I find it interesting that on the 7th day in Gen. 1, God rested from creating - and he's still resting - people tend to forget that.
I had been wondering a lot about the Fossil record - just millions of species had come and gone beginning about - oh, I forget, I think its 200million years ago that life first appeared (I am not a YE person). I had also wondered, why haven't we seen any new species since Adam was made? We should be, because the earth was a creation factory - according to the fossil record. Why did it stop?
Then I read somewhere - God is at rest from his creating. On the 7th day he rested and is still "resting" so to speak. There's a reason he was called Elohim - the Creator.
I think at the end of Rev. when he says, "Behold I make all things new" and the new heaven and earth are created - we will literally see him do it before our eyes - his rest will be over and no creature will ever "doubt" He is the one who creates all things.
Now, man does the creating - women give birth and another human is created, and, as you said, we build, make things do art, architecture, etc. - this is man's day to create. The creation drive is defintely a part of God's Image.
Just one problem with that. It intrepets the word "day" contrary to the context of the passage. Although II Peter 3:8 does provide the thousand years clause, the word day is used repeatedly in the first chapters of Genesis: the immediate context of the story. And all of those uses specifically stipulate that a day is one evening and one morning.
People attempting to resolve apparent contradictions in the scripture often leap form one verse to a completely different book to try to find an angle that seems to solve the problem. I call that context-hopping. VP did a lot of that.
Actually, if you maintain that their spirit left them in that 24 hour day (as Weirwille taught) or that the image of God was removed or something other than 'they themselves' died in that time period, you commit the same context-hopping leap by substituting 'thou' for something else. Scripturally, they did not die within the 24 hour period. So, what are our choices?
God lied
their spirit left -- which doesn't mean 'die'
our understanding of die and / or day and / thou may need changing
Since the Scripture in Peter does tell us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and that there is evidence in other parts of the Scripture that support the week of millenniums concept, I submit that it is our understanding of the word 'day' that needs enlightenment.
While the word 'day's' interpretation may contradict the immediate context of the usage in Genisis, it does not contradict the broader context of God's Word. The broader context allowing 'thou' to die and not only a part of them to 'leave'.
Another portion of Scripture that supports the week of millenniums idea is found in Joshua's long day -- another 24 hour period added (nearly) -- foreshadowing the age of Grace as in being nearly two-thousand years long (of which we are rapidly nearing the end.)
Speaking of context and the image of God, I think we should consider what it means when it says God made man in his image in light of what God is presented as in this section of the Bible. God spoke things into being, he created stuff. Then he made Adam and Eve in his image; in other words, he made them like him.
What that might mean is that he gave mankind the unique ability to create. To build, to invent to shape the world. None of the other living souls God put here can create language, art, technology, architecture, etc. Only man. I think that's what it means when it says He created man in his image.
But then again, I could be wrong. :-)
Maybe we need to understand image in context of 'image and likeness'. Certainly logic, reason, ability to create, etc., are part of it and I think you have a solid point but I think there is more to God's likeness and image including things like compassion, mercy, being able to forgive, love, holiness and, maybe, most importantly, morality. Being able to make moral decisions. This likeness may be very corrupted by now due to Sin but certainly only man exhibits such *character*. My understanding for the image and likeness of God is the displaying of His character, not merely having a spirit or being, in part, a spirit being.
...Maybe we need to understand image in context of 'image and likeness'. Certainly logic, reason, ability to create, etc., are part of it and I think you have a solid point but I think there is more to God's likeness and image including things like compassion, mercy, being able to forgive, love, holiness and, maybe, most importantly, morality. Being able to make moral decisions. This likeness may be very corrupted by now due to Sin but certainly only man exhibits such *character*. My understanding for the image and likeness of God is the displaying of His character, not merely having a spirit or being, in part, a spirit being.
And, yes, I can be wrong too.
That's a good point. It also reinforces the statement at the end of the chapter when God said "Behold the man is become as one of us to know good and evil." God had given them only good and they didn't have his sense of right and wrong. But man had the capacity to have that knowledge. And yes, we have some of His capacity for compassion, kindness, etc. all of which are part of his image and likeness.
I still don't favor the idea of the thousand year day. I know it leaves us with a contradiction but I guess my broader point is that there are going to be contradictions and gaps in our understanding that we just have to accept. We still can't even really agree on what the words soul and spirit mean. So why do we expect to be able to nail down exactly what kind of death Adam and Eve experienced 6,000 (or 20,000 or however many you want)years ago?
I understand that we want to be able to understand and explain allllll about the things of God. But we don't. And we won't until we receive whatever God has in store for us when we graduate from the body-soul-spirit plane to the next level.
Genesis holds a bucketfull of contradictions. Differing creation stories that merely correspond, yet don't exactly match. As for the old, "a dying you shall die" - well it's juxtaposed against "and all the days that Adam lived were nine-hundred and thirty years, and he died."
I did all this research once, >snicker< and came to the conclusion that God is heavy into Quantum events,......... ...that gives Him license to select as many outcomes as He likes --- and all of them turn out to be right!
I agree, I don't think we'll ever know exactly what it was that was lost. All we have are human words to try and describe it.
Regarding length of days, I sometimes think we fail to remember, God is in another "dimension" than we are.
Depending on what dimension one is operating out of, a day could equal a thousand years - or a billion years. If I could write on the screen here, I'd draw you a diagram illustrating this.
We know - ok, science does - there are at least 10 dimensions, and God operating outside of them gives an 11th place.
Gen. 1:1 shows "In the beginning God Created..." i.e., God was outside of our time and space when He created a universe and earth and a big bang. Science also knows there were probably 10 dimensions created in the first trillionth of a second and 4 "survived," so to speak, they believe there are 6, still curled up, like you'd curl up a piece of paper to make a straw, but they are trillions times tighter than that.
Thats why I always find statements like: our universe is "stretched out like a curtain" (Isaiah), or who can unseal the scroll in Revelation - there's some interesting pointers to something outside ourselves. Beginning with Gen. 1:1.
If you were standing on the earth, seeing the earth wrapped in an opaque darkness (which normally happens with a new planet), after a couple billion years you can now detect light, then a sun, then the moon is created (when Earth was hit with another planetary object the size of Mars - probably in what's now the Pacific), then you can now see stars and the darkness is gone and you can now establish day and night, now with light you can have basic amoeba life, then plants, then over billions of years flora and fauna, and so on. Gen 1:2 and so on - the first "creation" story, makes perfect sense if you are standing on the earth and watching things unfold.
How the earth lost its covering is an amazing scientific story in itself. We could have easily been a Venus - or Mars. Both planets are an example of what happens when things aren't fine tuned to the exquisite exactness that the earth needed to rid itself of the darkness - but yet, the processes that happened on earth - don't go too far. If they had, the result was Mars.
I won't go into why and how these things happened, but there are some good books by PH.ds. and astrophysists that explain exactly how it happens via science.
So, sometimes, when we read the Bible we need to take into account perspective. Is this narrative in Gen 1:2 and on, seen from being on the surface of the earth or outside of it? Outside of our time and space. I believe it is from the perspective of standing on the earth.
God's dealing with Moses, miracles, Christ walking on water and appearing as if by "magic" in a closed room - movement from one dimension to another - which is actually quite simple to do - if you have the ability to do it. We can see something outside of us, come into our territory - our dimension.
Science tells us how old the earth is. The Fossil record and geologic column tell us when things happened and were created and how long.
The first creation record in Genesis fits perfectly with the fossil and geologic record. The first creation record is a "how" and a chronological timeline that follows the fossil record, and to me, the second retelling, when things are repeated is more of a "why" discussion. You don't need a perfect chronological timeline.
So - who knows how long the days in Gen. 1 really were.
I was watching a Mythbusters episode last night, where they were testing the myth that people only use 10% of their brains.
They found out that people only use part of their brains at a time, but the particular part changes with the task being performed. So people use all of their brains, but never all at the same time. Most tasks take a little more than 10%, so that myth was busted, but the task that lit up more of the brain than any other, about 30-some-odd %, was STORYTELLING!!!!!!
Storytelling fires up MORE of the brain than science does!
I don't think we appreciate the value God puts on storytelling over science as a means for communicating truth!
I dunno. That whole 3-fold being shtick all seems like so much "so much". Know what I mean?
"Look, kids! You were nothing but a huffin', puffin' clump of skin and bones until you got spirit. Now you're superty duperty special, And it's because you have something that no one can even see. Yeah. You're part of the elite. So much more superior to the old, outdated model. And how can you be sure I'm telling the truth? Repeat after me-----Lo Shanta La Maka See Tay----"
I agree, I don't think we'll ever know exactly what it was that was lost. All we have are human words to try and describe it.
Regarding length of days, I sometimes think we fail to remember, God is in another "dimension" than we are.
Depending on what dimension one is operating out of, a day could equal a thousand years - or a billion years. If I could write on the screen here, I'd draw you a diagram illustrating this.
We know - ok, science does - there are at least 10 dimensions, and God operating outside of them gives an 11th place.
...
So - who knows how long the days in Gen. 1 really were.
No slight to Sunesis here - just a few thoughts...
The 10/11 Dimensions of M Theory are a rather dated (circa 1990's) view of quantum physics...
but whether 10 or 10 trillion or an infinite number - no way to test to be sure until they give me a 12 MEV electromagnet in 6 banks of 6 (figure the odds, it's not exactly a "green" idea there). The math says I could open a doorway to another dimension,... you can go first dear reader. >>Make a line, no pushing<<
M is for "Magic", M is also for "Mumbo-Jumbo", and for people the waste their time looking for the Higgs Bosun - Wild Geese, my friends.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
-- that's a similie - a comparison using like or as,... as is the following:
A Street is as a River
They're similar in comparative terms only. It's not a mathematical formula there, it's not intended to be either. It's just a comparison of concepts. Here's another one:
He was like a Tiger on the field.
Don't get carried away, don't get me started on this one....
Isa 57:15 (KJV) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones
Spirit baby, that's the Ticket! Hey Get your very own eternity Ticket! >>Make a line, no pushing<<
Why,.... you can Lo Shanta >snicker< or just go ahead and die - if you're just dying to find out
I have a feeling our being encased in a physical body for now is a learning experience, a decision of who you would like to spend eternity with and preparation for what our true life in eternity with a new spiritual body, will be. This body is a means to an end.
The end: Our new celestial, spiritual body.
Just as humans faint, tremble, fall like one dead, etc. in the Bible when they see an angel, and the angel has to help them to their feet,
I believe if a human saw us in the new spiritual bodies we will someday have, they'd fall down and worship us as Gods.
Our new spiritual bodies will be that amazing.
Made to live in a new heaven and new earth where the laws as we know them no longer apply, made to dwell with the light rather than faint at even a glimpse of it.
So, we can mock - now.
I almost think, just as the angels in Gen 6 left their heavnely habitation and came down to earth and gave themselves a physical form, it was a temptation for them.
If you have always been a spiritual being, would it not be tempting to see how it feels to live in a sensate body? To feel things, to touch things? I have often thought that was one of the temptations Satan used to get 1/3 of the angels to rebel with him.
If we start in physical bodies, in eternity future, we would never be tempted to become physical again - been there, done that.
One of the most effective methods i know of for examining the classic body-soul-spirit combo involves directing our attention to our immediate experience of body, soul and spirit.
The Christians of history who were most able to point them out for others were able to do so because they actually practiced going there for themselves…and quite often for most of their life. Yet the vast body of Christian art and writings on the matter are typically avoided/unknown due to our modern penchant for reinventing the wheel (like vpw), rather than standing on the shoulders of those who went before us.
As if we have stopped actually practicing and embodying what we find in God, and prefer mostly to talk about God and the things of God as if they are in some other place, or some other time. Mostly a modern detached western intellectual approach to things previously examined via the whole body, soul and spirit.
As if we have replaced actual practice and direct experience with mere conceptual and mental theologies, definitions and maps and models. While such maps and models are important, they are most helpful when seen as pointing to something in our immediate experience. If scripture is like the proverbial finger pointing at the moon, we do well not to limit our attention to the finger.
And this common idea that “we cant possibly know or see (God, spirit, afterlife, eternity, etc…)” seems to contradict the majority of scripture, as well as the people of scripture and Christian history. As if we have somehow come to believe that only a small minority of dead people were special enough to see or know anything so important, but no one alive today is.
This seems like the most effective way to remain ignorant of things that have already been known for thousands of years. But it is a common modern delusion in both religious and secular life, so it helps not to take it personal. We are all soaking wet with filters we inherited and are not yet aware of.
If so…how do we leave the realm of speculative religion and direct our attention to our immediate experience of body, soul and or spirit?
Practice, mostly. But not “practice that makes perfect,” but practice that makes us a little more accident prone for a grace more radical than mere belief.
Maybe as you sit there, or later, ask things like “What is body right now?” “Who is soul right now?” “Where is spirit right now?”
According to some, they are all right here to be found. And there is no way around some sense of humiliation of having looked elsewhere for so long.
Shame is what kept them from returning to eden. Not a literal flaming sword. Shame for having simply forgot. For having fallen asleep.
yeah...maybe more like 3 views of the same "event."
as some have put it...
the eye of the body sees the body,
the eye of the soul sees the soul,
the eye of the spirit sees the spirit.
or,
a objective/physical/biological/exterior view of the human experience,
a subjective/psychological/inward view of the human experience,
and then a view of the pre-existing unified field that both of those are happening in, often called things like "the Witness" or "I Amness" or "the mind of Christ" and such.
I personally like words like Gebser's "aperspectival" for this because the word is relatively new and has not been fragmented into so many hundreds of definitions and applications.
and so, maybe after all the mountains of energy is spent, the conventional quantum thinkers and tinkerers will finally see with their machines what some ancients saw from their naked human animal selves.
if so, i guess at least we will finally have a photograph, and not just some poetry of some hermit on a mountain. so perhaps it will be worth it after all.
perhaps like how in a yard there is 3 feet, but also 12 inches in each foot. and then even finer fractions.
there are many parts of parts of body, and many parts of parts of soul, as many parts of parts of spirit.
or like looking at a mountain chain from the upper atmosphere...all we can see is the major mountains....but if we get closer, we start to see the hills and finer distinctions between the primary ones.
like looking into smaller and finer aspects of biology, or the deeper layers of the psyche, or even fuller and fuller views of "spirit" that extend "beyond the end" of "the yard stick."
plenty of other analogies, all with their natural limits, but perhaps it conveys.
even further though...perhaps our view of body, soul and spirit can then be multiplied to a more pluralistic view of "bodies, souls and spirits".
and yeah...dare we say that there is "the eye of God" which sees "the eye of spirit"
like the sky that sees the winds.
or the ocean that sees the waves.
or the forest that sees the trees.
even the shop that sees the yardsticks.
a nondual perspective where that line between "spirit of God" and "spirit of man" is felt to be temporary, at best.
where that line between God and man, or anything for that matter, is seen a brief momentary illusion that most naturally begins to end somewhere midway between womb to tomb.
first a lucky glimpse, like an unborn chick interpreting a crack in its egg for the first time.
maybe even this is the perspective that guys like Jesus, Moses and Buddha where experiencing when they said "I am."
a glimpse of post-human consciousness or state of awareness, which is also our original state of consciousness,
as well as the ongoing background of our every moment...and our inevitable destination.
i think this is where the breath comes in historically, practically and otherwise...
and why it is typically the entry point to notice for yourself what the body-soul-spirit nameset is pointing towards.
not breathing in a specific way, necessarily, though there are other arts of that
but simply paying close attention how we are breathing as a highly effective place to start noticing our objective, subjective and more aperspectival parts.
not in theory, or words, or thoughts, or with a machine, or on paper
...but from where we are now.
if Jesus's "breath holy spirit" instruction, for example, is anything like the compassionate one-pointed breath meditations of Buddhists or Celts (both of which already "evangelized" the area centuries before), it may be that he was instructing them to do the same kind of things. No, not because he was buddhist or irish, but yeah, because he was as buddhist and irish as the sand or stars.
as if to say "sit down, shut up, close your eyes and breathe for awhile. and pay attention to what is happening, for that is who and where you are."
traditional preparation for the second half of life.
seems most of us moderns have been bred and trained to want to remain in the first half of life the whole time though (like in twi),
so we have very few social and cultural permissions to do the things that were the bread and butter of much of historic christianity.
body soul and spirit were more like supernatural powers in pfal. kindergarten stuff.
When we use the word "body" today, we use it in the same sense as we use the word "corpse", because the pioneers of modern medicine learned about "the body" by dissecting corpses. When they wrote about "the body," they were writing about things they had observed in corpses. Medical literature and popular culture became suffused with the notion that a body is a corpse.
I don't know exactly how Paul understood the word "body" (soma in the Greek), but I know how a majority of his readers understood the word, and it didn't have to do with corpses, except in an indirect tangential way. In the popular gentile culture of the first century, "body" was that property which enabled one thing to move another. For one thing to move another, the thing that was doing the pushing had to have "body," and the thing that was being pushed also had to have "body."
And the things didn't have to be material. Since emotions are things that move us (e-motions) each of the emotions in a person was conceived of as having its own, separate body.
If an ancient were asked to use a modern word to explain what he meant by "body," he would be more likely to pick the word "interface" rather than the word "corpse."
This becomes interesting when we think about the Church being the body of Christ. Not that the Church is the corpse of Christ, but that the Church is the interface through which Christ moves the world!
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Gen-2
Genesis holds a bucketfull of contradictions. Differing creation stories that merely correspond, yet don't exactly match. As for the old, "a dying you shall die" - well it's juxtaposed against "and
Sunesis
I have a feeling our being encased in a physical body for now is a learning experience, a decision of who you would like to spend eternity with and preparation for what our true life in eternity with
Sunesis
That's a very good point Jerry about creating.
I find it interesting that on the 7th day in Gen. 1, God rested from creating - and he's still resting - people tend to forget that.
I had been wondering a lot about the Fossil record - just millions of species had come and gone beginning about - oh, I forget, I think its 200million years ago that life first appeared (I am not a YE person). I had also wondered, why haven't we seen any new species since Adam was made? We should be, because the earth was a creation factory - according to the fossil record. Why did it stop?
Then I read somewhere - God is at rest from his creating. On the 7th day he rested and is still "resting" so to speak. There's a reason he was called Elohim - the Creator.
I think at the end of Rev. when he says, "Behold I make all things new" and the new heaven and earth are created - we will literally see him do it before our eyes - his rest will be over and no creature will ever "doubt" He is the one who creates all things.
Now, man does the creating - women give birth and another human is created, and, as you said, we build, make things do art, architecture, etc. - this is man's day to create. The creation drive is defintely a part of God's Image.
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
Genesis does not say who's day
The writer is telling the story as if he God wrote this
so God is telling the story
how long would take to created the Heaven and earth or everything needed
many 1,000 of years
how long would take to light every star could it be done in a man day. no!
lets give a fair changed
think about it seeds do not grow that fast
we have not even got to seven Day
creation is better translated "God in motion"
God is still in motion of finish his work
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Greek2me
Actually, if you maintain that their spirit left them in that 24 hour day (as Weirwille taught) or that the image of God was removed or something other than 'they themselves' died in that time period, you commit the same context-hopping leap by substituting 'thou' for something else. Scripturally, they did not die within the 24 hour period. So, what are our choices?
God lied
their spirit left -- which doesn't mean 'die'
our understanding of die and / or day and / thou may need changing
Since the Scripture in Peter does tell us that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and that there is evidence in other parts of the Scripture that support the week of millenniums concept, I submit that it is our understanding of the word 'day' that needs enlightenment.
While the word 'day's' interpretation may contradict the immediate context of the usage in Genisis, it does not contradict the broader context of God's Word. The broader context allowing 'thou' to die and not only a part of them to 'leave'.
Another portion of Scripture that supports the week of millenniums idea is found in Joshua's long day -- another 24 hour period added (nearly) -- foreshadowing the age of Grace as in being nearly two-thousand years long (of which we are rapidly nearing the end.)
Maybe we need to understand image in context of 'image and likeness'. Certainly logic, reason, ability to create, etc., are part of it and I think you have a solid point but I think there is more to God's likeness and image including things like compassion, mercy, being able to forgive, love, holiness and, maybe, most importantly, morality. Being able to make moral decisions. This likeness may be very corrupted by now due to Sin but certainly only man exhibits such *character*. My understanding for the image and likeness of God is the displaying of His character, not merely having a spirit or being, in part, a spirit being.
And, yes, I can be wrong too.
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year2027
God first
thanks Greek2me
where you find a day was 24 hours?
a day could be any time period
it only says a day was sunrise to sunset to sunrise
otherwise it does not say how long a day was
which sunset man's or God's
which sunrise man's or God's
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Jbarrax
That's a good point. It also reinforces the statement at the end of the chapter when God said "Behold the man is become as one of us to know good and evil." God had given them only good and they didn't have his sense of right and wrong. But man had the capacity to have that knowledge. And yes, we have some of His capacity for compassion, kindness, etc. all of which are part of his image and likeness.
I still don't favor the idea of the thousand year day. I know it leaves us with a contradiction but I guess my broader point is that there are going to be contradictions and gaps in our understanding that we just have to accept. We still can't even really agree on what the words soul and spirit mean. So why do we expect to be able to nail down exactly what kind of death Adam and Eve experienced 6,000 (or 20,000 or however many you want)years ago?
I understand that we want to be able to understand and explain allllll about the things of God. But we don't. And we won't until we receive whatever God has in store for us when we graduate from the body-soul-spirit plane to the next level.
For now we see through a glass darkly...
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Gen-2
Genesis holds a bucketfull of contradictions. Differing creation stories that merely correspond, yet don't exactly match. As for the old, "a dying you shall die" - well it's juxtaposed against "and all the days that Adam lived were nine-hundred and thirty years, and he died."
I did all this research once, >snicker< and came to the conclusion that God is heavy into Quantum events,......... ...that gives Him license to select as many outcomes as He likes --- and all of them turn out to be right!
Keep in Mind, I actually am a Physicist
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Sunesis
I agree, I don't think we'll ever know exactly what it was that was lost. All we have are human words to try and describe it.
Regarding length of days, I sometimes think we fail to remember, God is in another "dimension" than we are.
Depending on what dimension one is operating out of, a day could equal a thousand years - or a billion years. If I could write on the screen here, I'd draw you a diagram illustrating this.
We know - ok, science does - there are at least 10 dimensions, and God operating outside of them gives an 11th place.
Gen. 1:1 shows "In the beginning God Created..." i.e., God was outside of our time and space when He created a universe and earth and a big bang. Science also knows there were probably 10 dimensions created in the first trillionth of a second and 4 "survived," so to speak, they believe there are 6, still curled up, like you'd curl up a piece of paper to make a straw, but they are trillions times tighter than that.
Thats why I always find statements like: our universe is "stretched out like a curtain" (Isaiah), or who can unseal the scroll in Revelation - there's some interesting pointers to something outside ourselves. Beginning with Gen. 1:1.
If you were standing on the earth, seeing the earth wrapped in an opaque darkness (which normally happens with a new planet), after a couple billion years you can now detect light, then a sun, then the moon is created (when Earth was hit with another planetary object the size of Mars - probably in what's now the Pacific), then you can now see stars and the darkness is gone and you can now establish day and night, now with light you can have basic amoeba life, then plants, then over billions of years flora and fauna, and so on. Gen 1:2 and so on - the first "creation" story, makes perfect sense if you are standing on the earth and watching things unfold.
How the earth lost its covering is an amazing scientific story in itself. We could have easily been a Venus - or Mars. Both planets are an example of what happens when things aren't fine tuned to the exquisite exactness that the earth needed to rid itself of the darkness - but yet, the processes that happened on earth - don't go too far. If they had, the result was Mars.
I won't go into why and how these things happened, but there are some good books by PH.ds. and astrophysists that explain exactly how it happens via science.
So, sometimes, when we read the Bible we need to take into account perspective. Is this narrative in Gen 1:2 and on, seen from being on the surface of the earth or outside of it? Outside of our time and space. I believe it is from the perspective of standing on the earth.
God's dealing with Moses, miracles, Christ walking on water and appearing as if by "magic" in a closed room - movement from one dimension to another - which is actually quite simple to do - if you have the ability to do it. We can see something outside of us, come into our territory - our dimension.
Science tells us how old the earth is. The Fossil record and geologic column tell us when things happened and were created and how long.
The first creation record in Genesis fits perfectly with the fossil and geologic record. The first creation record is a "how" and a chronological timeline that follows the fossil record, and to me, the second retelling, when things are repeated is more of a "why" discussion. You don't need a perfect chronological timeline.
So - who knows how long the days in Gen. 1 really were.
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Ham
so... what happened to God when the universe was "created".. once created.. seems children assume the precedence..
some think He sacrificed a part of himself for this existence..
so He traded a certain percent of "certainty" for whatever this is..
did he choose to be outside, or inside..
somehow.. I think the "problem" will answer itself.. at least I hope so..
but from what I read.. he assumes precedence, as the majority of God..
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Steve Lortz
I was watching a Mythbusters episode last night, where they were testing the myth that people only use 10% of their brains.
They found out that people only use part of their brains at a time, but the particular part changes with the task being performed. So people use all of their brains, but never all at the same time. Most tasks take a little more than 10%, so that myth was busted, but the task that lit up more of the brain than any other, about 30-some-odd %, was STORYTELLING!!!!!!
Storytelling fires up MORE of the brain than science does!
I don't think we appreciate the value God puts on storytelling over science as a means for communicating truth!
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
Also, on that brain thing,... di'ja know? whenever you do the same thing, the same area of the brain is activated!
So,.... you might say........
Think a second now,..... with the proper scanning device invented, you could basically see what someone else was thinking - Amazing!
Now,.... who's gonna invent that Brain scanner thingie?
Scarey........
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Ham
You might have one of those already. It's called.. a conscience..
it scares the hell out of those who don't have it..
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waysider
I dunno. That whole 3-fold being shtick all seems like so much "so much". Know what I mean?
"Look, kids! You were nothing but a huffin', puffin' clump of skin and bones until you got spirit. Now you're superty duperty special, And it's because you have something that no one can even see. Yeah. You're part of the elite. So much more superior to the old, outdated model. And how can you be sure I'm telling the truth? Repeat after me-----Lo Shanta La Maka See Tay----"
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Gen-2
No slight to Sunesis here - just a few thoughts...
The 10/11 Dimensions of M Theory are a rather dated (circa 1990's) view of quantum physics...
but whether 10 or 10 trillion or an infinite number - no way to test to be sure until they give me a 12 MEV electromagnet in 6 banks of 6 (figure the odds, it's not exactly a "green" idea there). The math says I could open a doorway to another dimension,... you can go first dear reader. >>Make a line, no pushing<<
M is for "Magic", M is also for "Mumbo-Jumbo", and for people the waste their time looking for the Higgs Bosun - Wild Geese, my friends.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
-- that's a similie - a comparison using like or as,... as is the following:
A Street is as a River
They're similar in comparative terms only. It's not a mathematical formula there, it's not intended to be either. It's just a comparison of concepts. Here's another one:
He was like a Tiger on the field.
Don't get carried away, don't get me started on this one....
Isa 57:15 (KJV) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones
Spirit baby, that's the Ticket! Hey Get your very own eternity Ticket! >>Make a line, no pushing<<
Why,.... you can Lo Shanta >snicker< or just go ahead and die - if you're just dying to find out
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cman
@waysider, how ever many folds there are
I think they have always been here in us
just discovering them is more like what happens
meaning 'receiving' is more like unfolding
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Sunesis
I have a feeling our being encased in a physical body for now is a learning experience, a decision of who you would like to spend eternity with and preparation for what our true life in eternity with a new spiritual body, will be. This body is a means to an end.
The end: Our new celestial, spiritual body.
Just as humans faint, tremble, fall like one dead, etc. in the Bible when they see an angel, and the angel has to help them to their feet,
I believe if a human saw us in the new spiritual bodies we will someday have, they'd fall down and worship us as Gods.
Our new spiritual bodies will be that amazing.
Made to live in a new heaven and new earth where the laws as we know them no longer apply, made to dwell with the light rather than faint at even a glimpse of it.
So, we can mock - now.
I almost think, just as the angels in Gen 6 left their heavnely habitation and came down to earth and gave themselves a physical form, it was a temptation for them.
If you have always been a spiritual being, would it not be tempting to see how it feels to live in a sensate body? To feel things, to touch things? I have often thought that was one of the temptations Satan used to get 1/3 of the angels to rebel with him.
If we start in physical bodies, in eternity future, we would never be tempted to become physical again - been there, done that.
Who knows what comes in eternity? We don't.
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sirguessalot
One of the most effective methods i know of for examining the classic body-soul-spirit combo involves directing our attention to our immediate experience of body, soul and spirit.
The Christians of history who were most able to point them out for others were able to do so because they actually practiced going there for themselves…and quite often for most of their life. Yet the vast body of Christian art and writings on the matter are typically avoided/unknown due to our modern penchant for reinventing the wheel (like vpw), rather than standing on the shoulders of those who went before us.
As if we have stopped actually practicing and embodying what we find in God, and prefer mostly to talk about God and the things of God as if they are in some other place, or some other time. Mostly a modern detached western intellectual approach to things previously examined via the whole body, soul and spirit.
As if we have replaced actual practice and direct experience with mere conceptual and mental theologies, definitions and maps and models. While such maps and models are important, they are most helpful when seen as pointing to something in our immediate experience. If scripture is like the proverbial finger pointing at the moon, we do well not to limit our attention to the finger.
And this common idea that “we cant possibly know or see (God, spirit, afterlife, eternity, etc…)” seems to contradict the majority of scripture, as well as the people of scripture and Christian history. As if we have somehow come to believe that only a small minority of dead people were special enough to see or know anything so important, but no one alive today is.
This seems like the most effective way to remain ignorant of things that have already been known for thousands of years. But it is a common modern delusion in both religious and secular life, so it helps not to take it personal. We are all soaking wet with filters we inherited and are not yet aware of.
If so…how do we leave the realm of speculative religion and direct our attention to our immediate experience of body, soul and or spirit?
Practice, mostly. But not “practice that makes perfect,” but practice that makes us a little more accident prone for a grace more radical than mere belief.
Maybe as you sit there, or later, ask things like “What is body right now?” “Who is soul right now?” “Where is spirit right now?”
According to some, they are all right here to be found. And there is no way around some sense of humiliation of having looked elsewhere for so long.
Shame is what kept them from returning to eden. Not a literal flaming sword. Shame for having simply forgot. For having fallen asleep.
Thank God the shame does eventually pass.
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cman
Amen Brother.
and as if the body soul and spirit are separate, or 3
they are not
the body takes on newness as well as the soul and spirit
cause i don't think the body is a limit but a real perception
quite real
as is the soul and spirit
as one changes so does the rest
the soul and the spirit and the body moving in unison
always
so if one is holding back so are the others
the direction is lead by any of them
without leaving the other behind
so accordingly, what can be seen as limiting?
any of the multiple identities we assume to be present
from any of the 3 in this context anyways...
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sirguessalot
yeah...maybe more like 3 views of the same "event."
as some have put it...
the eye of the body sees the body,
the eye of the soul sees the soul,
the eye of the spirit sees the spirit.
or,
a objective/physical/biological/exterior view of the human experience,
a subjective/psychological/inward view of the human experience,
and then a view of the pre-existing unified field that both of those are happening in, often called things like "the Witness" or "I Amness" or "the mind of Christ" and such.
I personally like words like Gebser's "aperspectival" for this because the word is relatively new and has not been fragmented into so many hundreds of definitions and applications.
and so, maybe after all the mountains of energy is spent, the conventional quantum thinkers and tinkerers will finally see with their machines what some ancients saw from their naked human animal selves.
if so, i guess at least we will finally have a photograph, and not just some poetry of some hermit on a mountain. so perhaps it will be worth it after all.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
can it four parts or more
as some have put it...
the eye of the body sees the body,
the eye of the soul sees the soul,
the eye of the spirit sees the spirit.
the eye of the god sees the god.
or how about as some have put it...
the eye of the body sees the body,
the eye of the soul sees the soul,
the eye of the spirit sees the spirit.
the eye of mortal sees the old man becoming new
the eye of the god sees the god.
or maybe as some have put it...
the eye of the cell sees the cells.
the eye of the body sees the body,
the eye of the soul sees the soul,
the eye of the spirit sees the spirit.
the eye of the god sees the god.
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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sirguessalot
seems so to me, Roy
perhaps like how in a yard there is 3 feet, but also 12 inches in each foot. and then even finer fractions.
there are many parts of parts of body, and many parts of parts of soul, as many parts of parts of spirit.
or like looking at a mountain chain from the upper atmosphere...all we can see is the major mountains....but if we get closer, we start to see the hills and finer distinctions between the primary ones.
like looking into smaller and finer aspects of biology, or the deeper layers of the psyche, or even fuller and fuller views of "spirit" that extend "beyond the end" of "the yard stick."
plenty of other analogies, all with their natural limits, but perhaps it conveys.
even further though...perhaps our view of body, soul and spirit can then be multiplied to a more pluralistic view of "bodies, souls and spirits".
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sirguessalot
and yeah...dare we say that there is "the eye of God" which sees "the eye of spirit"
like the sky that sees the winds.
or the ocean that sees the waves.
or the forest that sees the trees.
even the shop that sees the yardsticks.
a nondual perspective where that line between "spirit of God" and "spirit of man" is felt to be temporary, at best.
where that line between God and man, or anything for that matter, is seen a brief momentary illusion that most naturally begins to end somewhere midway between womb to tomb.
first a lucky glimpse, like an unborn chick interpreting a crack in its egg for the first time.
maybe even this is the perspective that guys like Jesus, Moses and Buddha where experiencing when they said "I am."
a glimpse of post-human consciousness or state of awareness, which is also our original state of consciousness,
as well as the ongoing background of our every moment...and our inevitable destination.
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sirguessalot
i think this is where the breath comes in historically, practically and otherwise...
and why it is typically the entry point to notice for yourself what the body-soul-spirit nameset is pointing towards.
not breathing in a specific way, necessarily, though there are other arts of that
but simply paying close attention how we are breathing as a highly effective place to start noticing our objective, subjective and more aperspectival parts.
not in theory, or words, or thoughts, or with a machine, or on paper
...but from where we are now.
if Jesus's "breath holy spirit" instruction, for example, is anything like the compassionate one-pointed breath meditations of Buddhists or Celts (both of which already "evangelized" the area centuries before), it may be that he was instructing them to do the same kind of things. No, not because he was buddhist or irish, but yeah, because he was as buddhist and irish as the sand or stars.
as if to say "sit down, shut up, close your eyes and breathe for awhile. and pay attention to what is happening, for that is who and where you are."
traditional preparation for the second half of life.
seems most of us moderns have been bred and trained to want to remain in the first half of life the whole time though (like in twi),
so we have very few social and cultural permissions to do the things that were the bread and butter of much of historic christianity.
body soul and spirit were more like supernatural powers in pfal. kindergarten stuff.
...
ok, im done for awhile. too much can be said, no?
thanks again for starting the thread Twinky.
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Steve Lortz
When we use the word "body" today, we use it in the same sense as we use the word "corpse", because the pioneers of modern medicine learned about "the body" by dissecting corpses. When they wrote about "the body," they were writing about things they had observed in corpses. Medical literature and popular culture became suffused with the notion that a body is a corpse.
I don't know exactly how Paul understood the word "body" (soma in the Greek), but I know how a majority of his readers understood the word, and it didn't have to do with corpses, except in an indirect tangential way. In the popular gentile culture of the first century, "body" was that property which enabled one thing to move another. For one thing to move another, the thing that was doing the pushing had to have "body," and the thing that was being pushed also had to have "body."
And the things didn't have to be material. Since emotions are things that move us (e-motions) each of the emotions in a person was conceived of as having its own, separate body.
If an ancient were asked to use a modern word to explain what he meant by "body," he would be more likely to pick the word "interface" rather than the word "corpse."
This becomes interesting when we think about the Church being the body of Christ. Not that the Church is the corpse of Christ, but that the Church is the interface through which Christ moves the world!
Love,
Steve
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Sunesis
Interface - I like that a lot.
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