It's an interesting and important topic. I haven't done an exhaustive study of the terms, but did review the PFAL teaching on it when we were working through the PFAL Review way back in Waydale era. Here's what I found in a nutshell
VP's teaching that spirit, soul, and body are analogous to formed,made and created is flawed. It's clearly contradicted by Genesis 1:18 (Let us make man in our image). If the verb "make" is used only of man's soul, and the image of God is spirit, the verse should say "let us create man in our image". So this is just another one of Weirwille's attempts to insert "mathematic accuracy and scientific precision" where it doesn't exist in the Scriptures.
The usages of these terms throughout the Bible tends to change depending on the writer and context. Sometime the word spirit (pneuma or ruach) is used to depict an anointing from God such as the spirit of God that enabled the prophets of the Old Testament. Sometimes it seems to communicate the heart or soul; that inner identity of a person that drives the flesh.
(I Corinthians 2:11)
Imho, there really isn't a clearcut, biblically consistent definition of these terms. You have to look at the context. To his credit, that's kind of what VP did in Receiving the Holy Spirit today with the 8 or so different "usages" of the word pneuma. He offered different definitions depending on the context. But he still tried to shoehorn the collective usages into very narrowly defined meanings that supported his doctrines. I don't think that's an honest approach to the subject.
As for whether a soul needs to be saved or lives on, there are variant Scriptures that speak of different things. Since the word "spirit" is sometimes used synonymously with soul, one could say that when someone is born again, their spirit is saved. But if we're referring to the threefold Christian addressed in I Thessalonians 5:23, we assume that spirit and soul aren't the same thing. VP's teaching that the soul dies when you take your last breath and that only the spirit continues into heaven runs afoul of Revelation 20:4.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The context obviously, is a period of time during the Milennial Reign of Christ, after Jesus' return in judgement. These are saints, who were faithful unto death; martyrs. So we must assume they had spirit, soul, and body. They were beheaded so obviously they died. Yet their souls are seen in heaven. According to VP's pre-tribulation rapture doctrine (which is also not in harmony with I Corinthians chapter 15, btw) this would occur after the gathering together, so these people should be Christians in their glorious new bodies. But the use of the word souls (translated from psuche, not pneuma), contradicts that expectation.
If the soul dies and the spirit lives on, St. John the Revelator goofed here and used--gasp!-- the wrong word! According to VP, the whole Bible falls to pieces. You know God has a reason for everything he says, where he says it, how he says it. etc, etc.
If these folks have souls after they've died and gone to heaven, VP's slicing and dicing of body, soul, and spirit doesn't work.
So what we have to decide is this; Does the Bible use the words spirit and soul as distinctively as we were taught, or are they basically synonymous terms used to refer to the part of man that is beyond the realm of the physical?. I Thess 5:23 implies a difference between one's soul and one's spirit. I Cor 2:11 implies the opposite.
Personally, I don't think there is a clear answer. This is just another example of the complexity of Biblical language. The Bible is not an infallible, integral, harmonious truth. It's a tapestry of truths received, interpreted and communicated through the veils and filters of human minds. It can't be put together without contradictions and inconsistencies. And tempting as it is to try, we really shouldn't. It's a waste of time and energy. The more we try to turn spiritual truths into empirical data, the less real good we do for God and for one other.
Thanks, JBarrax. I like the analogy of the "tapestry of truths."
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Clearly soul and spirit are different things.
The context of this is faith (or belief) and "resting" in that faith. Ceasing our own works.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
So this is about motives - whether the fleshly "old man" or the spiritual "new man in Christ."
I fail to see why, having divided them asunder, they should need to be reunited (as this teacher says).
And yet, as JBarrax says...what is this soul doing in Revelation?? Interesting!
At the end of the day, it really is all about love God, love your fellow human beings and not getting overly intellectual about it to the point of distraction.
I will ponder this in the next few weeks until further teaching sessions on this topic (couple of weeks, I think) but welcome further suggestions, discussion, whatever.
Joints and marrow are completely different things.
Joints are connections between bones, joined by cartilage and other connective tissues. The bones are strong and the connective tissues must be strong also - but flexible.
A joint is the location at which two or more bones make contact. They are constructed to allow movement and provide mechanical support, and are classified structurally and functionally.
Joints are mainly classified structurally and functionally. Structural classification is determined by how the bones connect to each other, while functional classification is determined by the degree of movement between the articulating bones. There are three structural classifications of joints:
fibrous joint - joined by fibrous connective tissue
cartilaginous joint - joined by cartilage
synovial joint - not directly joined
Marrow, on the other hand, is a soggy sort of stuff that has no strength in itself but is utterly essential to life as we know it. It's contained inside bones
Bone marrow is a special, spongy, fatty tissue that houses stem cells, located inside a few large bones. These stem cells transform themselves into white and red blood cells and platelets, essential for immunity and circulation. Anemia, leukemia, and other lymphoma cancers can compromise the resilience of bone marrow. Bone marrow transplants are a growing treatment for these conditions of the lymphatic system that can't be otherwise cured.
Our skull, sternum, ribs,pelvis, and femur bones all contain bone marrow, but other smaller bones do not. Inside this special tissue, immature stems cells reside, along with extra iron. While they are undifferentiated, the stem cells wait until unhealthy, weakened, or damaged cells need to be replaced. A stem cell can turn itself into a platelet, a white blood cell like a T-cell, or a red blood cell. This is the only way such cells get replaced to keep our body healthy.
One could separate a joint with a sharp implement (a sword).
One could not separate marrow with a sword. A bone could be severed and the marrow scooped out.
It's quite clear that both have different functions. But ideally, in a healthy body, neither should be separated from adjacent parts.
Dunno if that takes this any further, but the biology lesson is interesting, LOL.
I'll take a little stab on part of the question - re: the souls in heaven.
I have changed my mind, I do believe that when we die our "spirit" does go to be with the Lord.
I think there is a difference in Revelation - in the new administration which begins with Tribulation and Wrath, it is very interesting when it talks about the "souls" of them that were beheaded for not taking the mark of the Beast.
Today, we are told that we are sealed, or "marked" by the Holy Spirit. I find it interesting that the followers of Satan (the Beast - Satan incarnate) will have their own seal, mark, or, as I call it, a counterfeit image of God.
But, anyway, I also think, that after this "Age of Grace" is over, the Holy Spirit will have a different function as mankind enters into the Return of Christ and the Millenium period. I don't consider the Millenium era a "new" beginning, but I consider it the end of God's dealing with mankind - a time when all sin and unrighteousness shall be dealt with. It will be a time when Satan - finally - gets his wish to rule the earth and all mankind. It will be a time when the tares are finally sifted from the wheat. It will be a time when Israel repents and realizes who the Messiah was and is, it will be a time when the Gentiles rail against God with no one to restrain them. Before Christ returns, it will be a hell on earth.
I've digressed...
I believe, it will not be available to be "born again" in the Coming Lord's day as it is now. I believe the message has pretty much gotten over the world. There is the written word, prophets, apostles, etc. today, the Holy Spirit whose function now is to "convict" - or give every person a chance in their heart to decide if they want to know God and Christ, there are books, tapes, CDs, Internet, preachers, missionaries - especially with the internet - knowledge flows to the whole world - all can freely know today if they want - google it.
In the tribulation and wrath - the just will have no choice but to live by faith. They will be followers of those people God has sent to witness on the earth - the two witnesses, the 12,000 sealed from every Jewish tribe - the Word will be taught. The Word will be: Christ is the Messiah. Follow him. Remember, there will be only two groups then: Jew and Gentile. Gentile will be welcome to become followers of Messiah but there will be no Holy Spirit given internally to them, as we have now. I believe it will be more as it was in the OT - a spokesman for God has the Spirit upon them.
Many will heed and follow - probably some who have heard today but have chosen to reject, or put it off. But, the price of following Christ will be your life.
Grace is over. It is a new administration - the Lord's administration. Holiness will begin to reign and judge. Evil must be put away.
So, since I believe it will not be available to be born again in the tribulation, that's why you see the "souls" of them who were beheaded for Christ. They are the overcomers, the members of the 7 churches in the beginning of Rev., the "overcomers" who gave up their lives for Him, those who refused to worship Satan and take his mark. ..."to those who overcome..." These will now live and reign with him 1000 years.
Once the Tribulation and Wrath are over, God literally writes the law by the Spirit in Israel's hearts - in each individual heart. They lead and rule over the gentiles in the coming millenia. "A gentile will see a jew and 10 men will grab onto his hem and say, let me go with you, God is with you..." (Jeremiah - I believe - paraphrase, I don't have a Bible available right now) as Israel now is able to fulfill its long aborted, and awaited mission - to rule over the Gentiles and be a conduit of God's blessing to them and over the earth as promised to Abraham millenia ago.
So, I think "souls" may be accurate in that administration.
I consider it the end of God's dealing with mankind
if God ends something man has no hope for ever being saved but God is said to have love toward all men
a time when all sin and unrighteousness shall be dealt with.
what is not sin?
a time where I no longer live No even death is a sin
what is unrighteousness?
what is not unrighteousness? nothing
I believe, it will not be available to be "born again" in the Coming Lord's day
you can believe that but i do not
I believe, it will not be available to be "born again" in the Coming Lord's day as it is now. I believe the message has pretty much gotten over the world. There is the written word, prophets, apostles, etc. today, the Holy Spirit whose function now is to "convict" - or give every person a chance in their heart to decide if they want to know God and Christ, there are books, tapes, CDs, Internet, preachers, missionaries - especially with the internet - knowledge flows to the whole world - all can freely know today if they want - google it.
you got a computer but what about the person that does not even a changed to google it
people that think are fools watch the history cha. some time learn about the world
two groups then: Jew and Gentile
are not we all Jews?
are not we all Gentiles?
are not we all weak and without hope?
once you label people you judge them? but God has no false judgements his judgement is right
God does not judge people by rather they were a Jew or Gentile or what ever faith believe in God judgement is of heart of the spirit
all men kind were conceived by the blood of Christ
Course with all the talk about the incorruptible seed.. God's image.. "holy" spirit.. New man.. Born again..
While I understand TWIs take on it..
Has anyone ever considered they are all very separate things ?
And that God's image isn't "holy" spirit.. Nor is the incorruptible seed... Or even the one new man.
And that very possibly, God's image is actually something one does and can very readily SEE daily! An image that shows the very nature and heart of God? Rather than some invisible unknown that can only be known by some mystic manifestation which still keeps that image invisible.
I no longer believe that man was originally a three part being, consequently, I no longer believe in Wierwille's definition of salvation.
Genesis 2:7
"7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh chai]."
Notice that the verse DOESN'T say God formed man's BODY from the dust of the ground. It says God formed MAN of the dust of the ground. Then air began to move in and out of Adam, and he BECAME a living soul. A person who is drawing breath is a living soul. What happens when a person stops drawing breath?
Leviticus 21:11
"11 Neither shall he [the high priest] go in to any dead body [nephesh muth = “dead soul”]…"
Numbers 6:6
"6 All the days that he [a person who vowed the vow of a Nazarite] separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body [nephesh muth = “dead soul”]."
Numbers 19:13
"13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth = “dead soul”] of any man that is dead [muth = “dead”], and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul [nephesh = “soul”] shall be cut off from Israel…"
The Greeks and other gentiles in the ancient world believed that man was a two part being, a material, mortal body animated by an immaterial, immortal soul. That wasn't the worldview of the authors of the Old Testament. To them, when the air stopped moving in and out of a soul, that soul died. In Numbers 19:13, we see a living soul get into trouble for touching a dead soul, and not washing up afterward.
The literal meaning of spirit (ruach in the Hebrew, pneuma in the Greek) is "air in motion". All breath is spirit, air in motion, but not all spirit is breath, air moving in and out of a soul. Breath is so closely associated with being alive that "spirit" took on the figurative meaning of "life", especially as evidenced by the power to move.
As I Live and Breathe,... Soul, as "life"... soul-life. A living dog is better than a dead lion. Dead souls aren't very lively - they don't have any thoughts. Well, till they're quickened (made alive again).
I'd like to think that I'll write a book after i die, explaing just exactly WTF does indeed happen. But the SAD truth is,... I'm still alive - and too selfish to die for you all!
We'll all know one day, I'd like to think someone's up there preparing my mansion for me.
My opinion - just opinion here, is that possibly Adam wore his "image" or spirit on the outside of his body.
There was something about him that creatures, animals - when they saw him - they knew he was not just another another biped - not just one of them.
When God said, you shall die if you do this one thing, we know it wasn't Adam's body that died and it wasn't his soul - his nephesh - his breath life that died.
I think it was that "image" that died. I don't know what it looked like. But its loss was so horrific he tried to cover himself - tried to put something back on.
God was the root. Adam was a branch created and grown from the root. Adam chopped the branch off willfully. He fell. Or, he cut the umbilical cord to the womb - the nourisher.
I think that's why he was so comforted when God told him he would send a redeemer.
Only another new created branch - one who stayed connected to the root, could redeem him.
A fallen branch cannot redeem another fallen branch. Adam had to patiently wait for the creation of another branch by God - but what a hope! Adam would someday be reconnected to the root from whence he was created.
So, I tend to think that it was some sort of image/spirit that died.
That is why we, as body and nephish, we are given a "new creation" when we are born again. Somehow, we can reconnect with the root in part - not fully - yet.
Unless a new spirit is put in is, we are a fallen branch. We have no connection to a root.
When I think of the transfiguration of Christ in his body recorded in the gospels - I think that's somewhat what we will be like someday. Something in Christ's body came to the fore for all to see. I think that's possibly what Adam looked like, or something similar, in his perfected state before the fall.
Wierwille taught that Adam and Eve were three part beings: body, soul and spirit, and that their spirit must have died on the day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, since their bodies and souls didn't die on that very day. I submit that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" is NOT a literal statement about the timing of their deaths, but an intensifier of the truth that from the day of their disobedience, they could be certain that they would die.
Man is a soul animated by breath (or spirit). If Adam's "spirit" had died on the day of disobedience, if he had stopped breathing, then the soul that Adam was would have died within three minutes or so.
I currently think that the image of God is the responsibility and the concomitant freedom to make moral decisions.
I no longer believe that there is a "senses realm" and a "spiritual realm." I think that spiritual activities are all part of a unitary cosmos. I do not think the Bible ever uses the word "spirit" to indicate the substance of a parallel, immaterial cosmos inaccessible to the senses.
Some people think the truth that Eve was deceived and Adam wasn't makes Eve culpable. I don't think so. The other day, I heard a fellow considering that Adam might have been right there beside Eve while the serpent tempted her, not saying a word. If that had been the case, then Adam was using Eve as a guinea pig. He didn't know if he would die right away from eating the fruit, so he let Eve do it first. If Eve would have died, Adam would have said to God, "That durned woman you gave me went and ate the apple. Now she's dead. Make me another one!" As it was, when Adam saw that Eve didn't die right away, he ate also.
These are all good thoughts, but, regarding what part of Adam died when he sinned isn't that simple. We've all accepted Weirwilles teaching (and that of other fundamentalists) that some part of Adam died when he sinned. Of course God told Adam for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
It's not that simple.
If you read the rest of the story carefully you will see another perspective. The serpent said to Eve
"Ye shall not surely die. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."
Okay, Satan's a liar right? Well not quite...What actually happened?
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
It says their eyes were opened. That's what the serpent told them would happen. Moreover, God himself confirms it. Read verse 22.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So. God said "thou shalt surely die." The serpent said they wouldn't die but that their eyes would be opened to know good and evil, which would make them like gods. A blasphemous lie, surely. But God says that they did indeed become "as one of us, to know good and evil". So, according to what's actually written in the Bible, Adam and Eve did not die. They became as gods and acquired the knowledge of good and evil.
So rather than trying to twist our minds into knots figuring out what part of them died and when, perhaps we should be asking ourselves why the serpent's prediction is the one that came true, and why God was trying to prevent that.
If one were bolder than I, one could make the argument that God lied to Adam and Eve and that the serpent told the truth. This would be heresy in almost any Church, but that's essentially what the Bible tells us here. What the serpent predicted happened. But it was not a good thing. Therefore, if God did lie to Adam and Eve, that was not inherently bad.
If the Gestapo came to your door and asked you to hand over your mother, would you lie about her whereabouts? Would that make you evil?
So why did God try to keep Adam and Eve from having their eyes opened to the knowledge of good and evil? Well maybe it's because once they acquired that knowledge, their children filled the earth with violence and became so degraded that God wiped them all out and started over.
What looked like a blessing was such a curse that God did everything he could short of violating their freedom of will in order to prevent it. Maybe they weren't ready for that knowledge and God wanted to keep them in a state of moral ignorance--and therefore innocence-- until they had matured enough to handle it.
I think those are the more important lessons and questions from this section of Genesis.
i think the basic 'body-soul-spirit' is ever a valid way to describe this primary trio of differences in our experience. quite comparable the 'gross-subtle-causal' of the east. or a more modern 'biological-psychological-contemplative' nameset. or even 'waking, dreaming and deep dreamless states" in the fields of consciousness....or 'objective-subjective-nondual' if you like jazz. seems like it all becomes valid once everyone is looking at the same whole elephant.
regardless...i cant help but agree with some who have said that if we are lucky, the 'path of entry' for all of us actually flows in more of a spirit-soul-body direction...and if we are luckier, we are conceived and born..even more lucky, we age and die and otherwise experience life in a general body-soul-spirit direction.
as if... its not that we have to somehow get or acquire a body, soul or spirit...or even that we've lost anything...but that we most naturally and innocently do not notice them at all all at first. and simply aging is a series of humbling but inevitable disillusionments and crisis of identity. in this sense...both Jesus Christ and all of us are the prodigal son...somewhere between home and home.
...perhaps it can even be said that the whole world has been waking up in that body-soul-spirit direction...in waves...and fields...and such. and the world is currently at the stage where it is rapidly starting to realize how far from home it is. perhaps worth calling the "face down in the gutter with some important choices to make stage".
seems like it.
which is perfect...because it suggest that we are finally half way there.
There is also another take which has some merit to my mind. That is... "the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" actually happened to Adam and Eve... i.e., THEY actually died in THAT day.... not their spirit, or their image, or something else, but they actually, literally died themselves just as God said they would.
2 Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
No person lived more than a thousand years so in a sense we all die in the day we eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The above fits with the idea that creation being 6 days and the seventh being the Lord's Sabath. Arguably, we are near the end of the 6 thousand years (6 days) since Adam and will soon head into the Lord's Sabbath (the day of the Lord).
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Gen-2
Genesis holds a bucketfull of contradictions. Differing creation stories that merely correspond, yet don't exactly match. As for the old, "a dying you shall die" - well it's juxtaposed against "and
Sunesis
I have a feeling our being encased in a physical body for now is a learning experience, a decision of who you would like to spend eternity with and preparation for what our true life in eternity with
year2027
God first
thanks Twinky
three tracks to the body of men
the form or beginning of the body
the life of the body
the decay of the body
the making or birth of men body
the living of men's body
the death of men body
the conceiving or creation of men spiritual body
the awaking or life inside the Christ of men or self
the changed into a god kind
three powers inside powers
a lot to think about
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Twinky
Thanks, Roy, but not sure that helps.
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year2027
God first
thanks Twinky
the heart is what form
the heart is what made
the heart is what created
the heart is life of the body
the heart is what gives strength to the soul
the heart is what gives image to the spirit
there a fleshly heart
there a life to the heart
there a spiritual heart
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Jbarrax
Hi Twinky.
It's an interesting and important topic. I haven't done an exhaustive study of the terms, but did review the PFAL teaching on it when we were working through the PFAL Review way back in Waydale era. Here's what I found in a nutshell
VP's teaching that spirit, soul, and body are analogous to formed,made and created is flawed. It's clearly contradicted by Genesis 1:18 (Let us make man in our image). If the verb "make" is used only of man's soul, and the image of God is spirit, the verse should say "let us create man in our image". So this is just another one of Weirwille's attempts to insert "mathematic accuracy and scientific precision" where it doesn't exist in the Scriptures.
The usages of these terms throughout the Bible tends to change depending on the writer and context. Sometime the word spirit (pneuma or ruach) is used to depict an anointing from God such as the spirit of God that enabled the prophets of the Old Testament. Sometimes it seems to communicate the heart or soul; that inner identity of a person that drives the flesh.
(I Corinthians 2:11)
Imho, there really isn't a clearcut, biblically consistent definition of these terms. You have to look at the context. To his credit, that's kind of what VP did in Receiving the Holy Spirit today with the 8 or so different "usages" of the word pneuma. He offered different definitions depending on the context. But he still tried to shoehorn the collective usages into very narrowly defined meanings that supported his doctrines. I don't think that's an honest approach to the subject.
As for whether a soul needs to be saved or lives on, there are variant Scriptures that speak of different things. Since the word "spirit" is sometimes used synonymously with soul, one could say that when someone is born again, their spirit is saved. But if we're referring to the threefold Christian addressed in I Thessalonians 5:23, we assume that spirit and soul aren't the same thing. VP's teaching that the soul dies when you take your last breath and that only the spirit continues into heaven runs afoul of Revelation 20:4.
The context obviously, is a period of time during the Milennial Reign of Christ, after Jesus' return in judgement. These are saints, who were faithful unto death; martyrs. So we must assume they had spirit, soul, and body. They were beheaded so obviously they died. Yet their souls are seen in heaven. According to VP's pre-tribulation rapture doctrine (which is also not in harmony with I Corinthians chapter 15, btw) this would occur after the gathering together, so these people should be Christians in their glorious new bodies. But the use of the word souls (translated from psuche, not pneuma), contradicts that expectation.
If the soul dies and the spirit lives on, St. John the Revelator goofed here and used--gasp!-- the wrong word! According to VP, the whole Bible falls to pieces. You know God has a reason for everything he says, where he says it, how he says it. etc, etc.
If these folks have souls after they've died and gone to heaven, VP's slicing and dicing of body, soul, and spirit doesn't work.
So what we have to decide is this; Does the Bible use the words spirit and soul as distinctively as we were taught, or are they basically synonymous terms used to refer to the part of man that is beyond the realm of the physical?. I Thess 5:23 implies a difference between one's soul and one's spirit. I Cor 2:11 implies the opposite.
Personally, I don't think there is a clear answer. This is just another example of the complexity of Biblical language. The Bible is not an infallible, integral, harmonious truth. It's a tapestry of truths received, interpreted and communicated through the veils and filters of human minds. It can't be put together without contradictions and inconsistencies. And tempting as it is to try, we really shouldn't. It's a waste of time and energy. The more we try to turn spiritual truths into empirical data, the less real good we do for God and for one other.
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year2027
God first
thanks Jbarrax
when you understand words like that
because one word gives a right meaning and no word gives a wrong meaning
like God himself he more than a god and less than a god
like spirit can be translated as heart, image, kind, new man, and many more words
three images
the image of self
the image that we see on the outside
the inner self of the person
but I can also name four images
the image of my world
the image of my organs
the image of heat put off by my world
the light coming myself that reflected
one can see them self as a god and as a fleshly and as one cell of a person
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Twinky
Thanks, JBarrax. I like the analogy of the "tapestry of truths."
Clearly soul and spirit are different things.
The context of this is faith (or belief) and "resting" in that faith. Ceasing our own works.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
So this is about motives - whether the fleshly "old man" or the spiritual "new man in Christ."
I fail to see why, having divided them asunder, they should need to be reunited (as this teacher says).
And yet, as JBarrax says...what is this soul doing in Revelation?? Interesting!
Hebrews 4
At the end of the day, it really is all about love God, love your fellow human beings and not getting overly intellectual about it to the point of distraction.
I will ponder this in the next few weeks until further teaching sessions on this topic (couple of weeks, I think) but welcome further suggestions, discussion, whatever.
(Okay, let's see if the link works now...)
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waysider
But, then, maybe the point being made in that verse is that they shouldn't be divided asunder.
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Twinky
Why d'you say that, Froggie?
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waysider
Well, how often do you separate joints from marrow? (except for rendering and that sort of thing.)
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Twinky
Joints and marrow are completely different things.
Joints are connections between bones, joined by cartilage and other connective tissues. The bones are strong and the connective tissues must be strong also - but flexible.
Marrow, on the other hand, is a soggy sort of stuff that has no strength in itself but is utterly essential to life as we know it. It's contained inside bones
One could separate a joint with a sharp implement (a sword).
One could not separate marrow with a sword. A bone could be severed and the marrow scooped out.
It's quite clear that both have different functions. But ideally, in a healthy body, neither should be separated from adjacent parts.
Dunno if that takes this any further, but the biology lesson is interesting, LOL.
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waysider
It's a good thing it wasn't written during the 1960s.
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Twinky
I could be 100% certain that that's not the kind of joint referred to!
Seriously, though...anybody else got any comments?
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year2027
God first
thanks Twinky
how is soul different from spirit?
there both parts of the body that be said to be dust and nothing
like god is more than i could ever dream up and god is less than could ever dream of
like bone marrow and join
it all dust being separate from nothing
otherwise what I do see being separate from what I do not see
that the meaning of a god
that god in nutshell
or out a nutshell
or the nutshell
or not even a nutshell
or nothing like nutshell
all of above is given us image of god and what we will be
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Sunesis
I'll take a little stab on part of the question - re: the souls in heaven.
I have changed my mind, I do believe that when we die our "spirit" does go to be with the Lord.
I think there is a difference in Revelation - in the new administration which begins with Tribulation and Wrath, it is very interesting when it talks about the "souls" of them that were beheaded for not taking the mark of the Beast.
Today, we are told that we are sealed, or "marked" by the Holy Spirit. I find it interesting that the followers of Satan (the Beast - Satan incarnate) will have their own seal, mark, or, as I call it, a counterfeit image of God.
But, anyway, I also think, that after this "Age of Grace" is over, the Holy Spirit will have a different function as mankind enters into the Return of Christ and the Millenium period. I don't consider the Millenium era a "new" beginning, but I consider it the end of God's dealing with mankind - a time when all sin and unrighteousness shall be dealt with. It will be a time when Satan - finally - gets his wish to rule the earth and all mankind. It will be a time when the tares are finally sifted from the wheat. It will be a time when Israel repents and realizes who the Messiah was and is, it will be a time when the Gentiles rail against God with no one to restrain them. Before Christ returns, it will be a hell on earth.
I've digressed...
I believe, it will not be available to be "born again" in the Coming Lord's day as it is now. I believe the message has pretty much gotten over the world. There is the written word, prophets, apostles, etc. today, the Holy Spirit whose function now is to "convict" - or give every person a chance in their heart to decide if they want to know God and Christ, there are books, tapes, CDs, Internet, preachers, missionaries - especially with the internet - knowledge flows to the whole world - all can freely know today if they want - google it.
In the tribulation and wrath - the just will have no choice but to live by faith. They will be followers of those people God has sent to witness on the earth - the two witnesses, the 12,000 sealed from every Jewish tribe - the Word will be taught. The Word will be: Christ is the Messiah. Follow him. Remember, there will be only two groups then: Jew and Gentile. Gentile will be welcome to become followers of Messiah but there will be no Holy Spirit given internally to them, as we have now. I believe it will be more as it was in the OT - a spokesman for God has the Spirit upon them.
Many will heed and follow - probably some who have heard today but have chosen to reject, or put it off. But, the price of following Christ will be your life.
Grace is over. It is a new administration - the Lord's administration. Holiness will begin to reign and judge. Evil must be put away.
So, since I believe it will not be available to be born again in the tribulation, that's why you see the "souls" of them who were beheaded for Christ. They are the overcomers, the members of the 7 churches in the beginning of Rev., the "overcomers" who gave up their lives for Him, those who refused to worship Satan and take his mark. ..."to those who overcome..." These will now live and reign with him 1000 years.
Once the Tribulation and Wrath are over, God literally writes the law by the Spirit in Israel's hearts - in each individual heart. They lead and rule over the gentiles in the coming millenia. "A gentile will see a jew and 10 men will grab onto his hem and say, let me go with you, God is with you..." (Jeremiah - I believe - paraphrase, I don't have a Bible available right now) as Israel now is able to fulfill its long aborted, and awaited mission - to rule over the Gentiles and be a conduit of God's blessing to them and over the earth as promised to Abraham millenia ago.
So, I think "souls" may be accurate in that administration.
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year2027
God first
thanks Sunesis
let me point some the holes in your understanding
if God ends something man has no hope for ever being saved but God is said to have love toward all men
what is not sin?
a time where I no longer live No even death is a sin
what is unrighteousness?
what is not unrighteousness? nothing
you can believe that but i do not
you got a computer but what about the person that does not even a changed to google it
people that think are fools watch the history cha. some time learn about the world
are not we all Jews?
are not we all Gentiles?
are not we all weak and without hope?
once you label people you judge them? but God has no false judgements his judgement is right
God does not judge people by rather they were a Jew or Gentile or what ever faith believe in God judgement is of heart of the spirit
all men kind were conceived by the blood of Christ
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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TrustAndObey
Course with all the talk about the incorruptible seed.. God's image.. "holy" spirit.. New man.. Born again..
While I understand TWIs take on it..
Has anyone ever considered they are all very separate things ?
And that God's image isn't "holy" spirit.. Nor is the incorruptible seed... Or even the one new man.
And that very possibly, God's image is actually something one does and can very readily SEE daily! An image that shows the very nature and heart of God? Rather than some invisible unknown that can only be known by some mystic manifestation which still keeps that image invisible.
Well, that's my view..
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Steve Lortz
I no longer believe that man was originally a three part being, consequently, I no longer believe in Wierwille's definition of salvation.
Genesis 2:7
"7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [nephesh chai]."
Notice that the verse DOESN'T say God formed man's BODY from the dust of the ground. It says God formed MAN of the dust of the ground. Then air began to move in and out of Adam, and he BECAME a living soul. A person who is drawing breath is a living soul. What happens when a person stops drawing breath?
Leviticus 21:11
"11 Neither shall he [the high priest] go in to any dead body [nephesh muth = “dead soul”]…"
Numbers 6:6
"6 All the days that he [a person who vowed the vow of a Nazarite] separateth himself unto the Lord he shall come at no dead body [nephesh muth = “dead soul”]."
Numbers 19:13
"13 Whosoever toucheth the dead body [nephesh muth = “dead soul”] of any man that is dead [muth = “dead”], and purifieth not himself, defileth the tabernacle of the Lord; and that soul [nephesh = “soul”] shall be cut off from Israel…"
The Greeks and other gentiles in the ancient world believed that man was a two part being, a material, mortal body animated by an immaterial, immortal soul. That wasn't the worldview of the authors of the Old Testament. To them, when the air stopped moving in and out of a soul, that soul died. In Numbers 19:13, we see a living soul get into trouble for touching a dead soul, and not washing up afterward.
The literal meaning of spirit (ruach in the Hebrew, pneuma in the Greek) is "air in motion". All breath is spirit, air in motion, but not all spirit is breath, air moving in and out of a soul. Breath is so closely associated with being alive that "spirit" took on the figurative meaning of "life", especially as evidenced by the power to move.
Genesis 3:19b
"19b ...for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
The Bible always associates identity with a soul's dust component. There's a heck of a lot more, but that's enough for now.
Love,
Steve
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Gen-2
As I Live and Breathe,... Soul, as "life"... soul-life. A living dog is better than a dead lion. Dead souls aren't very lively - they don't have any thoughts. Well, till they're quickened (made alive again).
I'd like to think that I'll write a book after i die, explaing just exactly WTF does indeed happen. But the SAD truth is,... I'm still alive - and too selfish to die for you all!
We'll all know one day, I'd like to think someone's up there preparing my mansion for me.
[grin]
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cman
I think of the mount of transfiguration.
Jesus' whole being was changed.
Be it body soul and spirit or whatever you think.
Another thing is, dust is alive and living, not dead.
Just my 2 sense to ponder....
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Sunesis
Its very interesting to ponder.
My opinion - just opinion here, is that possibly Adam wore his "image" or spirit on the outside of his body.
There was something about him that creatures, animals - when they saw him - they knew he was not just another another biped - not just one of them.
When God said, you shall die if you do this one thing, we know it wasn't Adam's body that died and it wasn't his soul - his nephesh - his breath life that died.
I think it was that "image" that died. I don't know what it looked like. But its loss was so horrific he tried to cover himself - tried to put something back on.
God was the root. Adam was a branch created and grown from the root. Adam chopped the branch off willfully. He fell. Or, he cut the umbilical cord to the womb - the nourisher.
I think that's why he was so comforted when God told him he would send a redeemer.
Only another new created branch - one who stayed connected to the root, could redeem him.
A fallen branch cannot redeem another fallen branch. Adam had to patiently wait for the creation of another branch by God - but what a hope! Adam would someday be reconnected to the root from whence he was created.
So, I tend to think that it was some sort of image/spirit that died.
That is why we, as body and nephish, we are given a "new creation" when we are born again. Somehow, we can reconnect with the root in part - not fully - yet.
Unless a new spirit is put in is, we are a fallen branch. We have no connection to a root.
When I think of the transfiguration of Christ in his body recorded in the gospels - I think that's somewhat what we will be like someday. Something in Christ's body came to the fore for all to see. I think that's possibly what Adam looked like, or something similar, in his perfected state before the fall.
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Steve Lortz
Wierwille taught that Adam and Eve were three part beings: body, soul and spirit, and that their spirit must have died on the day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, since their bodies and souls didn't die on that very day. I submit that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" is NOT a literal statement about the timing of their deaths, but an intensifier of the truth that from the day of their disobedience, they could be certain that they would die.
Man is a soul animated by breath (or spirit). If Adam's "spirit" had died on the day of disobedience, if he had stopped breathing, then the soul that Adam was would have died within three minutes or so.
I currently think that the image of God is the responsibility and the concomitant freedom to make moral decisions.
I no longer believe that there is a "senses realm" and a "spiritual realm." I think that spiritual activities are all part of a unitary cosmos. I do not think the Bible ever uses the word "spirit" to indicate the substance of a parallel, immaterial cosmos inaccessible to the senses.
Some people think the truth that Eve was deceived and Adam wasn't makes Eve culpable. I don't think so. The other day, I heard a fellow considering that Adam might have been right there beside Eve while the serpent tempted her, not saying a word. If that had been the case, then Adam was using Eve as a guinea pig. He didn't know if he would die right away from eating the fruit, so he let Eve do it first. If Eve would have died, Adam would have said to God, "That durned woman you gave me went and ate the apple. Now she's dead. Make me another one!" As it was, when Adam saw that Eve didn't die right away, he ate also.
Love,
Steve
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Jbarrax
These are all good thoughts, but, regarding what part of Adam died when he sinned isn't that simple. We've all accepted Weirwilles teaching (and that of other fundamentalists) that some part of Adam died when he sinned. Of course God told Adam for in the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.
It's not that simple.
If you read the rest of the story carefully you will see another perspective. The serpent said to Eve
Okay, Satan's a liar right? Well not quite...What actually happened?
It says their eyes were opened. That's what the serpent told them would happen. Moreover, God himself confirms it. Read verse 22.
So. God said "thou shalt surely die." The serpent said they wouldn't die but that their eyes would be opened to know good and evil, which would make them like gods. A blasphemous lie, surely. But God says that they did indeed become "as one of us, to know good and evil". So, according to what's actually written in the Bible, Adam and Eve did not die. They became as gods and acquired the knowledge of good and evil.
So rather than trying to twist our minds into knots figuring out what part of them died and when, perhaps we should be asking ourselves why the serpent's prediction is the one that came true, and why God was trying to prevent that.
If one were bolder than I, one could make the argument that God lied to Adam and Eve and that the serpent told the truth. This would be heresy in almost any Church, but that's essentially what the Bible tells us here. What the serpent predicted happened. But it was not a good thing. Therefore, if God did lie to Adam and Eve, that was not inherently bad.
If the Gestapo came to your door and asked you to hand over your mother, would you lie about her whereabouts? Would that make you evil?
So why did God try to keep Adam and Eve from having their eyes opened to the knowledge of good and evil? Well maybe it's because once they acquired that knowledge, their children filled the earth with violence and became so degraded that God wiped them all out and started over.
What looked like a blessing was such a curse that God did everything he could short of violating their freedom of will in order to prevent it. Maybe they weren't ready for that knowledge and God wanted to keep them in a state of moral ignorance--and therefore innocence-- until they had matured enough to handle it.
I think those are the more important lessons and questions from this section of Genesis.
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sirguessalot
i think the basic 'body-soul-spirit' is ever a valid way to describe this primary trio of differences in our experience. quite comparable the 'gross-subtle-causal' of the east. or a more modern 'biological-psychological-contemplative' nameset. or even 'waking, dreaming and deep dreamless states" in the fields of consciousness....or 'objective-subjective-nondual' if you like jazz. seems like it all becomes valid once everyone is looking at the same whole elephant.
regardless...i cant help but agree with some who have said that if we are lucky, the 'path of entry' for all of us actually flows in more of a spirit-soul-body direction...and if we are luckier, we are conceived and born..even more lucky, we age and die and otherwise experience life in a general body-soul-spirit direction.
as if... its not that we have to somehow get or acquire a body, soul or spirit...or even that we've lost anything...but that we most naturally and innocently do not notice them at all all at first. and simply aging is a series of humbling but inevitable disillusionments and crisis of identity. in this sense...both Jesus Christ and all of us are the prodigal son...somewhere between home and home.
...perhaps it can even be said that the whole world has been waking up in that body-soul-spirit direction...in waves...and fields...and such. and the world is currently at the stage where it is rapidly starting to realize how far from home it is. perhaps worth calling the "face down in the gutter with some important choices to make stage".
seems like it.
which is perfect...because it suggest that we are finally half way there.
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Greek2me
There is also another take which has some merit to my mind. That is... "the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" actually happened to Adam and Eve... i.e., THEY actually died in THAT day.... not their spirit, or their image, or something else, but they actually, literally died themselves just as God said they would.
2 Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
No person lived more than a thousand years so in a sense we all die in the day we eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The above fits with the idea that creation being 6 days and the seventh being the Lord's Sabath. Arguably, we are near the end of the 6 thousand years (6 days) since Adam and will soon head into the Lord's Sabbath (the day of the Lord).
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