I'll repeat this: One of the editors of the PFAL book AGREED with my assessment of that grammar, and that Dr was claiming on that page to have SOME necessarily God-breathed writings.
He did NOT agree that Dr's written claim was true, at least not fully. He leaned in that direction at times, and admitted that in the old days he and MANY others leaned in that direction A LOT.
Three overt "Thus saith the Lord" statements stare us all in the face: TNDC p. 34, TNDC p. 116, and PFAL p. 83.
I've seen a total of almost a hundred not-so-overt statements in print and tape. The old timers remember Dr often claiming this authority, but he stopped making many of the overt claims after 1971 and his interview with Elena Whiteside.
I did not like these claims in those days, but I did remember them.
His dying last words (which were mysteriously lost for over 15 years) tell us to master, NOT the traditional KJV Bible or any other man-made version, but the God-breathed PFAL writings.
"We should come to the realization that we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry".
I guess I am just not "mature" enough. Have to go back and see if I can "get it". Just another second-rate non-believing non-member..heh heh.
Honestly- I DO NOT- never did, never will- owe my life to any stinking second rate cult type blood-sucking "ministry". Never. Call me immature, call me stupid- call me deluded- anything you want- no friggin way.
Even a righteous, "God fearing" organization- I owe them NOTHING but to love- and even then, FREELY, without compulsion.
I vividly remember the fellow that shared Romans 10:9 with me. I do not OWE my life to him, either. Thankful he shared though.
How can you sell, or charge for something that is obviously FREE? Holy smokes- the new birth- eternal life- saved- "call it what you will"- is FREE. How DARE some bastard claim that you owe your life to him/his organization for it? Good grief- it is not even in YOUR power to give it away. The only thing you can do is show somebody else where to get it. I remember enough stuff- like God is the one who is in the business of "giving". Cripe, even HEALING is a "gift".
So- "here's the new birth, now you can operate manifestations- now you owe me". I think not.
Believe that, and I have a half a dozen bridges that you could pay me to have the "priviledge" to drive over.
"But, but, you don't own the bridge, nobody else has to pay..."
I suppose somebody could come up with a verse somewhere- ah, yes, Philemon. "neither do I tell thee that thou owest me your very soul besides.."
Was he "strong-arming" Philemon to accept Onesimus back? I don't buy that explanation. Paul exhorted FOR LOVES sake. Not manipulation, not to see what kind of dough he could get out of the guy. Not to see how many more "babes" he could "work over" in the motorcoach. More of a nice tender exhortation, "Before you axe the guy, just remember what God did for you for a moment".
Who do you owe your life too? 1. God almighty. He is the author of life. 2. Jesus Christ- he is the one who performed the redemption, paid the price. "Owing" yourself to anybody else is pure, unadulterated evil. Slavery, not too mention idolatry. They do not supply your need. And its the same stupid stuff churches have been doing for years- "if it wasn't for US, you'd be in a heap of dang". Oh well, I guess God Almighty is no bigger than a blood-sucking organization.
Unbelievable- I'm not buying it, at least any more.
Mr. H -- I agree completely and just wanted to see your statement again, in toto, on the most recent page. This bears repeating, over and over and over and over... well, you catch my drift.
HCW -- your last post was spot-on and is only, probably, the dozenth or so time Mike has been confronted with that material but he seems to have an orange colored vegetable in each ear...or sumpn'... :D--> -->
Yep, things haven't changed for Mike and his VPW/PFAL worship. I have always said that Mike is here for the purpose of being an example of how religiously crazy one becomes when they idolalize the PFAL class. People read what he writes and think, "I sure don't want to be crazy like he is. Maybe PFAL isn't so good after all."
Thanks for your contribution to Grease Spot Cafe Mike.
I don't believe I've ever said that PFAL writings REPLACE the ancient scriptures.
To use just that one word "replace" is to misrepresent me. You listened to what others said I said, and not what I actually wrote.
I have said that for OLGs who have already spent a lot of time in the KJV, the mastery of PFAL should replace KJV study IN THEIR PRESENT STUDY SCHEDULES.
Just recently I stated that if I were to "convert" a non-grad to my way of thinking, I would have to encourage that person to spend MUCH time in the KJV along with study of PFAL. Why was this missed by all those who "quote" me as saying PFAL replaces the KJV? WHY??? Because they WANT to misrepresent me, and desparately, I might add.
It's ridiculous to think that PFAL replaces the same scriptures it discusses in great length. If it WERE to replace them, it would immediately re-instate them and their importance in the eyes of any reader.
In a practical sense PFAL "replaces" the ancient scriptures in the same way Paul's epistles "replace" the law of Moses. In other words, PFAL only "sort of replaces" the ancient scriptures.
Remember, Dr's dying last (and lost) words were to master PFAL.
You see, HCW, it doesn't replace the Bible. It just sort of replaces it. Or, rather, it "replaces" the Bible, in a way. But it doesn't replace it. Get it? So what you have to do is not replace the closed Bible on your shelf: you merely have to replace the open Bible on your desk. Or your lap.
That way you can master your book on keys to Biblical interpretation without having to worry about opening the Bible you're supposed to be understanding in the first place... Just Like Wierwille Wanted!
I still think Wierwille's knuckles would bleed from the force of repeatedly slapping Mike upside the head for this boneheaded and backward theory of his.
MIke just discovered p. 83 in the last few years guys. That's why this is so exhilerating to him - he wasted his time the first go round in the Way and didn't do the work then so now he's all like 'that' about it all. He thinks he's discovered something in the last lost teaching, something hid, something hidDEN, something no one wanted you to know, but now he's discovered.
Which was the very same thing VPW'd been saying for years, and virtually all his life. The significance of those statements he made on that tape Mike's fingering, at that season of his life.....is completely lost by all of these convoluted inventions.
HCW - Love your posts! Love hearing it straight from the horse's mouth (editorially speaking), not from the other end.
The only thing I might add to your analysis of the statement on PFAL 83 is this: I think the "not all" of the sentence in question is a contrasting allusion to the "all" of II Timothy 3:16.
Love,
Steve
OLG Extraordinaire of the United States by Popular Acclaim
Let's not forget that all of the ancient Biblical writers were human, and that NOT ALL that they wrote was God-breathed either. What WAS God-breathed of their writings and what God wanted preserved for us, made it to us.
***
socks,
I didn't discover anything. I spent 11 years looking, from 1987 to 1998, and I found NOTHING of import. It was all showed to me by a man here in San Diego in 1998. I take no credit. I simply embraced a point of view superior to my own. I reveled in discoveries not my own. This has been my testimomy here all along, but no one has paid much attention to what they can't hang me on. Your musings against me are those of a man trying to justify his own continued disobedience to Dr's final instructions.
You seem to willingly forget that I get exposed to a massive number of KJV verses as I study PFAL. Nearly every page has verses. I had 27 years exposure to the entire man-breathed KJV. There is nothing lacking in my spiritual diet. I probably CURRENTLY get more KJV exposure than most posters here, yet you seem to want to ignore that too. Take a poll someday or ask around how much posters here open up their Bibles. Do you want to condemn Oakspear and Abigail for what they have replaced their KJV exposure with? No? Why not?
It's ridiculous to think that PFAL replaces the same scriptures it discusses in great length. If it WERE to replace them, it would immediately re-instate them and their importance in the eyes of any reader.
In a practical sense PFAL "replaces" the ancient scriptures in the same way Paul's epistles "replace" the law of Moses. In other words, PFAL only "sort of replaces" the ancient scriptures.
Remember, Dr's dying last (and lost) words were to master PFAL.
(and taken from another post)
His dying last words (which were mysteriously lost for over 15 years) tell us to master, NOT the traditional KJV Bible or any other man-made version, but the God-breathed PFAL writings.
I know I'll regret this but.....
Mike, re-read your first paragraph. IF IT WERE TO REPLACE THEM....That's kind of wild don't you think? To even think it is way to liberal for a Bible believer IMO. If God placed His Word above His name then how could He place the possiblity of anything being over that? PFAL was good for my life, I've never stated the opposite here but dang man! it is not above God or His Word. Not for a southern second!
And where in the Bible do you back up believing in a man's work over that of Jesus Christ, while doing His Father's will (freely)?
He did NOT agree that Dr's written claim was true, at least not fully. He leaned in that direction at times, and admitted that in the old days he and MANY others leaned in that direction A LOT.
Your musings against me are those of a man trying to justify his own continued disobedience to Dr's final instructions.
My musings aren't against you Mike. I'm not against you. You may feel I am, but I'm not. I don't want to actively participate but I'm free to comment. I won't advance your effort, that's different than being against you. Posting on this board as you do is a very minimal effort on your part IMO, tantamount to falling out of bed in the morning and saying you got up. Hopefully it's only a small part of whatever effort you are making to spread your message.
I would present another path that proceeds from PFAL, a path that isn't one based on the integrity of the class itself as being the "word of God", a path that proceeds from what it teaches about, from and to - the bible. PFAL as a medium points to the bible as the primary source for understanding the will of God, that is, what God wants a person to know about Him and life. Of PFAL and it's purpose there is no question or argument about that. Regardless of how much or little integrity a person places in PFAL itself that's it's own message. It provides some fairly straightforward tools for developing an understanding of the bible. A person then takes the tools and does what PFAL teaches - "works the Word", the bible, in order to gain an understanding of the will of God. The fact that the KJV or any other version lacks in any sense or form is addressed by the purpose of PFAL. It offers solutions for the person who would like to understand the bible but can't. By using the tools it presents a person can take their bible and begin to learn what the bible is saying and what it means.
PFAL ends with a series of segments on speaking in tongues - what VPW teaches as a manifestation of the spirit. PFAL teaches that because VPW believed it is available for a Christian today to have a spiritual relationship with God, one that's alive and real and according to his teaching allows a person to have a real prayer life and be able to give real worship to God. PFAL ends with placing the final piece down for a person. Again, if a person doesn't believe the teaching in speaking in tongues as taught, it's still a simple fact of the class itself that the spiritual component is there and taught as absolutely necessary. Reading the bible, studying, using it's tools, isn't the end result, it's not all there is for a Christian believer to do today. Rather, the entire class leads up to the final 3 sessions where a person is led into the means to have a personal relationship with God, through Christ.
VPW taught often about "spritual perception and awareness". He taught that a person needed to speak in tongues "much" to develop their spiritual life, to exercise their spiritual capabilities. He taught that to do so would, over time, allow a person's understanding of the bible to flourish and grow. As a person's "mind of Christ" became a clearer reality to them the teachings of the bible's books would open. Through this active process of growing "spiritually", understanding would come. He was very clear that research alone would not, in his opinion, give a person a full ulitmate understanding of what the bible taught. Rather a person needed to have a willingness for God to open it to them.
The fact that PFAL teaches some of that information doesn't assume to say that a person who listens to the class or reads the books will get the full understanding of it from study and research. They'll get the knowledge, but knowledge alone isn't the goal and doesn't even do a person any good if they don't attempt to incorporate it in to their lifestyle, actions and decision making. Knowledge is part of the path to a personal relationship with Christ and God. Correct knowledge simply allows a person to do what PFAL does in sessions 10 through 12 - have a real spiritual relationship with God by starting to live the "gift", holy spirit.
Whether PFAL is the Word of God reissued or not isn't important. To accomplish what PFAL sets out to do a person doesn't have to accept it that way. They simply need to hear what it teaches and act accordingly. The result is night and day. Once you're in the day you're there, where you belong.
One of the things I realized when I went in the Way Corps was that it was clearly possible for a Christian to embrace the knowledge and pursue it but not have that recognition for God nor a relationship with Him. PFAL grads included. They could know ABOUT God but not KNOW God. He could be something they read about, not someone they knew. Jesus Christ could turn in to a person read about but not known. And really, if you don't get hung up too long on PFAL it does do a decent job of presenting that IF a person moves on and doesn't turn it into an icon. The key, if there is one, to not put the workman or his tools above the ground he's been given to work.
I don't believe I've ever said that PFAL writings REPLACE the ancient scriptures.
(snip)
WHY??? Because they WANT to misrepresent me, and desparately, I might add.
In a practical sense PFAL "replaces" the ancient scriptures in the same way Paul's epistles "replace" the law of Moses. In other words, PFAL only "sort of replaces" the ancient scriptures.
Remember, Dr's dying last (and lost) words were to master PFAL.
Ok, now....
The "misrepresenting" thing is an old charge of Mike's. He doesn't like what
we say about him, so he claims we misrepresent him. I'm one of many who go
out of their way to see he's represented HONESTLY-with his doctrines clear and
visible.
Here's what Mike HAS said previously about PFAL replacing stuff....
(6/15/03, 5:49pm, Eastern.)
"I'd say it's not a replacement for the Bible but a replacement for the
traditional SOURCES from which we can GET the Bible."
Here's what Mike's said about the Bibles you can hold in your hand...
(6/3/03, 12:18am, Eastern)
"When I say 'unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants', I am referring to the
MODERN hand-me-down versions of scripture, along with the usual suspects like
Greek translators."
Here's one comment on PFAL vs KJV:
(ibid)
"The REASON for the 1942 intervention and the PFAL writings was to make the
perfectly renewed mind available for the first time in written form. This was a
very new thing that happened in 1982. The perfectly renewed mind cannot be
received from KJV study, but it can be received by mastering the PFAL writings,
including its repetition of many KJV verses. Most of the KJV verses you all find
most crucial are printed in the PFAL writings and given a rightful context and
foundation for us in our time now. In a practical sense, mastering PFAL would
INCLUDE mastering a very hefty portion of the KJV. There's nothing missing in the
I dunno- call me an unbeliever, a doubter, a skeptic- whatever.
But- where is da beef? Where are the results? Why am I not listening to the reports on TV about all of the massive signs, miracles AND wonders produced from "da word as it has not been known since the first century" somewhere in lil old California? Where are they? I thought these kind of things followed the spoken word- you know, the kind of things to convince the unconvincable.
Honestly- setting aside obvious doctrinal issues, what about the practical side? If it (PFAL) is the greatest thing since Moses parted the red sea, why am I not hearing about it? There is no media cover-up, no conspiracy to hide. They would be willing to report on this kind of thing in a heartbeat- they've sent out their almost best for far less. They'd send the best of the best of their correspondants to cover the event.
Where is it? Where's the party? Heck, I'd even be willing to muster up enough gas money go travel accross the country to see it.
Apparently, twenty plus years of mastering "the sacred" writings is not sufficient. Obviously, it is not working. When you figure this out, please don't blame God.
Lets see- you're telling me that a snot nosed little temple servant, who did not have the benefit of the grand class is doing a far better job than you? Yes, I am talking about Samuel. Didn't take him twenty years to "master" the method of revelation. Heck, he likely wasn't even twenty years old to begin with.
Really- I don't see why you have to make God THAT HARD to deal with. Honestly.
Cripe- Samuel did not need a Master's degree in advanced cybernetics to learn to hear the voice of the Lord- no less hundreds of hours of "biblical" instruction. Heck, old Eli taught him IN ONE SENTENCE. Not even sixteen keys to retemorize. Remember- this was before "the fullness" came. But somehow, with Christ in us and all, it's supposed to be so much tougher. Somehow, I still just don't get it.
It still sounds like an advanced form of Phariseeism to me- got the whole dadburned thing memorized and it STILL won't work. Must be some secret sin or somethin- that's one explanation I heard thrown at people. Can't be the class- just can't be.
Kinda reminds of an old Star Trek episode- at the prospect of going through the transporter, old doc stood back and said "lets see what it does to your molecules first".
Honestly- what has it done? I'm not really writing out of anger on anything, but really- "well, we didn't quite get is JUST right". More working required, more labor- more and more and more and more.
One thing I'll say- you won't get me in that thing. Seen a plenty of what it's done to you.
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Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
Mike
I'll repeat this: One of the editors of the PFAL book AGREED with my assessment of that grammar, and that Dr was claiming on that page to have SOME necessarily God-breathed writings.
He did NOT agree that Dr's written claim was true, at least not fully. He leaned in that direction at times, and admitted that in the old days he and MANY others leaned in that direction A LOT.
Three overt "Thus saith the Lord" statements stare us all in the face: TNDC p. 34, TNDC p. 116, and PFAL p. 83.
I've seen a total of almost a hundred not-so-overt statements in print and tape. The old timers remember Dr often claiming this authority, but he stopped making many of the overt claims after 1971 and his interview with Elena Whiteside.
I did not like these claims in those days, but I did remember them.
His dying last words (which were mysteriously lost for over 15 years) tell us to master, NOT the traditional KJV Bible or any other man-made version, but the God-breathed PFAL writings.
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Raf
See?
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alfakat
Mr. H -- I agree completely and just wanted to see your statement again, in toto, on the most recent page. This bears repeating, over and over and over and over... well, you catch my drift.
HCW -- your last post was spot-on and is only, probably, the dozenth or so time Mike has been confronted with that material but he seems to have an orange colored vegetable in each ear...or sumpn'...
:D--> 
-->
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Mark Sanguinetti
Yep, things haven't changed for Mike and his VPW/PFAL worship. I have always said that Mike is here for the purpose of being an example of how religiously crazy one becomes when they idolalize the PFAL class. People read what he writes and think, "I sure don't want to be crazy like he is. Maybe PFAL isn't so good after all."
Thanks for your contribution to Grease Spot Cafe Mike.
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Mike
HCW,
I don't believe I've ever said that PFAL writings REPLACE the ancient scriptures.
To use just that one word "replace" is to misrepresent me. You listened to what others said I said, and not what I actually wrote.
I have said that for OLGs who have already spent a lot of time in the KJV, the mastery of PFAL should replace KJV study IN THEIR PRESENT STUDY SCHEDULES.
Just recently I stated that if I were to "convert" a non-grad to my way of thinking, I would have to encourage that person to spend MUCH time in the KJV along with study of PFAL. Why was this missed by all those who "quote" me as saying PFAL replaces the KJV? WHY??? Because they WANT to misrepresent me, and desparately, I might add.
It's ridiculous to think that PFAL replaces the same scriptures it discusses in great length. If it WERE to replace them, it would immediately re-instate them and their importance in the eyes of any reader.
In a practical sense PFAL "replaces" the ancient scriptures in the same way Paul's epistles "replace" the law of Moses. In other words, PFAL only "sort of replaces" the ancient scriptures.
Remember, Dr's dying last (and lost) words were to master PFAL.
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Raf
You see, HCW, it doesn't replace the Bible. It just sort of replaces it. Or, rather, it "replaces" the Bible, in a way. But it doesn't replace it. Get it? So what you have to do is not replace the closed Bible on your shelf: you merely have to replace the open Bible on your desk. Or your lap.
That way you can master your book on keys to Biblical interpretation without having to worry about opening the Bible you're supposed to be understanding in the first place... Just Like Wierwille Wanted!
I still think Wierwille's knuckles would bleed from the force of repeatedly slapping Mike upside the head for this boneheaded and backward theory of his.
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socks
MIke just discovered p. 83 in the last few years guys. That's why this is so exhilerating to him - he wasted his time the first go round in the Way and didn't do the work then so now he's all like 'that' about it all. He thinks he's discovered something in the last lost teaching, something hid, something hidDEN, something no one wanted you to know, but now he's discovered.
Which was the very same thing VPW'd been saying for years, and virtually all his life. The significance of those statements he made on that tape Mike's fingering, at that season of his life.....is completely lost by all of these convoluted inventions.
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Steve Lortz
HCW - Love your posts! Love hearing it straight from the horse's mouth (editorially speaking), not from the other end.
The only thing I might add to your analysis of the statement on PFAL 83 is this: I think the "not all" of the sentence in question is a contrasting allusion to the "all" of II Timothy 3:16.
Love,
Steve
OLG Extraordinaire of the United States by Popular Acclaim
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Mike
Steve Lortz,
Let's not forget that all of the ancient Biblical writers were human, and that NOT ALL that they wrote was God-breathed either. What WAS God-breathed of their writings and what God wanted preserved for us, made it to us.
***
socks,
I didn't discover anything. I spent 11 years looking, from 1987 to 1998, and I found NOTHING of import. It was all showed to me by a man here in San Diego in 1998. I take no credit. I simply embraced a point of view superior to my own. I reveled in discoveries not my own. This has been my testimomy here all along, but no one has paid much attention to what they can't hang me on. Your musings against me are those of a man trying to justify his own continued disobedience to Dr's final instructions.
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Mike
Raf,
You seem to willingly forget that I get exposed to a massive number of KJV verses as I study PFAL. Nearly every page has verses. I had 27 years exposure to the entire man-breathed KJV. There is nothing lacking in my spiritual diet. I probably CURRENTLY get more KJV exposure than most posters here, yet you seem to want to ignore that too. Take a poll someday or ask around how much posters here open up their Bibles. Do you want to condemn Oakspear and Abigail for what they have replaced their KJV exposure with? No? Why not?
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HCW
Ok Raf. My Brain is now turned off.
Yes Mike. You're right. We all willingly forget how much scripture you ingest on a daily basis.
That may be, however more of a testament to how little we think about you than what we think of your study habits.
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ChattyKathy
I know I'll regret this but.....
Mike, re-read your first paragraph. IF IT WERE TO REPLACE THEM....That's kind of wild don't you think? To even think it is way to liberal for a Bible believer IMO. If God placed His Word above His name then how could He place the possiblity of anything being over that? PFAL was good for my life, I've never stated the opposite here but dang man! it is not above God or His Word. Not for a southern second!
And where in the Bible do you back up believing in a man's work over that of Jesus Christ, while doing His Father's will (freely)?
Like I said I will regret this I'm sure.
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HCW
Yeah Raf. I see.
I'm leaning in that direction too.
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HCW
In the old days HE and OTHERS leaned a certain way but now, he did not agree that Dr's written claim was true.
I see how Mike has also not discovered, but has become able to utilize time travel in his quest.
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WordWolf
The following was posted by Goey, June 1, 2003, 2:12pm Eastern.
=======
--------------------------
From PFAL- p83
"The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of
doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies
change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it
stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures..." It does not say
search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. WIerwille's writings or the
writings of a denomination. No, it says "Search the scriptures..." because all
scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be
God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts;
but the Scriptures- they are God-breathed.
--------------------
In think WIerwille put "necessarily" in there because he believed or wanted others to
believe that it was "possible" for him to write from inspiration. Just as possible for
him as it was for the others he mentioned, like Luther, Wesley, etc. I have no problem
with that. It is certainly possible that God could inspire any one of us to write.
In the last sentence, Wierwille uses a semicolon after
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."
Then he lists these other folks but omits the word 'necessarily'. This, according to
Bullinger, is the figure of speech-ellipsis or omission. We could add the word
'necessarily' before 'what Calvin said'-and not change the sense of the sentence.
It would then read:
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed, not
[necessarily] what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor
Roberts; but the Scriptures- they are God-breathed."
In fact, you could rearrange the names in any order and not change the sense of what
Wierwille was saying here.
After he lists these men he then says 'but'.
BUT! BUT! BUT!...IN CONTRAST to what all these men have written- it is the Scriptures
that are God-breathed and it is the Scriptures that are to be searched (and mastered.)
The thrust and point of WIerwille's message here is that the works of men-
including Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc-and Wierwille himself; even though they
'could' be God-breathed (inspired)- are not scripture. They are not in the Bible and are
not a part of the canon of scripture. And, rather than rely on the works of men,
(Wierwille includes himself), we are to search the Bible (scriptures)-
"so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory
or ideology."
Mike, it seems that because of your seeking for "hidden messages" and because of your
presumptions necessary to support your theories, that you have missed the actual
message that Wierwlle was really attempting to make. You got it exactly reversed from
what Wierwille was trying to teach here in PFAL.
==================
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socks
My musings aren't against you Mike. I'm not against you. You may feel I am, but I'm not. I don't want to actively participate but I'm free to comment. I won't advance your effort, that's different than being against you. Posting on this board as you do is a very minimal effort on your part IMO, tantamount to falling out of bed in the morning and saying you got up. Hopefully it's only a small part of whatever effort you are making to spread your message.
I would present another path that proceeds from PFAL, a path that isn't one based on the integrity of the class itself as being the "word of God", a path that proceeds from what it teaches about, from and to - the bible. PFAL as a medium points to the bible as the primary source for understanding the will of God, that is, what God wants a person to know about Him and life. Of PFAL and it's purpose there is no question or argument about that. Regardless of how much or little integrity a person places in PFAL itself that's it's own message. It provides some fairly straightforward tools for developing an understanding of the bible. A person then takes the tools and does what PFAL teaches - "works the Word", the bible, in order to gain an understanding of the will of God. The fact that the KJV or any other version lacks in any sense or form is addressed by the purpose of PFAL. It offers solutions for the person who would like to understand the bible but can't. By using the tools it presents a person can take their bible and begin to learn what the bible is saying and what it means.
PFAL ends with a series of segments on speaking in tongues - what VPW teaches as a manifestation of the spirit. PFAL teaches that because VPW believed it is available for a Christian today to have a spiritual relationship with God, one that's alive and real and according to his teaching allows a person to have a real prayer life and be able to give real worship to God. PFAL ends with placing the final piece down for a person. Again, if a person doesn't believe the teaching in speaking in tongues as taught, it's still a simple fact of the class itself that the spiritual component is there and taught as absolutely necessary. Reading the bible, studying, using it's tools, isn't the end result, it's not all there is for a Christian believer to do today. Rather, the entire class leads up to the final 3 sessions where a person is led into the means to have a personal relationship with God, through Christ.
VPW taught often about "spritual perception and awareness". He taught that a person needed to speak in tongues "much" to develop their spiritual life, to exercise their spiritual capabilities. He taught that to do so would, over time, allow a person's understanding of the bible to flourish and grow. As a person's "mind of Christ" became a clearer reality to them the teachings of the bible's books would open. Through this active process of growing "spiritually", understanding would come. He was very clear that research alone would not, in his opinion, give a person a full ulitmate understanding of what the bible taught. Rather a person needed to have a willingness for God to open it to them.
The fact that PFAL teaches some of that information doesn't assume to say that a person who listens to the class or reads the books will get the full understanding of it from study and research. They'll get the knowledge, but knowledge alone isn't the goal and doesn't even do a person any good if they don't attempt to incorporate it in to their lifestyle, actions and decision making. Knowledge is part of the path to a personal relationship with Christ and God. Correct knowledge simply allows a person to do what PFAL does in sessions 10 through 12 - have a real spiritual relationship with God by starting to live the "gift", holy spirit.
Whether PFAL is the Word of God reissued or not isn't important. To accomplish what PFAL sets out to do a person doesn't have to accept it that way. They simply need to hear what it teaches and act accordingly. The result is night and day. Once you're in the day you're there, where you belong.
One of the things I realized when I went in the Way Corps was that it was clearly possible for a Christian to embrace the knowledge and pursue it but not have that recognition for God nor a relationship with Him. PFAL grads included. They could know ABOUT God but not KNOW God. He could be something they read about, not someone they knew. Jesus Christ could turn in to a person read about but not known. And really, if you don't get hung up too long on PFAL it does do a decent job of presenting that IF a person moves on and doesn't turn it into an icon. The key, if there is one, to not put the workman or his tools above the ground he's been given to work.
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WordWolf
Ok, now....
The "misrepresenting" thing is an old charge of Mike's. He doesn't like what
we say about him, so he claims we misrepresent him. I'm one of many who go
out of their way to see he's represented HONESTLY-with his doctrines clear and
visible.
Here's what Mike HAS said previously about PFAL replacing stuff....
(6/15/03, 5:49pm, Eastern.)
"I'd say it's not a replacement for the Bible but a replacement for the
traditional SOURCES from which we can GET the Bible."
Here's what Mike's said about the Bibles you can hold in your hand...
(6/3/03, 12:18am, Eastern)
"When I say 'unreliable fragments AND tattered remnants', I am referring to the
MODERN hand-me-down versions of scripture, along with the usual suspects like
Greek translators."
Here's one comment on PFAL vs KJV:
(ibid)
"The REASON for the 1942 intervention and the PFAL writings was to make the
perfectly renewed mind available for the first time in written form. This was a
very new thing that happened in 1982. The perfectly renewed mind cannot be
received from KJV study, but it can be received by mastering the PFAL writings,
including its repetition of many KJV verses. Most of the KJV verses you all find
most crucial are printed in the PFAL writings and given a rightful context and
foundation for us in our time now. In a practical sense, mastering PFAL would
INCLUDE mastering a very hefty portion of the KJV. There's nothing missing in the
PFAL diet."
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WordWolf
Oh, and here's the passage from the Orange Book that says that the Mikean
doctrine of the scriptures being essentially lost to us,
(thus requiring the rewrite he claims happened from 1942 on,)
contradicts the internal testimony of pfal....
Page 128.
"Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the
fifth century AD, how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when
holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any
version, we have to compare one word with another word and one verse with another
verse. We have to study the context of all the verses. If it is the Word of God,
then it cannot have a contradiction for God cannot contradict Himself. Error has to be
either in the translation or in one's own understanding. When we get back to that
original, God-breathed Word-which I am confident we can- then once again we will be
able to say with all the authority of the prophets of old, 'thus saith the Lord.' "
Mike's doctrine claims that this is NOT possible-it MUST claim this, since
it claims that it was necessary for got to issue new revelation, new holy scripture.
Mike, 1/9/04, 1:19am, Eastern.
"God's Word was LOST in the first century."
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WordWolf
BTW,
kudos to HCW for noting that the teaching on "The Joy of Serving"
was about
"the joy of serving"
and not about
"now God has unveiled a new Bible."
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HCW
That's right; TIME TRAVEL.
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def59
When a famous singer or star dies, there always seems to "lost" tracks or manuscripts laying around for someone to publish.
Maybe vpw had some stashed away that we could glean hidden truths from. Because if it is not lost, it can't be real.
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Ham
I dunno- call me an unbeliever, a doubter, a skeptic- whatever.
But- where is da beef? Where are the results? Why am I not listening to the reports on TV about all of the massive signs, miracles AND wonders produced from "da word as it has not been known since the first century" somewhere in lil old California? Where are they? I thought these kind of things followed the spoken word- you know, the kind of things to convince the unconvincable.
Honestly- setting aside obvious doctrinal issues, what about the practical side? If it (PFAL) is the greatest thing since Moses parted the red sea, why am I not hearing about it? There is no media cover-up, no conspiracy to hide. They would be willing to report on this kind of thing in a heartbeat- they've sent out their almost best for far less. They'd send the best of the best of their correspondants to cover the event.
Where is it? Where's the party? Heck, I'd even be willing to muster up enough gas money go travel accross the country to see it.
Apparently, twenty plus years of mastering "the sacred" writings is not sufficient. Obviously, it is not working. When you figure this out, please don't blame God.
Lets see- you're telling me that a snot nosed little temple servant, who did not have the benefit of the grand class is doing a far better job than you? Yes, I am talking about Samuel. Didn't take him twenty years to "master" the method of revelation. Heck, he likely wasn't even twenty years old to begin with.
Really- I don't see why you have to make God THAT HARD to deal with. Honestly.
Cripe- Samuel did not need a Master's degree in advanced cybernetics to learn to hear the voice of the Lord- no less hundreds of hours of "biblical" instruction. Heck, old Eli taught him IN ONE SENTENCE. Not even sixteen keys to retemorize. Remember- this was before "the fullness" came. But somehow, with Christ in us and all, it's supposed to be so much tougher. Somehow, I still just don't get it.
It still sounds like an advanced form of Phariseeism to me- got the whole dadburned thing memorized and it STILL won't work. Must be some secret sin or somethin- that's one explanation I heard thrown at people. Can't be the class- just can't be.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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Ham
Kinda reminds of an old Star Trek episode- at the prospect of going through the transporter, old doc stood back and said "lets see what it does to your molecules first".
Honestly- what has it done? I'm not really writing out of anger on anything, but really- "well, we didn't quite get is JUST right". More working required, more labor- more and more and more and more.
One thing I'll say- you won't get me in that thing. Seen a plenty of what it's done to you.
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Ham
Lets see- do I understand what's really going on with this "debate"?
"Really, PFAL isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread"
"That is not even debatable."
"Where are the results then?"
"sorry, results not guaranteed. Even if they were guaranteed."
Make any sense?
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