So what was TWI's position on holding a home mortgage? Not allowed?
Soul Searcher,
I left TWI in early 1996. In about 1994/95, it became, according to Craig, "debt" to have a home mortgage. Before that, it was not. The "goalposts" were indeed, always changing to fit TWI's greed for power and cash.
I personally knew of many people who sold their homes and started renting due to this policy.
One couple owned their home free & clear (possibly inherited) but owned several rental properties from which they derived a good income...sold 'em all.
"No debt" policy was in earlier than you say, Oak. I know in the mid-80s people who wouldn't use a credit card unless they could pay it off immediately (next day) - because of the "owe no man anything" teaching.
No debt came in very heavy about 1992, latest 1993. Probably fulminations before that.
As to home mortgages, VPW started it off, really. There was a mortgage over ?Emporia? and he didn't like it, said it was wasteful of ABS and it was always something that money had to be found for first and foremost because of the threat of foreclosure if the mortgage wasn't paid. When the mortgage was paid off, the mortgage deed was (I understand) cut up into tiny pieces and given out to Wayfers. (I know someone who had a fragment taped inside his Bible, to remind him not to get into debt.)
However, at that particular time, "debt" and the ban on it didn't extend to home mortgages, or at least, not with the viciousness that LCM managed to attach to it. LCM managed to make the whole thing go completely mad. He might have thought a lot different if he'd had to pay a commercial rent on that Chalet.
However, at that particular time, "debt" and the ban on it didn't extend to home mortgages, or at least, not with the viciousness that LCM managed to attach to it.
Interesting. My ex-Way friend (who was in from approx. 1983-2008) to this day will not carry a mortgage or car loan. Everything has to be paid in cash. Not that she's rich or anything. I'm pretty sure she picked up that irrational belief in TWI. She also learned about wooden spoons. (That wasn't nice of me, I know.)
When I left in 2005 the no debt law was in full force.So if you want to buy a house good luck to you saving the thousands of dollars needed or as wayfers like to say "Just believe God for the money."
I believe it is good to be in control of your money but,the no debt law is just out of control,insane!I mean they honestly think it's their right to stick their nose in peoples financial business and tell them how to spend the money that they did not work for.In addition I think the whole "Just believe God for the money" comment promotes laziness,weakness and a victim mentality mindset,don't get me wrong I am thankful to God for all of His blessings but,it is my job to get off my a$$ and make things happen.
I remember when the no debt policy was in full effect in the early 90s. As a budding young zealous wayfer I had moved around the country a bit going way D, moving in with my fellowship coordinators, etc. Anywho, the thing that baffled me was the different laws regarding what was debt and what was not debt. It literally varied from branch to branch, limb to limb. I cannot imagine how much time was spent by the way of the usa and the board of directors trying to give legal advice on how to avoid this "sin."
Since then they have mandated no debt requirements on participating in anything above the intermediate class.
Advanced Class? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Advanced Class Special? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Serve on Staff? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Way Disciple? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Way Corps - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
etc.....
It's poetic justice. They have a no debt policy that is literally strangling participation (READ INCOME) from their upper echelon programs. Their real bread winners. I love it. Idiots.
It also underscores their ignorance of how debt cannot be avoided. Our money is debt. It's printed by the Federal Reserve and loaned to the US government at interest. Citizens on the hook to pay it back. I won't get into that here but if you want a good read on the subject check out the following link.
So what is the motivation? i.e. behind the no "debt" policy?
No student loans.. a less educated, and less skilled following?
no car loans.. no reliable to hq within the magic 150 miles or something?
no house loans. No "commitment" in terms of dollars and cents, to something outside of da house-hole money pit..
credit cards. I have to partially agree..
"its not a good idea" if you can't pay. There is a modern alternative, a DEBIT card. Not really any more costly than a checking account.
Credit cards can end up being extreme usuary.
for debit cards.. now you sign an agreement with the bank. "in the event I try to debit more than the account balance, I either: 1. Authorize the bank to pay, and charge me exhorbitant fees.. or 2. You will decline the transaction, on the spot..
which one do you think I chose?
the lady behind the counter explained some people like the buffer, in case they need some kind of emergency loan at the spur of the moment. I still declined. I'd rather beg..
So what was TWI's position on holding a home mortgage? Not allowed?
that is the whole "devil" of the thing.
suppose the u.s. of A enacted law stating debt to be illegal.
There is some check and balance in the Constitution.. something about post-facto law..
in other words, they don't have the power to make a whole bunch of people engaging in previously legal activities and label them felons, at the stroke of some executives pen..
apparently that does not apply to da almighty bulbous representatives of da way..
I don't know why followers put up with it.. taxation (tithery) without representation..
All this stuff blows my mind...I got out in 87 (after 13 years)...I remember when some top twi guy asked me how much money I made and I told him that it was none of his business...whether I was in debt or not, was also none of his business...
Seeing the extreme that it was carried to...I know I never would have come close to putting up with that. I left when I saw it beginning to happen. Sell my house because I have a mortgage? I would have laughed in their face...and I was corps...how did folks get sucked in that deeply? During my entire involvement with twi, which included going wow and going into the corps...I ALWAYS kept my options open...by that, I mean that twi was nothing more than a vehicle to me.
...and like a car, it eventually falls apart...I drew lines in my personal life...it was simply none of their business.
...I suppose this post sounds like I'm being critical of those who DID get sucked in that deep...and I apologize if it comes off that way...I'm only trying to understand.
I personally knew of many people who sold their homes and started renting due to this policy.
One couple owned their home free & clear (possibly inherited) but owned several rental properties from which they derived a good income...sold 'em all.
Car loans...debt...sin
Home mortgages...debt...sin
Student loans...debt...sin
Of course RENT is just debt,... money owed to someone else --- sort of like a mortgage payment, ... eh?
And if you ever (God forbid) had enough money in your pocket at one time to buy a house outright, ...would you have then been hounded to give all but what you need for necessities - to DA WAY???!!!
...I suppose this post sounds like I'm being critical of those who DID get sucked in that deep...and I apologize if it comes off that way...I'm only trying to understand.
If any of these things had sprung out of nowhere, most people would have run for the hills, but all of the crazy sh!t crept in a little at a time so you hardly noticed it was coming.
Of course RENT is just debt,... money owed to someone else --- sort of like a mortgage payment, ... eh?
And if you ever (God forbid) had enough money in your pocket at one time to buy a house outright, ...would you have then been hounded to give all but what you need for necessities - to DA WAY???!!!
Absolutely!!!
This is just one of a number of examples where the debt logic in TWI completely falls to pieces. When you rent a home, you sign a lease usually for 1 - 2 years. By TWI's strict definition, if you do not have the entire amount to pay off that rental agreement - the full amount at that moment, then signing a lease is putting yourself in debt.
Leases are an obligation for the full amount even if you move.
What's the difference between that and a mortgage? NOTHING, except the duration of the agreement.
The same BS logic applies to automobiles. Waybots happily be-bop out and lease themselves cars, under the same kind of obligation. But buy a car with a loan? OH, NO!!!! That is debt and sin. They pay more for the use of the capital involved in the depreciating value of the auto.
Where it gets even more into hypocrisy and abuse is you have people who are in leadership positions and Corps that actively browbeat others about debt, teach on it consistently - they are required to teach on debt consistently and report back on it, and these individuals THEMSELVES LIVE IN HOUSES WHERE THE MORTGAGE IS HELD BY A RELATIVE!!!! So mommy, daddy, or a brother buys a house, pays the mortgage, and little Corps mini-Napolean lives there while taking advantage of it. What vomit-inducing hypocrisy. They won't actively advertise this, or speak up about debt because if they do eventually they will get axed by Rozilla the Horrible.
The whole topic is just one more way TWI can have more control over their Waybots. Never relinquish control of your life to another person. Especially an organization that has questionable morals and has proven not to have the best interests of its own people in mind.
Prov 6:1 1 My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger , 2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. 3 Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go , humble thyself, and make sure thy friend. 4 Give not sleep to thine eyes, nor slumber to thine eyelids. 5 Deliver thyself as a roe from the hand of the hunter, and as a bird from the hand of the fowler.
Beep beep beep! Escape, avoid, get away. Warning warning warning!!!
This is what's a snare, a debt. In God's eyes, anyway. Puts someone at enormous risk - because the surety has no control over the actions of the person he is surety for - and whether the assured will fulfil his obligations.
However, to take out a like debt in one's own name - leaves one with control and the responsibility to fulfil one's obligations.
Of course, TWI could fudge this one by saying - it's not a debt for a "friend" but for a relative, and different things come into play. Ah no. No, no!! Alternatively, in TWI-think, maybe this could be extended - to cover not being surety for anyone at all. That'd be more TWI's style. Going further than the written words.
But note this:
Prov 11:15 He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it: and he that hateth suretiship is sure.
See? We're not to be guarantors, or sureties.
So all those leaders who got people (even family) to guarantee loans were inciting others to go against God's plan.
It's so shirking of personal responsibility - to shove the real burden, the risk, of a debt off onto someone else. Who would do that to someone they loved? Especially if it might put the surety's own home at risk!!
And don't think these debts aren't called in - nor that the assured always meets the payments. Too often, the beneficiary (the assured one) does default. And the guarantor faces serious problems. It happens.
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soul searcher
So what was TWI's position on holding a home mortgage? Not allowed?
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DogLover
Soul Searcher,
I left TWI in early 1996. In about 1994/95, it became, according to Craig, "debt" to have a home mortgage. Before that, it was not. The "goalposts" were indeed, always changing to fit TWI's greed for power and cash.
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Oakspear
I personally knew of many people who sold their homes and started renting due to this policy.
One couple owned their home free & clear (possibly inherited) but owned several rental properties from which they derived a good income...sold 'em all.
Car loans...debt...sin
Home mortgages...debt...sin
Student loans...debt...sin
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Twinky
"No debt" policy was in earlier than you say, Oak. I know in the mid-80s people who wouldn't use a credit card unless they could pay it off immediately (next day) - because of the "owe no man anything" teaching.
No debt came in very heavy about 1992, latest 1993. Probably fulminations before that.
As to home mortgages, VPW started it off, really. There was a mortgage over ?Emporia? and he didn't like it, said it was wasteful of ABS and it was always something that money had to be found for first and foremost because of the threat of foreclosure if the mortgage wasn't paid. When the mortgage was paid off, the mortgage deed was (I understand) cut up into tiny pieces and given out to Wayfers. (I know someone who had a fragment taped inside his Bible, to remind him not to get into debt.)
However, at that particular time, "debt" and the ban on it didn't extend to home mortgages, or at least, not with the viciousness that LCM managed to attach to it. LCM managed to make the whole thing go completely mad. He might have thought a lot different if he'd had to pay a commercial rent on that Chalet.
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soul searcher
Interesting. My ex-Way friend (who was in from approx. 1983-2008) to this day will not carry a mortgage or car loan. Everything has to be paid in cash. Not that she's rich or anything. I'm pretty sure she picked up that irrational belief in TWI. She also learned about wooden spoons. (That wasn't nice of me, I know.)
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mudflaps
When I left in 2005 the no debt law was in full force.So if you want to buy a house good luck to you saving the thousands of dollars needed or as wayfers like to say "Just believe God for the money."
I believe it is good to be in control of your money but,the no debt law is just out of control,insane!I mean they honestly think it's their right to stick their nose in peoples financial business and tell them how to spend the money that they did not work for.In addition I think the whole "Just believe God for the money" comment promotes laziness,weakness and a victim mentality mindset,don't get me wrong I am thankful to God for all of His blessings but,it is my job to get off my a$$ and make things happen.
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OldSkool
I remember when the no debt policy was in full effect in the early 90s. As a budding young zealous wayfer I had moved around the country a bit going way D, moving in with my fellowship coordinators, etc. Anywho, the thing that baffled me was the different laws regarding what was debt and what was not debt. It literally varied from branch to branch, limb to limb. I cannot imagine how much time was spent by the way of the usa and the board of directors trying to give legal advice on how to avoid this "sin."
Since then they have mandated no debt requirements on participating in anything above the intermediate class.
Advanced Class? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Advanced Class Special? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Serve on Staff? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Way Disciple? - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
Way Corps - Got debt? NO ADMITTANCE!
etc.....
It's poetic justice. They have a no debt policy that is literally strangling participation (READ INCOME) from their upper echelon programs. Their real bread winners. I love it. Idiots.
It also underscores their ignorance of how debt cannot be avoided. Our money is debt. It's printed by the Federal Reserve and loaned to the US government at interest. Citizens on the hook to pay it back. I won't get into that here but if you want a good read on the subject check out the following link.
http://www.webofdebt.com/
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Ham
So what is the motivation? i.e. behind the no "debt" policy?
No student loans.. a less educated, and less skilled following?
no car loans.. no reliable to hq within the magic 150 miles or something?
no house loans. No "commitment" in terms of dollars and cents, to something outside of da house-hole money pit..
credit cards. I have to partially agree..
"its not a good idea" if you can't pay. There is a modern alternative, a DEBIT card. Not really any more costly than a checking account.
Credit cards can end up being extreme usuary.
for debit cards.. now you sign an agreement with the bank. "in the event I try to debit more than the account balance, I either: 1. Authorize the bank to pay, and charge me exhorbitant fees.. or 2. You will decline the transaction, on the spot..
which one do you think I chose?
the lady behind the counter explained some people like the buffer, in case they need some kind of emergency loan at the spur of the moment. I still declined. I'd rather beg..
:
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Ham
yeah.. what if the transmission, or fuel pump.. or whatever it is went out on my car..
maybe I'm lucky. I keep enough cash in the account so I can ride the damned bus if I have to to fulfil my commitments..
I know a lot of people don't even have that..
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Ham
that is the whole "devil" of the thing.
suppose the u.s. of A enacted law stating debt to be illegal.
There is some check and balance in the Constitution.. something about post-facto law..
in other words, they don't have the power to make a whole bunch of people engaging in previously legal activities and label them felons, at the stroke of some executives pen..
apparently that does not apply to da almighty bulbous representatives of da way..
I don't know why followers put up with it.. taxation (tithery) without representation..
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GrouchoMarxJr
All this stuff blows my mind...I got out in 87 (after 13 years)...I remember when some top twi guy asked me how much money I made and I told him that it was none of his business...whether I was in debt or not, was also none of his business...
Seeing the extreme that it was carried to...I know I never would have come close to putting up with that. I left when I saw it beginning to happen. Sell my house because I have a mortgage? I would have laughed in their face...and I was corps...how did folks get sucked in that deeply? During my entire involvement with twi, which included going wow and going into the corps...I ALWAYS kept my options open...by that, I mean that twi was nothing more than a vehicle to me.
...and like a car, it eventually falls apart...I drew lines in my personal life...it was simply none of their business.
...I suppose this post sounds like I'm being critical of those who DID get sucked in that deep...and I apologize if it comes off that way...I'm only trying to understand.
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Ham
because.. there was not anything better AT THE MOMENT..
they ended up being a tired, well used prostitute..
I'm sure you have the same opinion, to the extent of YOUR experience..
sorry if I'm wrong here..it's just a thought..
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Ham
There was an old proverb.. any port in a storm..
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Ham
I remember the bar scene of the very late sixties..
there were some (reallY) uncomely "ladies"(?) taking their positions at the bar..
sorry if this seems... what is the word..
heartless? no, that's not it.. it's just an observation..
so in the Anchor Bar.. there were feminine what is the word..
all I can say. The young guys called them.. "ugly".. somehow the very old card holders didn't care..
rosie is no different here..
I wish.. Chip Davies would come here to contribute..
he "witnessed" to these poor souls in the bar..
I'm trying to understand as well..
Mr. Davies was my teacher in Physics..
what do you have to say now, friend..
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OldSkool
Computer programming provides an apt analogy.
If / Then statements.
If you REALLY love God, Then you will .....
If you are REALLY committed, Then you will .....
etc....
Always moving the goal posts and calling it raising the bar.
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Ham
sorry.. it is happening eveywhere..
where do we go from here..
friends, or are we not..
sorry if this is asking too much..
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waysider
If/Then
If you are a rational, logical thinking person, then you will conclude that the whole thing was a giant scam.
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Ham
Ha!
as rational as I can be.. I can't conclude that..
maybe I'm just a dreamer..
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Ham
Yeah.. if all it was was a scam.. we would have had to scammed ourselves..
heh..
well, there could be stranger things..
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waysider
Oh, I definitely think I scammed myself.
I mean, isn't that what self delusion is all about?
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Gen-2
Of course RENT is just debt,... money owed to someone else --- sort of like a mortgage payment, ... eh?
And if you ever (God forbid) had enough money in your pocket at one time to buy a house outright, ...would you have then been hounded to give all but what you need for necessities - to DA WAY???!!!
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Oakspear
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chockfull
Absolutely!!!
This is just one of a number of examples where the debt logic in TWI completely falls to pieces. When you rent a home, you sign a lease usually for 1 - 2 years. By TWI's strict definition, if you do not have the entire amount to pay off that rental agreement - the full amount at that moment, then signing a lease is putting yourself in debt.
Leases are an obligation for the full amount even if you move.
What's the difference between that and a mortgage? NOTHING, except the duration of the agreement.
The same BS logic applies to automobiles. Waybots happily be-bop out and lease themselves cars, under the same kind of obligation. But buy a car with a loan? OH, NO!!!! That is debt and sin. They pay more for the use of the capital involved in the depreciating value of the auto.
Where it gets even more into hypocrisy and abuse is you have people who are in leadership positions and Corps that actively browbeat others about debt, teach on it consistently - they are required to teach on debt consistently and report back on it, and these individuals THEMSELVES LIVE IN HOUSES WHERE THE MORTGAGE IS HELD BY A RELATIVE!!!! So mommy, daddy, or a brother buys a house, pays the mortgage, and little Corps mini-Napolean lives there while taking advantage of it. What vomit-inducing hypocrisy. They won't actively advertise this, or speak up about debt because if they do eventually they will get axed by Rozilla the Horrible.
The whole topic is just one more way TWI can have more control over their Waybots. Never relinquish control of your life to another person. Especially an organization that has questionable morals and has proven not to have the best interests of its own people in mind.
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Twinky
Beep beep beep! Escape, avoid, get away. Warning warning warning!!!
This is what's a snare, a debt. In God's eyes, anyway. Puts someone at enormous risk - because the surety has no control over the actions of the person he is surety for - and whether the assured will fulfil his obligations.
However, to take out a like debt in one's own name - leaves one with control and the responsibility to fulfil one's obligations.
Of course, TWI could fudge this one by saying - it's not a debt for a "friend" but for a relative, and different things come into play. Ah no. No, no!! Alternatively, in TWI-think, maybe this could be extended - to cover not being surety for anyone at all. That'd be more TWI's style. Going further than the written words.
But note this:
See? We're not to be guarantors, or sureties.
So all those leaders who got people (even family) to guarantee loans were inciting others to go against God's plan.
It's so shirking of personal responsibility - to shove the real burden, the risk, of a debt off onto someone else. Who would do that to someone they loved? Especially if it might put the surety's own home at risk!!
And don't think these debts aren't called in - nor that the assured always meets the payments. Too often, the beneficiary (the assured one) does default. And the guarantor faces serious problems. It happens.
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