A Jewish Perspective on Homosexuality

[Abigail]

My cousin posted this article on Facebook and I thought it was worth sharing here. Keep in mind the reference to wearing tefillin would indicate this rabbi is pretty orthodox.

The article can be found HERE

Here are two parts I especially liked:

There are 613 commandments in the Torah. One is to refrain from gay sex. Another is for men and women to marry and have children. So when Jewish gay couples come to me for counselling and tell me they have never been attracted to the opposite sex in their entire lives and are desperately alone, I tell them, “You have 611 commandments left. That should keep you busy. Now, go create a kosher home with a mezuza on the door. Turn off the TV on the Sabbath and share your festive meal with many guests. Put on tefillin and pray to God three times a day, for you are His beloved children. He desires you and seeks you out.”

and

I have numerous gay friends whose greatest fear, like so many straight people, is to end up alone. Should we merely throw the book at these people? Does not the same book, the Bible, also say, “It is not good for man to be alone?” And all I’m asking from my religious brethren is this: Even as you oppose gay relationships because of your beliefs, please be tortured by your opposition. Understand that when our most deeply held beliefs conflict with our basic humanity, we should feel the tragedy of the conflict, rather than simply find convenient scapegoats upon whom to blame all of America’s ills.

Emphasis added by me.

[year2027]

God first

thanks Abigail

come people this is subject

do not be afraid

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[sirguessalot]

thanks abi. not much to say about homosexuality at the moment.

but whether the writers know it or not, seems like they are at least asking the reader to basically turn their attention in the opposite direction of how most are conditioned.

not just specifically regarding the sexuality part, but the broader advise to "be tortured by your opposition" part...as if some jews were jungian long long before jung was even jungian.

seems to me a sign that not all that is called "orthodox" or "religion" is merely what one might call ancestral, magical or mythological...some is also quite rational and social and more.

personally, i have come to prefer and recommend reaching for full expressions of all of the above...as an natural anatomy of sorts.

and if all of them suffer when even one suffers...what happens if all of them are neglected but one?

[sirguessalot]

i find it interesting to compare the story of Jacob Wrestling with the Angel...

And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

...with the shadow in psychology

According to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else.

The shadow may appear in dreams and visions in various forms, and typically 'appears as a person of the same sex as that of the dreamer'

Interactions with the shadow in dreams may shed light on one's state of mind. A conversation with the shadow may indicate that one is concerned with conflicting desires or intentions.

The impact of such 'confrontation with the shadow produces at first a dead balance, a standstill that hampers moral decisions and makes convictions ineffective...tenebrositas, chaos, melancholia'. Consequently (as Jung knew from personal experience) 'in this time of descent - one, three, seven years, more or less - genuine courage and strength are required', with no certainty of emergence. Nevertheless Jung remained of the opinion that while 'no one should deny the danger of the descent...every descent is followed by an ascent...enantiodromia'; and assimilation of - rather than possession by - the shadow becomes at last a real possibility.

individuation is the process through which a person becomes his/her 'true self'. Hence it is the process whereby the innate elements of personality; the different experiences of a person's life and the different aspects and components of the immature psyche become integrated over time into a well-functioning whole. Individuation might thus be summarised as the stabilizing of the personality.

Neveretheless Jungians warn that 'acknowledgement of the shadow must be a continuous process throughout one's life'

...the grim 'process of washing one's dirty linen in private', accepting one's shadow.

... in light of homosexuality

[year2027]

God first

Homosexual means the men becomes women

And the women becomes men is not that true?

10-21-2010

What is homosexual any way but people playing the wrong part in life? Is it legal to be homosexual or is it against the law, no it is not? With God there is not any gender because it only matters to the flesh but with spirit there not a different.

When we are conceive in the womb we could grow into any sex but soon know whether we will have sex organs on outside or inside. I do not know which week one is male or female? But it is just the way it is but women are not less than men are men are less than women there just people.

Now one can today change their sex with science but that only changes the look of the person. It does change habits they have got used to they must the mind set after what it is to be a different sex. If you are human you thought about it?

I asking some questions that you might be afraid to answer you might run from this subject but do not be afraid of them. Because it is in the subject it just what other will think that you are afraid of. But I not to push because when your ready your reply to this subject. Thank you, with love and a holy kiss Roy.

[Ham]

Right now, I feel like I have 612 commandments I'm working on..

maybe I'm just lucky..

[Ham]

I love the quotes of the fundamentalist character here..

maybe we really are exhibiting some kind of shift of consciousness..

or self-realization.

one cosmic inch at a time..

[Ham]

Right now, I feel like I have 612 commandments I'm working on..

maybe I'm just lucky..

ha..

I'm still alone. That's the biggie, isn't it..

I understand why and all..

Christ.. that defines our existence, doesn't it?

scary thoughts..

but seriously, in front of the Creator.. I'm seriously working on the rest..

I wrestled with an "angel" once. No, I didn't win..

I think we called it a draw..

Ya.. "I am no less " what is the word.. I'm about in the same state now, as then..

I am no less dysfunctional than you..

dear friend.. thank you for starting this thread..

Edited October 22, 2010 by Ham

[Ham]

I should have asked.. does the Creator have some kind of aversion to red wine?

we could add that one to the rest of the 611 that apply here..

make it 610 "issues" I'm working on..

sorry, I'm not trying to be obnoxious. Just another old sorry sonofabitch.. trying to find my way through all of this..

[Ham]

maybe I should not say more..

:)

what can I say friend.. is this Kaballah.. or isn't it..

maybe I'm just nuts. I'll assume that title, well..

what are we..

[Ham]

the last friend I had..

excuse the spelling. He assumed the title "Meshuginah"..

If that's the best I can expect.. well, there are worst fates..

Gpd bless you Martin.

sorry, I shouldn't say..

I'm just an observer here..

[Ham]

Sorry. I can't help..

he married a Goy..

she was too damned practical.

One more word Martin... and...

Martin defined the big laugh..

I don't care how much money he embodied.. he didn't either, either..

[Ham]

He and his brother..

maybe I shouldn't say..

they used to sing.. after orChristmas Sales..

"what a friend, we have in Jesus.."

sorry.. he told me..

God bless you friend..

He told me they used to offer a thanksgiving turkey. It was still alive..

the guy would deliver the range, oven.. refrigerator, or whatever it was..

"here is your turkey, Mahm.."

It was still alive. Feathers and all..

God bless you, dear friend, Martin..

where do we go from here..

Sorry. I'm a innocent(?) bystander here..

sorry..

I tend to see th Jewish perspective on EVERYTHING..

heh

Martin was really.. one of a kind. When he was born, they broke the mold..

I hope I live up to the same kind of reputation..

[Ham]

so.. the scary question remains.. what are we..

[cman]

not that scary

cause you are

seen

you seeing you, seeing you, ain't so bad

once the and a few layers of crap are washed of

by the wind and water hitting hard enough

Edited October 23, 2010 by cman

[Ham]

ha!

yeah, not so bad, is it..

I was almost afraid to revisit this thread.. wondered how much I embarrassed myself..

I can understand the Hindu perspective a lot of the time as well.. there are a couple of their laws I am struggling with as well..

but this one Rabbi Abi quoted.. this guy is WONDERFUL..

In a weird way, I hope he doesn't figure that out..

just keep going the way you're going, fella..

[Ham]

ah friend Martin. I don't know why it is.. people tend to tell me everything.. no vow of secrecy, or anything..

He used to sell Pigeons..

maybe his story needs told..

I don't know why..

He would sell pigeons. And less than a half an hour, unless the unwary buyer confined them in a cage..

they would be back in Martin's pigeon coup..

the buyer would show up.. "have you seen my pigeons.."

"noooooo..."

Even in Way days.. this character probably was the closest to a "father" I had..

I never even CARED about any difference in religion, or commitment..

I mourn the loss..

:)

[Ham]

Thank you for posting this topic, dear friend Abi..

I hope it got the results you wanted..

:)

[Ham]

there are a few others.. who told me their story..

usually, others don't get it.. unless..

1. It's a matter of public record. That is.. the in law who grew pot in his basement.. you would never hear it from me, unless the state of Michigan first entered his abode..

2. The person departed from this world.. then it's more like.. their existence in present reality depends on being recognized by the rest of us humans who are lucky enough to be left behind..

I'm waiting. The last one who talked with me.. I'm going to suggest an English Composition class..

it

maybe keep a journal..

don't worry too much about the legal implications..

it's a story, to be told. Just not by me..

unless you come under category number two..

[Abigail]

Thank you for posting this topic, dear friend Abi..

I hope it got the results you wanted..

:)

I had no particular results in mind. Really just a food for thought kind of thing. I thought it was pretty cool that even a Rabbi as orthodox as this one appears to be, does not condemn homosexuals.

[Twinky]

Lots of things are wrong in God's eyes.

Lust, greed, envy, adultery. Splitting up marriages. Abusing children.

Pride, arrogance, lording it over God's people - over anybody.

Bullying and taking advantage. Bribes.

Or just plain not honoring and loving God with all your heart.

Let him that is without sin cast the first stone.

My life isn't perfect either. You wouldn't have to look too deeply to see the bits that are less than what God would like to see. But I do my best.

I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather people found a secure and loving relationship that helped them reach their maximum potential as human beings - than condemn them. There is more to a person than their sexuality.

Doesn't mean I like what they do.

It does mean that I can view them with compassion and be pleased that they can love and be loved..

As, in the same way, I endeavor to have compassion on those who fall short in other ways...and that's sometimes harder.

I do not forget that flagrant homosexuals were kinder to me than my so-called "Christian" brethren when I was M&A'd. If I were God (ha ha), I know which ones I'd be angrier at.

Thanks for posting the words of this wise rabbi, Abigail.

[WordWolf]

Does not the same book, the Bible, also say, “It is not good for man to be alone?”

Funny to see such a SELECTIVE quote.

Genesis 2:18

(NKJV)

And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”

(NASB)

Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."

So, what did the LORD God do about it?

Genesis 2:21-24

(NKJV)

"21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23 And Adam said:

“This is now bone of my bones

And flesh of my flesh;

She shall be called Woman,

Because she was taken out of Man.”

24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh."

(NASB)

"21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.

22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.

23The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones,

And flesh of my flesh;

She shall be called Woman,

Because she was taken out of Man."

24For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."

From this Rabbi's comment, one would think that God said "It's not good for man to be alone" and then endorsed any and

all types of companionship. The LORD God seems to have set up a rather specific answer to this from the beginning.

This Rabbi's entitled to his opinion, certainly, but he seems to disagree with the very passage he's quoting.

(That's probably why he cut the very sentence in half. It's as honest as saying the Bible says

"There is no God" because Psalm 14:1 and Psalm 53:1 say "The fool has said in his heart,'There is no God.' ”)

...rather than simply find convenient scapegoats upon whom to blame all of America’s ills.

False Dilemma.

There's more options than saying "You can either consider those who dedicate themselves to a specific sin

as convenient scapegoats upon whom to blame all of America's ills"

and

"You must consider all positions and beliefs as equally valid, true and beneficial to self and society."

In between are things like praying for adulterers while still saying they should "Go and sin no more",

and so on. That's true of any sin. I see no reason to polarize the discussion of any sin to only

the two polar opposites and leave out healthier approaches....

....unless one means to distort the point of view one disagrees with and wishes to pretend one's

own POV is the only one approaching reasonable by hiding the truth.

That's neither logical, honest, nor compassionate to those who hold honest beliefs different to one's own.

I wouldn't bring this up, but this Rabbi WAS the one who made the comparison in the first place.

[ClayJay]

Ya know, I spent a good bit of time on what I thought was an insightful post, clicked "add reply", and it never showed up. :(

[sirguessalot]

i think Wordwolf has a valid point

easy enough to over-correct and end up in a ditch

also easy enough to over-correct in response to the over-correction and end up in a different ditch on the other side

meaning, the rabbi has a valid point, and has maybe stated it a bit too simply

just sayin

Edited December 15, 2010 by sirguessalot

[Ham]

I dunno. So what would you personally do.. if you woke up one morning and found your soul mate was one of the same sex..

no, it hasn't happened to me.

I think loy was on the mark in some ways.. it isn't about the SEX.

or the act..

maybe for some it is or was..