One day it's fire coming down from heaven, the next - people are just getting away with murder.
Dfficult to rationalize - Even for the brightest Bible student.
May I suggest you give my approach a shot? Don't worry about God and what He does. He does "GOD" things and no one's built the proper box to contain Him yet.
Until we do >snicker< ........... He's just gonna do whatever in the hell He feels like doing. One day we'll even understand it.
Well, there are multiple viewpoints out there. I suggest you get a few of them, and make up your own mind (what a concept, eh? )
One viewpoint is that God is in control, BUT He allows things to happen as a result of our own free will. He could have stopped Eve from eating that fruit, whatever it may have been, but even though He knew in advance (because He is God, after all), He gives us freedom of will to choose to love and obey Him, reaping untold benefits, or go our own way, which ends in disaster. This viewpoint is called arminianism.
Another point of view is Calvinism. Calvinism is best know for the TULIP acronym:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
Total depravity simply means that man is in a state of sin and is unable to save himself through good works or anything else.
Unconditional election means that God has "elected" or picked out a very few individuals throughout time to become saved and to spend all eternity with Him. These chosen few are called "the elect." Most of us are going to hell, because even if we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, we're not on the short list.
Limited atonement means that Jesus died for the salvation of the elect, not for the world.
Irresistible grace means that if you are one of the elect, you will respond to God's call. You will have a salvation experience, and you will be able thereafter to pinpoint the exact day, time, hour, setting when you repented of your sin and asked God to save you. If you cannot remember that exact moment, you just think you are saved and are not one of the elect.
Perseverance of the Saints means you can't lose your salvation.
I suspect these people you have been talking to are Calvinists of one sort or another. The pastor of the Calvinist church we used to attend does not believe in any of the manifestations of the spirit or especially that God heals you. He does not believe prayer does any good and we only pray for the sick because God commands it. We only witness because God commands it; witnessing does no good because God has already selected the chosen few and if you don't run across one of them you are just wasting oxygen when you witness.
I have tried to be somewhat objective in my description. I don't consider myself to be any one theology or another. I am a Christian and a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is divinely inspired.
Speaking of the Bible, I have a suggestion: get another version other than King James, if you haven't already. I like the New International Version and I like the Amplified Bible. The Message is written in plain English. There is a website called Biblegateway.com that you can look up a verse in many different versions and see which one suits you. Get one you find interesting, read it for yourself, and don't worry about making notes. It took me a while before I could see the page without Way-colored glasses, but when I did I found I still love God and guess what ? He still loves me, too!
Anyway, there will probably be a few zillion opinions weighing in and you can take this for what I hope it is: an attempt to answer your question a little bit, but going around the world to do so. Is God in control? Well, yes, but like a loving Father, I believe He lets us trip over our own feet sometimes. We're studying Elijah at church this next few weeks. It's easy to see how Israel screwed up until there were very few people left who worshipped God. Isaiah is a great book to read, too. Read it for enjoyment; nobody's looking over your shoulder to make sure you "rightly divide it according to usage and in the glorious light of the present truth, etc etc etc."
All the best and feel free to PM me if you like.
WG
PS: I have found there is a huge difference between obeying God and obeying the leadership of TWI. Huge.
I agree with the previous posters who have attempted to answer this question. I don't have any cut and dried answers, but I've seen something in the Word that has disturbed my complacaisance and roiled up my thinking.
Ephesians 1:9&10 say,
"9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
"10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and on earth; even in him;"
First, "the mystery of his will" does NOT mean a secret "Age of Grace." God kept a secret until after Jesus Christ was crucified. That secret was that He was going to promote Jesus to the position of "Lord" as indicated in Philippians 2:11. That secret was revealed on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:36).
The phrase "gather together in one" is translated from a single word in the Greek, anakephalaioomai, which literally means "to head up for one's self."
The preposition "in" in the phrase "in the dispensation of the fulness of times" Doesn't mean "inside of" It's the preposition eis which means "toward." The word "dispensation" in the Greek means "management." The phrase starts out, "toward management..." Management of what?
The word "fulness" means "that with which a thing is full." The fulness of a Twinkie is its creamy filling.
The word translated "times" is kairos, which Bullinger partially defines as "the opportune point of time." In military writings, the kairos was the point in a fight when the general made a decision that turned the outcome of the battle. "Times" could be viewed as "decisive moments."
So, these verses from Ephesians show us that God kept it secret that He was going to head-up all things in Christ, toward management of that which fills the decisive moments, until after Jesus had been crucified. This is part of God's job that He delegated to Jesus Christ. What is "that which fills the desicive moments?" I can't say that I know.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 assures us, despite Einstein's famous dictum, that God does indeed play dice with the universe. Objective reality is probabilistic rather than deterministic. This probabilistic nature is what allows for human beings to have free will, and for God to intervene in history. But how?
Could it be through synchronicity?.. seemingly meaningful coincidences?.. the apparently significant connection between things that have no cause-and-effect relationship?
"What is God's job, exactly?" I have more questions now than I ever had before.
Newlife, ya know I gotta chirp in on this one, huh?
I love the question since it's one I've kicked around alot, especially in the last really difficult and exciting year. I hope I've finally come up with something that works for me; I sure do hope so!
I know there is scripture and teaching and conferances and many many conversations to answer this question, as well; none of which seemed to fit, which was even a bigger problem for this woman. This is what I've decided, for me.
God is who/what I need him to be, as He decides for me. When I need some lesson, God seems to put me where that is and then it's up to me to learn it. Never punishment unless I beat the freak outa myself when I get frustrated or impatient or or or or.....
When I need answers I have to remember to ask God then dig deep for the patience and open heart to get the answer; it's always there when I do. Not always the answer I want, mind you, but I do get answers.
When I'm hurting, angry, lonely, sad or or or....God will give me peace, rest, comfort or provide some way for me to vent and hollar and cry if that's what I need.
I'm also aware, lately, that the way God works for me isn't the same as the way He might for another; it's unique and very special to my needs. Kinda like a parent, which I can relate to. My job is to be the student, God's job is to be the teacher.
Once the student was ready, the teacher could do His thing.
Makes me remember what my job is too, which to me is the more important part.
I think of Forest Gump when he said "Whatever you tell me to, Drill Sargeant"
Less the drill sargeant part.
I keep it simple, though. In the morning it's simply "Thanks for telling me what I need to do today and how to do it. I'll try not to purposefully harm or hurt another and I will protect my own heart too"
At the end of the day it's as simple "how'd we do today?"
And then better tomorrow if needed.
God's job is to make sure I keep breathing. My job is to breath.
What the bibllical records reports could be restated using a comparison - like a parent who raises a child.
Parent is the source of the child's life and creates the environment for the child to grow and thrive. The child lives their own life though, and while the parent influences and guides, the child decides. Chooses.
The comparison isn't exact and won't hold up for every detail. However, God is described in the New Testament as "Father".
God isn't "only" a Father but if I fleshed out that relationship a little I wouldn't go the route that much Christian theology has gone - that He controls and in essence manipulates our lives in detail to go a certain way. An iron willed and hard fisted father might, but ultimately - don't all, aren't all children expected to make their own and hoperfully succeed, to their parents great pride?
The relationship normally gets sketched as Father gimme, Father punish me, etc. Just think about the relationship tho and what it would be, really is.
Contrast that for a moment to the TWI teaching that God WON'T move, do, act, guide, UNTIL or unless YOU BELIEVE
and that any exceptions to that are "grace". (and doing some work on that term not limiting it to the "getting what you don't deserve" definition will be enlightening, I promise you)
Start to move away from thinking that God WON'T and more what God WILL....do.
LIkewise yourself - what you WILL and CAN, not what you WON'T or DON'T do.
Basically I see from the Bible that this world and it's contents are within our purvue, much in the bounds of the original Genesis setting with Adam And Eve. That scenario has changed somewhat over time but the basic ingredients are still the same, for Christian, non-Christian, etc.
Great question! Oh yes! I've definitely struggled with this as have many Christians throughout the years. My resolution is that I've decided not to try to resolve it any more. Everytime I think I've come up with "the answer", I soon realize I've put God in a box...again.
I don't know where the sovereignty of God ends and the free will of man picks up. I don't understand everything there is to understand about spiritual warfare. I don't know why at certain times I've prayed for people and things some might consider miraculous happened..sometimes even when I had a bad attitude. Other times I pray and pray and I feel like I'm talking to the ceiling and either nothing happens, or things get worse...like when you pray for people and they die anyway.
I've resolved, in my saner moments, to just keep doing what I know to do. I pray for stuff, people, and situations. I don't play the little mind games TWI taught us. TWI's approach negates the sovereignty of God. When someone is hurting be it one person or a nation, the Bible teaches us to pray...so I pray. The Bible says to pray for the sick, so I do so. When I'm in need, I bring it to God. I live in the tension between two extremes. One, the Calvinists say everything is predestined and predetermined and nothing you do is going to change that. Then I ask, why bother? Why even pray at all? In fact, why even be a Christian? You're only a Christian because decided you should be one if the Calvinists are correct. The other extreme are the other guys whose name I can't remember. With them, it's all free will. There is no plan, God has no vision, everything just is what it is. Once again, why bother? I'm not wise enough to run my own life, much less the world. If God does not intervene in the affairs of man, then, in effect, God does not exist as far as man is concerned, and Christianity is just another philosophy.
So, I pray and ask for God's intervention. I don't seem to get it in every situation, but sometimes I seem to. God isn't obligated to answer my requests just because I asked.
A line from a song by Blood, Sweat, and Tears comes to mind. It doesn't completely relate to the subject matter, but it's an example of someone liveing in the tension. "I swear there ain't no Heaven and I pray there ain't no Hell."
I'm not even sure if I care any more about "God's job"...
When I live my life according (as best I can manage) to Biblical principles, things work out better than if I "lean to my own understanding."
> I didn't want to forgive those who hurt me..but I did...and hey presto, things became soooo much better. I was freer in my head and heart.
> I might not like someone...but I treat them nicely according to Biblical principle, and hey presto, I learn great things about that person, why they were difficult to relate to initially, and find we've become friends.
> I might not feel like doing something that I've signed up to do...but when I see how much it helps others and the great benefits to them...I can't wait till next time comes around.
> When I've shown someone else what the Bible says about "living life" and see that person trying to live life that way - I see changes for the good - for that person and for those around him/her.
And so on...
Not just once or twice, but frequently.
Part of "He can work when we work" is me getting involved. That helps him "do his job." How He gets on with his bit - is his business. We don't always know what the boss (at work) (the CEO in a multi-national company, say) (or even just our immediate boss!) is doing, but if we get on with our bit, the bigger picture comes together eventually.
My daily e-scripture reaing today was Daniel 2:24-49 - the bit about the statue made of many metals but shattered by a rock...earthly kingdoms shattered by the kingdom of God.
Not much of an answer, but I think i'll stick to doing my job as best I can. God can get on with his...whatever He needs to do....directing angels in the spiritual warfare against the devil or what-have-you.
I think also we need to see God bigger...not just overseeing what goes on on this planet, but what might be going on on the other side of our solar system, on solar systems light-years away, on the other side of the universe.
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
NASB
13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
14For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
God's got a lot to cover. All we can understand are a few vague generalities.
We know that He's got the end covered completely.
Respect God and do what He says.
Before the end, God will judge EVERY act, no matter how carefully hidden.
Revelation 21:1-4
NASB
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Revelation 21:10-27
10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
11having the glory of God Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
13There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
16The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
17And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
18The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
20the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:1-5
NASB
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
=================================
Before we get to that point, there's a lot to be attended to-
especially considering that God has to get the details covered while still allowing people
their free will and the freedom to do horrible things and mess up their lives-
while not messing up salvation and God's plan as a whole.
Does God have a job? Good question. I don't honestly know. I do know he is order, just to name one thing. I've had trouble with the problem of the existence negative things in general, though, not just the "daay-vill".
I have often thought of the whole good-bad thing, and how it permeates all of creation, apparently. God, in my estimation is in charge, but He himself constrains himself to act within the bounds of freewill choice. I don't really know that he is incapable of going outside "the rules", but more that he chooses to stay in-bounds, if you will.
In quantum theory, the one thing that always intrigued me is the concept of duality or complementarity. Now, if you invoke a concept, such a "large", you automatically invoke its opposite, "small". So, in the same sense, if you invoke the concept of "good", you are also simultaneously defining "bad", as its opposite. Very similar to the wave-particle duality thing. Does this have anything to do with the devil? Did he contaminate all of reality, or just the terrestrial earth? If I was on a planet in Apha Centauri, could the devil get to me there?
Another thing that I turned around in my brain many times is, does this apply to all time, or just to the period after the fall and before the 3rd heaven/earth? Will duality be "deleted" from the final paradise? Will roses no longer bear thorns? Perhaps not. It could be a sort of universal change that affects everything down to the atomic level. That's just my guess, here.
So I don't know that God has a "job" in the human sense of the word. Aside from seeing that God ordered the universe and arranged the physics that humans attempt to describe, and what we can glean from the bible, the rest is just beyond me for now. I trust that at some point in the future, it will become clear to us.
Daily I am challenged trying to figure out my own job here--honestly that is plenty difficult enough and a lot of the time I cant even get that right---
Im not going to presume to know the Almighty's except that it is way way bigger than I will ever be able to comprehend...
It doesn't really sit right with me when someone says "God is in control" "God has a plan for your life" "Things happen for a reason". Usually because the people saying it to me don't seem to be trying very hard.
Like this one woman I know-the first thing she says when people want to pray about something or someone is: "Now remember, God has a plan. His plan may be for this person not to live."
I'm of the opinion that it aint over til it's over. I'll keep praying, asking and looking for things that will help. I believe what III John 2 says. God wants us to prosper and be in health above all things.
Sometimes people won't get healed and they will die. But I don't believe it's God's plan for them. I think it's because people are human and there are a lot of variables that cause bad things to happen. I don't blame God when they do, and I don't blame people for weakness etc...
I think we are just supposed to love God and love each other. We should do whatever we can to help each other and keep praying to God to help us. Then if the bad things happen anyway, we support each other, keep loving and don't blame God.
It doesn't really sit right with me when someone says "God is in control" "God has a plan for your life" "Things happen for a reason". Usually because the people saying it to me don't seem to be trying very hard.
Like this one woman I know-the first thing she says when people want to pray about something or someone is: "Now remember, God has a plan. His plan may be for this person not to live."
I'm of the opinion that it aint over til it's over. I'll keep praying, asking and looking for things that will help. I believe what III John 2 says. God wants us to prosper and be in health above all things.
Sometimes people won't get healed and they will die. But I don't believe it's God's plan for them. I think it's because people are human and there are a lot of variables that cause bad things to happen. I don't blame God when they do, and I don't blame people for weakness etc...
I think we are just supposed to love God and love each other. We should do whatever we can to help each other and keep praying to God to help us. Then if the bad things happen anyway, we support each other, keep loving and don't blame God.
Well said Free. That lady you know sounds like she throws a wet blanket on things. In her mind she's probably trying to protect people from possible disappointment. I agree with what you say about the variables. I don't understand them, but I understand God says to pray, love, support one another as well as others who we may not even know.
Well said Free. That lady you know sounds like she throws a wet blanket on things. In her mind she's probably trying to protect people from possible disappointment. I agree with what you say about the variables. I don't understand them, but I understand God says to pray, love, support one another as well as others who we may not even know.
I like that Roy, that was cool :) other replies pretty good too. I'm a bit like Roy on this one... At times God works behind the scenes to help us be the best we can be,( a bit like Dad or Mom helping us to learn to ride a bike first time round ) at other times he's a bit more 'in your face' ( but in a nicer way than twi jerks ) :) God is all powerful, but doesn't hold all the power.
I really, really appreciate all of your insights and your experiences on this topic. I am sad that we grapple with things like this...But I had begun to think I was the only one that wasn't "getting this"....and now I know I have friends who need answers too. Your posts are really helping me a lot...if you think of anything additional you can add, please post it!
When someone tells me "everything happens for a reason" my response is frequently that sometimes the "reason" is that "dang happens."
When I was diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes I was still "in." This wonderful woman called me up from Kentucky and said, "God told me to call you and tell you it's not your fault. You didn't do anything. We live in corruptible flesh while we are on this earth."
Sometimes people die when we pray for them to live; we don't know why. I worked in a cancer hospital and the doctor I worked for treated children with radiation therapy. These kids were beautiful, bright, loving, and sometimes in spite of all the doctor's best efforts, they just didn't survive. I was really, really pi$$ed at God over that for a while. I was even more upset with the people who would say stuff like that rose petal in heaven crap. But I believe that when mankind fell, over time sin has permeated not only the earth, but also our very genetics.
I do know one thing; God doesn't steal, kill, or destroy. That's Satan's gig.
Does God micromanage every one of us with a "plan" for our lives? Nah, I don't think so in the sense your acquaintance is suggesting. III John 2 is part of His ideal for us, though. I'm sure of that.
i like this question a lot because it was the very question that kept me from really being able to look behind the curtain of the way international and seeing the little man playing a big god like creature, and it took a whole lot of therapy to unravel the tightly wound dogma thinking in my brain, and it was very hard work and very scary work and it didn't feel good at all and lots of times i threw up and cried and screamed all night long because it seemed like i was ripping away any shred of possiblity that there is a god at all, but in the end what happened for me was that i came to a quiet understanding of things that brought me lots of peace.
the first place my therapist started with me was to start thinking as if there was no god at all because i was so tightly wound up in my brain that everything was god this and god that and the adversary this and the adversary that, even to the point that i have read here many others were at that i believed it was god's favor on me for my great believing that i got all green lights on my way to work, or the best parking spot in the shopping center and really crazy thinking stuff like that. oh, and the really really crazy thinking about when the unbelievers won out over the believers and i tried to explain that it wasn't their god winning over my god, but their believing was bigger than my believing and how my god honored their believing because he was a just god and couldn't go against his own word and all that way international nonsense that was squeezing my brain almost until it popped! so my therapist worked with me a long long time to get me to the point where i looked at things without there having to be any spiritual beings involved at all but just that things happen by chance or by hit and miss. once i got to that point she asked me if i could then find places where there might me actual divine intervention.
and that's when i began to understand that looking for the signs of god at work was the opposite of faith, and that it was really a need for proof that god was working before i would believe for another work in my life. once i came to this understanding, i also came to the understanding of what people were trying to say to me when they were saying that god had a plan for my life or that god was in control, or at least my perception of what they were trying to say. but what i think those things mean is like what it says in the bible about god could have raised up children from the rocks. see, if it takes us to do something to get god's work done, then is he really god? like in a human family, the children don't go around worrying about how the bills get paid or how the food gets bought or how the laundry gets done. for the children, it just all happens without them thinking about it all. as the children grow and learn, then they might participate, but they don't get a full understanding until they are out on their own and make their own mistakes. no matter how well parents prepare children for being adults, until a child has bounced a few checks they don't really get what it means to keep a balanced check book.
so what i get from all of this is that according to the bible and many other holy books, as long as we are here, then we are still children, so we won't have an understanding of many things and we really don't need to worry about so many things because there's just not much we can do about them, anyway. what is that saying "the best laid plans of mice and men"? i'm going to look it up. here it is
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Gen-2
Well, God has His moments - Biblically.
One day it's fire coming down from heaven, the next - people are just getting away with murder.
Dfficult to rationalize - Even for the brightest Bible student.
May I suggest you give my approach a shot? Don't worry about God and what He does. He does "GOD" things and no one's built the proper box to contain Him yet.
Until we do >snicker< ........... He's just gonna do whatever in the hell He feels like doing. One day we'll even understand it.
that's my two cents.
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Watered Garden
Well, there are multiple viewpoints out there. I suggest you get a few of them, and make up your own mind (what a concept, eh?
)
One viewpoint is that God is in control, BUT He allows things to happen as a result of our own free will. He could have stopped Eve from eating that fruit, whatever it may have been, but even though He knew in advance (because He is God, after all), He gives us freedom of will to choose to love and obey Him, reaping untold benefits, or go our own way, which ends in disaster. This viewpoint is called arminianism.
Another point of view is Calvinism. Calvinism is best know for the TULIP acronym:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
Total depravity simply means that man is in a state of sin and is unable to save himself through good works or anything else.
Unconditional election means that God has "elected" or picked out a very few individuals throughout time to become saved and to spend all eternity with Him. These chosen few are called "the elect." Most of us are going to hell, because even if we believe Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, we're not on the short list.
Limited atonement means that Jesus died for the salvation of the elect, not for the world.
Irresistible grace means that if you are one of the elect, you will respond to God's call. You will have a salvation experience, and you will be able thereafter to pinpoint the exact day, time, hour, setting when you repented of your sin and asked God to save you. If you cannot remember that exact moment, you just think you are saved and are not one of the elect.
Perseverance of the Saints means you can't lose your salvation.
I suspect these people you have been talking to are Calvinists of one sort or another. The pastor of the Calvinist church we used to attend does not believe in any of the manifestations of the spirit or especially that God heals you. He does not believe prayer does any good and we only pray for the sick because God commands it. We only witness because God commands it; witnessing does no good because God has already selected the chosen few and if you don't run across one of them you are just wasting oxygen when you witness.
I have tried to be somewhat objective in my description. I don't consider myself to be any one theology or another. I am a Christian and a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is divinely inspired.
Speaking of the Bible, I have a suggestion: get another version other than King James, if you haven't already. I like the New International Version and I like the Amplified Bible. The Message is written in plain English. There is a website called Biblegateway.com that you can look up a verse in many different versions and see which one suits you. Get one you find interesting, read it for yourself, and don't worry about making notes. It took me a while before I could see the page without Way-colored glasses, but when I did I found I still love God and guess what ? He still loves me, too!
Anyway, there will probably be a few zillion opinions weighing in and you can take this for what I hope it is: an attempt to answer your question a little bit, but going around the world to do so. Is God in control? Well, yes, but like a loving Father, I believe He lets us trip over our own feet sometimes. We're studying Elijah at church this next few weeks. It's easy to see how Israel screwed up until there were very few people left who worshipped God. Isaiah is a great book to read, too. Read it for enjoyment; nobody's looking over your shoulder to make sure you "rightly divide it according to usage and in the glorious light of the present truth, etc etc etc."
All the best and feel free to PM me if you like.
WG
PS: I have found there is a huge difference between obeying God and obeying the leadership of TWI. Huge.
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Steve Lortz
"What is God's job, exactly?"
I agree with the previous posters who have attempted to answer this question. I don't have any cut and dried answers, but I've seen something in the Word that has disturbed my complacaisance and roiled up my thinking.
Ephesians 1:9&10 say,
"9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
"10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and on earth; even in him;"
First, "the mystery of his will" does NOT mean a secret "Age of Grace." God kept a secret until after Jesus Christ was crucified. That secret was that He was going to promote Jesus to the position of "Lord" as indicated in Philippians 2:11. That secret was revealed on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:36).
The phrase "gather together in one" is translated from a single word in the Greek, anakephalaioomai, which literally means "to head up for one's self."
The preposition "in" in the phrase "in the dispensation of the fulness of times" Doesn't mean "inside of" It's the preposition eis which means "toward." The word "dispensation" in the Greek means "management." The phrase starts out, "toward management..." Management of what?
The word "fulness" means "that with which a thing is full." The fulness of a Twinkie is its creamy filling.
The word translated "times" is kairos, which Bullinger partially defines as "the opportune point of time." In military writings, the kairos was the point in a fight when the general made a decision that turned the outcome of the battle. "Times" could be viewed as "decisive moments."
So, these verses from Ephesians show us that God kept it secret that He was going to head-up all things in Christ, toward management of that which fills the decisive moments, until after Jesus had been crucified. This is part of God's job that He delegated to Jesus Christ. What is "that which fills the desicive moments?" I can't say that I know.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 assures us, despite Einstein's famous dictum, that God does indeed play dice with the universe. Objective reality is probabilistic rather than deterministic. This probabilistic nature is what allows for human beings to have free will, and for God to intervene in history. But how?
Could it be through synchronicity?.. seemingly meaningful coincidences?.. the apparently significant connection between things that have no cause-and-effect relationship?
"What is God's job, exactly?" I have more questions now than I ever had before.
Love,
Steve
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Shellon
Newlife, ya know I gotta chirp in on this one, huh?
I love the question since it's one I've kicked around alot, especially in the last really difficult and exciting year. I hope I've finally come up with something that works for me; I sure do hope so!
I know there is scripture and teaching and conferances and many many conversations to answer this question, as well; none of which seemed to fit, which was even a bigger problem for this woman. This is what I've decided, for me.
God is who/what I need him to be, as He decides for me. When I need some lesson, God seems to put me where that is and then it's up to me to learn it. Never punishment unless I beat the freak outa myself when I get frustrated or impatient or or or or.....
When I need answers I have to remember to ask God then dig deep for the patience and open heart to get the answer; it's always there when I do. Not always the answer I want, mind you, but I do get answers.
When I'm hurting, angry, lonely, sad or or or....God will give me peace, rest, comfort or provide some way for me to vent and hollar and cry if that's what I need.
I'm also aware, lately, that the way God works for me isn't the same as the way He might for another; it's unique and very special to my needs. Kinda like a parent, which I can relate to. My job is to be the student, God's job is to be the teacher.
Once the student was ready, the teacher could do His thing.
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Shellon
Makes me remember what my job is too, which to me is the more important part.
I think of Forest Gump when he said "Whatever you tell me to, Drill Sargeant"
Less the drill sargeant part.
I keep it simple, though. In the morning it's simply "Thanks for telling me what I need to do today and how to do it. I'll try not to purposefully harm or hurt another and I will protect my own heart too"
At the end of the day it's as simple "how'd we do today?"
And then better tomorrow if needed.
God's job is to make sure I keep breathing. My job is to breath.
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socks
What the bibllical records reports could be restated using a comparison - like a parent who raises a child.
Parent is the source of the child's life and creates the environment for the child to grow and thrive. The child lives their own life though, and while the parent influences and guides, the child decides. Chooses.
The comparison isn't exact and won't hold up for every detail. However, God is described in the New Testament as "Father".
God isn't "only" a Father but if I fleshed out that relationship a little I wouldn't go the route that much Christian theology has gone - that He controls and in essence manipulates our lives in detail to go a certain way. An iron willed and hard fisted father might, but ultimately - don't all, aren't all children expected to make their own and hoperfully succeed, to their parents great pride?
The relationship normally gets sketched as Father gimme, Father punish me, etc. Just think about the relationship tho and what it would be, really is.
Contrast that for a moment to the TWI teaching that God WON'T move, do, act, guide, UNTIL or unless YOU BELIEVE
and that any exceptions to that are "grace". (and doing some work on that term not limiting it to the "getting what you don't deserve" definition will be enlightening, I promise you)
Start to move away from thinking that God WON'T and more what God WILL....do.
LIkewise yourself - what you WILL and CAN, not what you WON'T or DON'T do.
Basically I see from the Bible that this world and it's contents are within our purvue, much in the bounds of the original Genesis setting with Adam And Eve. That scenario has changed somewhat over time but the basic ingredients are still the same, for Christian, non-Christian, etc.
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Broken Arrow
Great question! Oh yes! I've definitely struggled with this as have many Christians throughout the years. My resolution is that I've decided not to try to resolve it any more. Everytime I think I've come up with "the answer", I soon realize I've put God in a box...again.
I don't know where the sovereignty of God ends and the free will of man picks up. I don't understand everything there is to understand about spiritual warfare. I don't know why at certain times I've prayed for people and things some might consider miraculous happened..sometimes even when I had a bad attitude. Other times I pray and pray and I feel like I'm talking to the ceiling and either nothing happens, or things get worse...like when you pray for people and they die anyway.
I've resolved, in my saner moments, to just keep doing what I know to do. I pray for stuff, people, and situations. I don't play the little mind games TWI taught us. TWI's approach negates the sovereignty of God. When someone is hurting be it one person or a nation, the Bible teaches us to pray...so I pray. The Bible says to pray for the sick, so I do so. When I'm in need, I bring it to God. I live in the tension between two extremes. One, the Calvinists say everything is predestined and predetermined and nothing you do is going to change that. Then I ask, why bother? Why even pray at all? In fact, why even be a Christian? You're only a Christian because decided you should be one if the Calvinists are correct. The other extreme are the other guys whose name I can't remember. With them, it's all free will. There is no plan, God has no vision, everything just is what it is. Once again, why bother? I'm not wise enough to run my own life, much less the world. If God does not intervene in the affairs of man, then, in effect, God does not exist as far as man is concerned, and Christianity is just another philosophy.
So, I pray and ask for God's intervention. I don't seem to get it in every situation, but sometimes I seem to. God isn't obligated to answer my requests just because I asked.
A line from a song by Blood, Sweat, and Tears comes to mind. It doesn't completely relate to the subject matter, but it's an example of someone liveing in the tension. "I swear there ain't no Heaven and I pray there ain't no Hell."
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Watered Garden
Works for me, too, BA.
And what a relief to be able to admit that I DON'T know that I know that I know that I know!
I'm not a Calvinist, not at all. I just happened to have that one viewpoint saved from some research I did a while back.
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Twinky
I'm not even sure if I care any more about "God's job"...
When I live my life according (as best I can manage) to Biblical principles, things work out better than if I "lean to my own understanding."
> I didn't want to forgive those who hurt me..but I did...and hey presto, things became soooo much better. I was freer in my head and heart.
> I might not like someone...but I treat them nicely according to Biblical principle, and hey presto, I learn great things about that person, why they were difficult to relate to initially, and find we've become friends.
> I might not feel like doing something that I've signed up to do...but when I see how much it helps others and the great benefits to them...I can't wait till next time comes around.
> When I've shown someone else what the Bible says about "living life" and see that person trying to live life that way - I see changes for the good - for that person and for those around him/her.
And so on...
Not just once or twice, but frequently.
Part of "He can work when we work" is me getting involved. That helps him "do his job." How He gets on with his bit - is his business. We don't always know what the boss (at work) (the CEO in a multi-national company, say) (or even just our immediate boss!) is doing, but if we get on with our bit, the bigger picture comes together eventually.
My daily e-scripture reaing today was Daniel 2:24-49 - the bit about the statue made of many metals but shattered by a rock...earthly kingdoms shattered by the kingdom of God.
Not much of an answer, but I think i'll stick to doing my job as best I can. God can get on with his...whatever He needs to do....directing angels in the spiritual warfare against the devil or what-have-you.
I think also we need to see God bigger...not just overseeing what goes on on this planet, but what might be going on on the other side of our solar system, on solar systems light-years away, on the other side of the universe.
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WordWolf
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
KJV
13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
NASB
13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
14For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.
God's got a lot to cover. All we can understand are a few vague generalities.
We know that He's got the end covered completely.
Respect God and do what He says.
Before the end, God will judge EVERY act, no matter how carefully hidden.
Revelation 21:1-4
NASB
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Revelation 21:10-27
10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
11having the glory of God Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper.
12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.
13There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west.
14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, and its gates and its wall.
16The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
17And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
18The material of the wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
19The foundation stones of the city wall were adorned with every kind of precious stone The first foundation stone was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald;
20the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprase; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; each one of the gates was a single pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb.
24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:1-5
NASB
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.
5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
=================================
Before we get to that point, there's a lot to be attended to-
especially considering that God has to get the details covered while still allowing people
their free will and the freedom to do horrible things and mess up their lives-
while not messing up salvation and God's plan as a whole.
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year2027
God first
thanks newlife
what is God's job?
God job is simple God's is to teach his children
like a mother takes her children
like a Father makes his children are safe
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Calavicci
Does God have a job? Good question. I don't honestly know. I do know he is order, just to name one thing. I've had trouble with the problem of the existence negative things in general, though, not just the "daay-vill".
I have often thought of the whole good-bad thing, and how it permeates all of creation, apparently. God, in my estimation is in charge, but He himself constrains himself to act within the bounds of freewill choice. I don't really know that he is incapable of going outside "the rules", but more that he chooses to stay in-bounds, if you will.
In quantum theory, the one thing that always intrigued me is the concept of duality or complementarity. Now, if you invoke a concept, such a "large", you automatically invoke its opposite, "small". So, in the same sense, if you invoke the concept of "good", you are also simultaneously defining "bad", as its opposite. Very similar to the wave-particle duality thing. Does this have anything to do with the devil? Did he contaminate all of reality, or just the terrestrial earth? If I was on a planet in Apha Centauri, could the devil get to me there?
Another thing that I turned around in my brain many times is, does this apply to all time, or just to the period after the fall and before the 3rd heaven/earth? Will duality be "deleted" from the final paradise? Will roses no longer bear thorns? Perhaps not. It could be a sort of universal change that affects everything down to the atomic level. That's just my guess, here.
So I don't know that God has a "job" in the human sense of the word. Aside from seeing that God ordered the universe and arranged the physics that humans attempt to describe, and what we can glean from the bible, the rest is just beyond me for now. I trust that at some point in the future, it will become clear to us.
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mstar1
Daily I am challenged trying to figure out my own job here--honestly that is plenty difficult enough and a lot of the time I cant even get that right---
Im not going to presume to know the Almighty's except that it is way way bigger than I will ever be able to comprehend...
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100% Free
It doesn't really sit right with me when someone says "God is in control" "God has a plan for your life" "Things happen for a reason". Usually because the people saying it to me don't seem to be trying very hard.
Like this one woman I know-the first thing she says when people want to pray about something or someone is: "Now remember, God has a plan. His plan may be for this person not to live."
I'm of the opinion that it aint over til it's over. I'll keep praying, asking and looking for things that will help. I believe what III John 2 says. God wants us to prosper and be in health above all things.
Sometimes people won't get healed and they will die. But I don't believe it's God's plan for them. I think it's because people are human and there are a lot of variables that cause bad things to happen. I don't blame God when they do, and I don't blame people for weakness etc...
I think we are just supposed to love God and love each other. We should do whatever we can to help each other and keep praying to God to help us. Then if the bad things happen anyway, we support each other, keep loving and don't blame God.
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Broken Arrow
Well said Free. That lady you know sounds like she throws a wet blanket on things. In her mind she's probably trying to protect people from possible disappointment. I agree with what you say about the variables. I don't understand them, but I understand God says to pray, love, support one another as well as others who we may not even know.
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100% Free
Thanks.
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polynesian
I like that Roy, that was cool :) other replies pretty good too. I'm a bit like Roy on this one... At times God works behind the scenes to help us be the best we can be,( a bit like Dad or Mom helping us to learn to ride a bike first time round ) at other times he's a bit more 'in your face' ( but in a nicer way than twi jerks ) :) God is all powerful, but doesn't hold all the power.
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newlife
I really, really appreciate all of your insights and your experiences on this topic. I am sad that we grapple with things like this...But I had begun to think I was the only one that wasn't "getting this"....and now I know I have friends who need answers too. Your posts are really helping me a lot...if you think of anything additional you can add, please post it!
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Watered Garden
When someone tells me "everything happens for a reason" my response is frequently that sometimes the "reason" is that "dang happens."
When I was diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes I was still "in." This wonderful woman called me up from Kentucky and said, "God told me to call you and tell you it's not your fault. You didn't do anything. We live in corruptible flesh while we are on this earth."
Sometimes people die when we pray for them to live; we don't know why. I worked in a cancer hospital and the doctor I worked for treated children with radiation therapy. These kids were beautiful, bright, loving, and sometimes in spite of all the doctor's best efforts, they just didn't survive. I was really, really pi$$ed at God over that for a while. I was even more upset with the people who would say stuff like that rose petal in heaven crap. But I believe that when mankind fell, over time sin has permeated not only the earth, but also our very genetics.
I do know one thing; God doesn't steal, kill, or destroy. That's Satan's gig.
Does God micromanage every one of us with a "plan" for our lives? Nah, I don't think so in the sense your acquaintance is suggesting. III John 2 is part of His ideal for us, though. I'm sure of that.
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brainfixed
i like this question a lot because it was the very question that kept me from really being able to look behind the curtain of the way international and seeing the little man playing a big god like creature, and it took a whole lot of therapy to unravel the tightly wound dogma thinking in my brain, and it was very hard work and very scary work and it didn't feel good at all and lots of times i threw up and cried and screamed all night long because it seemed like i was ripping away any shred of possiblity that there is a god at all, but in the end what happened for me was that i came to a quiet understanding of things that brought me lots of peace.
the first place my therapist started with me was to start thinking as if there was no god at all because i was so tightly wound up in my brain that everything was god this and god that and the adversary this and the adversary that, even to the point that i have read here many others were at that i believed it was god's favor on me for my great believing that i got all green lights on my way to work, or the best parking spot in the shopping center and really crazy thinking stuff like that. oh, and the really really crazy thinking about when the unbelievers won out over the believers and i tried to explain that it wasn't their god winning over my god, but their believing was bigger than my believing and how my god honored their believing because he was a just god and couldn't go against his own word and all that way international nonsense that was squeezing my brain almost until it popped! so my therapist worked with me a long long time to get me to the point where i looked at things without there having to be any spiritual beings involved at all but just that things happen by chance or by hit and miss. once i got to that point she asked me if i could then find places where there might me actual divine intervention.
and that's when i began to understand that looking for the signs of god at work was the opposite of faith, and that it was really a need for proof that god was working before i would believe for another work in my life. once i came to this understanding, i also came to the understanding of what people were trying to say to me when they were saying that god had a plan for my life or that god was in control, or at least my perception of what they were trying to say. but what i think those things mean is like what it says in the bible about god could have raised up children from the rocks. see, if it takes us to do something to get god's work done, then is he really god? like in a human family, the children don't go around worrying about how the bills get paid or how the food gets bought or how the laundry gets done. for the children, it just all happens without them thinking about it all. as the children grow and learn, then they might participate, but they don't get a full understanding until they are out on their own and make their own mistakes. no matter how well parents prepare children for being adults, until a child has bounced a few checks they don't really get what it means to keep a balanced check book.
so what i get from all of this is that according to the bible and many other holy books, as long as we are here, then we are still children, so we won't have an understanding of many things and we really don't need to worry about so many things because there's just not much we can do about them, anyway. what is that saying "the best laid plans of mice and men"? i'm going to look it up. here it is
i think that says it all.
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excathedra
i think his job is to love me
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Trefor Heywood
That poem above is NOT as written by Rabbie Burns!
Must be a "translation according to usage."
"I wish you could see it in the original..."
Well you can.
[bWee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murd'ring pattle!
I'm truly sorry man's dominion,
Has broken nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion,
An' fellow-mortal!
I doubt na, whiles, but thou may thieve;
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma' request;
I'll get a blessin wi' the lave,
An' never miss't!
Thy wee bit housie, too, in ruin!
It's silly wa's the win's are strewin!
An' naething, now, to big a new ane,
O' foggage green!
An' bleak December's winds ensuin,
Baith snell an' keen!
Thou saw the fields laid bare an' waste,
An' weary winter comin fast,
An' cozie here, beneath the blast,
Thou thought to dwell-
Till crash! the cruel coulter past
Out thro' thy cell.
That wee bit heap o' leaves an' stibble,
Has cost thee mony a weary nibble!
Now thou's turn'd out, for a' thy trouble,
But house or hald,
To thole the winter's sleety dribble,
An' cranreuch cauld!
But, Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain;
The best-laid schemes o' mice an 'men
Gang aft agley,
An'lea'e us nought but grief an' pain,
For promis'd joy!
Still thou art blest, compar'd wi' me
The present only toucheth thee:
But, Och! I backward cast my e'e.
On prospects drear!
An' forward, tho' I canna see,
I guess an' fear! ][/b]
Only the original is "burnspneustos"!
"Wince ye change the Worrd o' Rabbie, ye dinnae hae it ony mair." VP McWierwille.
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GarthP2000
Hiya Trevor! Good to see ya again.
I love it when people use the phrase "everything happens for a reason". Some people just need a public _beating_ for using such a manipulative phrase.
Here's a response to that to consider: "Of course things happen for a reason, you dolt! ... It's just that it's not always for the _right_ reason."
... THEN beat them.
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Ham
god bless you.. who, whatever, whomever that (she he or it) might be friend..
I wish our dear friend Mr. Burns would translate it properly for us Yanks..
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