse."
I doubt that socks knows this but his life was an inspiration to me that helped me towards developing my own God-given talents. I was one of the thousands of people his personal ministry touched and had a very positive effect on. There are many many people born again today that made the decision to do so in direct respsonse to what they saw of socks. He is quite simple one of the finest people ever to wear the gree nametag.
Referring to him as "corpse" speaks death upon him as life & death ARE in the power of the tongue. It does the same to all of us who got involved in the WC as preparation for "A Lifetime of Christian Service." Whereas one cannot diminish the acoomplishments of those of us who really gave of our lives in service (there IS a JOY in service) to God's people, making such a reference as "corpse" like that ONLY dimishes the USER of the term.
"It is not what goes in to the mouth of a man that defiles him; it is what comes out of his mouth, that is what defiles a man."
Jesus taught me that.
I now see, at this point in my spiritual growth & development, that when I allow how I feel ablout what an "a$$hole" did to me to effect my life in ANY way - - the "a$$hole" wins.
Galen, I was surprised to see your statement:
quote:
I do find interesting, that everytime I speak of my dealings with Corpse, I manage to insult many Ex-Corpse. Though at the same time, others [like you in this case] totally agree with seeing everything that I saw [corpse being totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes].
How could you NOT insult many Corps grads? The very nature of terming us ALL as "corpse" because of the actions of a FEW that WE would rebuke as strongly as you, IS - - insulting. Do you really expect us to negate the insulting NATURE of your label and look deeper to the chewy caramel center of your words?
It is popular to say today in terms of loving relationships, "You had me at hello..." In terms of your constant and consistant use of the term; whenever I see it, the post, "LOSES me at "corpse."
What saddens me though, is that apparently some do not hold fast to the truth that what comes out of their own mouth defies them in the eyes of others. If someone does something that angers a person and the victim changes their life behind it the victim has given their power to the one who "angers them."
IMO, referring to ALL WC as Corpse represents a change in thinking resulting from the actions of theose referred to as "corpse being totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes."
If you let them change you, who is in control?
THEY, the "totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes" are.
They are what they are, what they were they were. Now here today, because you are mad at THEM, you insult socks and me, and all others who fall into the category as sock said....
I find it hard to believe that you, Galen, don't see the undeniable nature of the wrongs done you by certain individuals gives you no right speak death to ALL who were involved in the same schooling as the "a$$holes." You realluy don't see that your speaking hate-filled words labels YOU as a "hater?"
I had the pleasure of being a "spiritual partner" to a couple very nice people in the WAY CORP. - I still have and cherish all their letters. I think there were quite a few folks who went into the Corp with nothing but the noblest of intentions. For this reason I cannot diss the entire Corp.
Like any group, there were excellent folks, and there were arrogant jerks (who naturally tended to be louder).
I'm not sure "corpse" is meant as an insult in this case, HCW. It was coined on these boards long ago, probably by a corpse, errrr, corps person. Just part of the general lunacy of this place.
I certainly take no offense.
My take on the cork is that there were good & bad people, as you point out. And that the program was fatally & irreversably flawed.
"I doubt that socks knows this but his life was an inspiration to me that helped me towards developing my own God-given talents. I was one of the thousands of people his personal ministry touched and had a very positive effect on. There are many many people born again today that made the decision to do so in direct respsonse to what they saw of socks. He is quite simple one of the finest people ever to wear the gree nametag."
Than I am saddened that I did not have the opportunity to have met him.
From what I saw, when a person went out from HQ into the 'field' for their interim-year, they routinely 'bumped' the previously existing Twig Coordinator and took over the existing twig. Whoever was the local twig Coordinator previously, and their work [in terms of briging in new people, running classes, meeting people's needs]. If you had split your twig into 2 or even 4 twigs, and were functioning as a Branch-Coordinator, stand-by. As a WC grad would soon be on the scene to boot you out and take-over. [well as soon as the Limb noticed what you had done].
I know of one couple [Mike- this is you friends Frank and Patricia in San Diego], who had a Twig, but developed some Tagolog speakers so they began a second Twig [at different times] in Tagolog. But then they started getting a lot of Spanish-pople. So they studied Spanish, and started a Spanish-Twig [on different days]. They commonly would be running as many as 4 fellowships out of their home, in three languages. But everytime the limb caught on to what was happening, in went WC-grads to break it all up. Break-up the branch, appoint seperate WC-grads to each English twig, and forget those Spanish and Tagolog folks, they dont need a fellowship.
Is that what Socks did?
I saw what WC did while they operated in the Limb Offices. Frank and Patricia saw what they did when they ventured away from the Limb Office. Joe Beleivers fought these WC tooth and nail for years.
The only WC that I saw that: "helping others", ministering to the needy, and listening to God's call; where those WC who were obviously not 'in favour' and were in fact on some form of probation.
Was this Socks?
"Referring to him as "corpse" speaks death upon him as life & death ARE in the power of the tongue. ...."
I had not thought of it as such.
I do know many who: "Whereas one cannot diminish the acoomplishments of those of us who really gave of our lives in service (there IS a JOY in service) to God's people"
Un-fortunately are you truly sure that such distinction goes to WC-grads?
From my very limited expereinces, it would be difficult to imagine such.
I realize that this sounds as an insult. But have I not stated my case enough times, already? How many examples do I need explain? I read though other posts, and readily see many examples of others listing the many evils done by WC-grads.
As for me, I can only speak to that which I have seen and heard.
"making such a reference as "corpse" like that ONLY dimishes the USER of the term."
Nothing defiles me to the extent as those things of which I have seen WC-grads do to innocent beleivers.
"I now see, at this point in my spiritual growth & development, that when I allow how I feel ablout what an "a$$hole" did to me to effect my life in ANY way - - the "a$$hole" wins."
True.
"They are what they are, what they were they were. Now here today, because you are mad at THEM, you insult socks and me, and all others who fall into the category as sock said...."
Presuming that you are in fact, such a being as I never met, I apologize.
I could only wish that somewhere I could have served in the same limb as you or Socks did, perhaps I would have seen otherwise.
From my exposure to the Way Ministry, WC were a huge burden on the beleivers, and they singularly chased away more beleivers and did more harm then anything else that I am aware of [including any poor doctrine].
But again that was just from my extremely limited exposure of such a short term of years, and in only 6 states and 2 countries. :-)
I just want to add my two pence to the pile in favor of the good-hearted people in the Way Corps. I'm sure there are many on this board who will testify that the Way ministers who had the greatest negative impact on our lives were those who ran the Corps program (VP, LCM, Prez Rivenbark).
But I can also say that the people in TWI who had the greatest positive impact on my life were Corps people. Probably people very few of you would know; People like Jacques Kersaint, my WOW family coordinator, a guy with a heart of gold and an unshakable commitment to God and his Word. People like Gary Lee Corns, the WV LC who boldly and honestly told the whole state what was going on after POP, and did his best to lead us out of the corrupt mindset that taken root. People like Dan and Cathy Moore, the twig area coordinators in Huntington, WV, who served with humility and integrity and who continue to lead godly lives doing the best they can with what they learned.
People like this went into the Way Corps to get training to enable them to serve God and his people to the best of their ability. It's just unfortunate that these kind of Corps didn't have a greater influence on how the ministry was run.
Well- I don’t know if this is exactly the right place for this, and it is rather long, but- I do have my daughters permission to tell you guys about this, and it does fit the context of this thread, more or less. Considering only about three people reading this may actually know who we are I feel that I have some anonymity.
Anyway- what did PFAL do for me? There were four things that I can positively identify that were really useful after we left the ministry. 1. God is good, always. Somehow, I could never abandon that idea. Fine teaching, but could and have heard it a few hundred other places. 2. God’s will is for a person to be healed. Same thing- heard it even before I went to twig in the early days. 3. Don’t blame God. Pretty common, though some disagree. 4. God answers prayer. 5. Don’t condemn yourself. Sometimes crap just happens- and its not necessarily your fault. That one, I did NOT get from PFAL or the ministry, but thank God I figured it out before this story begins.
I think one of the absolute WORST errors in PFAL- “All life is spirit, cancer is life in itself, therefore cancer is caused by a devil spirit”- i.e., being “possessed”. That is downright closest to the most devilish thing I have ever heard. The only devil spirit I would consider would be the one promulgating that lie. Sure, it’s life in itself- but holy smokes- it’s not a stupid devil spirit, its GROWTH LIFE that’s gone amok. Anybody who’s anybody in Christianity or the medical profession knows this stuff. Why do those in the Way hold on to this kind primitive SUPERSTITION- and even some here?
When my older daughter was a sophomore in high school, she started experiencing extreme pain in her left knee. One day she fell on it- the pain was so severe that we demanded it to be x-rayed by the doctors. Then came the news- drop everything, run as fast as you can, it could be the worst thing possible. More x-rays, more tests- it was Osteogenic Sarcoma. If you have not heard of it- it is the absolute worst. It’s cancer in the soft tissues, and literally eats out bone mass. About sixty percent of the kids that contract this thing do not survive. Many do not survive the side effects of the treatments alone. Many have further complications after drugs and surgery- it spreads to the lungs- and most do not survive it when that happens.
When I heard this diagnosis- I did not think even once that we might lose her. To me, that was not even an option. Logically, God would have to energize some kind of healing. I did not condemn myself. Would have been easy to do- I know myself better than I should I suppose. One of the main things I prayed for is that her beauty would be protected- that she would retain her beauty through this crap, along with her zest for life.
By the way, I consider you folks friends. Even Mike- maybe a little wacky, but a friend nonetheless.
So here's more.
So… what did we do? We prayed. Then we sought out help. Not from the numbnuts in TWI- no way. I could almost hear the response- “well, you got what you deserved” or some such nonsense. “If you come back and prove yourself, grovel right, we MIGHT be able to do something”. We sought help and support from the community. Anybody that would pray, anybody that believed in healing, anybody that could help. We sought help from the school system. We found a LOT of real good, Christian individuals. Person after person, God put the right person in our path- not one of them was currently from the way, but several were ex-way- and yes, Corps Grads- they were wonderful, and they were real loving sincere people. One of the offshoot ministries actually helped us acquire good transportation to take her to the hospital and back. No condemning, no criticizing. No analysis, trying to figure out where “the fear” that caused it was- there was none anyway.
I think the main help and best advice came from some people who we didn’t even know what church or denomination they were with- but they said, "when she goes to the hospital, at least one of you had better be there with her, on guard. If you don’t like what they are doing- threaten, scream, do anything you have to. They can, and often do make mistakes- NEVER leave her alone”. This proved to be most valuable.
Whenever I've read the term "corpse" I've never actually taken it as an insult. I've even chuckled over its use as I fell like I understand the intent behind it.
I hope you guys see, & I think you do, that my point regarding it has more to do with the user using the term than the term "using" a user.
I can actually see a bit of humor in its use. AND it does appear an accurate term when looking from a certain POV.
Still it does "sting" me a bit each time I see it. Probably because my personal POV is that my blood boils when I hear of things like you, Galen, just posted of. Any good thing any good person did doesn't & can't negate the "step aside, let a "man" step in mentality some Corps presented you with.
For that I apologise. The Way Corps wasn't supposed to be about that. I would dare say the majority of folks weren't like that. I would also say that about 75% (I don't remember the exact figures) of active Corps were kicked out in the POP fallout. I'm saddened myself that you went through the experiences you mentioned.
quote:
I could only wish that somewhere I could have served in the same limb as you or Socks did, perhaps I would have seen otherwise.
Agreed. I wish no one had a wish like that. I don't feel your exposure was all that limited. IMO there is no excuse for that happening once. I for one will never negate your experiences. Even if I disagree with your opinions from time to time I'll never say your experiences are invalid.
I'll have to let socks speak for himself about where he served & what he did. In my experience about 98% of the rank & file believers I met were good people who were searching for God. I'm sure you're one of them.
God had just the right guy there to help us figure out that we needed to give her some real nutritional support, and what to do. By the way, he was Roman Catholic by religion. We ran across literature- even in the hospital of oddest places- talked about the benefits of tomato juice. Every little bit helped. The treatments destroy white blood cells- most receiving the treatment can experience some pretty bad infections. Most of the kids got one or more blood transfusion a week to replace the white cells. Our daughter only needed extra blood once.
Our daughter developed a real allergy to hospital food- just the smell of it and she heaved. The staff had to be instructed not to even open the door to the room during meal times. We found that she could eat and actually hold down, of all the oddest things, PIZZA- with the spiciest toppings, even during chemo sessions. Miracle one- we found a way that she could EAT. Thank God we did not have any numbnuts around to recommend that she just “renew her mind” to the hospital food- probably would have killed them, heh heh. But that much pizza was rather costly. The school had a couple of fund-raisers to generate a pizza fund- and it was needed- it was used up by the end of all the hospital visits.
We saw miracle after miracle. Even the small ones were big- one of them involved simply getting some ice cream for her. Somehow, just out of nowhere a “guy” shows up asking my now ex, “what can I do for you”? Could have asked for anything I guess- but “she would really like some ice cream”. Took FIVE minutes. Closest store was at least twenty minutes there and back, for what she specifically wanted. And this stuff was not available in the hospital, at least at that time. Miracle? You tell me.
Then the schedule came to rounds of Cis-Platin- and that was the worst chemotherapy agent- we declined. We saw what it did to kids- it was literally a “kid-killer”. Talked to the docs- said “well, the other stuff seems to be working- why not use another agent. We see what this stuff does to kids.” The latest biopsy from the bone surgery showed that the cancer was dead, kaput. Even the docs were not convinced that that the further treatments would not cause further cancer. They said no way, this is the program, and we won’t stray from it.. OK- the only other option we have is- we withdraw her from the “program”. “Fine”. At that point we knew it was right- she was healed. It has been over five years, and she has no reoccurrence. None- it’s gone.
Anybody wanna hold on to the old “cancer is devil” doctrine still? The “accuracy” of Doc Vics opinion about it? I’ve got some real issues with you. Anybody who could even THINK that this kid, who has three times the believing and goodness than I have can get possessed with a devil spirit from hell, I’ve got some real problems with you.
I think one reason we got deliverance- I took out the trash. Really. All the crap like “It must’ve been MY fault- what did I do wrong- just have to figure out where the fear is”- the forever analysis of the situation- how could something this so spiritually “wrong” get under my great all nine all the time radar? One thing I was convinced of- my daughter was not possessed. Sure, we trusted God- but we got out of His way. Let Him do His job. We had ours- it was to love and support our daughter the best we could. Trying to work in all of the little “magic keys” would have only done one thing- gotten in the way. All we could do is pray, read the bible a little, and expect the best.
How did we get the deliverance? I believe 1. The power of God. 2. The love from people. Not “the power of PFAL”.
Sure, PFAL helped- about five percent or so. It was only a TOOL. Sure, I learned a few things- God is good always, God heals- but with God Almighty working only in the confines of PFAL , I am convinced she would not have made it. I KNOW if we were involved with the ministry she would not have- we would have been berated and yelled at to no end for seeking outside help- help they could and would not have been able to provide. All the “mastering”, all the studying- good grief. Either you’ve got it or you don’t. Cripe- gotta work it over a couple of more hundred times? You’re just not honest “Master” PFAL? Ha. The only way you’re gonna “master” it is to get honest and be willing to throw out the junk that came with it, and keep the good, if you can. What are you afraid of? I’d rather toss some and find out I need to run back and dig it back out before the big truck comes, than to hold on to a bunch of error- and I have done that once or twice.
"I'm not sure "corpse" is meant as an insult in this case, HCW. It was coined on these boards long ago, probably by a corpse, errrr, corps person. Just part of the general lunacy of this place.
For any who think that the big, bad Way Corps were nothing but an impediment to "the movement of the Word", did you think that Wierwille wanted your blessed little fellowship to remain independent? Do you think that he didn't know that Corps grads and interim Corps trainees were going out and replacing non-Corps as fellowship leaders? Did you think that Wierwille developed the Way Corps as anything other than as a mechanism for control?
The abusive, controlling "Corps-Nazis" were just those who saw what was expected of them and did it. Expected by who? Wierwille, of course.
After PFAL was filmed, and a few key people started running with it, growth came without much oversight. The Way Corps didn't spring up spontaneously, Wierwille created it. The "I'm better than you" attitude didn't come out of nowhere, it was a logical and natural outgrowth of Wierwille's need to control and his no-it-all mindset that was enshrined in PFAL.
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Mar 1 2005
34 posts
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
socks
I'm tired of self-serving career geeks kicking all over the people I remember who gave so much seeking little more than the opportunity to help others, and for no pay and no recognition in the end. Not a one of any of us who tried is receiving a pension from the Way. I wasn't doing it for that. But you know where the pay off comes from?
Because I know what I was trying to do and what I did. And the people I interacted with know me, what I did and the kind of person I was, warts and all.
I know and if there is a God so does He. In the end what anyone else but my wife and family think of me isn't that important to me. I don't need the credit, I need the Life. And I've got it and those I personally had the honor to work with and who helped me are those to whom I myself will honor in my heart till the day I die and beyond, forever. That anyone didn't have the opportunity to have that same experience, I regret but I can't change the past.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf comments again in boldface as usual.]
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CM
socks,
And it's so sad that these men and women who were Corp, who love God and people, to not have had more to offer then pfal and it's associated stuff.
It was their love that I remember in many of the Corps. And that comes from the inside of a person's heart, not from a class.
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CM
There was so much hatred embedded in the class that it is a true testimony that love can overpower hatred every time. That's why many left twi imo. Because the effects of pfal were beginning to become self evident.
I believe in love.
I doubt seriously if even Wierwille could see fully what pfal did and was doing.
I don't know much more love or strength I can put into the statement I made about pfal being a Black Widow.
But it's time to see it as it is.
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Ham
Thanks for the "balance" socks.. myself, I met my share of good and bad corps. Seems they were either really really good- wanted to do God's best- those who were bad, well.. I guess you can find good and bad anywhere.
I still think either they "had it" or they didn't. If they didn't, all the classes, all the training in the world, all the sacrifice, did not get it. Look at Loy- can't make a silk MOG out of a, well, you know.. Maybe he "had it" at one time, maybe not- maybe he just threw it away.
I don't paint everything I learned or experienced from that place with the color of evil. Just some of it. And I still find myself coughing it up.
Sure, Vic taught us the word- sure he cared at times. But many times it was laced with strichnine- "ya oughta be mature enough to know you owe us your life" cause you just can't get this anywhere else- is a real prime candidate to be considered poison, not "rightly divided truth". But that poison was enough to nulify a lot of the good for a lot of folks. Still, a lot of us managed to take the good with us.
Burned my hand on that stove once- just not again. Too busy burning my hand on other stoves now, heh heh.
Any more, even the seemingly innocent idea of a mission statement for an organization really gets my attention. Any kind of "exclusivism" or country club persona, and I'm ready to scream. Just won't put up with it anymore.
"How are we different" a lot of times really comes down to "what do we have to sell". That's OK- but lets just be honest about it. No stupid claims- no unreasonable promises or expectations. "No, our magic pill won't make you an apostle, or a prophet- you just may be a regular Joe the rest of your life, and that's OK."
The offshoots seem to have taken this position. "Here, we have some material that may be of help". I respect that- a heck of a lot more than the promise-you-the-moon stance of how PFAL was promoted- even by the teacher himself.
"This class can answer 85 to 90 percent of any questions you have about the bible"- well, It delivered for me- I really did not have many questions- knew practically nothing about the Bible to begin with. So yes- it did. Others though- didn't answer anywhere NEAR eighty five percent.
Unreasonable claim.
Enables you to separate truth from error- questionable. Took me decades to get ....ed off about the concept of owing my life to some blood sucking cult. Took me at least three years to figure out that the guy who was screaming the loudest was not necessarily right. Spiritually, I was about as sharp as a brick. But I was the best tongues or interpreter guy this side of the mississippi, heh heh.
Another unreasonable claim.
Promotes harmony in the home- gads, I won't even go into this one.
As of yet, I still would like to hear from some specific parties- besides Galen, Kathy and others who got something out of it. God forbid that I should berate them. And I don't read any "promise you the moon" results there. Sure, it helped- some folk got something tangible out of it- but it's hardly a fitting replacement for the Almighty.
Mike, what has it done for you, really? It's a fair question. What has the constant study, the constant "mastering"- the constant "obedience" to da masters last command- what has it done for you? Or what has it done TO you? More nebulous "well, I'm just blessed now"- "I really undestand now"- understand what? "Well, I understand the administrations"- here are dozens of folks that just plain could never forget that simple teaching. Where's the beef? Other folks kindly piped up and said what they got out of it. Even I admit I got some profit out of it.
Really- I would really like to know- what is it doing for you?
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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Ham
Dunno. Sounds to me like somebody trying to reach "nirvana" through questionable means- get all the little detail lined up JUST right and bingo- everything changes from hell to paradise.
Too hard for me.. cripe, I'm not that smart.
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Ham
"Well, spiritually, you would never understand" is completely unacceptable. If it's THAT elusive, that hard to understand, it can't be the word.
I knew better than that even when I was busy gorging myself on the kool-aid.
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Ham
Still quiet here.. silence may speak volumes..
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vickles
Good question....mike are you going to answer? I would like to hear it also.
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Mike
Answer what?
I haven't had time to even read all the recent posts, let alone respond.
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HCW
Mike, as Janet Jackson said, consider PFAL....
What has it done for you late-ly?
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HCW
I'd like to chime in on what socks had said about The Way Corps and Galen's consitent use of the term "corpse."
I doubt that socks knows this but his life was an inspiration to me that helped me towards developing my own God-given talents. I was one of the thousands of people his personal ministry touched and had a very positive effect on. There are many many people born again today that made the decision to do so in direct respsonse to what they saw of socks. He is quite simple one of the finest people ever to wear the gree nametag.
Referring to him as "corpse" speaks death upon him as life & death ARE in the power of the tongue. It does the same to all of us who got involved in the WC as preparation for "A Lifetime of Christian Service." Whereas one cannot diminish the acoomplishments of those of us who really gave of our lives in service (there IS a JOY in service) to God's people, making such a reference as "corpse" like that ONLY dimishes the USER of the term.
"It is not what goes in to the mouth of a man that defiles him; it is what comes out of his mouth, that is what defiles a man."
Jesus taught me that.
I now see, at this point in my spiritual growth & development, that when I allow how I feel ablout what an "a$$hole" did to me to effect my life in ANY way - - the "a$$hole" wins.
Galen, I was surprised to see your statement:
How could you NOT insult many Corps grads? The very nature of terming us ALL as "corpse" because of the actions of a FEW that WE would rebuke as strongly as you, IS - - insulting. Do you really expect us to negate the insulting NATURE of your label and look deeper to the chewy caramel center of your words?
It is popular to say today in terms of loving relationships, "You had me at hello..." In terms of your constant and consistant use of the term; whenever I see it, the post, "LOSES me at "corpse."
What saddens me though, is that apparently some do not hold fast to the truth that what comes out of their own mouth defies them in the eyes of others. If someone does something that angers a person and the victim changes their life behind it the victim has given their power to the one who "angers them."
IMO, referring to ALL WC as Corpse represents a change in thinking resulting from the actions of theose referred to as "corpse being totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes."
If you let them change you, who is in control?
THEY, the "totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes" are.
They are what they are, what they were they were. Now here today, because you are mad at THEM, you insult socks and me, and all others who fall into the category as sock said....
I find it hard to believe that you, Galen, don't see the undeniable nature of the wrongs done you by certain individuals gives you no right speak death to ALL who were involved in the same schooling as the "a$$holes." You realluy don't see that your speaking hate-filled words labels YOU as a "hater?"
Hmmm.... come on now........
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TheInvisibleDan
I had the pleasure of being a "spiritual partner" to a couple very nice people in the WAY CORP. - I still have and cherish all their letters. I think there were quite a few folks who went into the Corp with nothing but the noblest of intentions. For this reason I cannot diss the entire Corp.
Like any group, there were excellent folks, and there were arrogant jerks (who naturally tended to be louder).
Danny
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TheEvan
I'm not sure "corpse" is meant as an insult in this case, HCW. It was coined on these boards long ago, probably by a corpse, errrr, corps person. Just part of the general lunacy of this place.
I certainly take no offense.
My take on the cork is that there were good & bad people, as you point out. And that the program was fatally & irreversably flawed.
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Galen
HCW:
"I doubt that socks knows this but his life was an inspiration to me that helped me towards developing my own God-given talents. I was one of the thousands of people his personal ministry touched and had a very positive effect on. There are many many people born again today that made the decision to do so in direct respsonse to what they saw of socks. He is quite simple one of the finest people ever to wear the gree nametag."
Than I am saddened that I did not have the opportunity to have met him.
From what I saw, when a person went out from HQ into the 'field' for their interim-year, they routinely 'bumped' the previously existing Twig Coordinator and took over the existing twig. Whoever was the local twig Coordinator previously, and their work [in terms of briging in new people, running classes, meeting people's needs]. If you had split your twig into 2 or even 4 twigs, and were functioning as a Branch-Coordinator, stand-by. As a WC grad would soon be on the scene to boot you out and take-over. [well as soon as the Limb noticed what you had done].
I know of one couple [Mike- this is you friends Frank and Patricia in San Diego], who had a Twig, but developed some Tagolog speakers so they began a second Twig [at different times] in Tagolog. But then they started getting a lot of Spanish-pople. So they studied Spanish, and started a Spanish-Twig [on different days]. They commonly would be running as many as 4 fellowships out of their home, in three languages. But everytime the limb caught on to what was happening, in went WC-grads to break it all up. Break-up the branch, appoint seperate WC-grads to each English twig, and forget those Spanish and Tagolog folks, they dont need a fellowship.
Is that what Socks did?
I saw what WC did while they operated in the Limb Offices. Frank and Patricia saw what they did when they ventured away from the Limb Office. Joe Beleivers fought these WC tooth and nail for years.
The only WC that I saw that: "helping others", ministering to the needy, and listening to God's call; where those WC who were obviously not 'in favour' and were in fact on some form of probation.
Was this Socks?
"Referring to him as "corpse" speaks death upon him as life & death ARE in the power of the tongue. ...."
I had not thought of it as such.
I do know many who: "Whereas one cannot diminish the acoomplishments of those of us who really gave of our lives in service (there IS a JOY in service) to God's people"
Un-fortunately are you truly sure that such distinction goes to WC-grads?
From my very limited expereinces, it would be difficult to imagine such.
I realize that this sounds as an insult. But have I not stated my case enough times, already? How many examples do I need explain? I read though other posts, and readily see many examples of others listing the many evils done by WC-grads.
As for me, I can only speak to that which I have seen and heard.
"making such a reference as "corpse" like that ONLY dimishes the USER of the term."
Nothing defiles me to the extent as those things of which I have seen WC-grads do to innocent beleivers.
"I now see, at this point in my spiritual growth & development, that when I allow how I feel ablout what an "a$$hole" did to me to effect my life in ANY way - - the "a$$hole" wins."
True.
"They are what they are, what they were they were. Now here today, because you are mad at THEM, you insult socks and me, and all others who fall into the category as sock said...."
Presuming that you are in fact, such a being as I never met, I apologize.
I could only wish that somewhere I could have served in the same limb as you or Socks did, perhaps I would have seen otherwise.
From my exposure to the Way Ministry, WC were a huge burden on the beleivers, and they singularly chased away more beleivers and did more harm then anything else that I am aware of [including any poor doctrine].
But again that was just from my extremely limited exposure of such a short term of years, and in only 6 states and 2 countries. :-)
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Jbarrax
I just want to add my two pence to the pile in favor of the good-hearted people in the Way Corps. I'm sure there are many on this board who will testify that the Way ministers who had the greatest negative impact on our lives were those who ran the Corps program (VP, LCM, Prez Rivenbark).
But I can also say that the people in TWI who had the greatest positive impact on my life were Corps people. Probably people very few of you would know; People like Jacques Kersaint, my WOW family coordinator, a guy with a heart of gold and an unshakable commitment to God and his Word. People like Gary Lee Corns, the WV LC who boldly and honestly told the whole state what was going on after POP, and did his best to lead us out of the corrupt mindset that taken root. People like Dan and Cathy Moore, the twig area coordinators in Huntington, WV, who served with humility and integrity and who continue to lead godly lives doing the best they can with what they learned.
People like this went into the Way Corps to get training to enable them to serve God and his people to the best of their ability. It's just unfortunate that these kind of Corps didn't have a greater influence on how the ministry was run.
Peace
JerryB
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ex10
Galen
You're always gonna be the outsider looking in. You'll never know what the insider perspective is. And I don't think you really care to.
Fine.
:)-->
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Ham
I suppose I should take up my own challenge..
Well- I don’t know if this is exactly the right place for this, and it is rather long, but- I do have my daughters permission to tell you guys about this, and it does fit the context of this thread, more or less. Considering only about three people reading this may actually know who we are I feel that I have some anonymity.
Anyway- what did PFAL do for me? There were four things that I can positively identify that were really useful after we left the ministry. 1. God is good, always. Somehow, I could never abandon that idea. Fine teaching, but could and have heard it a few hundred other places. 2. God’s will is for a person to be healed. Same thing- heard it even before I went to twig in the early days. 3. Don’t blame God. Pretty common, though some disagree. 4. God answers prayer. 5. Don’t condemn yourself. Sometimes crap just happens- and its not necessarily your fault. That one, I did NOT get from PFAL or the ministry, but thank God I figured it out before this story begins.
I think one of the absolute WORST errors in PFAL- “All life is spirit, cancer is life in itself, therefore cancer is caused by a devil spirit”- i.e., being “possessed”. That is downright closest to the most devilish thing I have ever heard. The only devil spirit I would consider would be the one promulgating that lie. Sure, it’s life in itself- but holy smokes- it’s not a stupid devil spirit, its GROWTH LIFE that’s gone amok. Anybody who’s anybody in Christianity or the medical profession knows this stuff. Why do those in the Way hold on to this kind primitive SUPERSTITION- and even some here?
When my older daughter was a sophomore in high school, she started experiencing extreme pain in her left knee. One day she fell on it- the pain was so severe that we demanded it to be x-rayed by the doctors. Then came the news- drop everything, run as fast as you can, it could be the worst thing possible. More x-rays, more tests- it was Osteogenic Sarcoma. If you have not heard of it- it is the absolute worst. It’s cancer in the soft tissues, and literally eats out bone mass. About sixty percent of the kids that contract this thing do not survive. Many do not survive the side effects of the treatments alone. Many have further complications after drugs and surgery- it spreads to the lungs- and most do not survive it when that happens.
When I heard this diagnosis- I did not think even once that we might lose her. To me, that was not even an option. Logically, God would have to energize some kind of healing. I did not condemn myself. Would have been easy to do- I know myself better than I should I suppose. One of the main things I prayed for is that her beauty would be protected- that she would retain her beauty through this crap, along with her zest for life.
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Ham
By the way, I consider you folks friends. Even Mike- maybe a little wacky, but a friend nonetheless.
So here's more.
So… what did we do? We prayed. Then we sought out help. Not from the numbnuts in TWI- no way. I could almost hear the response- “well, you got what you deserved” or some such nonsense. “If you come back and prove yourself, grovel right, we MIGHT be able to do something”. We sought help and support from the community. Anybody that would pray, anybody that believed in healing, anybody that could help. We sought help from the school system. We found a LOT of real good, Christian individuals. Person after person, God put the right person in our path- not one of them was currently from the way, but several were ex-way- and yes, Corps Grads- they were wonderful, and they were real loving sincere people. One of the offshoot ministries actually helped us acquire good transportation to take her to the hospital and back. No condemning, no criticizing. No analysis, trying to figure out where “the fear” that caused it was- there was none anyway.
I think the main help and best advice came from some people who we didn’t even know what church or denomination they were with- but they said, "when she goes to the hospital, at least one of you had better be there with her, on guard. If you don’t like what they are doing- threaten, scream, do anything you have to. They can, and often do make mistakes- NEVER leave her alone”. This proved to be most valuable.
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HCW
Whenever I've read the term "corpse" I've never actually taken it as an insult. I've even chuckled over its use as I fell like I understand the intent behind it.
I hope you guys see, & I think you do, that my point regarding it has more to do with the user using the term than the term "using" a user.
I can actually see a bit of humor in its use. AND it does appear an accurate term when looking from a certain POV.
Still it does "sting" me a bit each time I see it. Probably because my personal POV is that my blood boils when I hear of things like you, Galen, just posted of. Any good thing any good person did doesn't & can't negate the "step aside, let a "man" step in mentality some Corps presented you with.
For that I apologise. The Way Corps wasn't supposed to be about that. I would dare say the majority of folks weren't like that. I would also say that about 75% (I don't remember the exact figures) of active Corps were kicked out in the POP fallout. I'm saddened myself that you went through the experiences you mentioned.
Agreed. I wish no one had a wish like that. I don't feel your exposure was all that limited. IMO there is no excuse for that happening once. I for one will never negate your experiences. Even if I disagree with your opinions from time to time I'll never say your experiences are invalid.
I'll have to let socks speak for himself about where he served & what he did. In my experience about 98% of the rank & file believers I met were good people who were searching for God. I'm sure you're one of them.
God bless you all.
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Ham
God had just the right guy there to help us figure out that we needed to give her some real nutritional support, and what to do. By the way, he was Roman Catholic by religion. We ran across literature- even in the hospital of oddest places- talked about the benefits of tomato juice. Every little bit helped. The treatments destroy white blood cells- most receiving the treatment can experience some pretty bad infections. Most of the kids got one or more blood transfusion a week to replace the white cells. Our daughter only needed extra blood once.
Our daughter developed a real allergy to hospital food- just the smell of it and she heaved. The staff had to be instructed not to even open the door to the room during meal times. We found that she could eat and actually hold down, of all the oddest things, PIZZA- with the spiciest toppings, even during chemo sessions. Miracle one- we found a way that she could EAT. Thank God we did not have any numbnuts around to recommend that she just “renew her mind” to the hospital food- probably would have killed them, heh heh. But that much pizza was rather costly. The school had a couple of fund-raisers to generate a pizza fund- and it was needed- it was used up by the end of all the hospital visits.
We saw miracle after miracle. Even the small ones were big- one of them involved simply getting some ice cream for her. Somehow, just out of nowhere a “guy” shows up asking my now ex, “what can I do for you”? Could have asked for anything I guess- but “she would really like some ice cream”. Took FIVE minutes. Closest store was at least twenty minutes there and back, for what she specifically wanted. And this stuff was not available in the hospital, at least at that time. Miracle? You tell me.
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Ham
Then the schedule came to rounds of Cis-Platin- and that was the worst chemotherapy agent- we declined. We saw what it did to kids- it was literally a “kid-killer”. Talked to the docs- said “well, the other stuff seems to be working- why not use another agent. We see what this stuff does to kids.” The latest biopsy from the bone surgery showed that the cancer was dead, kaput. Even the docs were not convinced that that the further treatments would not cause further cancer. They said no way, this is the program, and we won’t stray from it.. OK- the only other option we have is- we withdraw her from the “program”. “Fine”. At that point we knew it was right- she was healed. It has been over five years, and she has no reoccurrence. None- it’s gone.
Anybody wanna hold on to the old “cancer is devil” doctrine still? The “accuracy” of Doc Vics opinion about it? I’ve got some real issues with you. Anybody who could even THINK that this kid, who has three times the believing and goodness than I have can get possessed with a devil spirit from hell, I’ve got some real problems with you.
I think one reason we got deliverance- I took out the trash. Really. All the crap like “It must’ve been MY fault- what did I do wrong- just have to figure out where the fear is”- the forever analysis of the situation- how could something this so spiritually “wrong” get under my great all nine all the time radar? One thing I was convinced of- my daughter was not possessed. Sure, we trusted God- but we got out of His way. Let Him do His job. We had ours- it was to love and support our daughter the best we could. Trying to work in all of the little “magic keys” would have only done one thing- gotten in the way. All we could do is pray, read the bible a little, and expect the best.
How did we get the deliverance? I believe 1. The power of God. 2. The love from people. Not “the power of PFAL”.
Sure, PFAL helped- about five percent or so. It was only a TOOL. Sure, I learned a few things- God is good always, God heals- but with God Almighty working only in the confines of PFAL , I am convinced she would not have made it. I KNOW if we were involved with the ministry she would not have- we would have been berated and yelled at to no end for seeking outside help- help they could and would not have been able to provide. All the “mastering”, all the studying- good grief. Either you’ve got it or you don’t. Cripe- gotta work it over a couple of more hundred times? You’re just not honest “Master” PFAL? Ha. The only way you’re gonna “master” it is to get honest and be willing to throw out the junk that came with it, and keep the good, if you can. What are you afraid of? I’d rather toss some and find out I need to run back and dig it back out before the big truck comes, than to hold on to a bunch of error- and I have done that once or twice.
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Galen
TheEvan:
"I'm not sure "corpse" is meant as an insult in this case, HCW. It was coined on these boards long ago, probably by a corpse, errrr, corps person. Just part of the general lunacy of this place.
I certainly take no offense."
Bless you :-)
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Oakspear
For any who think that the big, bad Way Corps were nothing but an impediment to "the movement of the Word", did you think that Wierwille wanted your blessed little fellowship to remain independent? Do you think that he didn't know that Corps grads and interim Corps trainees were going out and replacing non-Corps as fellowship leaders? Did you think that Wierwille developed the Way Corps as anything other than as a mechanism for control?
The abusive, controlling "Corps-Nazis" were just those who saw what was expected of them and did it. Expected by who? Wierwille, of course.
After PFAL was filmed, and a few key people started running with it, growth came without much oversight. The Way Corps didn't spring up spontaneously, Wierwille created it. The "I'm better than you" attitude didn't come out of nowhere, it was a logical and natural outgrowth of Wierwille's need to control and his no-it-all mindset that was enshrined in PFAL.
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