Where it gets even more into hypocrisy and abuse is you have people who are in leadership positions and Corps that actively browbeat others about debt, teach on it consistently - they are required to teach on debt consistently and report back on it, and these individuals THEMSELVES LIVE IN HOUSES WHERE THE MORTGAGE IS HELD BY A RELATIVE!!!! So mommy, daddy, or a brother buys a house, pays the mortgage, and little Corps mini-Napolean lives there while taking advantage of it.
We had a twig coordinator in our city who was held up as an example of how to own a home without going into debt, but they never pointed out that he owned the house because he inherited it when his parents died in a horrible car accident. He was always being asked to teach about ownership without debt, and no one was tactless enough to point out (although we all knew) how he came to own his house.
Another recurring situation was the every-so-often person who got involved with TWI at that point where their home was paid or almost paid off. These people would also be held up as shining examples of living debt-free, even though their wealth, their home, their positions were gotten by going into debt.
The practice of owning without really owning reminds me of the orthodox Jews who get around the many Sabbath restrictions by stretching definitions. Like stringing wires between dwellings for blocks and blocks so that they are considered "one dwelling" and they don't technically break whatever rule it is they're trying to get around. In Israel among the observant Jews it's not unheard of to involve non-Jews in financial transactions in order to bypass the rule that debts be forgiven and property revert to the original owner after 7 years
That reminds me of the Amish, who aren't supposed to have phones in their homes. Instead, they have a phone booth installed at the crossroad and all the neighboring farmers leave their homes to use it.
We also had a guy in our area that owned his home outright and he was lauded as a shining example. Of course, he was only able to do this because he sold his other house for a decent profit when he was told he needed to sell. He then bought a smaller cheaper house outright. He also was a successful business owner and may have had to borrow money at some point for that I'm sure.
There are a few people that they do this with. But it seems no matter how small that number of people is it doesn't change the simple fact for the followers that it is indeed possible. It reminds me of a scene in the movie "Dumb and Dumber" where Jim Carry's character asks the leading lady what the chances are of her going on a date with him. She says about a million to one. He says, "so your saying there's a chance!"
TWI never spoke against "obligations". There were plenty of things that could fall into that category according to them. Rent on an apartment. Another thing which they considered an obligation and not a debt was child support.
I'm never inside their minds (praise God) but I wonder if part of what you paid in the payment was for Interest...that made it a debt and if all of it was going to the landlord and you weren't paying any interest on it...it was an obligation.
Credit cards were debt...but I imagine that Lay Away, which is coming back now....is an obligation.
To us....$700 goes out and whether it goes out for rent of mortgage we don't care...it's our money spent. Of course we'd rather spend that $$ on mortgage because in the end we'd have something tangible)
I'm not saying they were/are right. I'd rather spend money on mortgage than rent anytime....and if I had to finance a decent car (not necessarily brand new) I probably would rather than sink in a hole every other month on repairs. I just think this may have been how they determined what was what. Either way....they had no business meandering in our accounts and dictating how we spent out monies.
TWI never spoke against "obligations". There were plenty of things that could fall into that category according to them. Rent on an apartment. Another thing which they considered an obligation and not a debt was child support.
Of course that is being intellectually dishonest to split those hairs. This way a leader or some committee somewhere can meet and determine whether something was a "debt" or an "obligation". The words "debt" and "obligation" are synonyms, and there is no real distinction between them. The Rom. 13:8 verse is more accurately translated obligation, as the direct context includes giving honor to whom honor is due, which has zero to do with finances.
I know for a fact that they have approved car leasing as kosher. So the interest thing is a little out the window with that fact.
An anecdote - I knew someone who would consistently talk to quite a few audiences about "their inheritance". This person gave the impression they wanted their parents to die rather than spending "the inheritance". It was absolutely morbid, and visibly money hungry and a horrible example. They were fellowship coordinators.
I don't remember interest being the crucial factor in determining if something as debt or not. Rents, leases, things like that were not considered debt, while mortgages and loans were. I think that they rationalized leases and rent as that you were paying for temporary use or access and not claiming ownership of something when you hadn't fully paid for it. Although it seemed that this policy was full of contradictions and loopholes, so I'm sure someone will think of an exception!
A few years ago Rico Magnelli was tasked to mouthpiece the final answer on the subject with a half-baked teaching presented to the way corps. I have forgotten most of it but his final conclusions were the same ole' party lines we've all heard before. Once it was taught it was expected that the corps would "study" the material, buy into it 100%, and then go teach this half baked "truth" to all the dissidents. Perhaps someone with a better memory than mine can recount some of the details?
I do remember the teaching had a lot of old testament verses leading up to to Romans 13, as if Romans 13 was a continuation of the old testament. The underlying thread was debt was sin. They refrained from splitting hairs identifying debt in this teaching. That was left to the local leadership to quietly determine in conjunction with the way of the usa / directors. They have it set up so the issue is forced when someone tries to go above the intermediate class. Debt = no participation! They have made it so hard for people to get the advanced class they have effectively choked themselves of new advanced class grads, way disciples, staff, and way corps. Idiots.
I think at the essence of it all was that they knew if you had long term obligations, commitments, a sense of permanence--- you would be harder to manipulate, less likely to jump at their beck and call. This, I think, played a far greater role than the actual money.
In a very direct way --- Way Corps Sponsorship was a way to put your sponsors in debt. If you were Way Corps - they (your sponsors) were surety for your payments --- THAT IS,... unless you were paying your own way through the Corps.
I think at the essence of it all was that they knew if you had long term obligations, commitments, a sense of permanence--- you would be harder to manipulate, less likely to jump at their beck and call. This, I think, played a far greater role than the actual money.
Makes sense to me. The real reason is never too difficult to discern when dealing with these simpletons, in spite of their efforts to keep it all confidential.
In a very direct way --- Way Corps Sponsorship was a way to put your sponsors in debt. If you were Way Corps - they (your sponsors) were surety for your payments --- THAT IS,... unless you were paying your own way through the Corps.
I don't think you were allowed to pay your own way through the corps, at least not in the 1970s. Supposedly, it was some kind of exercise in "believing" to find sponsors. Anyhow, as you said, didn't that theoretically put the sponsors in debt? (They signed on for long term financial obligations.) The only difference I see is in the ability to exact a penalty for default. What were they going to do if you reneged on sponsorship, repossess your WOW_Mobile?
A few years ago Rico Magnelli was tasked to mouthpiece the final answer on the subject with a half-baked teaching presented to the way corps. I have forgotten most of it but his final conclusions were the same ole' party lines we've all heard before. Once it was taught it was expected that the corps would "study" the material, buy into it 100%, and then go teach this half baked "truth" to all the dissidents. Perhaps someone with a better memory than mine can recount some of the details?
That was the biggest dumb@$$ excuse for research I ever saw. Huge leaps of logic between Old Testament and New Testament that you could drive a truck through. It was presented in the sense of being "proven research" and a period of time was given for other viewpoints. When other viewpoints were given, people were dropped from the Corps and moved out of their responsibilities. Biggest fr1cken Stalinistic approach to Biblical research ever. R1co has long ago traded his soul for his position, being a corporate shill for a bunch of derelicts. He really should get a life, but his viewpoint has always been a zealot to the utmost extremes beyond anything common sense could reach.
I do remember the teaching had a lot of old testament verses leading up to to Romans 13, as if Romans 13 was a continuation of the old testament. The underlying thread was debt was sin. They refrained from splitting hairs identifying debt in this teaching. That was left to the local leadership to quietly determine in conjunction with the way of the usa / directors. They have it set up so the issue is forced when someone tries to go above the intermediate class. Debt = no participation! They have made it so hard for people to get the advanced class they have effectively choked themselves of new advanced class grads, way disciples, staff, and way corps. Idiots.
Their stance is poetic justice. They have hamstrung themselves from ever reaching an educated middle class with any sense of logic.
You were always able to pay your own way, through the 1970's.
I'm only going by what one particular limb leader told me when I asked about it. But, yeah, if someone did actually hand them a fistful of dead presidents, I don't think they would have refused.
Yeah, financial realities and relationships is what it boiled down to waysider. Many of the reasonings developed out of need - want to do this/I'd like to do this - how to finance it then. Most were younger people, early 20's at the oldest and relationships in the Way in the 70's were young and new too, by nature of the growth.
The program cost money, some financing had to occur. And as a sidenote, I'm sure there are many who never completely paid in full by the end of the program and were signed off anyway, the Way Inc. picking up the tab.
Mi madre used to give an extra 15% when giving someone a gift, cause you were supposed to ABS . . . and you should ABS on all your increase. So if you give someone a gift, they are automatically in debt to God for the ABS . . .
. . . maybe Mr. God will come up with some tithe-sheltered accounts someday . . . help reduce paperwork or something . . .
or maybe you could pay ABS in advance, an ABS/debt amnesty day . . . didn't they cancel debts in the OT? or was that just for our learning?
One of the stupidest things that I ever heard regarding debt was when the Way Corps branch (or maybe Limb) leader told my son that he was in debt because he was going to have to pay the IRS at tax time rather than getting a refund (he worked several low-paying part-time jobs - anyone whose been in that position knows that it often causes you to have to pay rather than get a refund) - while just a year earlier Howard Allen stood up at the ROA and said that you should strive break even or pay in a little and not try to get a big refund since refund are generally just your own money being returned to you after the government used it interest-free all year.
Exactly. That's terrible advice your son was given, their usual nit picking over a gnat's definition of "debt" versus simple, common sense. If you end up owing some, you just pay it. It's idiocy to plan on paying in anymore than you expect to owe for the very reason HA gave. Everyone knows that. It's kinda nice to get a refund check but it's bad money management to pay any substantial amount over what you calculate to owe over a year's time, knowing that's your money and you won't be able to use it for an entire year until it's released by the IRS.
Tax "debt" is calculated at the end of a calendar year . All you do through withholding deductions in a paycheck is estimate the total tax amount owed based on gross income in that check. Tax liability is calculated based on many other factors not directly represented in that check and that are calculated from an entire year of living.
If a person took that same "refund" money, say 100 bucks a month, and at the minimum put it into a savings account and gained some interest on it and had it available to pay an outstanding amount at filing, they'd at least have use of their money.
The Way's geniuses should be avoided at all costs.
I remember being asked to itemize my debt! Who, how much etc They wanted me to provide the source of my income as well and when I challenged that.... well let's just say I was 'watched' there after. Didn't stay around long after that. I didn't think it was anyone's business and didn't see how it effected my love for God or my stand.
While some of those concepts are good advice FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO DO ON THEIR OWN, for a ministry and person to interject themselves into another's life to track that along with income and make decisions for another or dictate to another what they should do is not a CHRISTIAN doctrine, it is a DESIRE FOR CONTROL. That is LUST.
Bunch of money grubbing bastages. I hope they're happy, as they sit there in Cornfield, USA, counting their 54 million dollars worth of golden eggs that all we silly gooses laid for them.
Welcome Koffee Kups! I'm glad that you were using your noodle then. I wish I had used mine oh so many years ago.
Of course you're right that your income (and your debts, too) are nobody's business but yours. You saved yourself so much trouble. I'm glad to see you here at the Cafe. Enjoy yourself.!
The Way Ministry is a case of a bunch of people that did in fact - kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
It is now run by a frightened group of people (the remaining salaried workers)
&
then there's the volunteers.
Most of them that are any good will eventually part company with The Way when they figure out how they're being used to feed a corrupt leadership, Even leaders and staff will.
The rotton ones will stay if they can find a way to take advantage of the situation they find themselves in. The subject here is Debt and I'm not just running an end run around the subject. The smaller The Way Ministry is, the more important is becomes to them to push on people for ABS. 10% and you're safe from M&A or today's equivalent (excommunication,... lol) ~ you're not standing with the household now, until you pony up the 20% after all........
Beyond Rent, Bills, Taxes and reasonable expenses, the average person is lucky to have 20% of their income as disposable. When it gets to the point that your ABS can't be forthcoming (God forbid anything unexpected happens),.... well then, your ABS becomes your debt, your standing with the "Household" is threatened. You live in fear that they won't want you anymore, that they will come after you for the money you don't have (shouldn't have bought those moonpies...).
Your debt becomes something which the Way Ministry fabricated, You give it grudgingly, because the people in leadership roles demand it. Oh - nicely at first, maybe you just need some more teaching,... something to read....
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Oakspear
Another recurring situation was the every-so-often person who got involved with TWI at that point where their home was paid or almost paid off. These people would also be held up as shining examples of living debt-free, even though their wealth, their home, their positions were gotten by going into debt.
The practice of owning without really owning reminds me of the orthodox Jews who get around the many Sabbath restrictions by stretching definitions. Like stringing wires between dwellings for blocks and blocks so that they are considered "one dwelling" and they don't technically break whatever rule it is they're trying to get around. In Israel among the observant Jews it's not unheard of to involve non-Jews in financial transactions in order to bypass the rule that debts be forgiven and property revert to the original owner after 7 years
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waysider
Bending Rules
That reminds me of the Amish, who aren't supposed to have phones in their homes. Instead, they have a phone booth installed at the crossroad and all the neighboring farmers leave their homes to use it.
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lindyhopper
We also had a guy in our area that owned his home outright and he was lauded as a shining example. Of course, he was only able to do this because he sold his other house for a decent profit when he was told he needed to sell. He then bought a smaller cheaper house outright. He also was a successful business owner and may have had to borrow money at some point for that I'm sure.
There are a few people that they do this with. But it seems no matter how small that number of people is it doesn't change the simple fact for the followers that it is indeed possible. It reminds me of a scene in the movie "Dumb and Dumber" where Jim Carry's character asks the leading lady what the chances are of her going on a date with him. She says about a million to one. He says, "so your saying there's a chance!"
"Don't stop..... believin'!"
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krys
TWI never spoke against "obligations". There were plenty of things that could fall into that category according to them. Rent on an apartment. Another thing which they considered an obligation and not a debt was child support.
I'm never inside their minds (praise God) but I wonder if part of what you paid in the payment was for Interest...that made it a debt and if all of it was going to the landlord and you weren't paying any interest on it...it was an obligation.
Credit cards were debt...but I imagine that Lay Away, which is coming back now....is an obligation.
To us....$700 goes out and whether it goes out for rent of mortgage we don't care...it's our money spent. Of course we'd rather spend that $$ on mortgage because in the end we'd have something tangible)
I'm not saying they were/are right. I'd rather spend money on mortgage than rent anytime....and if I had to finance a decent car (not necessarily brand new) I probably would rather than sink in a hole every other month on repairs. I just think this may have been how they determined what was what. Either way....they had no business meandering in our accounts and dictating how we spent out monies.
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chockfull
Of course that is being intellectually dishonest to split those hairs. This way a leader or some committee somewhere can meet and determine whether something was a "debt" or an "obligation". The words "debt" and "obligation" are synonyms, and there is no real distinction between them. The Rom. 13:8 verse is more accurately translated obligation, as the direct context includes giving honor to whom honor is due, which has zero to do with finances.
I know for a fact that they have approved car leasing as kosher. So the interest thing is a little out the window with that fact.
An anecdote - I knew someone who would consistently talk to quite a few audiences about "their inheritance". This person gave the impression they wanted their parents to die rather than spending "the inheritance". It was absolutely morbid, and visibly money hungry and a horrible example. They were fellowship coordinators.
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Oakspear
I don't remember interest being the crucial factor in determining if something as debt or not. Rents, leases, things like that were not considered debt, while mortgages and loans were. I think that they rationalized leases and rent as that you were paying for temporary use or access and not claiming ownership of something when you hadn't fully paid for it. Although it seemed that this policy was full of contradictions and loopholes, so I'm sure someone will think of an exception!
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OldSkool
A few years ago Rico Magnelli was tasked to mouthpiece the final answer on the subject with a half-baked teaching presented to the way corps. I have forgotten most of it but his final conclusions were the same ole' party lines we've all heard before. Once it was taught it was expected that the corps would "study" the material, buy into it 100%, and then go teach this half baked "truth" to all the dissidents. Perhaps someone with a better memory than mine can recount some of the details?
I do remember the teaching had a lot of old testament verses leading up to to Romans 13, as if Romans 13 was a continuation of the old testament. The underlying thread was debt was sin. They refrained from splitting hairs identifying debt in this teaching. That was left to the local leadership to quietly determine in conjunction with the way of the usa / directors. They have it set up so the issue is forced when someone tries to go above the intermediate class. Debt = no participation! They have made it so hard for people to get the advanced class they have effectively choked themselves of new advanced class grads, way disciples, staff, and way corps. Idiots.
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waysider
Just my opinion
I think at the essence of it all was that they knew if you had long term obligations, commitments, a sense of permanence--- you would be harder to manipulate, less likely to jump at their beck and call. This, I think, played a far greater role than the actual money.
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Gen-2
In a very direct way --- Way Corps Sponsorship was a way to put your sponsors in debt. If you were Way Corps - they (your sponsors) were surety for your payments --- THAT IS,... unless you were paying your own way through the Corps.
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OldSkool
Makes sense to me. The real reason is never too difficult to discern when dealing with these simpletons, in spite of their efforts to keep it all confidential.
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waysider
I don't think you were allowed to pay your own way through the corps, at least not in the 1970s. Supposedly, it was some kind of exercise in "believing" to find sponsors. Anyhow, as you said, didn't that theoretically put the sponsors in debt? (They signed on for long term financial obligations.) The only difference I see is in the ability to exact a penalty for default. What were they going to do if you reneged on sponsorship, repossess your WOW_Mobile?
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socks
unless you were paying your own way through the Corps.
I don't think you were allowed to pay your own way through the corps, at least not in the 1970s
You were always able to pay your own way, through the 1970's.
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chockfull
That was the biggest dumb@$$ excuse for research I ever saw. Huge leaps of logic between Old Testament and New Testament that you could drive a truck through. It was presented in the sense of being "proven research" and a period of time was given for other viewpoints. When other viewpoints were given, people were dropped from the Corps and moved out of their responsibilities. Biggest fr1cken Stalinistic approach to Biblical research ever. R1co has long ago traded his soul for his position, being a corporate shill for a bunch of derelicts. He really should get a life, but his viewpoint has always been a zealot to the utmost extremes beyond anything common sense could reach.
Their stance is poetic justice. They have hamstrung themselves from ever reaching an educated middle class with any sense of logic.
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waysider
I'm only going by what one particular limb leader told me when I asked about it. But, yeah, if someone did actually hand them a fistful of dead presidents, I don't think they would have refused.
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socks
Yeah, financial realities and relationships is what it boiled down to waysider. Many of the reasonings developed out of need - want to do this/I'd like to do this - how to finance it then. Most were younger people, early 20's at the oldest and relationships in the Way in the 70's were young and new too, by nature of the growth.
The program cost money, some financing had to occur. And as a sidenote, I'm sure there are many who never completely paid in full by the end of the program and were signed off anyway, the Way Inc. picking up the tab.
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Bolshevik
Mi madre used to give an extra 15% when giving someone a gift, cause you were supposed to ABS . . . and you should ABS on all your increase. So if you give someone a gift, they are automatically in debt to God for the ABS . . .
. . . maybe Mr. God will come up with some tithe-sheltered accounts someday . . . help reduce paperwork or something . . .
or maybe you could pay ABS in advance, an ABS/debt amnesty day . . . didn't they cancel debts in the OT? or was that just for our learning?
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Twinky
Debt...what they say we "not members" owe them.
Well, we owe God, but as he has no hands but our hands ... we can jolly well hand over the money to TWI.
But what about their debt to us?
We "owe" them money because of the "increase" we have acquired.
As TWI might have it - we have that increase because of the Word they've taught us.
I'm wondering if we paid in advance.
Aren't they in debt to us? Isn't it about time TWI started teaching some honest "Word"?
Then, maybe, everyone would benefit.
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socks
One of the stupidest things that I ever heard regarding debt was when the Way Corps branch (or maybe Limb) leader told my son that he was in debt because he was going to have to pay the IRS at tax time rather than getting a refund (he worked several low-paying part-time jobs - anyone whose been in that position knows that it often causes you to have to pay rather than get a refund) - while just a year earlier Howard Allen stood up at the ROA and said that you should strive break even or pay in a little and not try to get a big refund since refund are generally just your own money being returned to you after the government used it interest-free all year.
Exactly. That's terrible advice your son was given, their usual nit picking over a gnat's definition of "debt" versus simple, common sense. If you end up owing some, you just pay it. It's idiocy to plan on paying in anymore than you expect to owe for the very reason HA gave. Everyone knows that. It's kinda nice to get a refund check but it's bad money management to pay any substantial amount over what you calculate to owe over a year's time, knowing that's your money and you won't be able to use it for an entire year until it's released by the IRS.
Tax "debt" is calculated at the end of a calendar year . All you do through withholding deductions in a paycheck is estimate the total tax amount owed based on gross income in that check. Tax liability is calculated based on many other factors not directly represented in that check and that are calculated from an entire year of living.
If a person took that same "refund" money, say 100 bucks a month, and at the minimum put it into a savings account and gained some interest on it and had it available to pay an outstanding amount at filing, they'd at least have use of their money.
The Way's geniuses should be avoided at all costs.
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KoffeeKups
I remember being asked to itemize my debt! Who, how much etc They wanted me to provide the source of my income as well and when I challenged that.... well let's just say I was 'watched' there after. Didn't stay around long after that. I didn't think it was anyone's business and didn't see how it effected my love for God or my stand.
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chockfull
While some of those concepts are good advice FOR AN INDIVIDUAL TO DO ON THEIR OWN, for a ministry and person to interject themselves into another's life to track that along with income and make decisions for another or dictate to another what they should do is not a CHRISTIAN doctrine, it is a DESIRE FOR CONTROL. That is LUST.
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waysider
Bunch of money grubbing bastages. I hope they're happy, as they sit there in Cornfield, USA, counting their 54 million dollars worth of golden eggs that all we silly gooses laid for them.
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krys
Welcome Koffee Kups! I'm glad that you were using your noodle then. I wish I had used mine oh so many years ago.
Of course you're right that your income (and your debts, too) are nobody's business but yours. You saved yourself so much trouble. I'm glad to see you here at the Cafe. Enjoy yourself.!
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Gen-2
The Way Ministry is a case of a bunch of people that did in fact - kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
It is now run by a frightened group of people (the remaining salaried workers)
&
then there's the volunteers.
Most of them that are any good will eventually part company with The Way when they figure out how they're being used to feed a corrupt leadership, Even leaders and staff will.
The rotton ones will stay if they can find a way to take advantage of the situation they find themselves in. The subject here is Debt and I'm not just running an end run around the subject. The smaller The Way Ministry is, the more important is becomes to them to push on people for ABS. 10% and you're safe from M&A or today's equivalent (excommunication,... lol) ~ you're not standing with the household now, until you pony up the 20% after all........
Beyond Rent, Bills, Taxes and reasonable expenses, the average person is lucky to have 20% of their income as disposable. When it gets to the point that your ABS can't be forthcoming (God forbid anything unexpected happens),.... well then, your ABS becomes your debt, your standing with the "Household" is threatened. You live in fear that they won't want you anymore, that they will come after you for the money you don't have (shouldn't have bought those moonpies...).
Your debt becomes something which the Way Ministry fabricated, You give it grudgingly, because the people in leadership roles demand it. Oh - nicely at first, maybe you just need some more teaching,... something to read....
It's exactly the opposite of what God intended.
Especially if the person in question is poor.
Who shall seperate us from the love of God?
The Way's Collection Agency.......?
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waysider
(shouldn't have bought those moonpies...).
One can never have too many MoonPies!
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