Although I do not accept the main inferred Those closest to Dr knew that his mind was intact. That Dr was lucid in those last weeks, as reported in the POP, was never rejected after Craig split with Chris around '89.
But you weren't close to him. So how do we trust you? As for the others, you now say those closest to him have merit, so what about the poster who edited his articles, why does he carry no weight with you?
Full mellow hippie- probably closer to the truth. Actually, I was only partly nice in TWI. The old branch guy thought even then I was too nice. Now I must just be wallowing in niceness.. heh heh.
Nice is good but not always appropriate IMHO. You appear to have the ability to work on your feet.
I think some of us who thought PFAL was a means to an end- the idea that we could understand the bible- got something out of it. But it was highly overrated. No longer was it a nice little set of keys, it turned into some kind of magic pill that could make you "superbeliever", able to jump over the biggest spurts in a single bound. Cripe, it offered claims that only God Almighty had the right to make.
The truth that was taught during the class still stands for me, and I went into twi an adult Christian with some understanding of such matters. It was what they made it become, the "one mind" controlled from above, and the above stopped in the top of the "missile silo". Which included the superbeliever of which was not able to leap over tall buildings without the means to think for themselves rather than be tied at the naval to their branch (at minimum level).
Without question I have found error in what I was taught now that I am out and can see more clearly, but I don't see it as total waste material like some. And that is there's to believe. Heck if I would tell them to pretend like they don't believe their convictions.
I don't consider it an entire waste either. The problem was just what it BECAME, or what it was promoted as. With PFAL vaunted to the status of "godhood"- and I'm thinking more of the whole series- if you didn't get results- if you couldn't sense every darn spurt this side of the mississippi, or if you were chronically sick for ANY reason, woe unto you. It surely can't be the doctrine's fault. Even though results or experiences were not guaranteed, they were EXPECTED.
That's the whole problem with this whole "PFAL is God-breathed, and perfect" concept. No results? The problem MUST lie with you. And if the leadership can't figure out the problem- you must be possessed or something.
I think it did not turn out to be the magical formula that guaranteed success that it was touted to be- it just did not live up to it's reputation.
But it did answer about eighty five percent of any question I ever did have about the bible. And the few decent keys to help me just plain read it were OK. A nice bible class that I got some truth out of would be a good assessment. Some truth- that I paid, and paid, and paid for again and again.
There was a time when we would answer questions, or at least try to get the answers for unanswered questions. At times, in the foundational class, I saw the head honcho go over twenty or more questions, without berating the asker. I observed that to become less and less of an occurence.
Seemed at my advanced class, my impression was that people were afraid to ask questions. At least one I know of was sent home for doing so- she had some objection to the "myth of the six million" concept. Twig times consisted of mainly rehashing the last session or two. No real questions were asked, only review to see if you're really "getting it". Just to make sure you could spout out all of the definitions right, retemorize more verses- it was very well "programmed".
As far as the niceness concept.. I think a lot of it was missing in TWI, at least as I define it.
Sure, I disagree with other people almost every day of the week. I just don't hate them any more. In TWI, it was easier to label someone as deluded or possessed if they dared to disagree. Too easy.
Honestly, it took me some time to come to the realization that if somebody believed something different, or voiced a different opinion, that it was not necessarily of da debil. Really- it took some time away from Da Vey for a lot of the stupidity to wear off.
I have found that I can disagree with most people on almost any subject and still be friends.
Heck, even Mike- can't hate him. The old TWI "just let da debil have em" - don't even consider that, any more. Poetry works.. heh heh.
But back to PFAL- if it is equal to "the Word"- you gotta eat it all. "we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us the word". Any yes, that one just happened to be printed in "the sacred text". Don't like the taste of that? Maybe you could use lots and lots of ketchup.
MY bible says the lord paid for me, not some blood sucking "ministry".
Can anyone explain to me how I could work at TWI HQ for the better part of a decade and it took me being away from "the ministry" for about 17 years before I learned that PFAL was supposedly "God-Breathed?"
I tend to agree w/ Mr Hamma. I've never thought of PFAL as anything but "A" Bible class. Certainly not "THE premiere Bible class" nor could it be considered, under ANY circumstances equal to THE word from God.
No matter how good it may be, it just isn't complete enough to replace the Bible. The Bible comprehensievly covers EVERY principle involved in this life and gives us a bird's eye view into glimpses of the next life.
I HAVE mastered it. Long before Vp's last teaching, "The Joy of Service" which he delivered quite a few times during his last days. It seemed like everywhere he went he was teaching that same teaching. He WAS trying to make a point with it, which I saw as being...
"There IS a JOY to service, people."
Personally, I've tried to, and feel I've done a decent job of discovering that there IS a JOY to serving people.
I heard some things in PFAL that I hadn't heard before. I felt the concept that "Jesus either told the truth or he lied..." was novel. Logical. I had never seen the Bible approached from a logical POV as one would math or science. Most approached God & the Bible & church from a religious POV that I always found idiotic, but I was afraid to challenge it because I was afraid of what God might do to me.
Read it for yourself. That was one of the biggest things I got from PFAL. "Chapter & verse, please." was how they spoke of handling religious idiocy. I was willing to accepth the concept that God was smart enough to put "signs," and other things in the Bible that would help each of us to understand His Word & Will for our lives.
That's what I took from PFAL each of the 28 times I took it before I stopped counting... Read it for yourself. I now read it for myself. It works. I've found it to be true & faithful. As I've grown in God's word, through careful study I now see how my thinking patterns have changed. I now see statements like, "you own your life to the ministry that taught you the word," as self-serving BS.
Life has become, and is becoming more & more simple. God teaches us His word, regardless of the "ministry" we "fellowship" with. You see, the BIBLE tells us that. Reading & studying it DOES actually "renew" one's mind. We must believe IT, not a religious version of it.
This is why (IMO) God told us of how "these were more noble than those" ... in that "they searched the scriptures whether thse things were so."
AFTER being taught, they "read it for themselves." I figure I can become "more noble" if I read it for myself.
++++++++++++++++++++++
As an artist, I do lots of things that I feel are inspired by God. We all do "God-Inspired" things every day. There may be some God Inspired things about PFAL. Even if so, it is no more God's Word to our generation than (fill in the blank). There is a BIG difference.
PFAL is not living and energetic. There is nothing about it that can heal a soul or bring a person from death to eternal life. Its primary redeeming quality is that it MENTIONED God's word. It CONTAINS some scriptures. It talks ABOUT God and how to come to your own understanding of His Word. Those are GOOD things.
It also endears people to a man who, evidently, had major spiritual problems of his own. The abuses that lie in the wake of his "ministry" are horribly hideous. I can't blame anyone who feels they have no further need of PFAL. VP hurt many. Thats a BAD thing.
To the extent that people believed the 2000 year unique revelations, starting in 1942, that God gave Dr and Dr put into written form, those people got blessed.
The reason you didn't hear of these teachings being God-breathed is because you had your ears closed to it.
You can open them to what is written on pages 34 and 116 of TNDC, and page 83 of PFAL and see that Dr claimed PFAL is God-breathed.
Or you can close off your mind to this great blessing God has given us.
Is it just me? ...or is anyone else picturing Mike right now... holding his hands over his ears and saying "na-na-na-NA-NA-NA-NAAA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"... ???
Most of what HCW said to me I've heard before, and I've posted on before.
I'm getting to the point of not WANTING to hear the rejection of God and His blessings to us.
Please remember that I spent 27 years in the frame of mind of rejecting Dr's God given authority.
I not only hear those who speak against this Word here, but I remember saying to myself and out loud the same things.
I've got the answers to the objections posted here, and HAD the answers 7 years ago. I never would have come here posting if I hadn't had all my objections answered first.
I've answered many of those objections here in the past two years but they were not well absorbed. People like you, Tom, look to my posts not for these answers but for ways you can trip me up.
"We should come to the realization that we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry".
I guess I am just not "mature" enough. Have to go back and see if I can "get it". Just another second-rate non-believing non-member..heh heh.
Honestly- I DO NOT- never did, never will- owe my life to any stinking second rate cult type blood-sucking "ministry". Never. Call me immature, call me stupid- call me deluded- anything you want- no friggin way.
Even a righteous, "God fearing" organization- I owe them NOTHING but to love- and even then, FREELY, without compulsion.
I vividly remember the fellow that shared Romans 10:9 with me. I do not OWE my life to him, either. Thankful he shared though.
How can you sell, or charge for something that is obviously FREE? Holy smokes- the new birth- eternal life- saved- "call it what you will"- is FREE. How DARE some bastard claim that you owe your life to him/his organization for it? Good grief- it is not even in YOUR power to give it away. The only thing you can do is show somebody else where to get it. I remember enough stuff- like God is the one who is in the business of "giving". Cripe, even HEALING is a "gift".
So- "here's the new birth, now you can operate manifestations- now you owe me". I think not.
Believe that, and I have a half a dozen bridges that you could pay me to have the "priviledge" to drive over.
"But, but, you don't own the bridge, nobody else has to pay..."
I suppose somebody could come up with a verse somewhere- ah, yes, Philemon. "neither do I tell thee that thou owest me your very soul besides.."
Was he "strong-arming" Philemon to accept Onesimus back? I don't buy that explanation. Paul exhorted FOR LOVES sake. Not manipulation, not to see what kind of dough he could get out of the guy. Not to see how many more "babes" he could "work over" in the motorcoach. More of a nice tender exhortation, "Before you axe the guy, just remember what God did for you for a moment".
Who do you owe your life too? 1. God almighty. He is the author of life. 2. Jesus Christ- he is the one who performed the redemption, paid the price. "Owing" yourself to anybody else is pure, unadulterated evil. Slavery, not too mention idolatry. They do not supply your need. And its the same stupid stuff churches have been doing for years- "if it wasn't for US, you'd be in a heap of dang". Oh well, I guess God Almighty is no bigger than a blood-sucking organization.
Unbelievable- I'm not buying it, at least any more.
Let me make this clear Mike, I don't care what vpw claimed about his work. That in itself does not make it god-breathed. He was not our Messiah and did not replace Christ.
Most of what HCW said to me I've heard before, and I've posted on before.
[Pages and pages of utter denial DO qualify as posting on a subject, I agree. ]
I'm getting to the point of not WANTING to hear the rejection of God and His blessings to us.
[Actually, you got yourself to the point of eschewing all viewpoints other than your own. When God chooses a method of blessing not endorsed by your theology, you reject that as well. So, you're at the point where you reject wanting to hear God and His blessings. ]
Please remember that I spent 27 years in the frame of mind of rejecting Dr's God given authority.
[Please remember that we consider your opinions of objective reality as skewed, and you've demonstrated that your recollection of your OWN posts has been inconsistent. Therefore, can your own evaluation of 27 years of your life POSSIBLY be fair? That part where you likened transcribing tape to print as being like transcribing Paul's letters-that was during your supposed period of thinking that pfal didn't descend from the heavens on a beam of light. ]
[That was a figure of speech.]
I not only hear those who speak against this Word here, but I remember saying to myself and out loud the same things.
["this Word"- not a Bible, but the collected writings of vpw, which Mike holds as "this Word".]
I've got the answers to the objections posted here, and HAD the answers 7 years ago.
[Your opinion-but evidence has not bourne this statement out.]
I never would have come here posting if I hadn't had all my objections answered first.
[Actually, you wore out your welcome everyone else.]
I've answered many of those objections here in the past two years but they were not well absorbed.
[Actually, the answers were laughable. There were answers like "vpw may have molested some women to toughen them up, maybe." That one was dropped after it didnt fly. Sometimes the answers changed radically. One day, vpw never plagiarized. Then, when that was debunked, the authors approved of the process. Then, when that was debunked, shame on the other authors for objecting to their work being plagiarized when God told vpw to rip them off. There were things like vpw listing himself as "author" on books he didn't write-like JCOP-which were group efforts. When that was exposed as intellectually dishonest, claims were made the other authors did the same. Then someone exposed that as a lie, period. Most dizzying is the status of the Bible. One day it's "unreliable fragments and tattered remnants", another they're "approximations", another they can bring you 'close". In between these have been periodic announcements by Mike that he's overcome all objections here, and out-debated everyone here and so on. ]
People like you, Tom, look to my posts not for these answers but for ways you can trip me up.
[Well, true answers being absent, he only has the content to draw from, which is how stumbles on your own part are found.
Besides, he gave his opinion on your post, which, by now, is hardly an isolated
opinion. Your longtime readers have had time to come to their own opinions.
Since their opinions tend to cluster around a few positions, all of which say
your Mikean pfal doctrine is error, that MIGHT tell you something.
At the very least, it might be a clue that maybe, just maybe, you're on the long
To the extent that people believed the 2000 year unique revelations, starting in 1942, that God gave Dr and Dr put into written form, those people got blessed.
The reason you didn't hear of these teachings being God-breathed is because you had your ears closed to it.
(snip)
Or you can close off your mind to this great blessing God has given us.
That, in short, is the essence of the Mikean pfal doctrine, Part I.
After the real Bible, the next real written Bible was given to vpw in the 20th century.
The reason why you believed all the times vpw said his stuff WASN'T from God,
and didn't notice that there were one or two places where the words can be isolated from
their context to suggest the entire contents were from God was some failing on your own
part.
A "closed mind" means not wildly embracing Mikean pfal in its entirety,
an "open mind" means ignoring the evidence, and making a snap decision rather than a
cold analysis.
BTW, HCW,
if you have the time this week,
can you go to page 83 or PFAL (I can post it in its entirety if you need it),
and tell us what it meant when you wrote it?
Mike's saying "Dr claimed PFAL is God-breathed."
Mind you,
we've already addressed this before (Goey, to be specific),
but I'd like an EXPERT's insight, and INSIDER's insight, if I can get it.
If you don't have time, or don't want to, I'll understand, but I'm sure I'm not the only
Holy cow- this "you owe me" crap went away with the Mosaic priesthood. Funny, you don't read about anybody "standing in da gap" in the vaunted epistles- except Jesus Christ. No wonder stupid vey "leadership" get so mad at people that have problems- they just cannot perform the job description they have taken upon themselves.
Oh well, I guess we're just supposed to keep paying, again, and again, and again.
It's never been my contention that Dr was our Messiah or that he replaced Christ. He was simply a man who put God's revelation into written form for us. I focus on the revelations, not on the man.
The reason I posted three of the clear passages where Dr CLAIMED to be giving us God-breathed teaching was NOT to prove to you that his claim is true.
The reason I posted those three passages was to prove that there were MANY things that you and others did not hear, but that DID get said.
Many things Dr taught us went over our heads and/or were forgotten. It's in these many things that the proof resides of Dr's claims being accurate.
By coming back to PFAL with a meek heart we can see these many things and be greatly blessed by God Who gave an abundance of His revelations to us in the PFAL written materials.
I have posted often on PFAL page 83, and will do so again.
On that page Dr admits that his own words were merely man-breathed and having no purity nor authority. But he also states that SOME of the words he writes were NOT his own, were taught to him by God, and THUS WERE were God-breathed, pure, and authoritative.
On that page we read: "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..."
Plain English dictates that he is saying here (in paraphrased form) "...of a necessity, SOME of what Wierwille writes is God-breathed."
Why "of a necessity" ? Because God had promised to teach him His Word like it had not been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others.
The phrase "not all" means "some."
I have discussed this passage for hours with one of Dr's editor's. By "editor" I mean one of the people who took the '67 film class transcript and produced from it the PFAL book, under Dr's supervision. When I quoted the passage to him, books closed, he immediately said "I remember THAT line."
Dr says it nearly the exact same way in the film class, and wanted the book to read exactly the way it does. Even though disagreeing with the truth of the statement, this editor did agree with my assessment of how the English used there boils down to "...of a necessity, SOME of what Wierwille writes is God-breathed."
"We should come to the realization that we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry".
That one HARDLY went over my head. Even giving it the mildest interpretation possible- "anybody who is anybody in the Christian world- or at least "mature" enough- should realize that this Almighty "ministry" is the source of all life, and good- and should be mature enough to recognize it and be willing to lick our boots and other parts as we see fit".
But I don't think that was what he was saying. "We are the AUTHORS of truth. You will not get the real truth on God or power anywhere else; don't bother even looking. Since we hold the only "one true word", WE take the place of "the absent Christ". You owe us everything".
This, at least I believe, is the real intended meaning.
Cripe, no matter what spin you put on it, its nuts.
Is it just me? ...or is anyone else picturing Mike right now... holding his hands over his ears and saying "na-na-na-NA-NA-NA-NAAA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"... ???
can you go to page 83 or PFAL (I can post it in its entirety if you need it),
and tell us what it meant when you wrote it?
Mike's saying "Dr claimed PFAL is God-breathed."
You know? I just finished a project & I have some time...
Actually, Mike had sent me an email a couple of weeks ago with the claiam that Vp had said on that page that his works were God Breathed.
It was Mike's response to what I said about that page that started me on my "this is insanity" tip.
The chapter, six, of PFAL where page 83 is found is about SCRIPTURE. The opening sentance of the chapter is:
"After establishing how the Word of God came into existence, the next step in our building process is to find out what is the function of His Word."
Vp mentions 2 Timothy 3:16, THEN goes on to say "All scripture from Genesis to Revelation..."
Next paragraph (pg 82) starts with:
"Many times a critic of the Bible comes along and says, "Well the Bible is not true.... the Bible really is just another book along with thte rest of them."
The senctence that is on top of pg 83 says:
"This is why the critic who comes from outside to the Word of God has no footing to stand on to judge The Word because The Word has already judged him."
Apparently, Mike is using this clause;
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..." to say that Vp said his work was, in fact God-breathed.
It just doesn't say that. The paragraph on pg 83 starts with "The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind or theory or ideology." The same paragraph ends with "... but the Scriptures - they are God Breathed."
This is AFTER he listed himself among others whose work is NOT the Scriptures.
Then the next page, "why doesn't Mike read the next page?" It reads:
"Jesus gave then the words which God gave to Him, the Scriptures, the Word of God."
"You come to the Word of God and let it speak for itself and then you reevaluate and readapt your living to the integrity and accuracy of God's Word."
You can't change the context of the statement into saying there is some hidden message saying this PFAL book is a God-breathed replacement for the scriptures.
Clearly Vp is saying it is NOT God breathed, His statement simply does not eliminate the possibility that God would work in him another time.
The word necessarily was a qualifier. Nothing more.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
42
42
104
94
Popular Days
Feb 22
44
Feb 28
40
Mar 11
40
Mar 1
34
Top Posters In This Topic
WordWolf 42 posts
HCW 42 posts
Mike 104 posts
Ham 94 posts
Popular Days
Feb 22 2005
44 posts
Feb 28 2005
40 posts
Mar 11 2005
40 posts
Mar 1 2005
34 posts
Popular Posts
Bolshevik
Remember the ROA everyone smiling stupid all day? Zombies. Just zombies. With snack tents.
Rocky
Not that I necessarily disagree with you two, but returning to the topic of the PFLAP class... it's all about removing uncertainty from us and replacing it with Victor Wierwille. He had ONE freak
Bolshevik
I can't say what Christian practices are. Any quote by LCM should be read as if he is yelling or at a low rumble leading up to the yelling . . . Certainly sounds like an inner conflict
Raf
I could have told you that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
But you weren't close to him. So how do we trust you? As for the others, you now say those closest to him have merit, so what about the poster who edited his articles, why does he carry no weight with you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Wierwille was lucid when he gave his last lost teaching, but not lucid when he made it abundantly clear that PFAL is not God-breathed.
Get with the program, Def.
Mike: "PFAL is God-breathed."
Wierwille: "No it's not."
Mike: The editing process was overseen by God.
PFAL's Editors: "No, He wasn't."
Who you gonna believe?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I don't consider it an entire waste either. The problem was just what it BECAME, or what it was promoted as. With PFAL vaunted to the status of "godhood"- and I'm thinking more of the whole series- if you didn't get results- if you couldn't sense every darn spurt this side of the mississippi, or if you were chronically sick for ANY reason, woe unto you. It surely can't be the doctrine's fault. Even though results or experiences were not guaranteed, they were EXPECTED.
That's the whole problem with this whole "PFAL is God-breathed, and perfect" concept. No results? The problem MUST lie with you. And if the leadership can't figure out the problem- you must be possessed or something.
I think it did not turn out to be the magical formula that guaranteed success that it was touted to be- it just did not live up to it's reputation.
But it did answer about eighty five percent of any question I ever did have about the bible. And the few decent keys to help me just plain read it were OK. A nice bible class that I got some truth out of would be a good assessment. Some truth- that I paid, and paid, and paid for again and again.
There was a time when we would answer questions, or at least try to get the answers for unanswered questions. At times, in the foundational class, I saw the head honcho go over twenty or more questions, without berating the asker. I observed that to become less and less of an occurence.
Seemed at my advanced class, my impression was that people were afraid to ask questions. At least one I know of was sent home for doing so- she had some objection to the "myth of the six million" concept. Twig times consisted of mainly rehashing the last session or two. No real questions were asked, only review to see if you're really "getting it". Just to make sure you could spout out all of the definitions right, retemorize more verses- it was very well "programmed".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
As far as the niceness concept.. I think a lot of it was missing in TWI, at least as I define it.
Sure, I disagree with other people almost every day of the week. I just don't hate them any more. In TWI, it was easier to label someone as deluded or possessed if they dared to disagree. Too easy.
Honestly, it took me some time to come to the realization that if somebody believed something different, or voiced a different opinion, that it was not necessarily of da debil. Really- it took some time away from Da Vey for a lot of the stupidity to wear off.
I have found that I can disagree with most people on almost any subject and still be friends.
Heck, even Mike- can't hate him. The old TWI "just let da debil have em" - don't even consider that, any more. Poetry works.. heh heh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
But back to PFAL- if it is equal to "the Word"- you gotta eat it all. "we should come to the realization that we owe our very lives to the ministry that taught us the word". Any yes, that one just happened to be printed in "the sacred text". Don't like the taste of that? Maybe you could use lots and lots of ketchup.
MY bible says the lord paid for me, not some blood sucking "ministry".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
I'll take cult-busters for $100 alex
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
Can anyone explain to me how I could work at TWI HQ for the better part of a decade and it took me being away from "the ministry" for about 17 years before I learned that PFAL was supposedly "God-Breathed?"
I tend to agree w/ Mr Hamma. I've never thought of PFAL as anything but "A" Bible class. Certainly not "THE premiere Bible class" nor could it be considered, under ANY circumstances equal to THE word from God.
No matter how good it may be, it just isn't complete enough to replace the Bible. The Bible comprehensievly covers EVERY principle involved in this life and gives us a bird's eye view into glimpses of the next life.
I HAVE mastered it. Long before Vp's last teaching, "The Joy of Service" which he delivered quite a few times during his last days. It seemed like everywhere he went he was teaching that same teaching. He WAS trying to make a point with it, which I saw as being...
"There IS a JOY to service, people."
Personally, I've tried to, and feel I've done a decent job of discovering that there IS a JOY to serving people.
I heard some things in PFAL that I hadn't heard before. I felt the concept that "Jesus either told the truth or he lied..." was novel. Logical. I had never seen the Bible approached from a logical POV as one would math or science. Most approached God & the Bible & church from a religious POV that I always found idiotic, but I was afraid to challenge it because I was afraid of what God might do to me.
Read it for yourself. That was one of the biggest things I got from PFAL. "Chapter & verse, please." was how they spoke of handling religious idiocy. I was willing to accepth the concept that God was smart enough to put "signs," and other things in the Bible that would help each of us to understand His Word & Will for our lives.
That's what I took from PFAL each of the 28 times I took it before I stopped counting... Read it for yourself. I now read it for myself. It works. I've found it to be true & faithful. As I've grown in God's word, through careful study I now see how my thinking patterns have changed. I now see statements like, "you own your life to the ministry that taught you the word," as self-serving BS.
Life has become, and is becoming more & more simple. God teaches us His word, regardless of the "ministry" we "fellowship" with. You see, the BIBLE tells us that. Reading & studying it DOES actually "renew" one's mind. We must believe IT, not a religious version of it.
This is why (IMO) God told us of how "these were more noble than those" ... in that "they searched the scriptures whether thse things were so."
AFTER being taught, they "read it for themselves." I figure I can become "more noble" if I read it for myself.
++++++++++++++++++++++
As an artist, I do lots of things that I feel are inspired by God. We all do "God-Inspired" things every day. There may be some God Inspired things about PFAL. Even if so, it is no more God's Word to our generation than (fill in the blank). There is a BIG difference.
PFAL is not living and energetic. There is nothing about it that can heal a soul or bring a person from death to eternal life. Its primary redeeming quality is that it MENTIONED God's word. It CONTAINS some scriptures. It talks ABOUT God and how to come to your own understanding of His Word. Those are GOOD things.
It also endears people to a man who, evidently, had major spiritual problems of his own. The abuses that lie in the wake of his "ministry" are horribly hideous. I can't blame anyone who feels they have no further need of PFAL. VP hurt many. Thats a BAD thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
HCW,
People who trusted in the man were disappointed.
To the extent that people believed the 2000 year unique revelations, starting in 1942, that God gave Dr and Dr put into written form, those people got blessed.
The reason you didn't hear of these teachings being God-breathed is because you had your ears closed to it.
You can open them to what is written on pages 34 and 116 of TNDC, and page 83 of PFAL and see that Dr claimed PFAL is God-breathed.
Or you can close off your mind to this great blessing God has given us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Is it just me? ...or is anyone else picturing Mike right now... holding his hands over his ears and saying "na-na-na-NA-NA-NA-NAAA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"... ???
anyone else get that mind picture?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
I'm not picturing that, and I am hearing you.
Most of what HCW said to me I've heard before, and I've posted on before.
I'm getting to the point of not WANTING to hear the rejection of God and His blessings to us.
Please remember that I spent 27 years in the frame of mind of rejecting Dr's God given authority.
I not only hear those who speak against this Word here, but I remember saying to myself and out loud the same things.
I've got the answers to the objections posted here, and HAD the answers 7 years ago. I never would have come here posting if I hadn't had all my objections answered first.
I've answered many of those objections here in the past two years but they were not well absorbed. People like you, Tom, look to my posts not for these answers but for ways you can trip me up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
"We should come to the realization that we owe our VERY LIVES to the ministry".
I guess I am just not "mature" enough. Have to go back and see if I can "get it". Just another second-rate non-believing non-member..heh heh.
Honestly- I DO NOT- never did, never will- owe my life to any stinking second rate cult type blood-sucking "ministry". Never. Call me immature, call me stupid- call me deluded- anything you want- no friggin way.
Even a righteous, "God fearing" organization- I owe them NOTHING but to love- and even then, FREELY, without compulsion.
I vividly remember the fellow that shared Romans 10:9 with me. I do not OWE my life to him, either. Thankful he shared though.
How can you sell, or charge for something that is obviously FREE? Holy smokes- the new birth- eternal life- saved- "call it what you will"- is FREE. How DARE some bastard claim that you owe your life to him/his organization for it? Good grief- it is not even in YOUR power to give it away. The only thing you can do is show somebody else where to get it. I remember enough stuff- like God is the one who is in the business of "giving". Cripe, even HEALING is a "gift".
So- "here's the new birth, now you can operate manifestations- now you owe me". I think not.
Believe that, and I have a half a dozen bridges that you could pay me to have the "priviledge" to drive over.
"But, but, you don't own the bridge, nobody else has to pay..."
I suppose somebody could come up with a verse somewhere- ah, yes, Philemon. "neither do I tell thee that thou owest me your very soul besides.."
Was he "strong-arming" Philemon to accept Onesimus back? I don't buy that explanation. Paul exhorted FOR LOVES sake. Not manipulation, not to see what kind of dough he could get out of the guy. Not to see how many more "babes" he could "work over" in the motorcoach. More of a nice tender exhortation, "Before you axe the guy, just remember what God did for you for a moment".
Who do you owe your life too? 1. God almighty. He is the author of life. 2. Jesus Christ- he is the one who performed the redemption, paid the price. "Owing" yourself to anybody else is pure, unadulterated evil. Slavery, not too mention idolatry. They do not supply your need. And its the same stupid stuff churches have been doing for years- "if it wasn't for US, you'd be in a heap of dang". Oh well, I guess God Almighty is no bigger than a blood-sucking organization.
Unbelievable- I'm not buying it, at least any more.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
Let me make this clear Mike, I don't care what vpw claimed about his work. That in itself does not make it god-breathed. He was not our Messiah and did not replace Christ.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface again...]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
That, in short, is the essence of the Mikean pfal doctrine, Part I.
After the real Bible, the next real written Bible was given to vpw in the 20th century.
The reason why you believed all the times vpw said his stuff WASN'T from God,
and didn't notice that there were one or two places where the words can be isolated from
their context to suggest the entire contents were from God was some failing on your own
part.
A "closed mind" means not wildly embracing Mikean pfal in its entirety,
an "open mind" means ignoring the evidence, and making a snap decision rather than a
cold analysis.
BTW, HCW,
if you have the time this week,
can you go to page 83 or PFAL (I can post it in its entirety if you need it),
and tell us what it meant when you wrote it?
Mike's saying "Dr claimed PFAL is God-breathed."
Mind you,
we've already addressed this before (Goey, to be specific),
but I'd like an EXPERT's insight, and INSIDER's insight, if I can get it.
If you don't have time, or don't want to, I'll understand, but I'm sure I'm not the only
one who'd be thankful for your input on this.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Holy cow- this "you owe me" crap went away with the Mosaic priesthood. Funny, you don't read about anybody "standing in da gap" in the vaunted epistles- except Jesus Christ. No wonder stupid vey "leadership" get so mad at people that have problems- they just cannot perform the job description they have taken upon themselves.
Oh well, I guess we're just supposed to keep paying, again, and again, and again.
Sad. Really sad. Good grief..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
def59,
It's never been my contention that Dr was our Messiah or that he replaced Christ. He was simply a man who put God's revelation into written form for us. I focus on the revelations, not on the man.
The reason I posted three of the clear passages where Dr CLAIMED to be giving us God-breathed teaching was NOT to prove to you that his claim is true.
The reason I posted those three passages was to prove that there were MANY things that you and others did not hear, but that DID get said.
Many things Dr taught us went over our heads and/or were forgotten. It's in these many things that the proof resides of Dr's claims being accurate.
By coming back to PFAL with a meek heart we can see these many things and be greatly blessed by God Who gave an abundance of His revelations to us in the PFAL written materials.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
WordWolf,
I have posted often on PFAL page 83, and will do so again.
On that page Dr admits that his own words were merely man-breathed and having no purity nor authority. But he also states that SOME of the words he writes were NOT his own, were taught to him by God, and THUS WERE were God-breathed, pure, and authoritative.
On that page we read: "Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..."
Plain English dictates that he is saying here (in paraphrased form) "...of a necessity, SOME of what Wierwille writes is God-breathed."
Why "of a necessity" ? Because God had promised to teach him His Word like it had not been known since the first century if he'd teach it to others.
The phrase "not all" means "some."
I have discussed this passage for hours with one of Dr's editor's. By "editor" I mean one of the people who took the '67 film class transcript and produced from it the PFAL book, under Dr's supervision. When I quoted the passage to him, books closed, he immediately said "I remember THAT line."
Dr says it nearly the exact same way in the film class, and wanted the book to read exactly the way it does. Even though disagreeing with the truth of the statement, this editor did agree with my assessment of how the English used there boils down to "...of a necessity, SOME of what Wierwille writes is God-breathed."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
That one HARDLY went over my head. Even giving it the mildest interpretation possible- "anybody who is anybody in the Christian world- or at least "mature" enough- should realize that this Almighty "ministry" is the source of all life, and good- and should be mature enough to recognize it and be willing to lick our boots and other parts as we see fit".
That is the mild interpretation.
My answer- "Hogwash".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
But I don't think that was what he was saying. "We are the AUTHORS of truth. You will not get the real truth on God or power anywhere else; don't bother even looking. Since we hold the only "one true word", WE take the place of "the absent Christ". You owe us everything".
This, at least I believe, is the real intended meaning.
Cripe, no matter what spin you put on it, its nuts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
You mean you're just now getting that picture?
Mike: PFAL is God-breathed.
Wierwille: No it isn't.
Mike: God oversaw the editing process.
Editors: No, He didn't.
Who you gonna believe?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Why, we are supposed to "believe the unbelievable" ya know..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HCW
You know? I just finished a project & I have some time...
Actually, Mike had sent me an email a couple of weeks ago with the claiam that Vp had said on that page that his works were God Breathed.
It was Mike's response to what I said about that page that started me on my "this is insanity" tip.
The chapter, six, of PFAL where page 83 is found is about SCRIPTURE. The opening sentance of the chapter is:
"After establishing how the Word of God came into existence, the next step in our building process is to find out what is the function of His Word."
Vp mentions 2 Timothy 3:16, THEN goes on to say "All scripture from Genesis to Revelation..."
Next paragraph (pg 82) starts with:
"Many times a critic of the Bible comes along and says, "Well the Bible is not true.... the Bible really is just another book along with thte rest of them."
The senctence that is on top of pg 83 says:
"This is why the critic who comes from outside to the Word of God has no footing to stand on to judge The Word because The Word has already judged him."
Apparently, Mike is using this clause;
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed..." to say that Vp said his work was, in fact God-breathed.
It just doesn't say that. The paragraph on pg 83 starts with "The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind or theory or ideology." The same paragraph ends with "... but the Scriptures - they are God Breathed."
This is AFTER he listed himself among others whose work is NOT the Scriptures.
Then the next page, "why doesn't Mike read the next page?" It reads:
"Jesus gave then the words which God gave to Him, the Scriptures, the Word of God."
"You come to the Word of God and let it speak for itself and then you reevaluate and readapt your living to the integrity and accuracy of God's Word."
You can't change the context of the statement into saying there is some hidden message saying this PFAL book is a God-breathed replacement for the scriptures.
Clearly Vp is saying it is NOT God breathed, His statement simply does not eliminate the possibility that God would work in him another time.
The word necessarily was a qualifier. Nothing more.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.