Originally posted by Mike: (on page 5 of this thread:
Can Dr do that? Can he change the common definition of "Bible" from the hotel-room-placed Gideon to the the 'book and magazine form" of PFAL ??? NO! Of course not! ...but God can...
In summary:
1942: Dr's only rule was the set of spiritual revelations God promised and gave him and him alone.
1985: Our only rule is the is the set of physical PFAL writings comprising the NEW Bible from God.
I've been wanting to get this posted for two full years now. Thank you Linda Z for pulling it out of me.
.
Hmmm. . . . You've been wanting for two full years to say PFAL is the NEW Bible from God.
Yet you say:
quote:
HCW,
I don't believe I've ever said that PFAL writings REPLACE the ancient scriptures.
To use just that one word "replace" is to misrepresent me. You listened to what others said I said, and not what I actually wrote.
Actually I didn't lsten to anything but what YOU wrote, Mike.
Hmmm... an apparent contradiction....
To quote Vp, "SOMEbody's GOT to be a liar."
BUT Both statements were YOUR's Mike.
Evidently you're lying OR you've forgotten what YOU've written. Quite the "Catch 22."
If you say you're NOT lying... you MUST admit that you didn't recall that you DID and have repeatedly said that PFAL is a replacement for the Bible. Not only have you said it, You've also DESIRED to say it for more than 2 years now.
IF you DID, in fact, recall that you wrote about PFAL being the NEW Bible (as in replacement) Bible, then you MUST admit that you LIED when you said you don't THINK you've ever said that.
But you won't will you? You won't do either. You will simply continue to travel back and forward in time and change what you said THEN to what you are saying NOW.
I AM learning from you Mike. Here's what I've learned how to do.
"I didn't say then what YOU thought you read. For if you had read what you read with the proper attitude of meekness, fully utilizing your new set of tools from Vp's God-breathed gift of God's blessing to us all, called PFAL; said utilization would have certainly shown you how what you thought you read then IS really what I'm saying to you now."
How's that Raf? I really had to turn off my brain to get to that level of "Mikedness." Or is it "Mik-roprosity?"
I dunno- I would still like to see the "you're my fresh meat because I gave you da verd" statement given some attention. I think that "we gave you the word, now you are OUR property"- unless you can read "you should know that you owe us your life" to be any different- to be either neither Godly, Biblical, or even rational for that matter. Forget hidden meanings, "he meant what he said and he said what he meant".
Really- that one is printed right in my intermediate class sylabus. Somehow it missed the Almighty during the editing process, I suppose.
What about Psalm 95? Ps 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
If that is not enough: Ps 24:1 The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
And even if that is not enough- don't like the old testament? How about a nice general (to the church) writing-
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
"Somebody's got to be a liar".
Scratch one on the "biblical" support.
How about Godly?
I Peter5:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Not for filthy lucre- I guess all the "back rubs" in the motor coach, along with all the money, motorcycles, bribes, etc. don't qualify.
Not to mention, "you owe me, big time".
Strike two.
How about, rational? Is this a rational request? I may not be qualified to answer, but others surely can. "I helped you out, see, I read you a little bible, and now you owe me everything". Good grief. I would say, bordering on the insane- in my opinion.
Here we have not only a factual error- but plain downright meanness, manipulation and evil. My God, the man not only accepted filthy lucre, he DEMANDED it.
THEN there is the use of "qualifier" words and CYA phrases like, "I don't THINK I wrote..."
Gee whiz Mike. If you're gonna be bold enough to take a one man stand on this, take a fricken STAND, man.
Like this:
You, Mike, are an absolute liar. You don't "know" any of Vp's editors. You've been rejected by every one of them you've contacted. You don't even give ONE damn, really, about this whole "God-breathed PFAL" thing. You are only using it as a means to get us to talk to you. You are afraid that if you were to give up this "debate" nobody would talk to you.
You are certain that giving up the debate would remove you from the preeminent position you feel you hold by having a number of widely respected GS posters address you personally on a regular basis.
You are more concerned with keeping the debate going than you are with "winning" it. You fear in your heart is that "stopping the madness" will cause you to fade back into obsurity. You are fueled to continue by your endless desire for simple contact with other human beings which you feel you have been unfairly deprived of (to the point where you consider it a type of abuse).
I guess you've got some more homework to do now, huh?
No wonder they don't want us "old geezers" around anymore. One statement like that out of them, and at least twenty of us would jump them like there's no tomorrow, heh heh.
I dunno- call me an unbeliever, a doubter, a skeptic- whatever.
But- where is da beef? Where are the results?
... Where are the results then?"
"sorry, results not guaranteed. Even if they were guaranteed."
Remarkable how you mentioned "where are the results" twice, but never mentioned even once what should and ought to be more important than any results. (Matthew 6:33) I can't say with certainty all things will be subtracted from someone who seeks anything else first. I do know (from Gods Word) if one's focus is always fixed on obtaining results, they are certainly missing something that is by far much more important.
quote:
More working required, more labor- more and more and more and more.
Sounds like nothing but labor wrought in vain, which indeed it is. Psalms 127:1 "Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it..."
That's the way it goes with someone who seeks something else first contrary to Matthew 6:33 - it's nothing but labour and work wrought in vain. It is easier being a worker with God rather than for God. That was the problem many people ran into during their tenure in TWI. Results are guaranteed, but one shouldn't go blaming God for their narrow focus and shortsightedness because that's all they really desired first from the start - RESULTS! (I'd tell you where you can stick em too, but there's no reason to get that vulgar).
That speaks volumes to me as to where your heart is at - - in a very good place.
What you said reminded me of what I personally felt was THE most shocking thing I learned about being "a minister."
I've rarely shared this incident that happened to me, and NEVER shared it publickly. I'm feeling, in my spirit, however than now is the time to do it.
Hear me out on this one, OK? I think it has relevance both to your statements above AND this whole "debate." At least I can see how it might fit.
Let me start by saying that when I heard of the things you mentioned in terms of "ownership" of people in the flock because "the ministry" taught them "the word." Personally, at least on the surface, I didn't see it that way.
I thought I was seeing "family." I thought I was seeing reverence to "the man who fathered us in the word" similarly to who I view elders in my "blood family." In my family we give great respect upward across generational lines. Basically any person in a generation "above" your own deserves a distinct level of deference and respect FIRST, JUST because of WHAT they are, then WHO.
I realize now, however, that MY personal POV caused me to gloss over what I actually saw that I was seeing then. (Does that make sense?)
Enough bush beating....
The shocking thing happened one night on my interim year in the Corps. As a WOW family coordinator I did a LOT of witnessing, twig leadin', teaching, and ministering to a bunch of folks. My WOW family would frequent some of the local haunts & we'd go dancing a good bit.
There was one place in particular where I had been witnessing to "THE hot chick." Every place has at least one, the girl(s) who guys stand at the edge of the dance floor & salivate over while she dances with whomever they WISH they were.
Since I was "the Corps guy" my WOW's (the family was all guys) would playfully tease me, "I bet you can't get HER "in the Word." .... Stuff like that. I won their respect as well as the rest of the local guys who were all afraid to approach said hot chick when a group of guys called me out, like.
"Go dance with her, she wants you." Macho BS stuff like that. After being "shot down & burning in flames" on a few occasions. I did get to actually witness to her and talk to her. After w hile we became acquaintences and I'd dance with her when she was there & we came, etc.
She was really HOT, I must admit. I wasn't about all that, tempted, you better believe, but I was trying to be the good example to my guys.
One night she asked me for a ride home after the club & as we were driving she said, "Pull into that parking lot over there." I did.
She then whipped her loose fitting blouse up over her head, exposing her really hot bare boobies and looked me right in the eye, hotly. She had my undivided, (atten-HUT!!!) attention, to say the least!
"What are you DOING?!!!" was the only thing I could choke out as the blood drained from my brain.
"Getting more comfortable. We're going to your house, Right?" SHe was working on scooting out of her jeans, as she had even brough an overnight bag with a sexy nightgown and change of clothes.
The kicker is this. The point of this story is.... After I was able to convince her that she should put her shirt back on (it was a BIT of a distraction duncha know?) I asked her WHY was she so ready to throw herself at me like that.
My shock came when she said, "You were SO nice to me. You taught me some things I really needed. I was just trying to say thank you in the best way I knew how."
My warped sense of humor kicked in as I thought, "seeing those boobies was QUITE a TREAT!"
No. I didn't SAY that to her. I told her how she had so much more to offer and that she should see herself as more than a thing to have sex with, etc.
The central point is that I was shocked by how pervasive it was that people would think that a way to say thanks for the word was to "give up the bootie."
I'm now thinking that Vw, et. al saw this long before I & actually took a proactive advantage of it even to the point of placing subliminal messages in the teachings targeting people who had any kind of tendanceies in that direction.
Unfortunately so many who leaned that way (on the victim side) were actual victims in their lives outside TWI.
VP & company did PRECISELY the same thing to then as he talked about in PFAL concerning the drunk who told him,
"I came here to get OUT of what I'm into, all you did is drive me down further into it."
There is a big difference between vulgar and honest. Where are the results? If it (PFAL) is what it claims to be, the lack therof speaks volumes.
Yes, I pray- and read the bible- and I do get results. Tangible, real, results. Few specific thanks to PFAL- don't owe my whole life to some blood sucking organization.
Results, results- first they are guaranteed, and when you sign on the line, magically, they dissappear. "Experiences are not normative, it is the word of God that is truth- etc. etc."
I have a right to call anybody on this. If it is so great, show me what it is doing for your life, other that turning you into a bigot or religious zealot. If that's all it does, you won't get me in it- you can have it.
Put up or shut up. Either there are results, or there are not.
HCW- I had similar experiences when I was a WOW. Now, I am just a scruffy looking rascal, but then, well , maybe some of the charisma rubbed off on me. Wouldn't know it now- at least two occasions I turned them down.
Looking back, life probably would a heck of a lot worse if I didn't.
Please don't be so sure you'll regret this... PLEASE?
I chose your post to respond to because it showed the most heart, and because I only have the time and energy to do one post this morning. Most of the other posts this past 24 hours I haven't even had time to fully read. I don't know if you've ever had many posters piling on you with intense disagreements, many of them vastly differing in details, and all trying to make you look as foolish as possible. As often as it has happened to me, I still find it difficult to deal with. I may have also chosen your post because knowing that I am responding to a lady helps me hold back the urge to lash out as harshly as I sense some of the men here are doing with their testosterone flexing against me.
You wrote: "Mike, re-read your first paragraph. IF IT WERE TO REPLACE THEM....That's kind of wild don't you think? To even think it is way to liberal for a Bible believer IMO."
I actually agree with you here. It is due to a misunderstanding that you had the reaction you describe here. Please let me explain.
I have been falsely accused on MANY occasions here of saying that I believe "PFAL replaces the Bible." Here when I use the the word "Bible" I mean the the common everyday understanding of that word: the ancient scriptures fairly accurately translated into English.
You may have heard this accusation repeated so many times that you THINK you remember me actually saying that. I did not.
I did say something that had those words in it, but there were other words there with them along with a context, and that whole set of words and ideas are NOT repeated often here by my accusers, because if they did, their accusations would not have the sensational impact they do.
The reason I recently used a phrase like the one you objected to ("If PFAL were to replace the Bible...") was to construct a part of my DENIAL that I believe PFAL replaces the Bible. I simply repeated the accusation against me to try and show that it is an illogical accusation.
Please let me repeat this denial, putting it in slightly different words.
Let's say some strange and odd person (not me!) were to think that PFAL replaced the Bible. Ok, now let's watch that person open up the PFAL book and start reading it with comprehension and meek believing. It wouldn't take long before that person started getting the idea from that PFAL book that the KJV Bible was a WONDERFUL book to get to know. The PFAL book promotes the Bible like no other book I've ever seen! That strange and odd person would very soon change his mind about PFAL replacing the Bible. The PFAL book would inspire this poor fellow to do just the opposite of throwing away his KJV, and instead cherish it and want to get to know it through and through.
THAT'S what I meant by my original statement you objected to: "If it WERE to replace them [scriptures], it would immediately re-instate them and their importance in the eyes of any reader."
I didn't REALLY mean that it was possible for PFAL to replace the Bible. I was just talking about someone who might THINK it does.
I know you haven't read much of my long posts, and on a thread like this you are exposed to many others ganging up on me and twisting what I do say and believe for their own egotistical benefits.
Men ares sometimes like dogs or wolves and enjoy a group hunt. This instinctual behavior can be good at times, but here they are not being honest in the way they represent me. They quote me out of context and look for nuances in my words they can use against me. They ignore the heart I aam trying to communicate. Trying to understand me is the LAST thing they want to do. Many of them are caught up in a zeal to protect those they think are innocent and vulnerable, which is admirable if accurate, but in this case they are dead wrong.
If you would like to discuss any more of these issues with me here or by PT I'd be happy to accommodate you.
***
You also wrote: "If God placed His Word above His name then how could He place the possiblity of anything being over that? PFAL was good for my life, I've never stated the opposite here but dang man! it is not above God or His Word. Not for a southern second!"
Again I have great agreement with you here.
HOWEVER, if it is the case that God actually did give Dr a series of revelations (the manifestation of word of knowledge) over a 42 year span, AND He guided him to put these revelations into written form (word of wisdom) THEN we have to do some more thinking.
For God do what I just described is NOT forbidden. God is allowed to talk to people, and He is allowed to tell them to put His message into written form. We are not generally aware of God doing this in the past 2000 years, but it's not forbidden.
If God actually did do this with Dr, THEN those revelations would be PART of God's Word too. They wouldn't be ABOVE God, though. They would be a PART of God's Word.
If God did not give Dr such an abundance of revelations, then I am dead wrong in all my posting here.
In the early 1970's many of us grads thought that God DID give him lots of revelation, and in doing this we found that at times God would give us revelations too. We got talked out of this, though, and the signs miracles and wonders are now much less plentiful, compared to the 1970's. We resorted to the more "normal" traditional idea that God is forbidden to add to His own Bible.
The closing lines of the Book of Revelation (as they are translated in the KJV) make it look like God is forbidden to add to his own written words. I do not read that verse like it is traditionally believed. I know that God forbids PEOPLE from adding to His written Word, but He Himself can add to it all He wants. He did so in Jeremiah 36 if you care to see an example of this.
***
Lastly you wrote: "And where in the Bible do you back up believing in a man's work over that of Jesus Christ, while doing His Father's will (freely)?"
I could never back up an idea like that, nor would I even try to think it.
There were many men in old times who received revelations from God and who then put them into written form. The work done by these men NEVER superceded the work that Jesus Christ did.
All of the Biblical writers did work that helped us, but none of them out did Jesus Christ's work.
I do NOT believe that Dr did anything coming close to what Jesus Christ did. All Dr did was hear God's revelation and pass it on. That in itself involved SOME work, but nowhere near the work that Jesus did of BECOMMING the Word and DOING it to the uttermost. Dr lamented that he had failed to become the man he knew to be. Jesus Christ DID become the man he knew to be, and so far he's the ONLY man to do that. The workload Jesus Christ accomplished dwarfs all other men's works. I believe in Jesus Christ because of the written work done by the spokesmen Jesus Christ appointed to tell me about him.
***
CattyKathy, I hope this was not a regrettable experience for you.
I am very disinclined to argue lately with the hord who hound me here, but I would love to discuss any other impressions you have of me. Maybe they are mis-impressions like this one and we can discuss some deep and pleasant things.
A long time ago, I promised myself I'd never get involved in one of the nice civilized brawls.. what hoppened? - heh heh. I think this one must of hit me just right..
Cripe- whether or not you get results from it does not affect my spirituality. Personally, I don't need to see the dead walk to be convinced that there is a God, or that we've been redeemed by His son, for that matter.
But really, what is all of this "mastering of da class" doing for you? Just some nebulous, "well, I'm just so blessed today.." "I can finally see, I am blessed" or is it really tangible? Do you see real miracles, aside the conventional one when you happen to be able to pull up in your favorite parking spot? You may not read my intent- I am not mad, angry, etc.- just would like to know. What good has it, or is it doing?
What did PFAL do for me? I learned more in twig- at least more that was really useful. How to pray, what kind of things God might have a voice in about what to pray for- a few other things.
With that class, I found myself more and more trying to do the Lord's job. Tried figuring out every detail before taking a single step. Checking every stinking little key trying to determine if it was really the Lord or not. "God expects you to know everything you can know by your five senses". Revelation turned into sense-knowledge analysis. Just doing more and more of God's job. Trying to figure out if it was Word of Knowledge, or Word of Wisdom- or was it something else.. forever analyzing it to death.
Ever wonder why he put all that stuff about the manifestations in only three (technically speaking at least) chapters in the bible, and short ones at that? Maybe it's not such the big deal it's cracked up to be. Maybe it's just not as hard as you think. Heck, Samuel's "advanced class" lasted only about a verse and a half.
I find it interesting that the vast majority of the instructions in Corinthians regards PROPHECY- i.e., telling people what to do. Boiled down from all of the exhortation/comfort/forthtelling/foretelling definitions, that really is what it comes down to.
What about all of those keys- sixteen plus. "God expects you to know what you can know by your five senses" then the heavy revy can kick in, supposedly.
Ever think that your sense knowledge reliance and analysis just might be WRONG? Sure was for me, more than once. What in the world would God expect you to know THAT for? My God is a heck of a lot bigger, and far more generous. Labeling revelation given about something you already "know" being phenomenal is ridiculous. What you "know" is usually wrong.
Now, through the "help" of your "overseer", you can be a prevailing, schedule the life of the devil out of your daily routine believer. That would have driven me nuts, even then.
More work, work work work. No more, at least for me.
Raf, I actually take that as a compliment.. at least finally there is one horde I can "belong" to, heh heh..
As to P.F.A.L.- what kind of "results" did I see from it?
What I observed: not always- but normally- folks were given the apparent "magic keys" to spiritual success. Fine and wonderful- what did that produce? An ARMY of committed-to-the-accuracy-of-the-word zealots (myself included, at times) who were expertly groomed and taught how to PRETEND they had revelation. Revelation about everything. Why your job stunk. Why you were sick. Why your pet died. Why you should go in the corps, that you should go WOW, or increase the amount you were giving. Forget that they were a young, snot nose, wet behind the ears but somehow barely stayed awake during parts of the advanced class. But they were GRADS! And if you were a grad, you had the stamp of approval.
Of course things got much, much worse.
Corpse telling people to beat the he** out of their kid. Telling them that their spouse was possessed. Telling them... on and on.
Pretending they had the gift of healing and telling the victim to throw away their medicine. Yeah, I know doc vic's objection to this- "I'd make sure I really had revelation"- well, that's what they thought. Oh well, mistakes can be buried. And it HAS happened.
Pretending to have a ministry. Yes, pretending- look at old Loy. Never had one. If he did, he threw it away long ago, in the beginning.
There are exceptions, but that is the legacy of PFAL.
I think the demand of proof of claims not to be at all vulgar or profane, especially in light of the junk most of us have gone through. If they hold all the cards, they should joyfully play them.
Prophets are CALLED, not man or self-MADE. Never. Quit stinkin pretending you're something you're not. PFAL is not God. You cannot believe hard enough to be made a prophet, or apostle, or etc.. no amount of work, no amount of effort- all you'll get is a hernia, or embarassed or worse.
You can't study hard enough either. Won't happen. Sit back, relax, say, "It's OK, I'm not a prophet, I'm not a MOG.. things will be OK anyway, the sun will still rise tomorrow".
Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ really oughta be enough. What more could you want?
Another thought- "though you may not have the MINISTRY of a prophet, you can believe to carry out the FUNCTION of a prophet"
Pure, absolute, balderdash. Nothing less. Only God almighty can energize the ministry or function of a prophet. But somehow, with the magic of believing or some such nonsense, and da accuracy of PFAL you yourself can somehow pull it off.
All I can say is, go ahead, try it. Pretend you've "got it". I know at least one guy that walked in the funeral parlor and tried. The dang corpse just wouldn't cooperate properly, you know..
Still not convinced? Go ahead- try it.
I think I'll wait to see what it does to you before I try it. No results? I wouldn't blame God.
If God actually did do this with Dr, THEN those revelations would be PART of God's Word too. They wouldn't be ABOVE God, though. They would be a PART of God's Word.
NO. They would not become a part of God's word, they would be some things that God told one of his children on a given day that might be of benefit to others of his children.
The problem I see with your POV on this topic is how you consistently ignore the personal, Fatherly, relationship God has with each and every one of his children. You confuse and then blur the line between things God tells us and TERM them, "revelation" and "God-Breathed."
All of your years of study have not yet allowed you to discern the simplicity that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.
You also ignore the "unalterable truths" you speak so often of. "Of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." It is an unalterable truth that you can tell what one thinks by what he does. In other words, people DO what they WANT to do.
IF you truly WANTED us to get "the greatness of PFAL"
AND...
You truly felt you "have" it, you would tirelessly teach THAT. Instead you IGNORE more unalterable truth while you continue an argument that even should you win, it is pointless.
Ok. Mike. PFAL is God-Breathed. You win.
WHAT has changed? You are SO blind to the fact that WHERE something came from, or WHO it came out of has NOTHING to do with WHAT it IS! PFAL - - it IS what is IS what it IS, especially IF God made it that way.
You discredit the very thing you say is so near and dear to your heart. Had you ACTUALLY mastered the PFAL materials, you would certainly remember that some of the abundance of scripture in the materials says the following of people who were "ganging up - piling on" those who were boldly and consistently bearing God's truth to other who didn't want to hear it.
PFAL taught ME how apostles were called on the carpet and a wise person said, "Think about what you're doing to these men, LEAVE THEM ALONE... because if what they are saying is of God, you CANNOT fight against it. Fighting agains God almighty is futile."
I've engaged you in this debate to this point Mike, to give you an opportunity to SHOW - - ILLUSTRATE your mastery of PFAL. I wanted to see if you would reflect the HEART Vpw's feebile voice reflected in his, as you put it, last lost teaching.
By your fruit, people SHALL know you (yet another of those pesky "unalterable" truths). The "fruit" i.e. the RESULTS your life shows people indicates who and what you really are.
Your response over years is consistent. I don't need to repeat it. It is crystal clear to all who read this thread.
THAT has been my question since the beginning. What is the outcome, the benefit, the meaning, the reason, the purpose, the result of Mike's doctrine? He's a salesman without a product, peddling bottled air. Other than whatever smug satisfaction people get from thinking they are right, what else is there? It's all ego, as far as I can tell. There is no "abundant life" (or even the promise of one) at the end of it all.
What is the outcome, the benefit, the meaning, the reason, the purpose, the result of Mike's doctrine? He's a salesman without a product, peddling bottled air. Other than whatever smug satisfaction people get from thinking they are right, what else is there? It's all ego, as far as I can tell.
I'm thinking it may be a "revenge of the nerd" thing. Apparently there is no end.
No, it's not ego. I subject my ego to a pounding here. Why? It's for the VERY few who have heard or are hearing to a small degree. It's true that I have not yet mastered PFAL. I seek companions to master it with me, and in this sense I have been successful.
HCW, this ties in with your last post too. If my posting were a set of e-mails with just one person, or just the relatively few active posters who engage me, then I'd be crazy to have continued it for two full years and 4000 posts.
But it's not just a few active posters that comprise my reasons for posting. This forum is not a simple exchange between the posters. There are many who are simply reading along silently. They may be seeing my points, or maybe will see them tomorrow. A year after I quit posting some one person may come along and see my message. This is a far more complex situation of me witnessing to a few people, they reject my message, and then I'm obligated to move on.
An even farther removed, yet still valid reason for me to post in the face of seemingly total opposition is that I am operating the principle of releasing what I am learning. Not only that, but the atmosphere of opposition demands great thinking through of every sentence I post, knowing that there is a hord ready to pounce on each sentence. It's a little like wearing training weights while jogging. When I get to a more receptive audience I will have thought through all the angles due to the workout I get here.
But lately, my amount of avaliable time is low, and the number of challenging points thrown at me is high. Otherwise I'd love to deal with each and every point made.
HCW, I noticed that you are on to something interesting in the opening lines of your latest post. It looks like we may be revolving around the same ideas, but using slightly different words to describe those ideas. I must leave now, but I'll return to study your recent post more later. If you feel like expanding on those opening paragraphs then PLEASE DO.
More specifically it's these paragraphs that I find intriguing:
"NO. They would not become a part of God's word, they would be some things that God told one of his children on a given day that might be of benefit to others of his children.
"The problem I see with your POV on this topic is how you consistently ignore the personal, Fatherly, relationship God has with each and every one of his children. You confuse and then blur the line between things God tells us and TERM them, 'revelation' and 'God-Breathed.'"
But lately, my amount of avaliable time is low, and the number of challenging points thrown at me is high. Otherwise I'd love to deal with each and every point made.
He has been saying the same exact thing for two years.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
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Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
HCW
Hmmm. . . . You've been wanting for two full years to say PFAL is the NEW Bible from God.
Yet you say:
Actually I didn't lsten to anything but what YOU wrote, Mike.
Hmmm... an apparent contradiction....
To quote Vp, "SOMEbody's GOT to be a liar."
BUT Both statements were YOUR's Mike.
Evidently you're lying OR you've forgotten what YOU've written. Quite the "Catch 22."
If you say you're NOT lying... you MUST admit that you didn't recall that you DID and have repeatedly said that PFAL is a replacement for the Bible. Not only have you said it, You've also DESIRED to say it for more than 2 years now.
IF you DID, in fact, recall that you wrote about PFAL being the NEW Bible (as in replacement) Bible, then you MUST admit that you LIED when you said you don't THINK you've ever said that.
But you won't will you? You won't do either. You will simply continue to travel back and forward in time and change what you said THEN to what you are saying NOW.
I AM learning from you Mike. Here's what I've learned how to do.
"I didn't say then what YOU thought you read. For if you had read what you read with the proper attitude of meekness, fully utilizing your new set of tools from Vp's God-breathed gift of God's blessing to us all, called PFAL; said utilization would have certainly shown you how what you thought you read then IS really what I'm saying to you now."
How's that Raf? I really had to turn off my brain to get to that level of "Mikedness." Or is it "Mik-roprosity?"
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Ham
I dunno- I would still like to see the "you're my fresh meat because I gave you da verd" statement given some attention. I think that "we gave you the word, now you are OUR property"- unless you can read "you should know that you owe us your life" to be any different- to be either neither Godly, Biblical, or even rational for that matter. Forget hidden meanings, "he meant what he said and he said what he meant".
Really- that one is printed right in my intermediate class sylabus. Somehow it missed the Almighty during the editing process, I suppose.
What about Psalm 95? Ps 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand.
If that is not enough: Ps 24:1 The earth is the LORD’S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
And even if that is not enough- don't like the old testament? How about a nice general (to the church) writing-
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
"Somebody's got to be a liar".
Scratch one on the "biblical" support.
How about Godly?
I Peter5:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Not for filthy lucre- I guess all the "back rubs" in the motor coach, along with all the money, motorcycles, bribes, etc. don't qualify.
Not to mention, "you owe me, big time".
Strike two.
How about, rational? Is this a rational request? I may not be qualified to answer, but others surely can. "I helped you out, see, I read you a little bible, and now you owe me everything". Good grief. I would say, bordering on the insane- in my opinion.
Here we have not only a factual error- but plain downright meanness, manipulation and evil. My God, the man not only accepted filthy lucre, he DEMANDED it.
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HCW
THEN there is the use of "qualifier" words and CYA phrases like, "I don't THINK I wrote..."
Gee whiz Mike. If you're gonna be bold enough to take a one man stand on this, take a fricken STAND, man.
Like this:
You, Mike, are an absolute liar. You don't "know" any of Vp's editors. You've been rejected by every one of them you've contacted. You don't even give ONE damn, really, about this whole "God-breathed PFAL" thing. You are only using it as a means to get us to talk to you. You are afraid that if you were to give up this "debate" nobody would talk to you.
You are certain that giving up the debate would remove you from the preeminent position you feel you hold by having a number of widely respected GS posters address you personally on a regular basis.
You are more concerned with keeping the debate going than you are with "winning" it. You fear in your heart is that "stopping the madness" will cause you to fade back into obsurity. You are fueled to continue by your endless desire for simple contact with other human beings which you feel you have been unfairly deprived of (to the point where you consider it a type of abuse).
I guess you've got some more homework to do now, huh?
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Ham
All this, and his little Martindale too.
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Ham
No wonder they don't want us "old geezers" around anymore. One statement like that out of them, and at least twenty of us would jump them like there's no tomorrow, heh heh.
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What The Hay
Remarkable how you mentioned "where are the results" twice, but never mentioned even once what should and ought to be more important than any results. (Matthew 6:33) I can't say with certainty all things will be subtracted from someone who seeks anything else first. I do know (from Gods Word) if one's focus is always fixed on obtaining results, they are certainly missing something that is by far much more important.
Sounds like nothing but labor wrought in vain, which indeed it is. Psalms 127:1 "Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it..."That's the way it goes with someone who seeks something else first contrary to Matthew 6:33 - it's nothing but labour and work wrought in vain. It is easier being a worker with God rather than for God. That was the problem many people ran into during their tenure in TWI. Results are guaranteed, but one shouldn't go blaming God for their narrow focus and shortsightedness because that's all they really desired first from the start - RESULTS! (I'd tell you where you can stick em too, but there's no reason to get that vulgar).
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HCW
Mr. Hammeroni:
I see you graciously stopped at strike 2.
That speaks volumes to me as to where your heart is at - - in a very good place.
What you said reminded me of what I personally felt was THE most shocking thing I learned about being "a minister."
I've rarely shared this incident that happened to me, and NEVER shared it publickly. I'm feeling, in my spirit, however than now is the time to do it.
Hear me out on this one, OK? I think it has relevance both to your statements above AND this whole "debate." At least I can see how it might fit.
Let me start by saying that when I heard of the things you mentioned in terms of "ownership" of people in the flock because "the ministry" taught them "the word." Personally, at least on the surface, I didn't see it that way.
I thought I was seeing "family." I thought I was seeing reverence to "the man who fathered us in the word" similarly to who I view elders in my "blood family." In my family we give great respect upward across generational lines. Basically any person in a generation "above" your own deserves a distinct level of deference and respect FIRST, JUST because of WHAT they are, then WHO.
I realize now, however, that MY personal POV caused me to gloss over what I actually saw that I was seeing then. (Does that make sense?)
Enough bush beating....
The shocking thing happened one night on my interim year in the Corps. As a WOW family coordinator I did a LOT of witnessing, twig leadin', teaching, and ministering to a bunch of folks. My WOW family would frequent some of the local haunts & we'd go dancing a good bit.
There was one place in particular where I had been witnessing to "THE hot chick." Every place has at least one, the girl(s) who guys stand at the edge of the dance floor & salivate over while she dances with whomever they WISH they were.
Since I was "the Corps guy" my WOW's (the family was all guys) would playfully tease me, "I bet you can't get HER "in the Word." .... Stuff like that. I won their respect as well as the rest of the local guys who were all afraid to approach said hot chick when a group of guys called me out, like.
"Go dance with her, she wants you." Macho BS stuff like that. After being "shot down & burning in flames" on a few occasions. I did get to actually witness to her and talk to her. After w hile we became acquaintences and I'd dance with her when she was there & we came, etc.
She was really HOT, I must admit. I wasn't about all that, tempted, you better believe, but I was trying to be the good example to my guys.
One night she asked me for a ride home after the club & as we were driving she said, "Pull into that parking lot over there." I did.
She then whipped her loose fitting blouse up over her head, exposing her really hot bare boobies and looked me right in the eye, hotly. She had my undivided, (atten-HUT!!!) attention, to say the least!
"What are you DOING?!!!" was the only thing I could choke out as the blood drained from my brain.
"Getting more comfortable. We're going to your house, Right?" SHe was working on scooting out of her jeans, as she had even brough an overnight bag with a sexy nightgown and change of clothes.
The kicker is this. The point of this story is.... After I was able to convince her that she should put her shirt back on (it was a BIT of a distraction duncha know?) I asked her WHY was she so ready to throw herself at me like that.
My shock came when she said, "You were SO nice to me. You taught me some things I really needed. I was just trying to say thank you in the best way I knew how."
My warped sense of humor kicked in as I thought, "seeing those boobies was QUITE a TREAT!"
No. I didn't SAY that to her. I told her how she had so much more to offer and that she should see herself as more than a thing to have sex with, etc.
The central point is that I was shocked by how pervasive it was that people would think that a way to say thanks for the word was to "give up the bootie."
I'm now thinking that Vw, et. al saw this long before I & actually took a proactive advantage of it even to the point of placing subliminal messages in the teachings targeting people who had any kind of tendanceies in that direction.
Unfortunately so many who leaned that way (on the victim side) were actual victims in their lives outside TWI.
VP & company did PRECISELY the same thing to then as he talked about in PFAL concerning the drunk who told him,
"I came here to get OUT of what I'm into, all you did is drive me down further into it."
Strike three.
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Ham
There is a big difference between vulgar and honest. Where are the results? If it (PFAL) is what it claims to be, the lack therof speaks volumes.
Yes, I pray- and read the bible- and I do get results. Tangible, real, results. Few specific thanks to PFAL- don't owe my whole life to some blood sucking organization.
Results, results- first they are guaranteed, and when you sign on the line, magically, they dissappear. "Experiences are not normative, it is the word of God that is truth- etc. etc."
I have a right to call anybody on this. If it is so great, show me what it is doing for your life, other that turning you into a bigot or religious zealot. If that's all it does, you won't get me in it- you can have it.
Put up or shut up. Either there are results, or there are not.
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alfakat
it wouldn't really be a thread without some Grade A obfuscation from waddahayseed...thanks for comin through, big fella...
--> 
--> 
:(-->
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Ham
HCW- I had similar experiences when I was a WOW. Now, I am just a scruffy looking rascal, but then, well , maybe some of the charisma rubbed off on me. Wouldn't know it now- at least two occasions I turned them down.
Looking back, life probably would a heck of a lot worse if I didn't.
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Mike
ChattyKathy,
You wrote: "I know I'll regret this but....."
Please don't be so sure you'll regret this... PLEASE?
I chose your post to respond to because it showed the most heart, and because I only have the time and energy to do one post this morning. Most of the other posts this past 24 hours I haven't even had time to fully read. I don't know if you've ever had many posters piling on you with intense disagreements, many of them vastly differing in details, and all trying to make you look as foolish as possible. As often as it has happened to me, I still find it difficult to deal with. I may have also chosen your post because knowing that I am responding to a lady helps me hold back the urge to lash out as harshly as I sense some of the men here are doing with their testosterone flexing against me.
You wrote: "Mike, re-read your first paragraph. IF IT WERE TO REPLACE THEM....That's kind of wild don't you think? To even think it is way to liberal for a Bible believer IMO."
I actually agree with you here. It is due to a misunderstanding that you had the reaction you describe here. Please let me explain.
I have been falsely accused on MANY occasions here of saying that I believe "PFAL replaces the Bible." Here when I use the the word "Bible" I mean the the common everyday understanding of that word: the ancient scriptures fairly accurately translated into English.
You may have heard this accusation repeated so many times that you THINK you remember me actually saying that. I did not.
I did say something that had those words in it, but there were other words there with them along with a context, and that whole set of words and ideas are NOT repeated often here by my accusers, because if they did, their accusations would not have the sensational impact they do.
The reason I recently used a phrase like the one you objected to ("If PFAL were to replace the Bible...") was to construct a part of my DENIAL that I believe PFAL replaces the Bible. I simply repeated the accusation against me to try and show that it is an illogical accusation.
Please let me repeat this denial, putting it in slightly different words.
Let's say some strange and odd person (not me!) were to think that PFAL replaced the Bible. Ok, now let's watch that person open up the PFAL book and start reading it with comprehension and meek believing. It wouldn't take long before that person started getting the idea from that PFAL book that the KJV Bible was a WONDERFUL book to get to know. The PFAL book promotes the Bible like no other book I've ever seen! That strange and odd person would very soon change his mind about PFAL replacing the Bible. The PFAL book would inspire this poor fellow to do just the opposite of throwing away his KJV, and instead cherish it and want to get to know it through and through.
THAT'S what I meant by my original statement you objected to: "If it WERE to replace them [scriptures], it would immediately re-instate them and their importance in the eyes of any reader."
I didn't REALLY mean that it was possible for PFAL to replace the Bible. I was just talking about someone who might THINK it does.
I know you haven't read much of my long posts, and on a thread like this you are exposed to many others ganging up on me and twisting what I do say and believe for their own egotistical benefits.
Men ares sometimes like dogs or wolves and enjoy a group hunt. This instinctual behavior can be good at times, but here they are not being honest in the way they represent me. They quote me out of context and look for nuances in my words they can use against me. They ignore the heart I aam trying to communicate. Trying to understand me is the LAST thing they want to do. Many of them are caught up in a zeal to protect those they think are innocent and vulnerable, which is admirable if accurate, but in this case they are dead wrong.
If you would like to discuss any more of these issues with me here or by PT I'd be happy to accommodate you.
***
You also wrote: "If God placed His Word above His name then how could He place the possiblity of anything being over that? PFAL was good for my life, I've never stated the opposite here but dang man! it is not above God or His Word. Not for a southern second!"
Again I have great agreement with you here.
HOWEVER, if it is the case that God actually did give Dr a series of revelations (the manifestation of word of knowledge) over a 42 year span, AND He guided him to put these revelations into written form (word of wisdom) THEN we have to do some more thinking.
For God do what I just described is NOT forbidden. God is allowed to talk to people, and He is allowed to tell them to put His message into written form. We are not generally aware of God doing this in the past 2000 years, but it's not forbidden.
If God actually did do this with Dr, THEN those revelations would be PART of God's Word too. They wouldn't be ABOVE God, though. They would be a PART of God's Word.
If God did not give Dr such an abundance of revelations, then I am dead wrong in all my posting here.
In the early 1970's many of us grads thought that God DID give him lots of revelation, and in doing this we found that at times God would give us revelations too. We got talked out of this, though, and the signs miracles and wonders are now much less plentiful, compared to the 1970's. We resorted to the more "normal" traditional idea that God is forbidden to add to His own Bible.
The closing lines of the Book of Revelation (as they are translated in the KJV) make it look like God is forbidden to add to his own written words. I do not read that verse like it is traditionally believed. I know that God forbids PEOPLE from adding to His written Word, but He Himself can add to it all He wants. He did so in Jeremiah 36 if you care to see an example of this.
***
Lastly you wrote: "And where in the Bible do you back up believing in a man's work over that of Jesus Christ, while doing His Father's will (freely)?"
I could never back up an idea like that, nor would I even try to think it.
There were many men in old times who received revelations from God and who then put them into written form. The work done by these men NEVER superceded the work that Jesus Christ did.
All of the Biblical writers did work that helped us, but none of them out did Jesus Christ's work.
I do NOT believe that Dr did anything coming close to what Jesus Christ did. All Dr did was hear God's revelation and pass it on. That in itself involved SOME work, but nowhere near the work that Jesus did of BECOMMING the Word and DOING it to the uttermost. Dr lamented that he had failed to become the man he knew to be. Jesus Christ DID become the man he knew to be, and so far he's the ONLY man to do that. The workload Jesus Christ accomplished dwarfs all other men's works. I believe in Jesus Christ because of the written work done by the spokesmen Jesus Christ appointed to tell me about him.
***
CattyKathy, I hope this was not a regrettable experience for you.
I am very disinclined to argue lately with the hord who hound me here, but I would love to discuss any other impressions you have of me. Maybe they are mis-impressions like this one and we can discuss some deep and pleasant things.
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Ham
A long time ago, I promised myself I'd never get involved in one of the nice civilized brawls.. what hoppened? - heh heh. I think this one must of hit me just right..
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Ham
Cripe- whether or not you get results from it does not affect my spirituality. Personally, I don't need to see the dead walk to be convinced that there is a God, or that we've been redeemed by His son, for that matter.
But really, what is all of this "mastering of da class" doing for you? Just some nebulous, "well, I'm just so blessed today.." "I can finally see, I am blessed" or is it really tangible? Do you see real miracles, aside the conventional one when you happen to be able to pull up in your favorite parking spot? You may not read my intent- I am not mad, angry, etc.- just would like to know. What good has it, or is it doing?
What did PFAL do for me? I learned more in twig- at least more that was really useful. How to pray, what kind of things God might have a voice in about what to pray for- a few other things.
With that class, I found myself more and more trying to do the Lord's job. Tried figuring out every detail before taking a single step. Checking every stinking little key trying to determine if it was really the Lord or not. "God expects you to know everything you can know by your five senses". Revelation turned into sense-knowledge analysis. Just doing more and more of God's job. Trying to figure out if it was Word of Knowledge, or Word of Wisdom- or was it something else.. forever analyzing it to death.
Ever wonder why he put all that stuff about the manifestations in only three (technically speaking at least) chapters in the bible, and short ones at that? Maybe it's not such the big deal it's cracked up to be. Maybe it's just not as hard as you think. Heck, Samuel's "advanced class" lasted only about a verse and a half.
I find it interesting that the vast majority of the instructions in Corinthians regards PROPHECY- i.e., telling people what to do. Boiled down from all of the exhortation/comfort/forthtelling/foretelling definitions, that really is what it comes down to.
What about all of those keys- sixteen plus. "God expects you to know what you can know by your five senses" then the heavy revy can kick in, supposedly.
Ever think that your sense knowledge reliance and analysis just might be WRONG? Sure was for me, more than once. What in the world would God expect you to know THAT for? My God is a heck of a lot bigger, and far more generous. Labeling revelation given about something you already "know" being phenomenal is ridiculous. What you "know" is usually wrong.
Now, through the "help" of your "overseer", you can be a prevailing, schedule the life of the devil out of your daily routine believer. That would have driven me nuts, even then.
More work, work work work. No more, at least for me.
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Raf
Cry me a river...
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Ham
Raf, I actually take that as a compliment.. at least finally there is one horde I can "belong" to, heh heh..
As to P.F.A.L.- what kind of "results" did I see from it?
What I observed: not always- but normally- folks were given the apparent "magic keys" to spiritual success. Fine and wonderful- what did that produce? An ARMY of committed-to-the-accuracy-of-the-word zealots (myself included, at times) who were expertly groomed and taught how to PRETEND they had revelation. Revelation about everything. Why your job stunk. Why you were sick. Why your pet died. Why you should go in the corps, that you should go WOW, or increase the amount you were giving. Forget that they were a young, snot nose, wet behind the ears but somehow barely stayed awake during parts of the advanced class. But they were GRADS! And if you were a grad, you had the stamp of approval.
Of course things got much, much worse.
Corpse telling people to beat the he** out of their kid. Telling them that their spouse was possessed. Telling them... on and on.
Pretending they had the gift of healing and telling the victim to throw away their medicine. Yeah, I know doc vic's objection to this- "I'd make sure I really had revelation"- well, that's what they thought. Oh well, mistakes can be buried. And it HAS happened.
Pretending to have a ministry. Yes, pretending- look at old Loy. Never had one. If he did, he threw it away long ago, in the beginning.
There are exceptions, but that is the legacy of PFAL.
I think the demand of proof of claims not to be at all vulgar or profane, especially in light of the junk most of us have gone through. If they hold all the cards, they should joyfully play them.
Prophets are CALLED, not man or self-MADE. Never. Quit stinkin pretending you're something you're not. PFAL is not God. You cannot believe hard enough to be made a prophet, or apostle, or etc.. no amount of work, no amount of effort- all you'll get is a hernia, or embarassed or worse.
You can't study hard enough either. Won't happen. Sit back, relax, say, "It's OK, I'm not a prophet, I'm not a MOG.. things will be OK anyway, the sun will still rise tomorrow".
Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ really oughta be enough. What more could you want?
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Ham
Another thought- "though you may not have the MINISTRY of a prophet, you can believe to carry out the FUNCTION of a prophet"
Pure, absolute, balderdash. Nothing less. Only God almighty can energize the ministry or function of a prophet. But somehow, with the magic of believing or some such nonsense, and da accuracy of PFAL you yourself can somehow pull it off.
All I can say is, go ahead, try it. Pretend you've "got it". I know at least one guy that walked in the funeral parlor and tried. The dang corpse just wouldn't cooperate properly, you know..
Still not convinced? Go ahead- try it.
I think I'll wait to see what it does to you before I try it. No results? I wouldn't blame God.
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HCW
NO. They would not become a part of God's word, they would be some things that God told one of his children on a given day that might be of benefit to others of his children.
The problem I see with your POV on this topic is how you consistently ignore the personal, Fatherly, relationship God has with each and every one of his children. You confuse and then blur the line between things God tells us and TERM them, "revelation" and "God-Breathed."
All of your years of study have not yet allowed you to discern the simplicity that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself.
You also ignore the "unalterable truths" you speak so often of. "Of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." It is an unalterable truth that you can tell what one thinks by what he does. In other words, people DO what they WANT to do.
IF you truly WANTED us to get "the greatness of PFAL"
AND...
You truly felt you "have" it, you would tirelessly teach THAT. Instead you IGNORE more unalterable truth while you continue an argument that even should you win, it is pointless.
Ok. Mike. PFAL is God-Breathed. You win.
WHAT has changed? You are SO blind to the fact that WHERE something came from, or WHO it came out of has NOTHING to do with WHAT it IS! PFAL - - it IS what is IS what it IS, especially IF God made it that way.
You discredit the very thing you say is so near and dear to your heart. Had you ACTUALLY mastered the PFAL materials, you would certainly remember that some of the abundance of scripture in the materials says the following of people who were "ganging up - piling on" those who were boldly and consistently bearing God's truth to other who didn't want to hear it.
PFAL taught ME how apostles were called on the carpet and a wise person said, "Think about what you're doing to these men, LEAVE THEM ALONE... because if what they are saying is of God, you CANNOT fight against it. Fighting agains God almighty is futile."
I've engaged you in this debate to this point Mike, to give you an opportunity to SHOW - - ILLUSTRATE your mastery of PFAL. I wanted to see if you would reflect the HEART Vpw's feebile voice reflected in his, as you put it, last lost teaching.
By your fruit, people SHALL know you (yet another of those pesky "unalterable" truths). The "fruit" i.e. the RESULTS your life shows people indicates who and what you really are.
Your response over years is consistent. I don't need to repeat it. It is crystal clear to all who read this thread.
AS Mr. T said. I pity the fool.
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laleo
THAT has been my question since the beginning. What is the outcome, the benefit, the meaning, the reason, the purpose, the result of Mike's doctrine? He's a salesman without a product, peddling bottled air. Other than whatever smug satisfaction people get from thinking they are right, what else is there? It's all ego, as far as I can tell. There is no "abundant life" (or even the promise of one) at the end of it all.
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HCW
I'm thinking it may be a "revenge of the nerd" thing. Apparently there is no end.
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Mike
laleo,
No, it's not ego. I subject my ego to a pounding here. Why? It's for the VERY few who have heard or are hearing to a small degree. It's true that I have not yet mastered PFAL. I seek companions to master it with me, and in this sense I have been successful.
HCW, this ties in with your last post too. If my posting were a set of e-mails with just one person, or just the relatively few active posters who engage me, then I'd be crazy to have continued it for two full years and 4000 posts.
But it's not just a few active posters that comprise my reasons for posting. This forum is not a simple exchange between the posters. There are many who are simply reading along silently. They may be seeing my points, or maybe will see them tomorrow. A year after I quit posting some one person may come along and see my message. This is a far more complex situation of me witnessing to a few people, they reject my message, and then I'm obligated to move on.
An even farther removed, yet still valid reason for me to post in the face of seemingly total opposition is that I am operating the principle of releasing what I am learning. Not only that, but the atmosphere of opposition demands great thinking through of every sentence I post, knowing that there is a hord ready to pounce on each sentence. It's a little like wearing training weights while jogging. When I get to a more receptive audience I will have thought through all the angles due to the workout I get here.
But lately, my amount of avaliable time is low, and the number of challenging points thrown at me is high. Otherwise I'd love to deal with each and every point made.
HCW, I noticed that you are on to something interesting in the opening lines of your latest post. It looks like we may be revolving around the same ideas, but using slightly different words to describe those ideas. I must leave now, but I'll return to study your recent post more later. If you feel like expanding on those opening paragraphs then PLEASE DO.
More specifically it's these paragraphs that I find intriguing:
"NO. They would not become a part of God's word, they would be some things that God told one of his children on a given day that might be of benefit to others of his children.
"The problem I see with your POV on this topic is how you consistently ignore the personal, Fatherly, relationship God has with each and every one of his children. You confuse and then blur the line between things God tells us and TERM them, 'revelation' and 'God-Breathed.'"
I'll be back.
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Mike
ChattyKathy,
If you don't want to engage me any more here I'll understand.
It would be nice if you'd tell me if I answered your objection.
If my post is too long up above, please try just reading the bold faced paragraph.
Thanks.
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Raf
He has been saying the same exact thing for two years.
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ChattyKathy
Mike, I'm just coming around to gsc, just read your post, will be back in a bit. And yup I read it all man.
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dmiller
Mr. H --- Toushayyyy!!!
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