If we're made to feel regretful we served as or appreciated other way corps then it's no different than when we were in twi and bought the spiel that the world around us was death.
Regarding Socks! He was the most tender and compassionate corps person you could have found. And I'm still honored to have given him the respect he EARNED from me 20 years ago while we were in the same area.
It's impossible for ALL way corps to have been dang, and I don't think any of you are saying ALL were, but sometimes this joint pushes you away when you speak positive things about twi. I have as much cause as ANYONE HERE (registered readers and/or lurkers) and I no longer will state it was all dang, because I would be bold face lying to do so.
Okay, I said nothing but that will never stop me and I reckon y'all know that by now.
Anybody wanna hold on to the old “cancer is devil” doctrine still? The “accuracy” of Doc Vics opinion about it? I’ve got some real issues with you. Anybody who could even THINK that this kid, who has three times the believing and goodness than I have can get possessed with a devil spirit from hell, I’ve got some real problems with you.
Mr. Hammeroni:
I agree w/ you here. Actually, I could never wrap my brain around that cancer being a devil spirit stuff, as in a person who has it is possessed, especially. Made no sense actually. From the first time I heard it, I felt it contradicted the fact that people CANNOT be possessed against their will.
I'm constantly astounded with how many folks say that TWI people played the "you're possessed" card. Seems like any time "they" didn't like you for any reason YOU are possessed. (When that happens, its usually a sign that the one "crying wolf!" is feeling inadequate in themselves to deal w/ you & trying to exert some "power" over you to bend you to their, inadequate will.)
INFORMING a well-intentioned believer the THEY are possessed is NOT sensible from ANY p.o.v. I can see. The Bible speaks of believers as being a "sweet smelling savor of Christ." It also speaks of how when Jesus just approached possessed people their spirits caused their hosts to fall at Jesus' feet & beg mercy from him. We were taught, and I believe, that a believer walking with God in Christ in him can cast out spirits from a distance, as they, the spirits "smell" you before you even get close enough to "discern" them.
It made absolutely NO sense that a devil spirit could "bum-rush" a believer and possess them against their will and knowledge. Especially so, thinking that a spirit can somehow "inject their essence into a human being's body and grow as a disease that has "life in itself."
I always viewed that as physicians not knowing enough about cancer and TWI not knowing enough about devil spirits to come up w/ a solution that made sense.
ANYONE who ever TOLD you YOU were possessed was an idiot when they said it.
I really don't care WHO they were or WHY they said it. Even if you WERE possessed, they STILL were an idiot to TELL you about it. The ONLY Biblical thing to do when a person with the "spiritual kahones" to discern that YOU are possessed would be for them to cast YOUR spirits out.
If a possessed person showed up at MY twig, I'd kick their spirit(s) out & welcome the person to stay for cookies & bug juice after twig. If I ever even HEARD that a TC or WC person was running around TELLING believers they were possessed, I'd have gone to them & did whatever necessary to stop them from hurting folks that way... up to and including kickin' some TC or WC butt.
The sense of kicking me, & people like me, out of the Corps & TWI becomes quite evident. Criag KNEW that a large majority of Corps would NEVER swear their allegiance to him. He also know that most of us who wouldn't follow him wouldn't leave the ministry either.
When he did the "who you gonna stand with?" letter he knew how people would respond, he just went through the motions to throw us out. Then he could have some legal ramifications to thrust upon us if we tried to throw HIM out. (Hence the Doug McMullan thing.)
After we were gone, there was basically nothing to stop the Corps from turning into the "corpse." There was a time when real possessed people were INVITED to HQ to live & stay a while to get rid of their spirits.
Can you imagine "bag lady" types or people that you see in big cities living out of stolen shopping carts roaming around the pristine grounds at TWI HQ? New Knoxville? That was one of the things the locals didn't like about VP. He INVITED real CRAZY people to NK!
I've seen it myself. Even talked to a guy once in the BRC basement. He had been healed and was eating before he went on his way.
LCM just didn't care about people at all. ALL he wanted was the power.
Looking back- I would say we stayed the correct course.
As wonderful as some of the stuff was that I DID get out of PFAL- I think we got deliverance IN SPITE OF a lot of it. There is so much more to God and life outside of the confines of PFAL and TWI.
Let's say I went the PFAL way- expect to "cast out" the cancer and expect it to dissappear. Just "believe" big enough. Just read enough Bible verses- make her "renew her mind" to eat the hospital food. My kid wouldn't be here today, really.
Sometimes you just can't make God do things in the way you want them done. Work all the keys, do this, do that- crap sometimes STILL happens. Like it or not, the flesh is weak.
Despite your best efforts, sometimes people DON'T get deliverance. Who knows why.. but if results are guaranteed, that kind of thinking is gonna kill you- SOMETHING you must have done wrong, some "truth" you must have not "mastered"- can only lead to insanity.
We knew of families of good hearted people that lost the fight. Every day, good hearted Christian people lose the fight- even with prayer and believing that God heals, all the way to the end. Anybody that would suggest that somehow they "missed it" or lacked to "master" some arcane doctrine- well, If I wasn't a civilized human being, I'd really get unglued.
On the other hand, I wouldn't lay back and accept defeat either. But sometimes crap just plain happens- what are you gonna do then?
[*snipped out several pages of transcribed material barely germane to the discussion*]
[For those of you arriving late, Mike claimed others were actively filibustering him when they stayed on-topic and posted at length. WTH is Mike's biggest supporter, and the unedited post above is the most conspicuous example of a "filibuster" in recent memory. I kept the things that were relevant in any way to the discussion. ]
But then, maybe you don’t want to. I’m surely not saying you have to. I’m just saying He will show you and teach you. He’ll show you how to be in health – He’ll teach you how to keep from getting sick. He’ll teach you how to live so you never get cancer. He’ll teach you how not to have heart problems. If you look on the inside, he’ll teach you just about anything. He’ll teach you of how many things? All things - everything. He’ll talk to you about how to have better fellowship with God, how to start your day out right so that things don’t distract you from starting your day out in His presence. He’ll teach you in the night time how to commune with your own heart. Man I don’t know what people do with out him -- without the holy spirit. But it’s pretty evident what they’re doing. They are failing, that’s what they’re doing.
[This is the return of that classic of twi-brain doctrines, Blame The Believer (BTB). That's the doctrine where you claim that people who are suffering would not BE suffering if they REALLY believed got, so it's THEIR fault. "Blame The Believer" says that the error-ridden doctrine NEVER is at fault-only the believer. ]
But He will teach you all things…everything. And look at this … and is truth. The holy spirit is also called the spirit of truth in God’s Word. That is why lying grieves him. But a lot of people lie to themselves and that’s also why they won’t be truthful with you. That is why you won’t have him working for you, - have him working on your behalf if you are a liar and a person given to deception. (There’s your answer why PFAL hasn’t worked for some people.)
[pfal, in part, has NEVER worked because part of it has ALWAYS been error. So, what was taught was not true, so what was taught was (possibly unintentionally) a LIE. vpw started from the position that tithes were wrong for the Christian. Once the tithes were coming to HIM, then he printed "Christians Should Be Prosperous", and made it MANDATORY reading and established doctrine. That's intellectually DIShonest. Since lying grieves God, God was not pleased by this, QED. Please note that, again, WTH has attempted to Blame The Believer (BTB) for pfal's failings.]
So if you want the holy spirit to be manifesting on the inside of you, and also working on your behalf, then you will also have to be a person that tells the truth – squeaky clean. And if you find yourself telling a lie, then you stop yourself right in the middle and say, “I’m sorry, I just told you something that wasn’t true.” Somebody just say, “Well WTH, I just can’t do that.”
[Who is this mysterious hypothetical person who's dishonest and lying to WTH here? Why invent a person? Oh, that's right-can't find an actual person that applies to, so invent a strawman. Old news.]
Well then, you can’t be free either! Why? Because you will know the truth and the truth will make you free. Telling lies is bondage and telling the truth is freedom. People will respect you more for telling them the truth than they ever will when they find out later on that you lied to them. Well that certainly would be embarrassing wouldn’t it? That’s right. It would embarrass the devil right out of your flesh - that’s what it would do.
[Of course, if you embrace a falsehood, you will believe it is truth and speak the falseness in your heart, and think you're doing the will of God....]
I know. “Image” is real big thing in our day. People want to have a good image with others and they always want to maintain that image. But then they don’t ever want to tell somebody they were wrong because that would “taint their image.” No, the truth is it will actually give you a better image in most people’s eyes. “Well, I’m just not led to tell the truth.”
[Please invite this hypothetical imaginary liar to join our discussions here. For someone who loves lies, they seem to have a remarkable candor about telling them...]
Proverbs 11:3
The integrity of the upright shall guide them: but the perverseness of transgressors will destroy them.
Integrity means doing the right thing – telling the truth, amongst other things. You don’t have to be a Christian to be a person of integrity. You don’t need a prompting of the holy spirit to do that. The integrity of the upright shall guide them. You see, according to God’s Word your not only supposed to be lead by the holy spirit but your also supposed to be led by integrity. “Well I just think the holy spirit is trying to lead me into telling people here a little bit of a fib, so, you know, I can get them back on the right path – yada, yada, yada.”
[Was all this from a chat in the chatroom? Apparently, I miss some fascinating discussions between WTH and these imaginary Christians. How much integrity does it demonstrate to invent opposing points of view and put words in their mouths, a la "the Strawman"?]
There are some who flippantly post responses but I choose not to respond. Why?
[because they're intellectually honest and your posts pale by comparison.]
But here’s the problem. We just don’t listen to that anymore. And that becomes a problem, we over ride it and start listening to the voice of offense. We only want to talk and hear about the offences of VPW, LCM, TWI, or someone else, etc.
[Actually, no, we'd just prefer that SOME people stop whitewashing the felonies committed by VPW. LCM, TWI, etc. We'd gladly save the trouble of continually exposing evils to light if some people didn't consider it their vocation to CONCEAL evils done by vpw, twi, etc.]
We’ve become accustomed to yielding to and listening to the voice of offense, or with arguing, or with strife, or those kind of things.
[When confronted with evildoing and concealment of evildoers, it is the responsibility of God's people to expose it, even if it is not what people WANT to hear, or it sounds unpleasant or harsh. Jesus in the temple sounded unkind to the moneychangers, Samuel and every real prophet could say the same.]
That’s practicing and listening to the wrong voice. The bible says there are many voices in the world - right? Well there are three in you. Are you awake now?
[Despite your efforts to drone past in a REAL filibuster, still awake.]
The Word of God says counsel is in the heart of a man as deep waters… (Proverbs 20:5). But a man of understanding doesn’t walk around saying, “I got council on the inside of me and you don’t – nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya!” One of the reason I don’t waste musc time with those who want to point out errors in PFAL.
Well, the only reason for the discussions is that some people keep putting forth the blatant lie that pfal has no errors. Confronting deceit, error and lies is all the justification needed to point out the flaws, errors, and intentional hijacks in pfal.]
A man of understanding will draw it out. That’s right. Everything you need is already on the inside of you. You need direction - that’s on the inside. You need deliverance, that’s on the inside. You need joy - that’s on the inside. You need to be a person of patience with someone - that’s on the inside.
To close my post I am going to say something I know that probably hasn’t been said in what may seem like ages to many of you. That is, God Bless you. I love you, you are the best!
[Does anyone here think this stock phrase is full (pletho OR pleroo) of honest love?]
So, to sum up,
WTH says that God says its wrong to expose error in pfal,
and felonies by vpw and twi staff.
All the times pfal failed you, it was really your fault.
WTH seems to spend his time offsite with hypothetical Christians who are upfront and honest
with him about loving lies and telling them all the time.
=======
Out of curiousity,
does anyone offhand recognize what document or teaching WTH transcribed here in an attempt
to sound wise?
It is wrong of him to plagiarize,
but to a degree, it's consistent.
He thinks it was perfectly fine for vpw to plagiarize, and he thinks it's perfectly fine
So if you want the holy spirit to be manifesting on the inside of you, and also working on your behalf, then you will also have to be a person that tells the truth – squeaky clean. And if you find yourself telling a lie, then you stop yourself right in the middle and say, “I’m sorry, I just told you something that wasn’t true.”
THIS, my friends, IS idolatry. It replaces God as a living, loving, soveriegn (sp?) Father with a mathematical formula:
Eg: 1+1 = 2
IF I want to get "2" - - I must add one PLUS one. If I do NOT add 1+1; I will NEVER get to "2" no matter what I think I've done I will never get to 2 unless I do the right thing. Where is GOD in that? I see a whole lot of I in it though.
I (1) plus 1 (my squeaky clean, non lying, truth speakin' self - my works) = 2 ("the holy spirit to be manifesting on the inside of you, and also working on your behalf")
IF I do this, then (and ONLY then) will God, who is ALIVE, in Christ, in me manifest His living presence in me. IF I lie, "poof" His living presence goes dormant. "Oh, I really need God's PROMISE of healing in my life right now so I'd better be good, or he won't even SPIT in my direction." Sure, I'll believe that... NOT!
The quote above turns recieving God's gift and gifts that HE GAVE to us and works through us into something WE do, which sounds a lot to me like WORKS. Our salvation is NOT of works, "lest any MAN (like WTH) should boast," like he just did.
Not only does it do that, it violates the first of the 10 Commandments, "Thou shalt have NO other gods before ME."
AND it indirectly DENIES the existence of Satan and the fact that we ALL are victims of "sin nature"
It turns US into the ONE who wields the power, which should be GOD. Therefore exaulting our throne ABOVE God.
Romans 7:18 - 21
"18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."
God NEVER demanded that we do anything to gain His presence in our lives but Romans 10:9
In a sense PFAL can be viewed as the most valuable class in th eworld because it DOES make it clear that one should and must be born again. On the other hand it did NOT make it clear how its emphasis on "Rightly dividing" the word of truth and God's word working with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision actually worked & fit with scriptures.
Although God IS perfect & all that He is still alive and he still works according to HIS perfect will in every situation. His promises are true, He IS just. righteous etc. BUT. He is NOT like electricity, power we use at our beck and call at our discretion.
In PFAL terms; the above statement, places WTH "above" God because "you have to be bigger than that which you explain."
Idolatry. Sounds just like an angel I once heard of.
[This is the return of that classic of twi-brain doctrines, Blame The Believer (BTB). That's the doctrine where you claim that people who are suffering would not BE suffering if they REALLY believed got, so it's THEIR fault. "Blame The Believer"
Who's blaming who? Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The ones blaming themselves would have to be those who are walking after the flesh then. Just listening to the voice of the flesh - they're blaming themselves, blaming somebody or something else. Blame a bible class called PFAL. But the best one of all of course, is digging up the past and finding something or someone else to blame.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally [of the flesh] minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5,6)
Blame? Well that is just one of the deeds of the flesh the Word of God tells us to crucify. Actually, it's one of the things the lord took to the cross and crucified for both you and me. So if you're blaming yourself then your not even walking in the love of God toward yourself. Don't tell me your walking in the love of God toward others if your blaming yourself, because you're not even walking in the love of God toward yourself - by blaming yourself. Who are you trying to kid anyway? (Maybe it is just yourself lying to yourself). Tell that voice of the flesh to SHUT UP!
quote:
vpw started from the position that tithes were wrong for the Christian. Once the tithes were coming to HIM, then he printed "Christians Should Be Prosperous", and made it MANDATORY reading and established doctrine. That's intellectually DIShonest. Since lying grieves God, God was not pleased by this, QED.
Remarkable you would bring up the subject of tithes and money to prove VPW was a liar. I wouldn't expect someone making a blanket statement like that to understand the book of Malachi is dealing with the subject of honor. Although Malachi does mention tithing, it's not really dealing with tithing but rather with honor. Without honor, your just kindling the fire on the alter of the lord for naught. And you still expect the lord to accept an offering at your hands? Who are you kidding anyway? (Just part of the lying to yourself again).
quote:
When confronted with evildoing and concealment of evildoers, it is the responsibility of God's people to expose it, even if it is not what people WANT to hear, or it sounds unpleasant or harsh.
And just how far do you think that has gotten the Christian church - HONESTLY? (Since we are now on the subject of honesty and integrity). Are you trying to teach me something by exposing all the evil that was in TWI (OR THE WHOLE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER) - how one can live the more abundant life by doing that? Are you still looking for devils and demons around every corner like you did when you were in TWI? You say your not? OK -- then, why are you still practicing what you now say you condemn? It doesn't sound to be very honest if you ask me. Oh that's right. Your just being led by the "holy spirit" to fib to us just a little bit to "get us back on the right track - spiritually".
So we don't need to listen to the anointing of the holy spirit to teach us, huh? That's what your saying? All we have to do is listen to the word of Professor Wordwolf here (or Doctor Wierdo-wille) or somebody else - here, there, or any place else to expose all the evil, and the demons and the devils to lead us into the "all truth". No thank you. I think I'll be sleeping through your sermon.
WordWolf references WTH's post 3/14/05 12:48am Eastern, responding to his own
response.....and trims his responses and the original posts to minimize rambling...
quote:
Originally posted by WordWolf:
[WordWolf in boldface as usual...]
quote:
Originally posted by What The Hay:
[*snipped out several pages of transcribed material barely germane to the discussion*]
[For those of you arriving late, Mike claimed others were actively filibustering him when they stayed on-topic and posted at length. WTH is Mike's biggest supporter, and the unedited post above is the most conspicuous example of a "filibuster" in recent memory. I kept the things that were relevant in any way to the discussion. ]
But then, maybe you don’t want to. I’m surely not saying you have to. I’m just saying He will show you and teach you. He’ll show you how to be in health – He’ll teach you how to keep from getting sick. He’ll teach you how to live so you never get cancer. He’ll teach you how not to have heart problems. If you look on the inside, he’ll teach you just about anything. He’ll teach you of how many things? All things - everything. He’ll talk to you about how to have better fellowship with God, how to start your day out right so that things don’t distract you from starting your day out in His presence. He’ll teach you in the night time how to commune with your own heart. Man I don’t know what people do with out him -- without the holy spirit. But it’s pretty evident what they’re doing. They are failing, that’s what they’re doing.
[This is the return of that classic of twi-brain doctrines, Blame The Believer (BTB). That's the doctrine where you claim that people who are suffering would not BE suffering if they REALLY believed got, so it's THEIR fault. "Blame The Believer" says that the error-ridden doctrine NEVER is at fault-only the believer. ]
[interesting how WTH responded to my highlighting how this is Blame The Believer by
removing what I responded to, and insinuating he didn't by saying ]
"Who's blaming who?"
[ Well, WTH, YOU'RE blaming any person who EVER suffered as the result of a lack
of believing God. "He'll teach you how to keep from getting sick..." and so on.
You posted it-perhaps you didn't READ it when posting it. That can happen when you're
copying from another document.
Then he went into a diatribe about "blame" being wrong, and said all blaming is the
result of walking after the flesh. Of course, he has no problem fudging the meaning
of the word "blame" so that anyone exposing evil is wrong to do so, and carnal.
Paul withstood Peter to the face, BECAUSE HE WAS TO BE BLAMED. (Galatians 2:11)
God held Adam, Eve and the serpent responsible for the evil that they did in Genesis 3.
Holding people responsible for the evil they did is not ungodly. It's Standard Operating
Procedure. The only mitigation is mercy, which NEVER claims an evildoer didn't do
wrong-it says we will not give him the punishment he duly earned.]
"Blame? Well that is just one of the deeds of the flesh the Word of God tells us to
crucify."
[Chapter and verse, please. I quoted one place where one Christian specifically did it because it was the appropriate and GOD-SANCTIONED thing to do. Might try a little more Bible and a little less "collateral books" sometime.]
But He will teach you all things…everything. And look at this … and is truth. The holy spirit is also called the spirit of truth in God’s Word. That is why lying grieves him. But a lot of people lie to themselves and that’s also why they won’t be truthful with you. That is why you won’t have him working for you, - have him working on your behalf if you are a liar and a person given to deception. (There’s your answer why PFAL hasn’t worked for some people.)
[pfal, in part, has NEVER worked because part of it has ALWAYS been error. So, what was taught was not true, so what was taught was (possibly unintentionally) a LIE. vpw started from the position that tithes were wrong for the Christian. Once the tithes were coming to HIM, then he printed "Christians Should Be Prosperous", and made it MANDATORY reading and established doctrine. That's intellectually DIShonest. Since lying grieves God, God was not pleased by this, QED. Please note that, again, WTH has attempted to Blame The Believer (BTB) for pfal's failings.]
[Not surprisingly, WTH attempted to deflect the charge of vpw's blatant DIShonesty
in reversing his position on the tithe as soon as it was in his financial interests to
do so....]
"Remarkable you would bring up the subject of tithes and money to prove VPW was a liar."
[Actually, YOU brought up the "honesty" and "lies" things, and it IS
intellectually DIShonest to teach that something is wrong and then completely reverse
your position when it is financially or politically advantageous to do so. He DID
reverse his position, and that reversal was exactly when it financially benefitted him to
do so. Now, if you had something of substance to counter that with, we'd see substance
rather than an insult. What was your reply?]
"I wouldn't expect someone making a blanket statement like that to understand the book
of Malachi is dealing with the subject of honor."
[insulting the intelligence of the poster is an ad hominem attack and is devoid of
substance.
vpw used the passage in Malachi in his book "Christians Should Be Prosperous" and said
it supported his position re: tithing. Are you calling HIM a liar when he says that,
or are you saying he was just plain wrong when he said that?
HE's the one who made a big deal of those verses=tithing. So, your arguing against what
HE said the verses meant.
Mind you, if you're MEANING to say vpw was wrong or lying by DISAGREEING with what vpw
wrote, that's fine with me. I'm not holding his book as an inerrant piece of Holy
Scripture.]
[ Then he claimed that I lacked understanding of Honor, which just goes to show.]
But here’s the problem. We just don’t listen to that anymore. And that becomes a problem, we over ride it and start listening to the voice of offense. We only want to talk and hear about the offences of VPW, LCM, TWI, or someone else, etc.
[Actually, no, we'd just prefer that SOME people stop whitewashing the felonies committed by VPW. LCM, TWI, etc. We'd gladly save the trouble of continually exposing evils to light if some people didn't consider it their vocation to CONCEAL evils done by vpw, twi, etc.]
We’ve become accustomed to yielding to and listening to the voice of offense, or with arguing, or with strife, or those kind of things.
[When confronted with evildoing and concealment of evildoers, it is the responsibility of God's people to expose it, even if it is not what people WANT to hear, or it sounds unpleasant or harsh.
[in an AMAZING example of selective reading, WTH stopped reading me RIGHT THERE and
leaped into an attack on me. Here's what the rest of my comment was...]
[Jesus in the temple sounded unkind to the moneychangers, Samuel and every real prophet could say the same.]
[As anyone could easily see, I gave examples from the Bible (and implied there were
many I didn't cite) to support my position. If Jesus did it, and he always did The
Father's will, then it was right for him to do so in the place and time he did it, QED.
But don't let a little thing like that stop WTH. His response?]
"And just how far do you think that has gotten the Christian church- HONESTLY? (Since we
are now on the subject of honesty and integrity.) Are you trying to teach me something
by exposing all the evil that was in TWI (OR THE WHOLE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER)- how one can
live the more abundant life by doing that? Are you still looking for devils and demons
around every corner like you did when you were in TWI? You say you're not? Ok-then, why
are you still practicing what you now say you condemn? It doesn't sound to be very honest
of you ask me. Oh that's right. Your just being led by the "holy spirit" to fib to us
just a little bit to "get us back on the right track-spiritually."
[ I'll address the rest of his comments after I get thru this set.
First, he says confronting evildoers is a bad thing and a waste of time for the
Christian church. Gotta give him credit-he didn't even spare JESUS CHRIST from his
critiquing of my critique.
Second, he compared exposing evil with "teaching something".
Why must everything be about another TEACHING?
Knowledge PUFFS up, God's love BUILDS up.
"How can one live the more abundant life by doing that?"
Well, I, for one, think this so-called "more abundant life" thing warrants a separate
discussion rather than just being invoked like a SLOGAN. However, here's my quick
answer.
You're asking me how I can live "the more abundant life" while doing something Godly.
In my personal life, "living the more abundant life" is a secondary concern at best.
Doing Godly stuff is of PRIMARY concern. Thus, if I have to choose between one OR
the other-as you suggest I do-then you can keep your slogan AND your mysterious
"more abundant life". God will provide, and I don't need another TEACHING or another
SLOGAN to trust God.
"Are you still looking for devils and demons around every corner like you did when you
were in TWI?"
First of all, you did not know me in twi, so this is a fabrication. WTH borrowed a page
from Mike's playbook: "pretend you know the hearts and private lives of everyone".
I never "looked around for devils and demons around every corner." Like any prudent
person who believes in their existence, I walked then like I do now, aware of my
surroundings and careful of dangers or potential threats of ANY kind. (Nowadays that
includes terrorist attacks.) Like I've always done-when I see someone about to
encounter trouble, I do what I can to prevent it or assist them-warning them before
they're in trouble, or notifying the police or authorities if that's not an option.
Painting me falsely as superstitious is ALSO neither intellectually honest, nor a
demonstration of integrity. This is not without irony, since WTH is the one who arrived
to lecture ME on integrity and honour, and seems to lack the proclivity to carry it out.
So, he's preaching it, but not practicing it.
"Why are you still practicing what you condemn?" What?
"It doesn't sound to be very honest if you ask me."
First of all, this is coming out of the blue. What did the imaginary searches for
devils in every ashcan(which WTH pretends I do) have to do with exposing evil where
it's found (which has Biblical precedents)?
Again I say, WTH came to lecture me on "honesty", but seems devoid of it in his responses
to me.
"Oh that's right. Your just being led by the 'holy spirit' to fib to us just a little bit
to 'get us back on the right track- spiritually.'
WTH, what have you been smoking?
Who invoked a spiritual anointing on my posts? You rambled at length before about
Christians-out of nowhere-who lie for any number of reasons. Where's the connection
between your imaginary examples who lie, and WordWolf? You just announcing out of
nowhere that I'm lying to people here for any reason? That's quite a claim to make
without supporting it. ANY claim has to be supported. Your comment has as much
"honesty" and "integrity" as it would have if I claimed that you'd been caught
sodomizing zebras at a zoo one year, and left it at that, with no evidence, proof
or eyewitness accounts.
Let's let WTH finish his invented accusations. ]
"So, we don't need to listen to the anointing of the holy spirit to teach us, huh?
That's what your saying? All we have to do is listen to the word of Professor Wordwolf
here (or Doctor (Wierdo-wille) or someone else-here, there or any place else to expose
all the evil, and the demons and the devils to lead us into the "all truth".
No thank you. I think I'll be sleeping through your sermon."
[Again, I ask, what have you been smoking?
Your imaginary Christians of your previous post argued against the anointing of the
holy spirit. There is NO connection between them and anything I posted.
"That's what your saying?"
WHERE?
WHERE did you see that being said?
I'm sure the rest of us would like to know, and not just me.
Except in your OWN post by your hypothetical Christians...
"All we need to do..."
No, that's not ALL we need to do. That's ONE thing we need to do, like eating daily is
ONE thing we need to do. If you neglect the OTHER things we need to do (like showering
and putting on clean clothes before going to work or school), then you will have
problems. JUST exposing evil or confronting evil is very taxing. Ever wonder why so many
policemen drink on a regular basis? Their jobs are frequently imbalanced that way.
I never suggested it was ALL we do.
And it's DOCTOR WordWolf, (I have a doctor's in Theology from Silicon Hills, complete
with certificate, among other degrees) not PROFESSOR WordWolf.
Who said I wanted to "lead" anyone anywhere, let alone into the "all truth"?
That's YOUR gig, not mine.
Plus, this tossing in the superstition again was unwarranted again.
Finally, I've never invited you to my sermons, and I don't intend to.]
The Word of God says counsel is in the heart of a man as deep waters… (Proverbs 20:5). But a man of understanding doesn’t walk around saying, “I got council on the inside of me and you don’t – nya, nya, nya, nya, nya, nya!” One of the reason I don’t waste musc time with those who want to point out errors in PFAL.
Well, the only reason for the discussions is that some people keep putting forth the blatant lie that pfal has no errors. Confronting deceit, error and lies is all the justification needed to point out the flaws, errors, and intentional hijacks in pfal.]
So, to sum up,
WTH says that God says its wrong to expose error in pfal,
and felonies by vpw and twi staff.
All the times pfal failed you, it was your fault.
To sum up FURTHER,
WTH is trying to NOT say it was wrong when Jesus exposed error but it is wrong when
WE do it,
and that warning others of dangers is tantamount to poking thru the bushes looking
for demons to shoo away.
Finally, WTH is party to some lenghty ongoing problems with some bizarre Christians
somewhere who are honest about lying to him, and lie to him to advance the truth.
He might want to ditch them-most of us have sane acquaintances than that.
Despite your best efforts, sometimes people DON'T get deliverance. Who knows why.. but if results are guaranteed, that kind of thinking is gonna kill you- SOMETHING you must have done wrong, some "truth" you must have not "mastered"- can only lead to insanity.
We knew of families of good hearted people that lost the fight. Every day, good hearted Christian people lose the fight- even with prayer and believing that God heals, all the way to the end. Anybody that would suggest that somehow they "missed it" or lacked to "master" some arcane doctrine- well, If I wasn't a civilized human being, I'd really get unglued.
On the other hand, I wouldn't lay back and accept defeat either. But sometimes crap just plain happens- what are you gonna do then?
Excellent points Mr. H!
That is among my strongest remaining memories. The look of pity from my leadership when I dared buck the system and speak this type thing. In fact I bought the darn lie my sister had to die because she gave up the fight and decided heaven was a better option than the ravaged frail body that lay before me with those pleading eyes for understanding. AND BECAUSE I WAS SO FRIKEN WAY BRAIN I DIDN'T HAVE THE FRIKEN ANSWER TO GIVE HER!!!!! Had I given her the one I was given by twi she was receiving what she was believing for....TO DIE. What a bunch of buttwipes when it came to needing your heart tended to. I know, I know....I sound like I speak from both sides of my mouth....but they BLEW IT on this cancer thing BIG TIME!!!!!
I had some situations like that- sometimes giving no answer was far better than the one "leadership" gave us- but even when I did- can't condemn myself. I was just a little bit ignorant too- even with all of the study, all of the "mastering" of the sacred materials..all the classes.
Looking back in the "good old days" I see times I wasn't much better than "a brute beast"- but thank God I've forgiven myself, thank God I've changed in a FEW categories.
But for me, what it took to really purge the "cancer is devil" crap was for it to happen so close to home for me. Suddenly, I was confronted with a few facts and truths that othewise I'd probably never figured out. Really gave me a chance to "take out the garbage".
My kid "possessed"? Not in a thousand years.
Despite doing the best I knew to do, it STILL HAPPENED. We prayed. We read the bible. We read and attempted to apply what we learned the best we could- including PFAL. There was no fear, no fear that my family would get sick, no fear that I'd lose anybody in my family.. no fear. I was- and still am (at least somewhat- maybe more realistically now) "the Confident Believer". I still believe God heals.. seen if happen first hand, just not the way I would have thought it should have been done.
Sure taught me some stuff.. but I wouldn't wish this lesson on ANYBODY.
For those who still hold to the "accuracy" of PFAL.. Still think cancer is a devil spirit? Think you have the magic formula to fix everything? Go ahead, keep your friggin error- keep your illusion.. but it sure is not practical or realistic. I hope you don't learn this lesson the hard way- I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
To the best of my limited knowledge, the "cancer = spirit" teaching never appears in the written form of PFAL, nor in the '67 film class.
I'm nearly 100% sure that it never appears in the 1979 Advanced Class video tapes.
It was conspicuously absent in my live AC in 1975.
I can't find it in my 1975 AC syllabus.
All of my knowledge of that doctrine traces back to TVT sources in the early 70's, like '72 and '73.
I have posted on this about three or four times in the past two years.
When I have a viral infection, or a bacteriological infection, or a fungal infection that hurt my well being, I am thankful to know that they are NOT OF God and that I can look to God for help in healing.
Unrealistic claims, unrealistic expectations- a lot of it was good, but a lot of it- well, whew.
In my opinion, anybody who swallows it hook line and sinker just hasn't lived life.
"Promotes harmony in the home" - I guess its time to work this one over.
Bull- frigging- dang. Sorry for the cussing..
Sure, some things work OK, but.
Sure did not save my marriage. I don't blame God, or the Word as such. But I think we had some real unrealistic expectations. Maybe not everybody has had the same experience, but I know what happened to me.
Why I am posting this, God only knows..
One day you will wake up and find that you're a tenth the man you thought you were- or your wife will- especially if you've bought into these unrealistic claims.
Honestly. Some day you or your spouse may finally face the fact that you can't fix everything. You can't always jump over the tallest devils with a single bound, that you can't stop every natural disaster in history, that you can't deliver anything near this kind of expectation.
They will wake up, and finally figure out that you are just plain miserable at times. They will find that at times, you can just be downright devilish.
You may wake up one morning, and find out that she is not the "submissive" wife that you though she was.. and that she just won't take any more "dang". Myself, I thought that was the neatest thing. Crap I did not know I was even giving out.
Sometimes, they find that you are about perceptive about what's going on as a brick- and its still not necessarily your fault- just the way you are. Some of us need our attention gotten almost with a two by four sometimes.
They may find that you still can't communicate like they'd want you to in some categories.
Cripe, I don't blame her for leaving- I know who she was married to!
Neither do I condemn myself.. I am only human.
It's real easy to sit on the sidelines and claim the "God-breathedness" and "accuracy" of PFAL.. Real easy to MAKE the claims. Real easy to DEMAND others to live up to them. Its WAY too easy.
When I ask for some results, I have a few good reasons. I bought into the greatness of it at one time.
Ignoring doctrinal objections for a minute-
some of it worked OK- but sorry, in a lot of practical details of MY life, it failed, miserably. Want to blame me? Somehow, that I "failed" PFAL? Go ahead- I hope you don't have to walk in my shoes.
To the best of my limited knowledge, the "cancer = spirit" teaching never appears in the written form of PFAL, nor in the '67 film class.
It is PRINTED in my syllabus, and it was TAUGHT.
But the previous post- as strange as all this may sound, I would not trade the experiences in life for anything. First of all, there is NO WAY to change it- I have faced that.
I have heard kids talk.. "well, I would want a STRONG husband, one who can do this, do that, one that can renew his mind, one that can.."
In doing this, he's attempted to claim that God disapproves of us exposing the evil deeds of men ...
First of all, I never made such a claim like that and you know it. I just don't believe the true God needs your help that's all, because he is the teacher who leads us into all truth. That is my claim and I am sticking to it. It's not you, Doctor Wordwolf. It's not me, Dr. Wierwille, LCM, or anybody else inside or outside TWI. It is the holy spirit that leads us into all truth - so who in the he** do you think you are? About all I am conviced of (so far) is your only out to prove to everybody your really some great theologan by exposing all the evils that men do. But then, your not the only one doing it. Well ... good luck to both of you.
Ok then, show us all the evil. Use your great puffed up knowledge of the scriptures to show us all the evil there. Show us from your knowledge and working of the scriptures all the evil - all the devils and the demons - how their leader has a devil spirit of mongoose working in them!! Funny, I was at their fellowship and their leader, their doctor of theology just did that and he proved from the scriptures how you have a devil spirit of python working in you! (Sound familiar to anyone?)
About the only thing I agree with you on from your last post is: knowledge puffs up. We just disagree on the type of knowedge though - knowing someone after the flesh or after the spirit. Knowing someone after the flesh always becomes a fight. It always seems to become a fight between mongoose and snake doesn't it? Just another denominational split. It's just, "Riki-Tiki-Tavi" one more time with everybody all the time! "When I was a young man, I believed there were organizations that would kill my snakes for me, i.e. the church, i.e. the government, i.e. the school. But when I got a little older, I learned I had to kill them myself." I believe that's a line from an old 1970's song by: Donovan - Riki-Tiki-Tavi. (Giving credit where credit is due so somebody here won't accuse me of plagarizing Donovan.)
When I grew up spiritually I realized: "I don't need no DOCTOR - especially a doctor of theology!" You'll realize it too when you start to grow up spiritually and start listening to the holy spirit on the inside of you. That's right. I don't need someone to come around to kill my snakes for me. I have the holy spirit on the inside to do that. So do you if your a born again Christian. Don't let some foolheaded "doctor of theology" come along and tell you that you need them and their "knowledge of the scriptures" to expose the evils of men. Do you really think they are out to destroy the evils of mankind? They're just blowing smoke up your - well, you know. Truthfully I wouldn't even call it smoke. It's more like hot air. Smoke has a bit more substance to it than their doctrines and theologies. I've already been there, done that, and got their lousy t-shirt. Maybe you got one to. And their old t-shirt is worn out and full of holes - and your's certainly is not in any bit better shape. Mongoose or Snake - which one of those lousy t-shirts do you want? NO THANK YOU. You can keep your lousy t-shirt! I threw that ol' t-shirt out some time ago.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
ChattyKathy
If we're made to feel regretful we served as or appreciated other way corps then it's no different than when we were in twi and bought the spiel that the world around us was death.
Regarding Socks! He was the most tender and compassionate corps person you could have found. And I'm still honored to have given him the respect he EARNED from me 20 years ago while we were in the same area.
It's impossible for ALL way corps to have been dang, and I don't think any of you are saying ALL were, but sometimes this joint pushes you away when you speak positive things about twi. I have as much cause as ANYONE HERE (registered readers and/or lurkers) and I no longer will state it was all dang, because I would be bold face lying to do so.
Okay, I said nothing but that will never stop me and I reckon y'all know that by now.
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HCW
Mr. Hammeroni:
I agree w/ you here. Actually, I could never wrap my brain around that cancer being a devil spirit stuff, as in a person who has it is possessed, especially. Made no sense actually. From the first time I heard it, I felt it contradicted the fact that people CANNOT be possessed against their will.
I'm constantly astounded with how many folks say that TWI people played the "you're possessed" card. Seems like any time "they" didn't like you for any reason YOU are possessed. (When that happens, its usually a sign that the one "crying wolf!" is feeling inadequate in themselves to deal w/ you & trying to exert some "power" over you to bend you to their, inadequate will.)
INFORMING a well-intentioned believer the THEY are possessed is NOT sensible from ANY p.o.v. I can see. The Bible speaks of believers as being a "sweet smelling savor of Christ." It also speaks of how when Jesus just approached possessed people their spirits caused their hosts to fall at Jesus' feet & beg mercy from him. We were taught, and I believe, that a believer walking with God in Christ in him can cast out spirits from a distance, as they, the spirits "smell" you before you even get close enough to "discern" them.
It made absolutely NO sense that a devil spirit could "bum-rush" a believer and possess them against their will and knowledge. Especially so, thinking that a spirit can somehow "inject their essence into a human being's body and grow as a disease that has "life in itself."
I always viewed that as physicians not knowing enough about cancer and TWI not knowing enough about devil spirits to come up w/ a solution that made sense.
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ChattyKathy
Having lost my sister to cancer this is personal to me but I've no time now.
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HCW
Not trying to one-up you ChattyK, but I lost my Mom to cancer. My first ex-Mother in law died from a different type of cancer too.
Just connecting w/you on the "personal to me" tip.
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ChattyKathy
Thank you Howard, and I'm sorry for your loss. Must head out the door.
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HCW
BTW.
ANYONE who ever TOLD you YOU were possessed was an idiot when they said it.
I really don't care WHO they were or WHY they said it. Even if you WERE possessed, they STILL were an idiot to TELL you about it. The ONLY Biblical thing to do when a person with the "spiritual kahones" to discern that YOU are possessed would be for them to cast YOUR spirits out.
If a possessed person showed up at MY twig, I'd kick their spirit(s) out & welcome the person to stay for cookies & bug juice after twig. If I ever even HEARD that a TC or WC person was running around TELLING believers they were possessed, I'd have gone to them & did whatever necessary to stop them from hurting folks that way... up to and including kickin' some TC or WC butt.
The sense of kicking me, & people like me, out of the Corps & TWI becomes quite evident. Criag KNEW that a large majority of Corps would NEVER swear their allegiance to him. He also know that most of us who wouldn't follow him wouldn't leave the ministry either.
When he did the "who you gonna stand with?" letter he knew how people would respond, he just went through the motions to throw us out. Then he could have some legal ramifications to thrust upon us if we tried to throw HIM out. (Hence the Doug McMullan thing.)
After we were gone, there was basically nothing to stop the Corps from turning into the "corpse." There was a time when real possessed people were INVITED to HQ to live & stay a while to get rid of their spirits.
Can you imagine "bag lady" types or people that you see in big cities living out of stolen shopping carts roaming around the pristine grounds at TWI HQ? New Knoxville? That was one of the things the locals didn't like about VP. He INVITED real CRAZY people to NK!
I've seen it myself. Even talked to a guy once in the BRC basement. He had been healed and was eating before he went on his way.
LCM just didn't care about people at all. ALL he wanted was the power.
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Bluzeman
I think we should ALL master PFML! Amazing Sea Monkeys From Mars Forever!
Opps, sorry! Wrong thread!
:)-->
Rick
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Ham
Looking back- I would say we stayed the correct course.
As wonderful as some of the stuff was that I DID get out of PFAL- I think we got deliverance IN SPITE OF a lot of it. There is so much more to God and life outside of the confines of PFAL and TWI.
Let's say I went the PFAL way- expect to "cast out" the cancer and expect it to dissappear. Just "believe" big enough. Just read enough Bible verses- make her "renew her mind" to eat the hospital food. My kid wouldn't be here today, really.
Sometimes you just can't make God do things in the way you want them done. Work all the keys, do this, do that- crap sometimes STILL happens. Like it or not, the flesh is weak.
Despite your best efforts, sometimes people DON'T get deliverance. Who knows why.. but if results are guaranteed, that kind of thinking is gonna kill you- SOMETHING you must have done wrong, some "truth" you must have not "mastered"- can only lead to insanity.
We knew of families of good hearted people that lost the fight. Every day, good hearted Christian people lose the fight- even with prayer and believing that God heals, all the way to the end. Anybody that would suggest that somehow they "missed it" or lacked to "master" some arcane doctrine- well, If I wasn't a civilized human being, I'd really get unglued.
On the other hand, I wouldn't lay back and accept defeat either. But sometimes crap just plain happens- what are you gonna do then?
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface as usual...]
So, to sum up,
WTH says that God says its wrong to expose error in pfal,
and felonies by vpw and twi staff.
All the times pfal failed you, it was really your fault.
WTH seems to spend his time offsite with hypothetical Christians who are upfront and honest
with him about loving lies and telling them all the time.
=======
Out of curiousity,
does anyone offhand recognize what document or teaching WTH transcribed here in an attempt
to sound wise?
It is wrong of him to plagiarize,
but to a degree, it's consistent.
He thinks it was perfectly fine for vpw to plagiarize, and he thinks it's perfectly fine
for himself to plagiarize.
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HCW
THIS, my friends, IS idolatry. It replaces God as a living, loving, soveriegn (sp?) Father with a mathematical formula:
Eg: 1+1 = 2
IF I want to get "2" - - I must add one PLUS one. If I do NOT add 1+1; I will NEVER get to "2" no matter what I think I've done I will never get to 2 unless I do the right thing. Where is GOD in that? I see a whole lot of I in it though.
I (1) plus 1 (my squeaky clean, non lying, truth speakin' self - my works) = 2 ("the holy spirit to be manifesting on the inside of you, and also working on your behalf")
IF I do this, then (and ONLY then) will God, who is ALIVE, in Christ, in me manifest His living presence in me. IF I lie, "poof" His living presence goes dormant. "Oh, I really need God's PROMISE of healing in my life right now so I'd better be good, or he won't even SPIT in my direction." Sure, I'll believe that... NOT!
The quote above turns recieving God's gift and gifts that HE GAVE to us and works through us into something WE do, which sounds a lot to me like WORKS. Our salvation is NOT of works, "lest any MAN (like WTH) should boast," like he just did.
Not only does it do that, it violates the first of the 10 Commandments, "Thou shalt have NO other gods before ME."
AND it indirectly DENIES the existence of Satan and the fact that we ALL are victims of "sin nature"
It turns US into the ONE who wields the power, which should be GOD. Therefore exaulting our throne ABOVE God.
Romans 7:18 - 21
"18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."
God NEVER demanded that we do anything to gain His presence in our lives but Romans 10:9
In a sense PFAL can be viewed as the most valuable class in th eworld because it DOES make it clear that one should and must be born again. On the other hand it did NOT make it clear how its emphasis on "Rightly dividing" the word of truth and God's word working with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision actually worked & fit with scriptures.
Although God IS perfect & all that He is still alive and he still works according to HIS perfect will in every situation. His promises are true, He IS just. righteous etc. BUT. He is NOT like electricity, power we use at our beck and call at our discretion.
In PFAL terms; the above statement, places WTH "above" God because "you have to be bigger than that which you explain."
Idolatry. Sounds just like an angel I once heard of.
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HCW
Faith is the substance of things we hope for, it is the tangible evidence we have today of the things we envision but have not yet recieved.
To recieve anything from God you must first believe that He is then believe He truly is a rewarder to them that diligently seek him.
Ye have not because you ask not. If ask and recieve not it is because you've asked for the wrong things.
If you have the faith of a mustard seed...
Faith without works is dead...
You tell me of your works of faith, I show you my faith BY my works....
That is some of what God has said about recieving from Him.
As the heaven is high above the Earth so are my thoughts above your thoughts and my ways above your ways.
I am in heaven and you are on the Earth, therefore let thy words be few....
In other words WE shouldn't have a lot to say about HOW God and WHY God makes His decisions...
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What The Hay
Who's blaming who? Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. The ones blaming themselves would have to be those who are walking after the flesh then. Just listening to the voice of the flesh - they're blaming themselves, blaming somebody or something else. Blame a bible class called PFAL. But the best one of all of course, is digging up the past and finding something or someone else to blame.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally [of the flesh] minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Romans 8:5,6)
Blame? Well that is just one of the deeds of the flesh the Word of God tells us to crucify. Actually, it's one of the things the lord took to the cross and crucified for both you and me. So if you're blaming yourself then your not even walking in the love of God toward yourself. Don't tell me your walking in the love of God toward others if your blaming yourself, because you're not even walking in the love of God toward yourself - by blaming yourself. Who are you trying to kid anyway? (Maybe it is just yourself lying to yourself). Tell that voice of the flesh to SHUT UP!
Remarkable you would bring up the subject of tithes and money to prove VPW was a liar. I wouldn't expect someone making a blanket statement like that to understand the book of Malachi is dealing with the subject of honor. Although Malachi does mention tithing, it's not really dealing with tithing but rather with honor. Without honor, your just kindling the fire on the alter of the lord for naught. And you still expect the lord to accept an offering at your hands? Who are you kidding anyway? (Just part of the lying to yourself again).
And just how far do you think that has gotten the Christian church - HONESTLY? (Since we are now on the subject of honesty and integrity). Are you trying to teach me something by exposing all the evil that was in TWI (OR THE WHOLE WORLD FOR THAT MATTER) - how one can live the more abundant life by doing that? Are you still looking for devils and demons around every corner like you did when you were in TWI? You say your not? OK -- then, why are you still practicing what you now say you condemn? It doesn't sound to be very honest if you ask me. Oh that's right. Your just being led by the "holy spirit" to fib to us just a little bit to "get us back on the right track - spiritually".
So we don't need to listen to the anointing of the holy spirit to teach us, huh? That's what your saying? All we have to do is listen to the word of Professor Wordwolf here (or Doctor Wierdo-wille) or somebody else - here, there, or any place else to expose all the evil, and the demons and the devils to lead us into the "all truth". No thank you. I think I'll be sleeping through your sermon.
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HCW
and your point is...????
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WordWolf
WordWolf references WTH's post 3/14/05 12:48am Eastern, responding to his own
response.....and trims his responses and the original posts to minimize rambling...
To sum up FURTHER,
WTH is trying to NOT say it was wrong when Jesus exposed error but it is wrong when
WE do it,
and that warning others of dangers is tantamount to poking thru the bushes looking
for demons to shoo away.
Finally, WTH is party to some lenghty ongoing problems with some bizarre Christians
somewhere who are honest about lying to him, and lie to him to advance the truth.
He might want to ditch them-most of us have sane acquaintances than that.
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WordWolf
Oh, that one's easy, HCW.
WTH here, unless he's changed positions, is a Mikean.
Therefore, he despises the suggestion that vpw ever did ANYTHING wrong,
and goes out of his way to discourage discusssions of vpw
plagiarizing
molesting/raping/slipping a Mickey Finn
teaching error
Today, he's focusing in that rather than trying to claim pfal is
God-breathed. In doing this, he's attempted to claim that God disapproves
of us exposing the evil deeds of men,
and gone off at great length on subjects that have nothing to do with
the GSC,
with imaginary people who've never visited nor posted here.
According to his imaginary people, my thinking processes are not sound.
That strikes me as mildly ironic.
He's also set himself up as an authority on honesty and integrity at the
moment, and will make his points, even if he has to lie and wildly
misrepresent what everyone says here while he lectures on honesty and
integrity.
Try not to follow his "logic" too hard-it only makes the head hurt
after a certain point.
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ChattyKathy
So does the class take place in the water? And if so sign me up man!
:)-->
Geez! have I not learned?
;)-->
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ChattyKathy
Excellent points Mr. H!
That is among my strongest remaining memories. The look of pity from my leadership when I dared buck the system and speak this type thing. In fact I bought the darn lie my sister had to die because she gave up the fight and decided heaven was a better option than the ravaged frail body that lay before me with those pleading eyes for understanding. AND BECAUSE I WAS SO FRIKEN WAY BRAIN I DIDN'T HAVE THE FRIKEN ANSWER TO GIVE HER!!!!! Had I given her the one I was given by twi she was receiving what she was believing for....TO DIE. What a bunch of buttwipes when it came to needing your heart tended to. I know, I know....I sound like I speak from both sides of my mouth....but they BLEW IT on this cancer thing BIG TIME!!!!!
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Ham
Yep..
I had some situations like that- sometimes giving no answer was far better than the one "leadership" gave us- but even when I did- can't condemn myself. I was just a little bit ignorant too- even with all of the study, all of the "mastering" of the sacred materials..all the classes.
Looking back in the "good old days" I see times I wasn't much better than "a brute beast"- but thank God I've forgiven myself, thank God I've changed in a FEW categories.
But for me, what it took to really purge the "cancer is devil" crap was for it to happen so close to home for me. Suddenly, I was confronted with a few facts and truths that othewise I'd probably never figured out. Really gave me a chance to "take out the garbage".
My kid "possessed"? Not in a thousand years.
Despite doing the best I knew to do, it STILL HAPPENED. We prayed. We read the bible. We read and attempted to apply what we learned the best we could- including PFAL. There was no fear, no fear that my family would get sick, no fear that I'd lose anybody in my family.. no fear. I was- and still am (at least somewhat- maybe more realistically now) "the Confident Believer". I still believe God heals.. seen if happen first hand, just not the way I would have thought it should have been done.
Sure taught me some stuff.. but I wouldn't wish this lesson on ANYBODY.
For those who still hold to the "accuracy" of PFAL.. Still think cancer is a devil spirit? Think you have the magic formula to fix everything? Go ahead, keep your friggin error- keep your illusion.. but it sure is not practical or realistic. I hope you don't learn this lesson the hard way- I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
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Mike
Mr. Hammeroni,
To the best of my limited knowledge, the "cancer = spirit" teaching never appears in the written form of PFAL, nor in the '67 film class.
I'm nearly 100% sure that it never appears in the 1979 Advanced Class video tapes.
It was conspicuously absent in my live AC in 1975.
I can't find it in my 1975 AC syllabus.
All of my knowledge of that doctrine traces back to TVT sources in the early 70's, like '72 and '73.
I have posted on this about three or four times in the past two years.
When I have a viral infection, or a bacteriological infection, or a fungal infection that hurt my well being, I am thankful to know that they are NOT OF God and that I can look to God for help in healing.
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Ham
Unrealistic claims, unrealistic expectations- a lot of it was good, but a lot of it- well, whew.
In my opinion, anybody who swallows it hook line and sinker just hasn't lived life.
"Promotes harmony in the home" - I guess its time to work this one over.
Bull- frigging- dang. Sorry for the cussing..
Sure, some things work OK, but.
Sure did not save my marriage. I don't blame God, or the Word as such. But I think we had some real unrealistic expectations. Maybe not everybody has had the same experience, but I know what happened to me.
Why I am posting this, God only knows..
One day you will wake up and find that you're a tenth the man you thought you were- or your wife will- especially if you've bought into these unrealistic claims.
Honestly. Some day you or your spouse may finally face the fact that you can't fix everything. You can't always jump over the tallest devils with a single bound, that you can't stop every natural disaster in history, that you can't deliver anything near this kind of expectation.
They will wake up, and finally figure out that you are just plain miserable at times. They will find that at times, you can just be downright devilish.
You may wake up one morning, and find out that she is not the "submissive" wife that you though she was.. and that she just won't take any more "dang". Myself, I thought that was the neatest thing. Crap I did not know I was even giving out.
Sometimes, they find that you are about perceptive about what's going on as a brick- and its still not necessarily your fault- just the way you are. Some of us need our attention gotten almost with a two by four sometimes.
They may find that you still can't communicate like they'd want you to in some categories.
Cripe, I don't blame her for leaving- I know who she was married to!
Neither do I condemn myself.. I am only human.
It's real easy to sit on the sidelines and claim the "God-breathedness" and "accuracy" of PFAL.. Real easy to MAKE the claims. Real easy to DEMAND others to live up to them. Its WAY too easy.
When I ask for some results, I have a few good reasons. I bought into the greatness of it at one time.
Ignoring doctrinal objections for a minute-
some of it worked OK- but sorry, in a lot of practical details of MY life, it failed, miserably. Want to blame me? Somehow, that I "failed" PFAL? Go ahead- I hope you don't have to walk in my shoes.
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Ham
It is PRINTED in my syllabus, and it was TAUGHT.
But the previous post- as strange as all this may sound, I would not trade the experiences in life for anything. First of all, there is NO WAY to change it- I have faced that.
I have heard kids talk.. "well, I would want a STRONG husband, one who can do this, do that, one that can renew his mind, one that can.."
Cripe. Find somebody that can love you.
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What The Hay
First of all, I never made such a claim like that and you know it. I just don't believe the true God needs your help that's all, because he is the teacher who leads us into all truth. That is my claim and I am sticking to it. It's not you, Doctor Wordwolf. It's not me, Dr. Wierwille, LCM, or anybody else inside or outside TWI. It is the holy spirit that leads us into all truth - so who in the he** do you think you are? About all I am conviced of (so far) is your only out to prove to everybody your really some great theologan by exposing all the evils that men do. But then, your not the only one doing it. Well ... good luck to both of you.
Ok then, show us all the evil. Use your great puffed up knowledge of the scriptures to show us all the evil there. Show us from your knowledge and working of the scriptures all the evil - all the devils and the demons - how their leader has a devil spirit of mongoose working in them!! Funny, I was at their fellowship and their leader, their doctor of theology just did that and he proved from the scriptures how you have a devil spirit of python working in you! (Sound familiar to anyone?)
About the only thing I agree with you on from your last post is: knowledge puffs up. We just disagree on the type of knowedge though - knowing someone after the flesh or after the spirit. Knowing someone after the flesh always becomes a fight. It always seems to become a fight between mongoose and snake doesn't it? Just another denominational split. It's just, "Riki-Tiki-Tavi" one more time with everybody all the time! "When I was a young man, I believed there were organizations that would kill my snakes for me, i.e. the church, i.e. the government, i.e. the school. But when I got a little older, I learned I had to kill them myself." I believe that's a line from an old 1970's song by: Donovan - Riki-Tiki-Tavi. (Giving credit where credit is due so somebody here won't accuse me of plagarizing Donovan.)
When I grew up spiritually I realized: "I don't need no DOCTOR - especially a doctor of theology!" You'll realize it too when you start to grow up spiritually and start listening to the holy spirit on the inside of you. That's right. I don't need someone to come around to kill my snakes for me. I have the holy spirit on the inside to do that. So do you if your a born again Christian. Don't let some foolheaded "doctor of theology" come along and tell you that you need them and their "knowledge of the scriptures" to expose the evils of men. Do you really think they are out to destroy the evils of mankind? They're just blowing smoke up your - well, you know. Truthfully I wouldn't even call it smoke. It's more like hot air. Smoke has a bit more substance to it than their doctrines and theologies. I've already been there, done that, and got their lousy t-shirt. Maybe you got one to. And their old t-shirt is worn out and full of holes - and your's certainly is not in any bit better shape. Mongoose or Snake - which one of those lousy t-shirts do you want? NO THANK YOU. You can keep your lousy t-shirt! I threw that ol' t-shirt out some time ago.
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Raf
WTH,
I wish to congratulate you on your independence of thought and refusal to cave in to the pressure of groupthink.
In fact, if you had applied those qualities during your time in TWI, perhaps you wouldn't be so dismissive of valid criticisms of VPW and TWI today.
Oh well, someday, when you grow up and mature a little, you'll see the light.
Until then,
Raf
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Ham
Soooo Mike. Where are we with this? Where are the results? Enquiring minds want to know.. still.
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