I think we're communicating better. Still, I think you came down hard on me, and gave a pass to many others who were much harsher, and who have no mitigating follow-up like I do.
***
I contend that PFAL is the only set of books that totally unfold the KJV. Others may help here and there, but only PFAL will lead us to the fullness.
Mike -- I bear you no ill will. Never have, never will -- regardless of what you believe. I did not try to *come down hard on you*, and am scratching my head right now, trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion. -->
I try to get along with ALL, and am more than willing to listen to the *opposition*, cause if you don't hear the story from their mouth -- you have no cause to complain about the beliefs talked about.
Now -- I don't agree with you about pfal, and you don't agree with me (and others) about the bible. If you think we are *communicating better*, perhaps it is because I am trying my best to be polite, and attentive to what is being said (by you). I am hoping you can transcend pfal, and see there are other ways than that to God.
But --- given all you have said in the past, I doubt that that will be a *happening* thing anytime soon.
The extreme closeness to VPW you describe of your lifestyle for those years is the very factor that disqualifies you to credibly discern the authority which God gave to him.
(snip)
But spiritually, you are unable to see that he was a chosen spokesman for God BECAUSE you were so close to him. I learned several years ago to discount all firsthand witnesses of his life when it comes to his speaking for God and teaching His Word like it has not been known since the first century. Sorry.
(snip)
If your total intention is to filibuster me with details and protests and insults, then I'll collect the details and find some other way to teach the untangling of them to those who are interested in a place where you can't interrupt. If you want to learn then I can teach you a lot; not all but a lot. If you are not meek and think you already know it, I've seen before plenty who fell into that category, often times they were Corps, and I learned to not allow them to upset me.
Your flesh impresses me as very smart and very energetic. Spiritually, you're nobody... yet.
I thought this was too extra-special a post to let people miss it.
A) This is such a fantastic comment that it just HAS to be seen.
'You're unreliable as an authority as to whether a man's writings were directly
from God because you were there when they were developed, written, edited and
distributed, and were one of the main people directly involved in the process!
Since you were there, your ability to speak as an eyewitness is invalidated
because you saw it all, and were a direct participant!
Instead,
only someone who was completely divorced from the processes-several states away-
can speak with authority on what happened where you were at but they weren't!
Their lack of ability to recount the events, since they were not present for them,
is the very reason they are qualified to speak as an eyewitness to what they
didn't see!'
You tell ME if you get something different from that passage.
B) Presenting counterarguments, evidence, and eyewitness testimony that refutes
Mike's doctrine is now known as "filibustering". All that pesky data just gets in
the way.
Apparently, also, Mike still objects to this being a DISCUSSION FORUM rather than
a doctrinal platform for Mikean pfal.
Also, (Bullinger)
Mike suggested he might actually fund his own website or board,
rather than leech Paw's bandwidth and threads at the GSC. We'll see.
It's with no sense of surprise that Mike is shown considering himself
a teacher, one of unique doctrines, as in "The Teacher". This has been expected
for years around here, and predicted in various forms.
C) Mike's still trying to compliment with one hand and insult with the other.
Since HCW already caught him doing it, you think he'd not try it on HCW anymore....
Wolf, great post. I saw pure Mikean disinformation in his post. So eyewitnesses are too close to the situation to be valid. An editors of the mog are to be discounted!
This is why gnosticism keeps rearing its ugly head in christendom. People can't handle the truth from the witnesses, instead gravitating to the sources so far removed from the event that guesswork is elevated to orthodoxy.
The need to have "secret" knowlegde overrides all else so one can be perceived as enlightened.
This is why gnosticism keeps rearing its ugly head in christendom. People can't handle the truth from the witnesses, instead gravitating to the sources so far removed from the event that guesswork is elevated to orthodoxy.
The need to have "secret" knowlegde overrides all else so one can be perceived as enlightened.
BINGO!! Def, my thoughts exactly...Secret Knowledge is NOT the key to the Kingdom, with Old Leader Grads "Leading" the way(?!?) Jesus IS the Way, not some amateurish, sophomoric re-writes of other men's inspired understanding concerning the Master. All the knowledge about Jesus in the whole world is no substitute for the real deal. Picking over nits will not increase your fellowship with him. Period. End of story.
Take your piffle worship to someplace where someone cares, Mike........
To me IMHO, this thread, this forum is the moderator's and then the community of posters'.
It is not 'mine'.
Yes I first posted and began this particular thread. But I don;t see it as any form of toe-stepping that everyone with an opinion wants to jump in and contribute their 2cents.
I am saddened that so many who were hurt by The Way, have decided to take out their hurt on this class. Through-out Ex-Wayfers there are many who would admit that having taken PFAL has helped them, if you could only subtract the abuse of power-hungry leadership [pronounced Corpse-grads] :-)
As you'all know I do like PFAL. I also like some other ministry's things and courses. I see 'good' in them [including PFAL].
Now again I will step-back, and You'all can pounce with all your might upon this post and everythign else within the thread.
Galen, we know you like the PFAL class, but think about this for a moment. The PFAL class may have some good material. However, many people here have already taken this class a number of times. If people who have taken this class many times already want to grow in knowledge they will need different material from other sources thus offering a fresh perspective. Actually, the PFAL series does not address a number of biblical topics. It's knowledge of the Old Testament is weak at best. Paul, the main writer of the New Testament on the other hand had a tremendous knowledge of the Old Testament which helped and influenced him in writing his church epistles. If a knowledge of the Old Testament was good enough for Paul why should not you and I learn from these books and gain more than what is offered in PFAL? Also important New Testament subjects such as "the Kingdom of God" and an understanding of Covenants are scarcely covered at all in PFAL. Jesus taught the subject of the kingdom of God perhaps more than any other. And basically, a knowledge of the Old and New Covenant is of paramount importance if we are going to be able to connect the dots. Just one look at your bible should tell us this importance. We have the Old Testament. Testament is another word for covenant. And we have the New Testament or new covenant. An understanding of these two subjects alone is very important for the Christian believers scriptural knowledge and understanding. Because these two subjects and others were left out of PFAL we have to go elsewhere for this knowledge. I recommend a fresh additional perspective. In so doing we will gain a more well rounded scriptural understanding.
Of course, the other option is to keep taking the PFAL class over and over again. Sort of the catechism, memorization, regurgitation approach. Yum!
Now again I will step-back, and You'all can pounce with all your might upon this post and everythign else within the thread.
:-)
My opinion of PFAL was that, at least as it was used during the late 70's through it's retirement from TWI usage in 1995, it was a highly effective tool of indoctrination.
This is not to say that PFAL was not very helpful, and that I didn't personally benefit from it, but that in its "final" form it was designed specifically to push certain emotional buttons, and to groom us into a narrow TWI mindset.
Wierwille does a masterful job of starting with the the students' assumed hunger for a knowledge of the scriptures, hammering on the integrity of those scriptures for close to three sessions, demonstrating keys to interpreting the scriptures, and then laying out his definitions and interpretations. Even the skeptics are often accepting his unique definitions of Greek words and interpretations of the scripture without question by the end of the second week of class.
Now people like yourself, who run PFAL independent of TWI or any other group, obviously are not trying to indoctrinate anybody. It's interesting to me that the class is still alive and well almost forty years after its filming.
I'm not one who thinks that just because it's in PFAL that it has to be wrong either. The "keys", while very simple, were an amazing new thing to most of us when we first signed the green card. PFAL got a lot of us "searching the scriptures", which was certainly a good thing. While some doctrines taught in PFAL do not stand up to scrutiny IMHO, many do.
My main objection to PFAL was that it was used to manipulate me. The manipulation was partly, as you say, by power-hungry Corps grads, but ultimately by the power-hungry founder, Slick Vic Wierwille.
However, I will say this for now. The extreme closeness to VPW you describe of your lifestyle for those years is the very factor that disqualifies you to credibly discern the authority which God gave to him.
Who ever said I was "extremely close" to VPW? I knew him, Yes. I worked on his staff, yes. I worked with him, yes. I never said I was "extremely close" with him.
"That is THE most rediculous thing I've ever heard." I quote Groucho Marxz. However you spell his name this "debate" as Mike would call it is more comedy than anything else.
If you disagree w/me Mike, be honest enough to just say "I disagree." Call me wrong, if you feel I'm wrong. You obviously claim to believe what many of us feel is absolute idolatrous insanity.
But THIS, this is just rediculous. There are rules, standards for debating. For as much as you declare you are writing for this new, and equally damaging and rediculous category of "believers;" this is the freakin INTERNET. It just don't get no more public than that. There are people looking at this thread. You actually owe it to YOURSELF, Mike to present your side of this issue in such a manner that would give credence to your position; no matter how rediculous I or anyone else may believe it to be.
There is just NO way that a reasonable person could read your posts and believe you Mike. YOU - ARE - BLIND. Your arguments do more harm to your position than anyone on the other side could ever do. You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise.
I don't care if you reject my position as you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is that PFAL is what it is what it is. Neither you or I can "declare" it into any more than what it actually is.
Your rediculous antics disqualify YOU as the "one" who can speak for PFAL.You're crazy, if you believe the crap you've written.
I contend that PFAL is the only set of books that totally unfold the KJV. Others may help here and there, but only PFAL will lead us to the fullness.
Mike that's just a falsehood. You have done nothing but claim that PFAL replaces the Bible for a long, long time... puhleeze! Man, who do you think you're dealing with... a bunch of amnesiacs?
Hey Mike, do you remember something along the lines of... "in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, let every word be established."?
originally posted by UncleHairy:
quote:
Mike...you are beyond reason. I feel compelled to break the bad news to you...you are insane.
originally posted by def59:
quote:
Your last long post proves to me you have shut off the crtical (ability to judge for one's self) part of your brain and have succumbed to a demonic thought that somehow the same scripture that Jesus said was not to be added to or subtracted from has been altered by God through vpw.
originally posted by HCW:
quote:
There is just NO way that a reasonable person could read your posts and believe you Mike. YOU - ARE - BLIND. Your arguments do more harm to your position than anyone on the other side could ever do. You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise.
I don't care if you reject my position as you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is that PFAL is what it is what it is. Neither you or I can "declare" it into any more than what it actually is.
Your rediculous antics disqualify YOU as the "one" who can speak for PFAL.You're crazy, if you believe the crap you've written.
Seems to me that based on the witnesses account alone there is evidence enough. Based on your own writings, claims and assertions, there is overwhelming body of evidence that speaks to your altered state of mind.
Mike, I, as do many here I'm sure, recomend you give this "pfal is God breathed" thing a break. You have, nor will ever, convince anyone of such utter nonsense.
In addition, for God's sake, get some counseling. You are mad. (4) witnesses. Now, I know what you're thinking... and that's the first and surest sign of your illness. ;)-->
"In the 1979 Way Magazine article "Masters of the Word" he never says we should master the Bible, the KJV, wide margin corrected Bibles, Greek texts, or anything like that. "
I laid out the article you mentioned.
Further... Logically speaking, based on a simple (if - then) mathematical principle,
IF you use:
quote:
I will ask you (and everyone else) this one thing, though.
Did you ever hear Dr say the following?
"It's the Bible, it's the Bible, it's the Bible.... and nothing BUT the Bible!"
To both refute contrary positions and justify your position:
quote:
I do know that in his dying last words to us he told us to MASTER the written collaterals that come with the class, and that he did so TWICE in that last lost teaching.
I am obeying those final instructions, because I firmly believe God gave him that final teaching by revelation, so it's really God Who told us to MASTER those collaterals and He did so TWICE.
Then you MUST use the same logic to refute opposite positions and JUSTIFY simlar positions; regardless as to whom the person is, or WHAT the position is.
YOU threw the anchor down, Mike, when you said, and then repeated. "Use the EXACT words...." again to refute positions opposite of yours and to justify your own position.
Your position being:
that VPW, as moved by the Holy Spirit told us to master PFAL - - NOT the Bible. Your anchor of logic being, "If God had meant "that," he would have said, "PRECISELY that."
YET... when the OPPOSITE position, uses YOUR logigic, from the anchor position YOU set. You pull your own anchor and STILL refure the opposite position.
The opposite position being:
Neither VPW, and absolutely NOT God, ever said that anyone should "master PFAL" as a replacement for the Bible, which VPW considered and GOD considers to "be" God's Word.
Your anchor of logic being, "If God had meant "that," he would have said, "PRECISELY that."
The weight and power of logic, in a debate, is that opposite positions are compelled by the weight and power to draw the conclusion that the LOGIC suggests, not the will of the person propounding the position.
Therefore, the mathematical principle is evident and speaks clearly here.
Mike: IF you say that because Vp never said, "It's the Bible, it's the Bible, it's the Bible.... and nothing BUT the Bible!" to justify YOUR position...
you MUST accept that because VP never said (the EXACT words) "Its the PFAL, its the PFAL, its the PFAL.... and nothing BUT the PFAL!" to justify the OPPOSITE position...
and therfore rufute YOUR own position.
It is insanity to:
1. vehemently argue against your own position
2. apparently FORGET your own logic used in establishing your own position.
3. expect different results from doing the same thing over & over & over & over again.
It is immoral to:
1. Change your position in the middle of a debate while you say your position is constant.
2. Reject ALL logic, every other position, then insult people who don't share your position, DECLARE them as nobody....
3. then lie about all of the above.
My statement "You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise." is not an attack, no matter how obscure the word you use to define it - - it is an OBSERVATION.
Same as this one: As I look out my window, I see it is a sunny morning as I'm typing this.
When I said you were BLIND that was actually the NICEST, most KIND, most GENTLE and MERCIFUL; "AGAPE" lovingly thing I could possibly say to you at this juncture. If you are NOT blind the things I would be compelled to say, by logic and Godly principle are much much worse.
I have no intention of stopping what I do. (I may stop doing it HERE someday.) Trying to do it better is high on my priority list, though.
Speaking of consistency, is there a consistent, unalterable physical standard (that's already written) you answer to and derive guidance from? Or do you wing it with a semi-standard set of writings over which YOU are the final judge on what is believed and what is "scratched out" and what is wide-margin modified?
I'm NOT asking you if you abstractly look to the original manuscripts of the Bible (in their original languages and original understandings) as your only rule of faith and practice.
I am asking you if you have found (existing in the physical realm) a set of authoritative writings that you feel you must measure up to as your ultimate authority.
If you don't have such a set of writings as your only rule for faith and practice, don't feel embarrassed to say so. Hardly anyone here does. Most people make a set of judgment calls as to what portions of available versions of scripture in translation/version form they like and that they will live their life according to.... until they find some reason or some theologian's reason to alter that portion.
This is an easy question to answer. It can come in forms like "Yes I have such a standard, and this is what it is, and you can get a copy of it here: (...fill in the blank...)."
Or another simple answer can come in a form like: "No, but I'm working on one, and have many pieces of it in place already that are unalterable... almost... as far as I know now"
The second type of answer, the "No" answer, comes in many more varieties compared to the "Yes" answer. I just offered one common one.
If you feel like being very brief, I'd accept a simple yes or no answer, and then you can resume your tirade against me and my sanity. I'll wait until you seem to be finished before I attempt to collect my notes for answering points. If I have time I can answer them all, I think. There many be a few I don't know the answers to, or some that I don't know quite how to get the answer in print, but I'll try.
But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do? What would be your suggestion that I use to fill such a gap in my life? Search the Yellow Pages for a cheap psychologist? No thank you.
Speaking of consistency, is there a consistent, unalterable physical standard (that's already written) you answer to and derive guidance from? Or do you wing it with a semi-standard set of writings over which YOU are the final judge on what is believed and what is "scratched out" and what is wide-margin modified?
I'm NOT asking you if you abstractly look to the original manuscripts of the Bible (in their original languages and original understandings) as your only rule of faith and practice.
I am asking you if you have found (existing in the physical realm) a set of authoritative writings that you feel you must measure up to as your ultimate authority.
[HCW, this is the famous "TABLE OF CHALLENGE" Mike's been waving about for years. As you saw the other day, Mike's fond of phrasing questions where PROPER answers are not "yes or no" and claiming that people's refusal to simplify them are indications of some nebulous fear on their part. Mike's intention is to say that the doctrine of "pfal books are holy texts from God" is superior to all other doctrines out there. Since it's simpler than most, it's correct. Sort of like the guy who claimed any doctrine that didn't fit on a bumper sticker was "secular humanism". Anyway, that's what he's on about. ]
If you don't have such a set of writings as your only rule for faith and practice, don't feel embarrassed to say so. Hardly anyone here does.
[Hardly anyone here ever answered his question, since it was obviously a trick question. As a result, Mike translated that as "everyone's answer is no". Mike's supposed ability to read our minds, know our complete history, and so on are no strangers to you now. Me, I offered to address his question, even though I called it a trick question, but only if he stopped hiding cravenly from the list of REAL ERRORS that have been discussed in pfal, and outlined-since he seems unable to see it-why it is critically important to address them if he doesn't want everyone to think he's just an idiot. I told him he could pick the ones he felt most comfortable answering, and-since he claimed to be the most progressed of all of us on this subject, spending something over 2 decades on this, he should already have a few of them already done. I did this more than once, and over 1 2-year period. I left this an OPEN challenge-meaning that if he did it TODAY, I'd answer his question. His response was to refuse to make an even exchange of it, then pretend I had no answer. ]
Most people make a set of judgment calls as to what portions of available versions of scripture in translation/version form they like and that they will live their life according to.... until they find some reason or some theologian's reason to alter that portion.
[Mike's crude caricature of the beliefs of others-you know, beliefs that match the doctrine and writings in the pfal books. This is why someone once said here: "YOU HYPOCRITE! WIERWILLE'S FINGERS WOULD BLEED FROM SLAPPING YOUR FACE!!!" Something like that. ]
This is an easy question to answer. It can come in forms like "Yes I have such a standard, and this is what it is, and you can get a copy of it here: (...fill in the blank...)."
[Another possible answer is "Yes, I have a jack, but I'm not going to help you." ]
But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do? What would be your suggestion that I use to fill such a gap in my life? Search the Yellow Pages for a cheap psychologist? No thank you.
[Having an objective party help him review his life so far and what he'll see there is NOT a goal for Mike. He might discover he needs to reinvent himself now. That's not something he wishes to face. Of course, many others have faced the same issues, and HAVE reinvented their lives. Of course, Mike's no more willing to face the prospect as are some of the Region Coordinators. Both Mike and them will just deal with things when they have no other choice. BTW, there are FREE, totally FREE, counseling services all over the country. So, price is an EXCUSE, and the real reason is something other than price.]
But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do? What would be your suggestion that I use to fill such a gap in my life? Search the Yellow Pages for a cheap psychologist? No thank you.
You'll read a couple of self-help books and give yourself a pep talk each morning, and that will be enough. And if it isn't enough, you'll spend the money and go to a counselor and you'll be grateful you did. You'll volunteer for Big Brothers, and go to the library to teach kids how to read. You'll serve lunch at the Soup Kitchen, and donate blood. You'll take up an instrument and join a rock band, an orchestra, a string ensemble. You'll write (but never finish) your first novel. You'll fall in love and raise kids and fall out of love and the kids will be grown and maybe you'll fall back in love. Or maybe not. You'll meet people. You'll make and lose friends, and the people you care about will get sick and die.
You'll play poker. You'll go on hikes and build a bird house and plant an herb garden and catch butterflies. You'll take up photography and sky diving and Renaisance literature and white water rafting and meet up with the guys in the morning before work for a quick game of basketball at the middle school gym. You'll sign up for a class at the Community College. You'll post at GreaseSpot. Your life won't be perfect because no life is perfect. You'll deal with it. You'll know joy and anger and forgiveness and longing, and you won't berate yourself for feeling all those things. And everything you've done up to this point will be part of your life experience, and you'll find the good in it all. Or not. You'll find God in all sorts of places you never thought to look, and occasionally you'll even find the meaning of life. You'll be just fine.
I contend that PFAL is the only set of books that totally unfold the KJV. Others may help here and there, but only PFAL will lead us to the fullness.
Mike that's just a falsehood. You have done nothing but claim that PFAL replaces the Bible for a long, long time... puhleeze! Man, who do you think you're dealing with... a bunch of amnesiacs?
Well, HE'S forgotten, so why should we prove to remember?
HCW,
Mike's adamantly refused to state his position in a direct fashion,
relying on cryptic comments and implications, and surprise when none of us are
impressed with his imagery and lack of substance shown.
However,
a brief summary which is "pretty close" to what Mike believes would include the
following:
"As of 1982, the key revelation, our True Bible, the Written Word of God, was now VPW's
PFAL class collaterals. This was not an official position of TWI, but it WAS the
position of God Almighty."
other gems include
"Recognizing that God appointed Dr as His spokesman is no moe idolatrous than recognizing
that God also appointed Paul 2000 years ago to a similar status? Why is this hard for you
to see?"
Tom Strange has a short list of some other quotes.
I think he's left out the following:
"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching
you from it."
(So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand.)
"Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once."
"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so."
Re: studying the Bible to gain understanding, the technique to learn as outlined in pfal,
Mike said
"...your present approach has failed for all those who tried it for 2000 years."
and
"God's Word was LOST in the first century."
He's also said the Bible -what everyone except Mike refers to as a Bible, and Mike is
unable to convince us to rename because it does not suit him-
is "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants".
Then again, he's also called them "approximations". His position on the KJV,
the critical texts, and anything called a Bible seems to change with his mood.
But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do? What would be your suggestion that I use to fill such a gap in my life? Search the Yellow Pages for a cheap psychologist? No thank you.
You'll read a couple of self-help books and give yourself a pep talk each morning, and that will be enough. And if it isn't enough, you'll spend the money and go to a counselor and you'll be grateful you did. You'll volunteer for Big Brothers, and go to the library to teach kids how to read. You'll serve lunch at the Soup Kitchen, and donate blood. You'll take up an instrument and join a rock band, an orchestra, a string ensemble. You'll write (but never finish) your first novel. You'll fall in love and raise kids and fall out of love and the kids will be grown and maybe you'll fall back in love. Or maybe not. You'll meet people. You'll make and lose friends, and the people you care about will get sick and die.
You'll go on hikes and build a bird house and plant an herb garden and catch butterflies. You'll take up sky diving and white water rafting and meet up with the guys in the morning before work for a quick game of basketball at the middle school gym. Your life won't be perfect because no life is perfect. You'll deal with it. You'll know joy and anger and forgiveness and longing, and you won't berate yourself for feeling all those things. And everything you've done up to this point will be part of your life experience, and you'll find the good in it all. Or not. You'll find God in all sorts of places you never thought to look, and occasionally you'll even find the meaning of life. You'll be just fine.
My statement "You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise." is not an attack, no matter how obscure the word you use to define it - - it is an OBSERVATION.
HCW is absolutely correct.
If he were to say, for example, you are a misogynistic sycophantic idolater, that would better qualify as a personal attack (although I contend that at least 2/3 of that probably qualifies as simple observation as well).
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
42
42
104
94
Popular Days
Feb 22
44
Feb 28
40
Mar 11
40
Mar 1
34
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 42 posts
HCW 42 posts
Mike 104 posts
Ham 94 posts
Popular Days
Feb 22 2005
44 posts
Feb 28 2005
40 posts
Mar 11 2005
40 posts
Mar 1 2005
34 posts
Popular Posts
Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
dmiller
Mike -- I bear you no ill will. Never have, never will -- regardless of what you believe. I did not try to *come down hard on you*, and am scratching my head right now, trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion.
-->
I try to get along with ALL, and am more than willing to listen to the *opposition*, cause if you don't hear the story from their mouth -- you have no cause to complain about the beliefs talked about.
Now -- I don't agree with you about pfal, and you don't agree with me (and others) about the bible. If you think we are *communicating better*, perhaps it is because I am trying my best to be polite, and attentive to what is being said (by you). I am hoping you can transcend pfal, and see there are other ways than that to God.
But --- given all you have said in the past, I doubt that that will be a *happening* thing anytime soon.
.
.
.
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
We agree this is now a Doctrinal thread.
Galen accepted it becoming one. (He approved of its direction on the thread.)
I say it's more sensible and easier for the moderators to just move this
thread to "Doctrinal", so I'll suggest this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mod Kirk
As requested.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
R ??»?ally posted by WordWolf:
Mike, page 11, 3/1/05, 2:15am eastern.
I thought this was too extra-special a post to let people miss it.
A) This is such a fantastic comment that it just HAS to be seen.
'You're unreliable as an authority as to whether a man's writings were directly
from God because you were there when they were developed, written, edited and
distributed, and were one of the main people directly involved in the process!
Since you were there, your ability to speak as an eyewitness is invalidated
because you saw it all, and were a direct participant!
Instead,
only someone who was completely divorced from the processes-several states away-
can speak with authority on what happened where you were at but they weren't!
Their lack of ability to recount the events, since they were not present for them,
is the very reason they are qualified to speak as an eyewitness to what they
didn't see!'
You tell ME if you get something different from that passage.
B) Presenting counterarguments, evidence, and eyewitness testimony that refutes
Mike's doctrine is now known as "filibustering". All that pesky data just gets in
the way.
Apparently, also, Mike still objects to this being a DISCUSSION FORUM rather than
a doctrinal platform for Mikean pfal.
Also, (Bullinger)
Mike suggested he might actually fund his own website or board,
rather than leech Paw's bandwidth and threads at the GSC. We'll see.
It's with no sense of surprise that Mike is shown considering himself
a teacher, one of unique doctrines, as in "The Teacher". This has been expected
for years around here, and predicted in various forms.
C) Mike's still trying to compliment with one hand and insult with the other.
Since HCW already caught him doing it, you think he'd not try it on HCW anymore....
Wolf, great post. I saw pure Mikean disinformation in his post. So eyewitnesses are too close to the situation to be valid. An editors of the mog are to be discounted!
This is why gnosticism keeps rearing its ugly head in christendom. People can't handle the truth from the witnesses, instead gravitating to the sources so far removed from the event that guesswork is elevated to orthodoxy.
The need to have "secret" knowlegde overrides all else so one can be perceived as enlightened.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Link to comment
Share on other sites
alfakat
BINGO!! Def, my thoughts exactly...Secret Knowledge is NOT the key to the Kingdom, with Old Leader Grads "Leading" the way(?!?) Jesus IS the Way, not some amateurish, sophomoric re-writes of other men's inspired understanding concerning the Master. All the knowledge about Jesus in the whole world is no substitute for the real deal. Picking over nits will not increase your fellowship with him. Period. End of story.
Take your piffle worship to someplace where someone cares, Mike........
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
The bible study software that I use is excellent. I have learned considerably more from it than I did with PFAL.
http://www.biblesoft.com/
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
Mike:
"We should give Galen his thread back."
Hmm,
To me IMHO, this thread, this forum is the moderator's and then the community of posters'.
It is not 'mine'.
Yes I first posted and began this particular thread. But I don;t see it as any form of toe-stepping that everyone with an opinion wants to jump in and contribute their 2cents.
I am saddened that so many who were hurt by The Way, have decided to take out their hurt on this class. Through-out Ex-Wayfers there are many who would admit that having taken PFAL has helped them, if you could only subtract the abuse of power-hungry leadership [pronounced Corpse-grads] :-)
As you'all know I do like PFAL. I also like some other ministry's things and courses. I see 'good' in them [including PFAL].
Now again I will step-back, and You'all can pounce with all your might upon this post and everythign else within the thread.
:-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Sanguinetti
Galen, we know you like the PFAL class, but think about this for a moment. The PFAL class may have some good material. However, many people here have already taken this class a number of times. If people who have taken this class many times already want to grow in knowledge they will need different material from other sources thus offering a fresh perspective. Actually, the PFAL series does not address a number of biblical topics. It's knowledge of the Old Testament is weak at best. Paul, the main writer of the New Testament on the other hand had a tremendous knowledge of the Old Testament which helped and influenced him in writing his church epistles. If a knowledge of the Old Testament was good enough for Paul why should not you and I learn from these books and gain more than what is offered in PFAL? Also important New Testament subjects such as "the Kingdom of God" and an understanding of Covenants are scarcely covered at all in PFAL. Jesus taught the subject of the kingdom of God perhaps more than any other. And basically, a knowledge of the Old and New Covenant is of paramount importance if we are going to be able to connect the dots. Just one look at your bible should tell us this importance. We have the Old Testament. Testament is another word for covenant. And we have the New Testament or new covenant. An understanding of these two subjects alone is very important for the Christian believers scriptural knowledge and understanding. Because these two subjects and others were left out of PFAL we have to go elsewhere for this knowledge. I recommend a fresh additional perspective. In so doing we will gain a more well rounded scriptural understanding.
Of course, the other option is to keep taking the PFAL class over and over again. Sort of the catechism, memorization, regurgitation approach. Yum!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
This is not to say that PFAL was not very helpful, and that I didn't personally benefit from it, but that in its "final" form it was designed specifically to push certain emotional buttons, and to groom us into a narrow TWI mindset.
Wierwille does a masterful job of starting with the the students' assumed hunger for a knowledge of the scriptures, hammering on the integrity of those scriptures for close to three sessions, demonstrating keys to interpreting the scriptures, and then laying out his definitions and interpretations. Even the skeptics are often accepting his unique definitions of Greek words and interpretations of the scripture without question by the end of the second week of class.
Now people like yourself, who run PFAL independent of TWI or any other group, obviously are not trying to indoctrinate anybody. It's interesting to me that the class is still alive and well almost forty years after its filming.
I'm not one who thinks that just because it's in PFAL that it has to be wrong either. The "keys", while very simple, were an amazing new thing to most of us when we first signed the green card. PFAL got a lot of us "searching the scriptures", which was certainly a good thing. While some doctrines taught in PFAL do not stand up to scrutiny IMHO, many do.
My main objection to PFAL was that it was used to manipulate me. The manipulation was partly, as you say, by power-hungry Corps grads, but ultimately by the power-hungry founder, Slick Vic Wierwille.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Who ever said I was "extremely close" to VPW? I knew him, Yes. I worked on his staff, yes. I worked with him, yes. I never said I was "extremely close" with him.
"That is THE most rediculous thing I've ever heard." I quote Groucho Marxz. However you spell his name this "debate" as Mike would call it is more comedy than anything else.
If you disagree w/me Mike, be honest enough to just say "I disagree." Call me wrong, if you feel I'm wrong. You obviously claim to believe what many of us feel is absolute idolatrous insanity.
But THIS, this is just rediculous. There are rules, standards for debating. For as much as you declare you are writing for this new, and equally damaging and rediculous category of "believers;" this is the freakin INTERNET. It just don't get no more public than that. There are people looking at this thread. You actually owe it to YOURSELF, Mike to present your side of this issue in such a manner that would give credence to your position; no matter how rediculous I or anyone else may believe it to be.
There is just NO way that a reasonable person could read your posts and believe you Mike. YOU - ARE - BLIND. Your arguments do more harm to your position than anyone on the other side could ever do. You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise.
I don't care if you reject my position as you are entitled to your opinion. The reality is that PFAL is what it is what it is. Neither you or I can "declare" it into any more than what it actually is.
Your rediculous antics disqualify YOU as the "one" who can speak for PFAL.You're crazy, if you believe the crap you've written.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Just a little, miniscule bit of nit-picking on my part, -- but its spelled 'ridiculous'.
Now, back to our show!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
less filling!
oops, wrong thread
:P--> where is the ? engineer anyway?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
Mark Sanguinetti:
"Galen, ... but think about this for a moment. The PFAL class may have some good material. ...
Of course, the other option is to keep taking the PFAL class over and over again. Sort of the catechism, memorization, regurgitation approach."
Hmm, I dont follow, uh, You wish to continue taking PFAL over and over again?
To what end?
Dont you understand that there is in fact a whole great and wonderful Christian world out there?
:-)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Mike said:
Mike that's just a falsehood. You have done nothing but claim that PFAL replaces the Bible for a long, long time... puhleeze! Man, who do you think you're dealing with... a bunch of amnesiacs?Link to comment
Share on other sites
Greek2me
Hey Mike, do you remember something along the lines of... "in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, let every word be established."?
originally posted by UncleHairy:
originally posted by def59:
originally posted by HCW:
Seems to me that based on the witnesses account alone there is evidence enough. Based on your own writings, claims and assertions, there is overwhelming body of evidence that speaks to your altered state of mind.
Mike, I, as do many here I'm sure, recomend you give this "pfal is God breathed" thing a break. You have, nor will ever, convince anyone of such utter nonsense.
In addition, for God's sake, get some counseling. You are mad. (4) witnesses. Now, I know what you're thinking... and that's the first and surest sign of your illness.
;)-->
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Further... Logically speaking, based on a simple (if - then) mathematical principle,
IF you use:
To both refute contrary positions and justify your position:
Then you MUST use the same logic to refute opposite positions and JUSTIFY simlar positions; regardless as to whom the person is, or WHAT the position is.
YOU threw the anchor down, Mike, when you said, and then repeated. "Use the EXACT words...." again to refute positions opposite of yours and to justify your own position.
Your position being:
that VPW, as moved by the Holy Spirit told us to master PFAL - - NOT the Bible. Your anchor of logic being, "If God had meant "that," he would have said, "PRECISELY that."
YET... when the OPPOSITE position, uses YOUR logigic, from the anchor position YOU set. You pull your own anchor and STILL refure the opposite position.
The opposite position being:
Neither VPW, and absolutely NOT God, ever said that anyone should "master PFAL" as a replacement for the Bible, which VPW considered and GOD considers to "be" God's Word.
Your anchor of logic being, "If God had meant "that," he would have said, "PRECISELY that."
The weight and power of logic, in a debate, is that opposite positions are compelled by the weight and power to draw the conclusion that the LOGIC suggests, not the will of the person propounding the position.
Therefore, the mathematical principle is evident and speaks clearly here.
Mike: IF you say that because Vp never said, "It's the Bible, it's the Bible, it's the Bible.... and nothing BUT the Bible!" to justify YOUR position...
you MUST accept that because VP never said (the EXACT words) "Its the PFAL, its the PFAL, its the PFAL.... and nothing BUT the PFAL!" to justify the OPPOSITE position...
and therfore rufute YOUR own position.
It is insanity to:
1. vehemently argue against your own position
2. apparently FORGET your own logic used in establishing your own position.
3. expect different results from doing the same thing over & over & over & over again.
It is immoral to:
1. Change your position in the middle of a debate while you say your position is constant.
2. Reject ALL logic, every other position, then insult people who don't share your position, DECLARE them as nobody....
3. then lie about all of the above.
My statement "You are unprincipled, immoral and reject any semblance of logic, Godly or otherwise." is not an attack, no matter how obscure the word you use to define it - - it is an OBSERVATION.
Same as this one: As I look out my window, I see it is a sunny morning as I'm typing this.
When I said you were BLIND that was actually the NICEST, most KIND, most GENTLE and MERCIFUL; "AGAPE" lovingly thing I could possibly say to you at this juncture. If you are NOT blind the things I would be compelled to say, by logic and Godly principle are much much worse.
STOP this Mike.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
No, thank you, HCW.
I have no intention of stopping what I do. (I may stop doing it HERE someday.) Trying to do it better is high on my priority list, though.
Speaking of consistency, is there a consistent, unalterable physical standard (that's already written) you answer to and derive guidance from? Or do you wing it with a semi-standard set of writings over which YOU are the final judge on what is believed and what is "scratched out" and what is wide-margin modified?
I'm NOT asking you if you abstractly look to the original manuscripts of the Bible (in their original languages and original understandings) as your only rule of faith and practice.
I am asking you if you have found (existing in the physical realm) a set of authoritative writings that you feel you must measure up to as your ultimate authority.
If you don't have such a set of writings as your only rule for faith and practice, don't feel embarrassed to say so. Hardly anyone here does. Most people make a set of judgment calls as to what portions of available versions of scripture in translation/version form they like and that they will live their life according to.... until they find some reason or some theologian's reason to alter that portion.
This is an easy question to answer. It can come in forms like "Yes I have such a standard, and this is what it is, and you can get a copy of it here: (...fill in the blank...)."
Or another simple answer can come in a form like: "No, but I'm working on one, and have many pieces of it in place already that are unalterable... almost... as far as I know now"
The second type of answer, the "No" answer, comes in many more varieties compared to the "Yes" answer. I just offered one common one.
If you feel like being very brief, I'd accept a simple yes or no answer, and then you can resume your tirade against me and my sanity. I'll wait until you seem to be finished before I attempt to collect my notes for answering points. If I have time I can answer them all, I think. There many be a few I don't know the answers to, or some that I don't know quite how to get the answer in print, but I'll try.
But "stop" will I? No, thanks. Suppose I do (just suppose), THEN what would I do? What would be your suggestion that I use to fill such a gap in my life? Search the Yellow Pages for a cheap psychologist? No thank you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface as usual.]
[Having an objective party help him review his life so far and what he'll see there is NOT a goal for Mike. He might discover he needs to reinvent himself now. That's not something he wishes to face. Of course, many others have faced the same issues, and HAVE reinvented their lives. Of course, Mike's no more willing to face the prospect as are some of the Region Coordinators. Both Mike and them will just deal with things when they have no other choice. BTW, there are FREE, totally FREE, counseling services all over the country. So, price is an EXCUSE, and the real reason is something other than price.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
laleo
You'll read a couple of self-help books and give yourself a pep talk each morning, and that will be enough. And if it isn't enough, you'll spend the money and go to a counselor and you'll be grateful you did. You'll volunteer for Big Brothers, and go to the library to teach kids how to read. You'll serve lunch at the Soup Kitchen, and donate blood. You'll take up an instrument and join a rock band, an orchestra, a string ensemble. You'll write (but never finish) your first novel. You'll fall in love and raise kids and fall out of love and the kids will be grown and maybe you'll fall back in love. Or maybe not. You'll meet people. You'll make and lose friends, and the people you care about will get sick and die.
You'll play poker. You'll go on hikes and build a bird house and plant an herb garden and catch butterflies. You'll take up photography and sky diving and Renaisance literature and white water rafting and meet up with the guys in the morning before work for a quick game of basketball at the middle school gym. You'll sign up for a class at the Community College. You'll post at GreaseSpot. Your life won't be perfect because no life is perfect. You'll deal with it. You'll know joy and anger and forgiveness and longing, and you won't berate yourself for feeling all those things. And everything you've done up to this point will be part of your life experience, and you'll find the good in it all. Or not. You'll find God in all sorts of places you never thought to look, and occasionally you'll even find the meaning of life. You'll be just fine.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Well, HE'S forgotten, so why should we prove to remember?
HCW,
Mike's adamantly refused to state his position in a direct fashion,
relying on cryptic comments and implications, and surprise when none of us are
impressed with his imagery and lack of substance shown.
However,
a brief summary which is "pretty close" to what Mike believes would include the
following:
"As of 1982, the key revelation, our True Bible, the Written Word of God, was now VPW's
PFAL class collaterals. This was not an official position of TWI, but it WAS the
position of God Almighty."
other gems include
"Recognizing that God appointed Dr as His spokesman is no moe idolatrous than recognizing
that God also appointed Paul 2000 years ago to a similar status? Why is this hard for you
to see?"
Tom Strange has a short list of some other quotes.
I think he's left out the following:
"When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching
you from it."
(So, Mike, you weren't kidding about JC coming with a PFAL book in his hand.)
"Totally serious. I've already seen him this way more than once."
"Jesus Christ appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL.
He told me so."
Re: studying the Bible to gain understanding, the technique to learn as outlined in pfal,
Mike said
"...your present approach has failed for all those who tried it for 2000 years."
and
"God's Word was LOST in the first century."
He's also said the Bible -what everyone except Mike refers to as a Bible, and Mike is
unable to convince us to rename because it does not suit him-
is "unreliable fragments" and "tattered remnants".
Then again, he's also called them "approximations". His position on the KJV,
the critical texts, and anything called a Bible seems to change with his mood.
Figured you'd like a quick update.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
This bore repeating.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
HCW is absolutely correct.
If he were to say, for example, you are a misogynistic sycophantic idolater, that would better qualify as a personal attack (although I contend that at least 2/3 of that probably qualifies as simple observation as well).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Thanks WW. I do appreciate the update. I agree, that Tom's post was worth repeating...maybe now it's been established?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.