I don't believe I've ever said that PFAL writings REPLACE the ancient scriptures.
To use just that one word "replace" is to misrepresent me. You listened to what others said I said, and not what I actually wrote.
(snip)
It's ridiculous to think that PFAL replaces the same scriptures it discusses in great length. If it WERE to replace them, it would immediately re-instate them and their importance in the eyes of any reader.
In a practical sense PFAL "replaces" the ancient scriptures in the same way Paul's epistles "replace" the law of Moses. In other words, PFAL only "sort of replaces" the ancient scriptures.
Mike, 6/15/03, 5:49pm, Eastern.
quote:
I'd say it's not a replacement for the Bible but a replacement for the
traditional SOURCES from which we can GET the Bible.
Mike, 6/3/02, 12:18am, Eastern.
quote:
When I say "unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants,", I am referring to the
MODERN hand-me-down versions of scripture, along with the usual suspects like
It would be more gentlemanly of you if you'd supply links to all those quotes of me that you stripped of their context and posted above.
The idea of replacement I have presented here is very limited, and the surrounding context expresses that limitation. Please don't isolate small pieces of what I write without making the context abundantly easy for the reader to find.
Supplying those links is sometimes hard work, because if the threads are moved their link changes. HOWEVER, if you're going to quote me like that I should not have to be the one to find the links and re-post the context. You should make it easy for readers to check the context in which my quotes occur.
And worse, some of the threads from which you quoted me may have been pruned in recent weeks, or they may be pruned at some future time. This would make it impossible for a reader to check if you had or had not wrenched my quote from a crucial context and distorted it.
***
Until then this context issue can be settled, let me put my position on replacement in the simplest terms that I can at this point.
In the study schedules of OLGs only, I advocate that for their usual daily study hours, they replace their KJV (or NIV or whatever) with the written PFAL texts.
For example, suppose OLG extraordinaire Johnny Jumpup spends one hour per day in his KJV and five or ten minutes in PFAL in one or two sittings every six weeks. I'd then advocate this OLG Johnny that he replace his KJV in the one hour per day habit with PFAL, and spend five or ten minutes in one or two sittings every six weeks with the KJV.
Extending that example, I'd advocate that those OLGs who spend no regular time in any Bible to come back to PFAL and replace some weekly TV shows with it.
I hope this TV show replacement urging of mine is less controversial than my above urging for disciplined Bible readers to replace their KJVs.
I'd be interested to know just how many Bible reading hours per day most of the posters on this thread clock up.
***
I have another example of my position. I think I stated this in my first weeks of posting.
I advocate for OLGs that they try to get together weekly with other OLGs, if possible, just like the "Grad Night" format fellowships that was relatively common in the early 70's.
For these special fellowships I'd advocate replacing KJV Bible study with collateral study. The teacher would teach from a collateral, and all the people would follow along in their own copies of the same collateral. Mastering PFAL together for OLGs is a big thing. People should try it some time. Kids could be included, but I'd somewhat hold off on new people.
Again: The idea of replacement I have presented here is very limited, and the surrounding context expresses that limitation. Please don't isolate small pieces of what I write without making the context abundantly easy for the reader to find.
It would be more gentlemanly of you if you'd supply links to all those quotes of me that you stripped of their context and posted above.
The idea of replacement I have presented here is very limited, and the surrounding context expresses that limitation.
[in a variety of contexts, you've said the modern Bibles are almost useless-"unreliable fragments and tattered remnants", then contradicted that as "approximations" later. Your position that the pfal materials supercede any modern Bible does NOT depend on a context to make it clear. Adding words to "pad it out" only "camoflages" it. ]
Please don't isolate small pieces of what I write without making the context abundantly easy for the reader to find.
[ You're saying the readers are unable to use the search feature to find a quote when they have a full sentence, the poster's name, and the date/time of the post? Just how stupid are you suggesting they are? Or are they simply inept at search engines, in your view? ]
Supplying those links is sometimes hard work, because if the threads are moved their link changes.
[And yet, they are still searchable, and everything I gave identifying it stays the same....]
HOWEVER, if you're going to quote me like that I should not have to be the one to find the links and re-post the context.
[Go ahead and repost the context. You'll feel silly reposting it only to underscore I kept the meaning intact. Still, you want to waste the time, knock yourself out. Just don't forget you've HCW's posts to address, and this won't make us conveniently forget that.]
You should make it easy for readers to check the context in which my quotes occur.
And worse, some of the threads from which you quoted me may have been pruned in recent weeks,
[They're sitting there now, can't use that excuse to hide your message]
or they may be pruned at some future time.
[Which makes posting a link to them rather futile. Can't blame me because you're so long-winded that you've generated hundreds of pages of hot air that were pruned by management. You could have explained yourself in 2-3 pages, or even 20-30 pages, complete with full discussions and digressions. ]
This would make it impossible for a reader to check if you had or had not wrenched my quote from a crucial context and distorted it.
[You're just itching to invoke that excuse for your doctrine, of course. Anything to keep a clear exposure of your positions. Hey, it's not like I reposted what you said about Jesus teaching out of PFAL and having it in his hand, or Jesus telling you how interested he is in pfal...]
***
Until then this context issue
[this is a non-issue you've manufactured, but go ahead and ramble some more]
can be settled, let me put my position on replacement in the simplest terms that I can at this point.
In the study schedules of OLGs only, I advocate that for their usual daily study hours, they replace their KJV (or NIV or whatever) with the written PFAL texts.
For example, suppose OLG extraordinaire Johnny Jumpup spends one hour per day in his KJV and five or ten minutes in PFAL in one or two sittings every six weeks. I'd then advocate this OLG Johnny that he replace his KJV in the one hour per day habit with PFAL, and spend five or ten minutes in one or two sittings every six weeks with the KJV.
Extending that example, I'd advocate that those OLGs who spend no regular time in any Bible to come back to PFAL and replace some weekly TV shows with it.
I hope this TV show replacement urging of mine is less controversial than my above urging for disciplined Bible readers to replace their KJVs.
I'd be interested to know just how many Bible reading hours per day most of the posters on this thread clock up.
[before you start counting your chickens, let me return the favour for your plain speaking. You've just made a plain statement, to be specific, you've advocated a course of action, in plain English, yet. The risk of misunderstanding WHAT, therefore, is small. We can then proceed to the next question, WHY. As you often seem to overlook, the posters here do NOT see you as qualified to take the lead over them or give good advice. Therefore, the obvious question is: WHY would I (any reader) spend ANY time in a pfal book? See, now we have a specific question, and there's 2 sides to that: A) you should spend time in pfal books and
B) you should NOT spend time in pfal books.
This can now be discussed. An open discussion on possible merits and shortcomings of this should make it clear WHICH is the better position to take. Therefore, you're back at the same impasse you've tried to dodge almost the entire time you've been here.... Gonna address it this time? ]
***
I have another example of my position. I think I stated this in my first weeks of posting.
I advocate for OLGs that they try to get together weekly with other OLGs, if possible, just like the "Grad Night" format fellowships that was relatively common in the early 70's.
For these special fellowships I'd advocate replacing KJV Bible study with collateral study. The teacher would teach from a collateral, and all the people would follow along in their own copies of the same collateral. Mastering PFAL together for OLGs is a big thing. People should try it some time. Kids could be included, but I'd somewhat hold off on new people.
[This is a separate, related, more complex issue, and addressing the former issue should be done before attempting to address this one. ]
Again: The idea of replacement I have presented here is very limited, and the surrounding context expresses that limitation.
[Well, that's what you've advocated TODAY, anyway...]
Please don't isolate small pieces of what I write without making the context abundantly easy for the reader to find.
[Please stop pretending I've done that in the past or have any intention of doing it in the future. ]
I'd like to get back to what HCW said about pfal working, and WTH's response for a second here.
Does pfal work? Depends on the results that you are looking for I suppose.
Looking at the results of pfal and even looking at the results of Mike's version of pfal leaves one still without answers to many questions.
Signs, miracles and wonders were not on the green card as a benefit of the class but it was taught within it and supposedly we were instructed on how to bring these to pass, and how they work. Manifestations were also taught and explained about how they work too. Along with fruit of the spirit and many things.
And for that and the rest of the promises of pfal-going by pfal and the kjv, it will not work. Never has and never will. It gave us very little real instruction on spiritual matters in sessions 1-8. And 9-12 are just plain wrong imo.
So, personally, I had to step back away from pfal and the many books and classes that go with it, and get it out of my thinking and life. Which took some doing and a lot of help from others. And go by what I believe are the simple things that are in the bible and proceed from there. Sort of rebooted my brain so to speak. And then I was free to test other viewpoints and ways of thinking. Yes, free to test, to take a little step into different directions and then free to back out as I please, or proceed further, still maintaining the option to back out.
And then from there, by God's grace, I have seen some of His promises come to pass in my life. And I'm quite confident that He will come through with the rest of His promises as I grow in understanding of what the promises really are.
Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous.
What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance?
This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord".
No ministries of miracles and healing where you live? If PFAL is right, you can rise up and do it. Lets see it happen. Let's see YOU do it.
Need to walk on water? Let's see YOU do it first.
I'm not trying to be "mean"- I really care. At first I thought this stuff was laughable- now I realize that you REALLY believe it.
Practically, doctrinally, and logically, PFAL has failed. Some of us were "lucky" enough to sort some good out of it.
In this matter I will not share details, but some of the errors have cost me, big time.
Holy cow- makes me think God doesn't have enough ministries to pass around, so he has to put them out on loan.. don't return them on time- the overdue fines are horrific..
Lack of results? Loy came up with a nice little explanation- that the spirit of God did not come ENERGIZED, like in the old testament. That seems to fix some of the difficulties..
Oh well, more retemorizing, more S.I.T.ing eighteen hours a day, more "researching" of ministry materials, more stupid dumb blind obedience, more giving- now over fifteen percent, etc. etc. etc. More, more more.
I think most folks found that even that did not work, either.
Good grief- either its energized, or its not.
Either you've got the power, or you don't. You telling me that "the fullness of the spirit" needs YOUR help "getting it started"? Maybe you just need to get out and push a little harder.
Like it or not, some of the folk in history that had the MOST to contribute to the Christian Church NEVER spoke in tongues, not once.
Where and when OLG people accurately did do what PFAL taught, we OLG people got good to great results. But this was not always done accurately, and as time went on (by the mid 1980's) it got done LESS and LESS accurately. In the 70's we still had our collateral exposure fresh in mind, and what did work well for us was due to us literally believing what we were taught and acting on it.
IN CONTRAST, we OLG people did everything BUT what Dr's final instructions directed us to do by the mid 80's.
Starting in 1985, when Dr issued his final instructions, we OLG people did everything BUT seriously come back to written PFAL to master it in order to "energize the spirit" or whatever phrases may more accurately describe what we needed at that time.
The bad news is, therefore we OLG people failed PFAL, and PFAL did not fail us.
***
Anyone who tried to apply PFAL after Dr's death had the deck stacked against them, and I constantly must remind myself that they share none of this blame OLGs have for failing PFAL.
I have no doubt that PFAL did not work for non-OLGs after 1985. After 1985, the accurate forms of PFAL in our minds was being daily smothered with proliferating TVTs. Charismatic leaders were grinding out their own doctrines within the ministry before the meltdown in '86-89 and these many TVTs were becoming like separate denominations, hundreds of them, within the ministry. By 1990 most of them became official separate denominations, all diverging farther and farther from the accurate doctrine of PFAL.
When compared to the results of the 70's, these ersatz forms of PFAL have failed to produce too. I'd even include official '67 film/video classes run by TWI after 1985, as well as bootleg '67 film/video classes run by a few splinters after 1985.
***
The good news is, it's not too late. We OLGs can come back to written PFAL and see what we missed, and what we forgot, and what we got wrong. We can find where exactly each one of us failed PFAL and get it right this time. Once a few OLGs do this, non-OLGs will have a reason to give it a second try. We OLGs saw it work once, for a limited time, so we are generally the only ones who might be willing to take the risk and invest the time.
That's all well and good, but- I feel a couple challenges are left unanswered.
I still believe:
1. I do not owe my very life to ANY ministry that "taught me the word". I consider the implication dishonorable, self-serving and downright DEVILISH. period. They do not "own" me, in any way, shape or form. My Bible says that the earth is THE LORD'S, and the people therein. Yet this was a key theme in the intermediate class- even printed in the materials. Remember the eighties? Loy circulating his little "loyalty oath"? Same dadburned thing. We owe those bunch of numbnuts NOTHING. Except to love perhaps- and believe me, we've paid- again and again. Now they accept no payment. You're too old. Don't need you anymore- they have a younger crowd they're trying to whip into shape to kiss their rears in ways you'd never understand. But it's the same scam, "well, we've given you EVERYTHING (ha!). Now you owe us, big time". Same devilish crap- and it did not start with them, it started in PFAL.
2. Nobody, just nobody can by their own believing or otherwise, turn themselves into a prophet. The whole idea that you can "believe" to perform the function of a prophet without God Almighty's stamp of approval is futile, at the best. Same for any other ministry- includes gifts of healings, helps, governments, etc. Either you have it, or you don't. If you think you can believe to get it, go ahead and try. I know better.
3. Show me the results. Really. Now, or then. If it is what it claims to be, you should get the results that it claims. The results I saw in the seventies- the good old days- were few and far between. Not too mention more often fabricated than not. Among the greatly touted "results" I heard in the seventies: person "miraculously" had money in their checking account. They removed said money to pay for class. Low and behold, the checks out on the account came in the next few days- nothing more abundant than having a half a dozen angry merchants at your door, must have just been the debil, I guess..
Sure, some good things happened, but not to the level that it glorified the greatness of PFAL. Heck, I spoke in tongues and saw a miracle or two LONG before I took any class.
That's why they'd never have me back, now. One stupid statement like "if you are really mature, you should know that you owe us your life" and I'd be on them like there's no tomorrow. Even in a church or other place. I wouldn't care if it was "out of order". No friggin way.
Normally, I'm a nice guy, try to get along with people- but try this stuff- especially on my kids, and they're gonna see a side of me they wished they never had.
I'm still spitting out the crap I swallowed all those years.. ptooie.
Practically, doctrinally, and logically, PFAL has failed. Some of us were "lucky" enough to sort some good out of it.
In this matter I will not share details, but some of the errors have cost me, big time.
I don't know how I'd state it right now but it's like it provided but it wasn't the "all in al". Yet I'm thankful I received some good from it.
But in the same as you I've paid big time. While chapter and verse was tweaked just enough to not turn your ear, yet contained error that would lead you astray. This stuff is subtle and it had to start somewhere.
It would have made no difference if it were twi, Southern Baptist or whatever....errors are human. But to deliberately lead people in an error is what I still believe some of the teachings from twi offered.
Um, well I guess you were the as you said "lucky" one to hear my spiel. :)-->
Hello Kathy.. yep- I'm thankful for what good I got out of it too.
Still, it seems we paid, and kept paying- still paying- I think I know how a cat feels, still coughing up furballs once in a while, heh heh. Just when I think it's all over, here comes another one.. blecch.
I think Mike is doing us- or me- more of a service than he realizes. Nowhere else have I been able to cough up this crap and really get a handle on it. Dislike his opinion as much as some do, it still has a beneficial effect. Really convinces me that I'd never go back to some of that crap- never- no matter what the promises, no matter what the guarantees.
"Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous."
I have read this said now a few times.
A prophet simply speaks for G-d.
I don't see the big problem with the idea that, someday as I am doing what I do, hearing/feeling the little nudge "look over there, see that guy, he needs to be blessed", and when I get there "tell him it's okay things like this happen in life, tomorrow is a new day with new opportunitys", so I tell him exactly what I hear to tell him. When I am done, I walk away.
My job is done. Our Heavenly Father wanted something said to this guy, and I said it.
During that moment I acted as a prophet. Am I a prophet? Not really, not that I know of. Of course the person does not really know do they. None of this means that I walk full-time with the ministry of a prophet. I am simply a son, doning what my Father needs to be done.
I dont see the big deal in saying that at sometime, the body of Christ may need you to perform a given function.
"What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance?"
I dont see the big deal. If your not a prophet than great, your not. So what. I dont see how that stops Our Heavenly Father from calling on you to go do something every now and again.
I dont see this as being 'given' something and then later it being yanked away from you.
In my life, there have been times when I needed to do or tell people things, and I did. Now after the event happened, I was no longer needed to do anything. Okay fine so I continue doing my job anyway, big deal.
Once in Naploi Italia, I was in charge of 40 MPs and we nightly met at a tratoria for cuppachinos, this one day however I knew that I needed to change our routine. I did not know why, just that it did. The field commanders that worked immediately for me, balked at the change and argued the matter, but I insisted. I found a new tratoria for us to meet at, that night
everyone on shift met at the regular place, but we did not all go in, we left and they all began to follow me to the new place. As we left the parking lot, the building blew up. One of my guys lost 'girl friend' [really she wasn't, she was a Polish-slave who he liked, but he did not want to spend the pack of marlboros that she would have cost him]. Anyway everyone under my command walked away un-hurt. That night they knew that they were alive because I had known that we should no longer hang out at that tratoria. Later it did help in ministering to some of the kids who worked for me, and on the grand scale God did gain the glory.
Now I do not imagine that I am a prophet, but that does not stop My Heavenly Father from using me, as He wishes, when He wishes, to deliver messages to people.
Nothing is being 'yanked' away from me, when He does not wish to use me.
"This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord"."
I dont know how to respond to this, for example.
I only saw a select group of people act in this manner. They generally wore rings, and they self-indentified with each other. They were a finite group. They fit your description nicely.
I could name this group but when I do it upsets others here on GS. I think that you know who I mean. From my exposure to the Way Ministry, this one group of people were a huge burden on the beleivers, and they singularly chased away more beleivers and did more harm then anything elses that I am aware of [including any poor doctrine].
I will allow you to imagine who this 'group' is.
I dont see how you can blame PFAL for this group of people who destroyed so many beleivers.
Galen, tough call sometimes. I think the thing was really taken to extremes. Sure, you and I at times could do some real good things, speak things perhaps that a prophet MIGHT- but somehow, the idea that you can mix so many of hours of PFAL in a persons brain and equal the "office of a prophet' is just a little repugnant to me.
People spouted off some stuff that they should have known far better. Either people 'had it" or they didn't. In your case, perhaps you "had it". I don't disqualify at least the possibility.
But far and wide, what I observed- otherwise well meaning people- if they didn't "have it" were convinced that they did. They figured that with enough religous training, they somehow could do the work of a prophet- on command. That's what I observed. They instantly become Word of Knowledge experts- on everything- why you oughta do this, why you oughta do that. Why you should quit your job. Why you shoud do .. fill in the blan,. This was my direct observation.
God forbid that I would lay to your charge of being some kind of counterfiet.
And further- I meant no harm to you, Galen. From what I read of your posts, you have taken what good you got from the ministry and are seeing some results. Same here. I just don't buy all of it, anymore. You were unfortunate enough to witness me spitting out some real junk. Sorry..
But, it's your thread- what do you think? At least for me, just remembering that thing about "owing my life to the ministry" really got me going. If all of PFAL is God-breathed, then logically, this must be true also. I don't buy it- at least now. And that was part of the indoctrination of PFAL. It seems we got a lot of real junk along with the word of God- a lot of crap. And some people are unwilling to dare to call it what it was- crap. I don't see how I bought into that stuff for a minute.
You may have had the priviledge of missing the "even worse"- those who could scream the loudest and foulest were revered as those that could do the job, and take on the adversary- they magically had the spiritual inside on everything in your life because they underwent some kind of training or class.. I thankfully only witnessed that only a couple of times.
What I witnessed- people PRESUMED to be some kind of prophet, or apostle- may have not claimed it, but sure acted like it. And their "prophecies" proved to be as genuine as a three dollar bill. Funny, lots of them are still involved, busy running whole regions.
In a lot of ways, I think a lot of what I learned in PFAL was OK- just don't think it's worthy of being given Godhood.. some do. I think that's kind of nuts. some make it hard to separate the good and junk without hurting somebody's feelings- hope I didn't hurt you.
The good news is, it's not too late. We OLGs can come back to written PFAL and see what we missed, and what we forgot, and what we got wrong.
Why?? Coming back to written pfal, and perusing the pages will not even show me what I got *right*, much less what I missed, forgot, or got wrong
We can find where exactly each one of us failed PFAL and get it right this time.
Again -- pfal does not *expose our frailties* individually as humans -- it merely propounds what one man said doctrinally (albeit you say God gave the rev).
Once a few OLGs do this, non-OLGs will have a reason to give it a second try.
Most OLGs know that God's Word works, with or without pfal. It would be mis-leading to get someone to return to pfal, just for pfal's sake.
We OLGs saw it work once, for a limited time, so we are generally the only ones who might be willing to take the risk and invest the time.
I saw God's Word at work -- not pfal. I would be unwilling to return to, endorse, or promote a *class* over The Word of God. By your standards Mike -- pfal should be written in the stars, where the Heavans declare His glory.
I dont see how you can blame PFAL for this group of people who destroyed so many beleivers.
I don't blame PFAL for anything the Way Corps did, PFAL has it's own burdens, as does it's teacher.
Your problems with the Way Corpse as you always call them Galen, is one thing, and your opinion to reflect. You just come off whiney, to me. You admit you didn't know very many but the ones you did, didn't do much good you say. I knew 100's of people that went through the Way Corps program, and over a period of about 7 years travelled to every state in the U.S. and every major city at least once, many 2-3 times or more. I met a lot of good people in the Way Corps program. Smart, intelligent, caring, loving, hard working people who were sorting out and trying to realize their desire to live an honest life serving God.
Most of the ones I knew were good people, who did good work, to help others and to fulfill what they considered their "careers", to serve God's people and follow their hearts towards God as best they could. You followed your career goals. That was the Navy was it? Good for you.
It's irks me to constantly read people who pursued their own personal careers for whatever reasons pigeon hole everyone who went in to the Way Corps as jerks, ignoring that many of us were trying to reach goals of our own to help people, with the biblical message of Christ.
So that's why you will definitely hear from people like myself - to give a balance based on other facts. You take every opportunity to side slam "Way Corpse". Expect responses that reflect the facts of other people's lives and experiences.
Most of the Way Corps I knew and worked with were honorable people who gave a lot towards helping others. That has more to do with them than the program - they were people who were going to help others in their lives no matter what or where they ended up.
I agree, it is a ‘walk’. Commonly there simply are not hard fast yes/no answers.
“I think the thing was really taken to extremes.”
Many issues that we deal with here on GS [as well as in life in general] were often taken to extremes that made no sense.
If an idiot takes something and carries it to absurd extremes do we still blame the original item, or hold it blameless and find the fault with the person who took it to such an absurd extreme?
“Sure, you and I at times could do some real good things, speak things perhaps that a prophet MIGHT- but somehow, the idea that you can mix so many of hours of PFAL in a persons brain and equal the "office of a prophet' is just a little repugnant to me.”
Okay. I see.
I was not thinking of “The office of a prophet” as being such a big deal. A prophet is just a person that is needed by Our Heavenly Father to go and tell someone something.
Moses was a great Prophet of God for many years. But we see others like Balaak who were goofs. Jonah was a prophet, but he did not want to go and tell the people of Ninevah God’s message, that was why he ran for Spain, on the other hand, what did Jonah do the rest of his life? We don’t know, it looks like he was only called upon to do this one thing.
During the time of Moses, God needed someone for a long-time. But during other times God only needed someone to stand and speak a single message and then shut-up again. So the ‘Office of a Prophet’ is not necessarily a life calling.
“They figured that with enough religous training, they somehow could do the work of a prophet- on command. That's what I observed.”
I certainly don’t dis-agree that such happened. Though I would chaff at the idea of anyone ‘commanding’ God on who and when the work of a Prophet is needed.
“They instantly become Word of Knowledge experts- on everything- why you oughta do this, why you oughta do that. Why you should quit your job. Why you shoud do .. fill in the blan,. This was my direct observation.”
Okay, yes that is a good observation.
I commonly found that many corpse acted in this manner. They acted as complete experts on everything. Mostly on areas that they knew nothing. Young single people who acted like marriage counselors, or who to raise children.
On the other hand, we have known a few who did not, but admittedly the ‘cool’ people were corpse who were realistically on their way out. They were no longer in favour and were on some form of probation.
“God forbid that I would lay to your charge of being some kind of counterfiet.”
Your neat too.
“And further- I meant no harm to you, Galen. From what I read of your posts, you have taken what good you got from the ministry and are seeing some results. Same here. I just don't buy all of it, anymore. You were unfortunate enough to witness me spitting out some real junk. Sorry..”
Don’t worry about it.
See, we mostly agree. I don’t mean to imply that we should accept everything that was taught, either.
“But, it's your thread- what do you think? At least for me, just remembering that thing about "owing my life to the ministry" really got me going.”
I just started the thread, I don’t own it. You would have to speak with Paw about it’s ownership.
I don’t owe my life to a ministry, I doubt whether you would either.
Yes I recall hearing that phrase but it was garbage then and now. J
“If all of PFAL is God-breathed, then ….”
I only said that I like PFAL, and we run it within our fellowships. Please don’t confuse me with ours who might say it is G-d breathed. J
“What I witnessed- people PRESUMED to be some kind of prophet, or apostle- may have not claimed it, but sure acted like it. And their "prophecies" proved to be as genuine as a three dollar bill. Funny, lots of them are still involved, busy running whole regions.”
Wow how self-important.
Does not surprise me though.
“In a lot of ways, I think a lot of what I learned in PFAL was OK- just don't think it's worhty of being given Godhood..”
LOL
“hope I didn't hurt you.”
Not at all, we cool.
I do find interesting, that everytime I speak of my dealings with Corpse, I manage to insult many Ex-Corpse. Though at the same time, others [like you in this case] totally agree with seeing everything that I saw [corpse being totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes].
So obviously I was NOT the only one who saw this stuff.
Yes and now that you, on your thread, insist on using 'corpse' and such a weak excuse as not being the only one, and on top of that 'hmmm' you've pretty much made yourself clear.
"Totally out of control" hardly describes the people I'm thinking of.
No one said you were the ONLY one. You're just the only one here that seems to insist on acting consistent with the same tight assed, prissy corpse attitude you criticize.
If you can't see the insult, you may be too calloused to discuss it with, too willing to hold to your view and no willingness to expand your own knowledge past what you choose to hold to. Which is weird, because it's so inconsistent with the revolution of new information that PFAL promised to so many people. It reminds me of how so many PFAL grads chose to make it their new religion, every bit as calloused and hard as the religions they claimed to be set free from.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
WordWolf
Mike, 3/10/05, 3:52pm, Eastern.
Mike, 6/15/03, 5:49pm, Eastern.
Mike, 6/3/02, 12:18am, Eastern.
Mike, 1/9/04, 1:19am Eastern.
Mke, 2/22/05, 4:27pm, edited 2/25/05 2:19pm. (Eastern)
Mike, 2/22/05, 5:43pm.
Mike, 4/19/03, 1:44pm, Eastern.
I think Mike keeps forgetting what he HAS said about pfal and about the Bible.
A number of us know he was saying this years ago.
When I tried to get Mike to make a clear, unambigious statement of his
position, I offered the following summary of his posts...
I offered that 6/20/03, 7:40am (Eastern)
Mike's response?
So,
Mike does not want to SAY pfal replaced any Bible.
Mike wants to put forth this doctrine without SAYING it.
Mike also seems to forget he's pretty much said it anyway, several times,
so the next time he says it is the first time and it deserves special
attention as a special news bulletin.
The posts eat their own tails; the contents form a circle and repeat.
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Mike
.
ChattyKathy,
You wrote: "Let's take it a step at a time okay."
Ok.
:)-->
My available time for steps is a little scarce these days, so that would nicely fit in with my schedule.
I'm happy to have communicated a little with you in this first step.
.
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Mike
WordWolf,
It would be more gentlemanly of you if you'd supply links to all those quotes of me that you stripped of their context and posted above.
The idea of replacement I have presented here is very limited, and the surrounding context expresses that limitation. Please don't isolate small pieces of what I write without making the context abundantly easy for the reader to find.
Supplying those links is sometimes hard work, because if the threads are moved their link changes. HOWEVER, if you're going to quote me like that I should not have to be the one to find the links and re-post the context. You should make it easy for readers to check the context in which my quotes occur.
And worse, some of the threads from which you quoted me may have been pruned in recent weeks, or they may be pruned at some future time. This would make it impossible for a reader to check if you had or had not wrenched my quote from a crucial context and distorted it.
***
Until then this context issue can be settled, let me put my position on replacement in the simplest terms that I can at this point.
In the study schedules of OLGs only, I advocate that for their usual daily study hours, they replace their KJV (or NIV or whatever) with the written PFAL texts.
For example, suppose OLG extraordinaire Johnny Jumpup spends one hour per day in his KJV and five or ten minutes in PFAL in one or two sittings every six weeks. I'd then advocate this OLG Johnny that he replace his KJV in the one hour per day habit with PFAL, and spend five or ten minutes in one or two sittings every six weeks with the KJV.
Extending that example, I'd advocate that those OLGs who spend no regular time in any Bible to come back to PFAL and replace some weekly TV shows with it.
I hope this TV show replacement urging of mine is less controversial than my above urging for disciplined Bible readers to replace their KJVs.
I'd be interested to know just how many Bible reading hours per day most of the posters on this thread clock up.
***
I have another example of my position. I think I stated this in my first weeks of posting.
I advocate for OLGs that they try to get together weekly with other OLGs, if possible, just like the "Grad Night" format fellowships that was relatively common in the early 70's.
For these special fellowships I'd advocate replacing KJV Bible study with collateral study. The teacher would teach from a collateral, and all the people would follow along in their own copies of the same collateral. Mastering PFAL together for OLGs is a big thing. People should try it some time. Kids could be included, but I'd somewhat hold off on new people.
Again: The idea of replacement I have presented here is very limited, and the surrounding context expresses that limitation. Please don't isolate small pieces of what I write without making the context abundantly easy for the reader to find.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf responds in boldface as normal...]
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ChattyKathy
This will not be boring I suspect.
:)-->
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CM
I'd like to get back to what HCW said about pfal working, and WTH's response for a second here.
Does pfal work? Depends on the results that you are looking for I suppose.
Looking at the results of pfal and even looking at the results of Mike's version of pfal leaves one still without answers to many questions.
Signs, miracles and wonders were not on the green card as a benefit of the class but it was taught within it and supposedly we were instructed on how to bring these to pass, and how they work. Manifestations were also taught and explained about how they work too. Along with fruit of the spirit and many things.
And for that and the rest of the promises of pfal-going by pfal and the kjv, it will not work. Never has and never will. It gave us very little real instruction on spiritual matters in sessions 1-8. And 9-12 are just plain wrong imo.
So, personally, I had to step back away from pfal and the many books and classes that go with it, and get it out of my thinking and life. Which took some doing and a lot of help from others. And go by what I believe are the simple things that are in the bible and proceed from there. Sort of rebooted my brain so to speak. And then I was free to test other viewpoints and ways of thinking. Yes, free to test, to take a little step into different directions and then free to back out as I please, or proceed further, still maintaining the option to back out.
And then from there, by God's grace, I have seen some of His promises come to pass in my life. And I'm quite confident that He will come through with the rest of His promises as I grow in understanding of what the promises really are.
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Ham
Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous.
What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance?
This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord".
No ministries of miracles and healing where you live? If PFAL is right, you can rise up and do it. Lets see it happen. Let's see YOU do it.
Need to walk on water? Let's see YOU do it first.
I'm not trying to be "mean"- I really care. At first I thought this stuff was laughable- now I realize that you REALLY believe it.
Practically, doctrinally, and logically, PFAL has failed. Some of us were "lucky" enough to sort some good out of it.
In this matter I will not share details, but some of the errors have cost me, big time.
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Ham
Holy cow- makes me think God doesn't have enough ministries to pass around, so he has to put them out on loan.. don't return them on time- the overdue fines are horrific..
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Ham
Well, here is at least one more thought..
Lack of results? Loy came up with a nice little explanation- that the spirit of God did not come ENERGIZED, like in the old testament. That seems to fix some of the difficulties..
Oh well, more retemorizing, more S.I.T.ing eighteen hours a day, more "researching" of ministry materials, more stupid dumb blind obedience, more giving- now over fifteen percent, etc. etc. etc. More, more more.
I think most folks found that even that did not work, either.
Good grief- either its energized, or its not.
Either you've got the power, or you don't. You telling me that "the fullness of the spirit" needs YOUR help "getting it started"? Maybe you just need to get out and push a little harder.
Like it or not, some of the folk in history that had the MOST to contribute to the Christian Church NEVER spoke in tongues, not once.
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Mike
Mr Hammeroni,
Where and when OLG people accurately did do what PFAL taught, we OLG people got good to great results. But this was not always done accurately, and as time went on (by the mid 1980's) it got done LESS and LESS accurately. In the 70's we still had our collateral exposure fresh in mind, and what did work well for us was due to us literally believing what we were taught and acting on it.
IN CONTRAST, we OLG people did everything BUT what Dr's final instructions directed us to do by the mid 80's.
Starting in 1985, when Dr issued his final instructions, we OLG people did everything BUT seriously come back to written PFAL to master it in order to "energize the spirit" or whatever phrases may more accurately describe what we needed at that time.
The bad news is, therefore we OLG people failed PFAL, and PFAL did not fail us.
***
Anyone who tried to apply PFAL after Dr's death had the deck stacked against them, and I constantly must remind myself that they share none of this blame OLGs have for failing PFAL.
I have no doubt that PFAL did not work for non-OLGs after 1985. After 1985, the accurate forms of PFAL in our minds was being daily smothered with proliferating TVTs. Charismatic leaders were grinding out their own doctrines within the ministry before the meltdown in '86-89 and these many TVTs were becoming like separate denominations, hundreds of them, within the ministry. By 1990 most of them became official separate denominations, all diverging farther and farther from the accurate doctrine of PFAL.
When compared to the results of the 70's, these ersatz forms of PFAL have failed to produce too. I'd even include official '67 film/video classes run by TWI after 1985, as well as bootleg '67 film/video classes run by a few splinters after 1985.
***
The good news is, it's not too late. We OLGs can come back to written PFAL and see what we missed, and what we forgot, and what we got wrong. We can find where exactly each one of us failed PFAL and get it right this time. Once a few OLGs do this, non-OLGs will have a reason to give it a second try. We OLGs saw it work once, for a limited time, so we are generally the only ones who might be willing to take the risk and invest the time.
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Ham
That's all well and good, but- I feel a couple challenges are left unanswered.
I still believe:
1. I do not owe my very life to ANY ministry that "taught me the word". I consider the implication dishonorable, self-serving and downright DEVILISH. period. They do not "own" me, in any way, shape or form. My Bible says that the earth is THE LORD'S, and the people therein. Yet this was a key theme in the intermediate class- even printed in the materials. Remember the eighties? Loy circulating his little "loyalty oath"? Same dadburned thing. We owe those bunch of numbnuts NOTHING. Except to love perhaps- and believe me, we've paid- again and again. Now they accept no payment. You're too old. Don't need you anymore- they have a younger crowd they're trying to whip into shape to kiss their rears in ways you'd never understand. But it's the same scam, "well, we've given you EVERYTHING (ha!). Now you owe us, big time". Same devilish crap- and it did not start with them, it started in PFAL.
2. Nobody, just nobody can by their own believing or otherwise, turn themselves into a prophet. The whole idea that you can "believe" to perform the function of a prophet without God Almighty's stamp of approval is futile, at the best. Same for any other ministry- includes gifts of healings, helps, governments, etc. Either you have it, or you don't. If you think you can believe to get it, go ahead and try. I know better.
3. Show me the results. Really. Now, or then. If it is what it claims to be, you should get the results that it claims. The results I saw in the seventies- the good old days- were few and far between. Not too mention more often fabricated than not. Among the greatly touted "results" I heard in the seventies: person "miraculously" had money in their checking account. They removed said money to pay for class. Low and behold, the checks out on the account came in the next few days- nothing more abundant than having a half a dozen angry merchants at your door, must have just been the debil, I guess..
Sure, some good things happened, but not to the level that it glorified the greatness of PFAL. Heck, I spoke in tongues and saw a miracle or two LONG before I took any class.
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Ham
That's why they'd never have me back, now. One stupid statement like "if you are really mature, you should know that you owe us your life" and I'd be on them like there's no tomorrow. Even in a church or other place. I wouldn't care if it was "out of order". No friggin way.
Normally, I'm a nice guy, try to get along with people- but try this stuff- especially on my kids, and they're gonna see a side of me they wished they never had.
I'm still spitting out the crap I swallowed all those years.. ptooie.
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Ham
And it doesn't taste sweet, either. Ptooie.
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ChattyKathy
I don't know how I'd state it right now but it's like it provided but it wasn't the "all in al". Yet I'm thankful I received some good from it.
But in the same as you I've paid big time. While chapter and verse was tweaked just enough to not turn your ear, yet contained error that would lead you astray. This stuff is subtle and it had to start somewhere.
It would have made no difference if it were twi, Southern Baptist or whatever....errors are human. But to deliberately lead people in an error is what I still believe some of the teachings from twi offered.
Um, well I guess you were the as you said "lucky" one to hear my spiel.
:)-->
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CM
pfal is a Black Widow.
It spins it's web catching people, mates, then it eats them alive. This is not godly.
In contrast to becoming fishers of men we were trained to deceive people into taking the class where the "teacher" could then work his "magic".
LCM never really understood how pfal worked. That's why his class couldn't do what pfal did.
You will always have the option of backing out with God. No need for a web of deceit and lies.
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Ham
Hello Kathy.. yep- I'm thankful for what good I got out of it too.
Still, it seems we paid, and kept paying- still paying- I think I know how a cat feels, still coughing up furballs once in a while, heh heh. Just when I think it's all over, here comes another one.. blecch.
I think Mike is doing us- or me- more of a service than he realizes. Nowhere else have I been able to cough up this crap and really get a handle on it. Dislike his opinion as much as some do, it still has a beneficial effect. Really convinces me that I'd never go back to some of that crap- never- no matter what the promises, no matter what the guarantees.
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Galen
Hammeroni:
"Another thought about the "being able to believe to rise up to do the function of a Prophet"- It's ludicrous."
I have read this said now a few times.
A prophet simply speaks for G-d.
I don't see the big problem with the idea that, someday as I am doing what I do, hearing/feeling the little nudge "look over there, see that guy, he needs to be blessed", and when I get there "tell him it's okay things like this happen in life, tomorrow is a new day with new opportunitys", so I tell him exactly what I hear to tell him. When I am done, I walk away.
My job is done. Our Heavenly Father wanted something said to this guy, and I said it.
During that moment I acted as a prophet. Am I a prophet? Not really, not that I know of. Of course the person does not really know do they. None of this means that I walk full-time with the ministry of a prophet. I am simply a son, doning what my Father needs to be done.
I dont see the big deal in saying that at sometime, the body of Christ may need you to perform a given function.
"What's God gonna do? Make you a "prophet of the day"? Makes no sense to me. "Here you go kid, you mastered da class right, I'll let you be a prophet for just a little while, then I'll yank it back when the "real deal" comes along". What happened to the gifts and calling of God being without repentance?"
I dont see the big deal. If your not a prophet than great, your not. So what. I dont see how that stops Our Heavenly Father from calling on you to go do something every now and again.
I dont see this as being 'given' something and then later it being yanked away from you.
In my life, there have been times when I needed to do or tell people things, and I did. Now after the event happened, I was no longer needed to do anything. Okay fine so I continue doing my job anyway, big deal.
Once in Naploi Italia, I was in charge of 40 MPs and we nightly met at a tratoria for cuppachinos, this one day however I knew that I needed to change our routine. I did not know why, just that it did. The field commanders that worked immediately for me, balked at the change and argued the matter, but I insisted. I found a new tratoria for us to meet at, that night
everyone on shift met at the regular place, but we did not all go in, we left and they all began to follow me to the new place. As we left the parking lot, the building blew up. One of my guys lost 'girl friend' [really she wasn't, she was a Polish-slave who he liked, but he did not want to spend the pack of marlboros that she would have cost him]. Anyway everyone under my command walked away un-hurt. That night they knew that they were alive because I had known that we should no longer hang out at that tratoria. Later it did help in ministering to some of the kids who worked for me, and on the grand scale God did gain the glory.
Now I do not imagine that I am a prophet, but that does not stop My Heavenly Father from using me, as He wishes, when He wishes, to deliver messages to people.
Nothing is being 'yanked' away from me, when He does not wish to use me.
"This teaching simply allowed whoever wished to scream loud enough, or wanted to be confrontational enough, no matter how corrupt or counterfiet the individual was, to somehow be allowed the priviledge of doing "da work of the Lord"."
I dont know how to respond to this, for example.
I only saw a select group of people act in this manner. They generally wore rings, and they self-indentified with each other. They were a finite group. They fit your description nicely.
I could name this group but when I do it upsets others here on GS. I think that you know who I mean. From my exposure to the Way Ministry, this one group of people were a huge burden on the beleivers, and they singularly chased away more beleivers and did more harm then anything elses that I am aware of [including any poor doctrine].
I will allow you to imagine who this 'group' is.
I dont see how you can blame PFAL for this group of people who destroyed so many beleivers.
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Ham
Galen, tough call sometimes. I think the thing was really taken to extremes. Sure, you and I at times could do some real good things, speak things perhaps that a prophet MIGHT- but somehow, the idea that you can mix so many of hours of PFAL in a persons brain and equal the "office of a prophet' is just a little repugnant to me.
People spouted off some stuff that they should have known far better. Either people 'had it" or they didn't. In your case, perhaps you "had it". I don't disqualify at least the possibility.
But far and wide, what I observed- otherwise well meaning people- if they didn't "have it" were convinced that they did. They figured that with enough religous training, they somehow could do the work of a prophet- on command. That's what I observed. They instantly become Word of Knowledge experts- on everything- why you oughta do this, why you oughta do that. Why you should quit your job. Why you shoud do .. fill in the blan,. This was my direct observation.
God forbid that I would lay to your charge of being some kind of counterfiet.
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Ham
And further- I meant no harm to you, Galen. From what I read of your posts, you have taken what good you got from the ministry and are seeing some results. Same here. I just don't buy all of it, anymore. You were unfortunate enough to witness me spitting out some real junk. Sorry..
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Ham
But, it's your thread- what do you think? At least for me, just remembering that thing about "owing my life to the ministry" really got me going. If all of PFAL is God-breathed, then logically, this must be true also. I don't buy it- at least now. And that was part of the indoctrination of PFAL. It seems we got a lot of real junk along with the word of God- a lot of crap. And some people are unwilling to dare to call it what it was- crap. I don't see how I bought into that stuff for a minute.
You may have had the priviledge of missing the "even worse"- those who could scream the loudest and foulest were revered as those that could do the job, and take on the adversary- they magically had the spiritual inside on everything in your life because they underwent some kind of training or class.. I thankfully only witnessed that only a couple of times.
What I witnessed- people PRESUMED to be some kind of prophet, or apostle- may have not claimed it, but sure acted like it. And their "prophecies" proved to be as genuine as a three dollar bill. Funny, lots of them are still involved, busy running whole regions.
In a lot of ways, I think a lot of what I learned in PFAL was OK- just don't think it's worthy of being given Godhood.. some do. I think that's kind of nuts. some make it hard to separate the good and junk without hurting somebody's feelings- hope I didn't hurt you.
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dmiller
A pargraph by Mike ---
My comments in bold:
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socks
I don't blame PFAL for anything the Way Corps did, PFAL has it's own burdens, as does it's teacher.
Your problems with the Way Corpse as you always call them Galen, is one thing, and your opinion to reflect. You just come off whiney, to me. You admit you didn't know very many but the ones you did, didn't do much good you say. I knew 100's of people that went through the Way Corps program, and over a period of about 7 years travelled to every state in the U.S. and every major city at least once, many 2-3 times or more. I met a lot of good people in the Way Corps program. Smart, intelligent, caring, loving, hard working people who were sorting out and trying to realize their desire to live an honest life serving God.
Most of the ones I knew were good people, who did good work, to help others and to fulfill what they considered their "careers", to serve God's people and follow their hearts towards God as best they could. You followed your career goals. That was the Navy was it? Good for you.
It's irks me to constantly read people who pursued their own personal careers for whatever reasons pigeon hole everyone who went in to the Way Corps as jerks, ignoring that many of us were trying to reach goals of our own to help people, with the biblical message of Christ.
So that's why you will definitely hear from people like myself - to give a balance based on other facts. You take every opportunity to side slam "Way Corpse". Expect responses that reflect the facts of other people's lives and experiences.
Most of the Way Corps I knew and worked with were honorable people who gave a lot towards helping others. That has more to do with them than the program - they were people who were going to help others in their lives no matter what or where they ended up.
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Galen
Hamm-
“Galen, tough call sometimes.”
I agree, it is a ‘walk’. Commonly there simply are not hard fast yes/no answers.
“I think the thing was really taken to extremes.”
Many issues that we deal with here on GS [as well as in life in general] were often taken to extremes that made no sense.
If an idiot takes something and carries it to absurd extremes do we still blame the original item, or hold it blameless and find the fault with the person who took it to such an absurd extreme?
“Sure, you and I at times could do some real good things, speak things perhaps that a prophet MIGHT- but somehow, the idea that you can mix so many of hours of PFAL in a persons brain and equal the "office of a prophet' is just a little repugnant to me.”
Okay. I see.
I was not thinking of “The office of a prophet” as being such a big deal. A prophet is just a person that is needed by Our Heavenly Father to go and tell someone something.
Moses was a great Prophet of God for many years. But we see others like Balaak who were goofs. Jonah was a prophet, but he did not want to go and tell the people of Ninevah God’s message, that was why he ran for Spain, on the other hand, what did Jonah do the rest of his life? We don’t know, it looks like he was only called upon to do this one thing.
During the time of Moses, God needed someone for a long-time. But during other times God only needed someone to stand and speak a single message and then shut-up again. So the ‘Office of a Prophet’ is not necessarily a life calling.
“They figured that with enough religous training, they somehow could do the work of a prophet- on command. That's what I observed.”
I certainly don’t dis-agree that such happened. Though I would chaff at the idea of anyone ‘commanding’ God on who and when the work of a Prophet is needed.
“They instantly become Word of Knowledge experts- on everything- why you oughta do this, why you oughta do that. Why you should quit your job. Why you shoud do .. fill in the blan,. This was my direct observation.”
Okay, yes that is a good observation.
I commonly found that many corpse acted in this manner. They acted as complete experts on everything. Mostly on areas that they knew nothing. Young single people who acted like marriage counselors, or who to raise children.
On the other hand, we have known a few who did not, but admittedly the ‘cool’ people were corpse who were realistically on their way out. They were no longer in favour and were on some form of probation.
“God forbid that I would lay to your charge of being some kind of counterfiet.”
Your neat too.
“And further- I meant no harm to you, Galen. From what I read of your posts, you have taken what good you got from the ministry and are seeing some results. Same here. I just don't buy all of it, anymore. You were unfortunate enough to witness me spitting out some real junk. Sorry..”
Don’t worry about it.
See, we mostly agree. I don’t mean to imply that we should accept everything that was taught, either.
“But, it's your thread- what do you think? At least for me, just remembering that thing about "owing my life to the ministry" really got me going.”
I just started the thread, I don’t own it. You would have to speak with Paw about it’s ownership.
I don’t owe my life to a ministry, I doubt whether you would either.
Yes I recall hearing that phrase but it was garbage then and now. J
“If all of PFAL is God-breathed, then ….”
I only said that I like PFAL, and we run it within our fellowships. Please don’t confuse me with ours who might say it is G-d breathed. J
“What I witnessed- people PRESUMED to be some kind of prophet, or apostle- may have not claimed it, but sure acted like it. And their "prophecies" proved to be as genuine as a three dollar bill. Funny, lots of them are still involved, busy running whole regions.”
Wow how self-important.
Does not surprise me though.
“In a lot of ways, I think a lot of what I learned in PFAL was OK- just don't think it's worhty of being given Godhood..”
LOL
“hope I didn't hurt you.”
Not at all, we cool.
I do find interesting, that everytime I speak of my dealings with Corpse, I manage to insult many Ex-Corpse. Though at the same time, others [like you in this case] totally agree with seeing everything that I saw [corpse being totally out of control, egotistical a$$holes].
So obviously I was NOT the only one who saw this stuff.
hmm.
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socks
Yes and now that you, on your thread, insist on using 'corpse' and such a weak excuse as not being the only one, and on top of that 'hmmm' you've pretty much made yourself clear.
"Totally out of control" hardly describes the people I'm thinking of.
No one said you were the ONLY one. You're just the only one here that seems to insist on acting consistent with the same tight assed, prissy corpse attitude you criticize.
If you can't see the insult, you may be too calloused to discuss it with, too willing to hold to your view and no willingness to expand your own knowledge past what you choose to hold to. Which is weird, because it's so inconsistent with the revolution of new information that PFAL promised to so many people. It reminds me of how so many PFAL grads chose to make it their new religion, every bit as calloused and hard as the religions they claimed to be set free from.
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