There's a difference between preaching and teaching. Preaching is calling attention to the subject, teaching is getting into the nuts and bolts of how to understand the subject. In terms of fly fishing, preaching is the lure, teaching is the hook. Wierwille preached a lot of things that were true about Jesus Christ and God, but what he practised and taught were far different and just self-serving.
There were a lot of people at the twig level who were honestly doing their best to love God and help his people. God was able to work with and through those people. But as people advanced through the "Way tree of learning," we were manipulated into turning our hearts to serving the MOG and away from serving the Lord.
The truths that Wierwille preached as a lure were Noble. His practices and teachings were as Base as they could be.
TWI was the best and worst thing I did with 16 years of my life for all kinds of reasons, but the loss, the waste, the regrets, the deceit is profound, today and always.
As you're aware, Newlife, this last year has been the most challening, painful, frightening year our little family has experienced and those emotions of TWI and what it cost are a daily thought for me. Then I find thankfulness that I am not in TWI while we're experiencing these things.
There was something Noble, so I thought, about what TWI promoted. That there was an absolute truth to be known, and that we had a "mission" to tell people about the truth. That was appealing to me. Had it been genuine, it would have been a beautiful journey spiritually. There were things about the ministry that were excellent, in my opinion, like the music and singers we had. In the beginning, when I saw and learned that things were done in a way to be a blessing to people it kind of blew my mind. There were things I learned that I had never learned growing up...like commitment, responsibility.
What I guess I am saying is, from the very first, everything was beautiful...and appealing. I had been looking for a "family" having come from a family which didn't function, this group met a huge void in my life. For someone like me, who wanted to serve God for my lifetime, I thought this was "it".....I totally believed that this was everything I had been looking for and wanted.
The very fact that I was deceived really affected me for a long time......At first it was, God, if in fact it was you, why did you lead me to this group when it turned out so badly. I couldn't figure it out. I was upset because I felt that my "best years" had been stolen away from me. The middle years of my life, when people were to be settled with a career, family etc....I felt like I had lost them and it angered me. And it angered me that this was not "it"...the plan I had perceived it to be for my life with God.
But had it been different, to me there was something noble, and something very much appealing to me in knowing truth and then telling people about God, cause I really did believe in "evangelism" from being brought up in the church. But TWI was not real and it was not genuine. The devil makes it all seem "Godly" when it is not at all. His ministers like "shining lights"
Had it been different........But it wasn't. Did you feel at first, the same as I did???
newlife.......lots of stuff to unravel, eh?
For me, in 1974.......it WAS different, it WAS real. When I took pfal, it was the simple truths of the life, death, resurrection and ascention and pentecost.....that changed me! I had no interest in joining a group. With laser-like focus, I embraced my heavenly Father's love for me and the deliverance He so freely gave. Life was simple. Life was awesome.
Far from Ohio......I had NO INTEREST in the wierwille spiels. I had zero interest in wierwille anything! I was too involved on reading my Bible and walking with the Lord. I saw some healings and small miracles. My zeal for all things Christian was my world.
On the twig level........it was simple and sweet. Sure, there were the "needy" people and a couple of moochers, but most were just trying to live for God and "find purpose" as members in particular. Heck, that first year.....I don't remember ever listening to a sunday service tape or tape of the month. It didn't matter. Wierwille didn't matter. It was God's calling and delivering His people.......nothing else mattered. Well, almost nothing. :)
After two years WOW.....and some pressuring me to go corps, I signed up. The corps indoctrination was all about wierwille and serving in "his" ministry. I detailed this stuff plenty here at GS.
Had it been different.......had wierwille been "the man whom Christ wanted him to be"......then, I seriously doubt that there'd be this GreaseSpot Cafe website. Without the fraud and deception and narcissism and sexual predation......those whose who wanted to live the twi/christian lifestyle would have, and those who didn't want it, wouldn't. End of story.
Thank you, Newlife, I am a strong woman but more than that I have to accept my choices that brought me to today. TWI was one of those choices.
Would I have been able to give Kelly the recent care she's needed had we still been involved? Probably not and the price emotionally would have been such a higher one. Would Samantha's life be accepted and supported and assist given if we were still in TWI? Not a chance; of that I have no doubt.
God does things when God does things and I gotta be in the right place at the right time to do what He needs me to do and how.
It's gotta be that simple for me. I hope I get tomorrow to do it again and I hope I keep making mistakes and learning and I hope I get it right from time to time.
I kept on with it because I actually believed the B.S. that they had some special handle on the one and only TRUTH. So I felt a moral obligation to support the lameazzed outfit, I guess.
But I never volunteered what I did with my time on weekends or those two weeks in August to anyone outside of the TWI community. And when the real truth about what a disgusting little cult TWI was finally came out, I was even more ashamed to have gone along with such a bunch of farking loons and against my own intuition.
So, yeah, there's shame of allowing oneself to be made of fool of, and then anger at wasting all those years and money on something so goddam stupid.
Thanks Skyrider for reminding me it was "real" to me and in fact for a very long time.....it was real. And I should say, I did see God work personally in my own life in many and various ways.
I'm afraid the reality of what it really was came to light......and for a long, long, time, I ached on the inside for the lost of something that at one time I really loved. Had people really had God First instead of a man or a ministry......I can't even fathom the potential had it been different.
Appreciate the honesty and heart of everyone's post.
I kept on with it because I actually believed the B.S. that they had some special handle on the one and only TRUTH. So I felt a moral obligation to support the lameazzed outfit, I guess.
But I never volunteered what I did with my time on weekends or those two weeks in August to anyone outside of the TWI community. And when the real truth about what a disgusting little cult TWI was finally came out, I was even more ashamed to have gone along with such a bunch of farking loons and against my own intuition.
So, yeah, there's shame of allowing oneself to be made of fool of, and then anger at wasting all those years and money on something so goddam stupid.
All in all, a real "win-win" huh?
Yeah...what he said! Except I kept going and going and going and ended up in the Way Corps. It took awhile for me to see how wrong everything was. It took even longer for me to realize what a hypocrite, deceiver, and abuser VP was. I'm thankful for the women that came forth and were honest about their experiences with him.
I think I'm past most of it now, not that I condone anything or have brought myself to the point of not caring anymore. I accept it for what it was in my life. The truth is, at least for me, was that I was looking for something to quell the terror and despair that was already in my heart. It was there long before The Way ever came along. The Way offered, in 12 easy steps, a way out. I was secure in The Way, I now had my family, and my friends and now it was clearly defined for me what made me an o.k. person, and what did not. So I focused on being a good Way guy. I bought the jacket, you know. A red one with a Way logo. I wore it like a badge of honor.
No matter how hard I tried, the terror and despair never went away. I always thought it was my fault. Actually, it was my fault. I erred in thinking that pressing harder and harder into TWI would bring peace. It did not. I figured things weren't going well for me because I wasn't doing "the program" well enough. So I would do more, and more and more until after 15 years everything fell like a house of cards and it seemed that everything I strived for was nothing more than air.
I'm not going to say that I'm thankful for the good I learned in TWI because I can't think of anything that was all that great. I did make and meet some good people that became friends for which I'm thankful. Everything else taught could have been obtained by reading the back of a cereal box quite frankly. Well, maybe not a cereal box.
In reading this thread, I noticed some implying that if TWI had been what was advertised, things would have been glorious and wonderful. I don't see how it was possible that TWI could ever have been anything different than what it was. I believe it was rotten from the moment, the very instant, that VP got the idea to develop an independent ministry. In other words, TWI isn't an organization that simply "got off track". It was never on the track to begin with.
"Had it been different", which is the title of this thread, TWI would not have been TWI.
Great Posts...all of them! The bottom line is that God has written us in the book of life, and because he knows the heart of each person, he knows our motives and intent were to help all people. That was our only agenda; loving Him and having a pureness of heart towards all men will be our legacy. I only reflect on the pureness of our intentions and have moved beyond the uglies. However, we are still operating 'goodness' by revealing TWI [and offshoots] for what they are, and we are still helping anyone who needs that support.
In reading this thread, I noticed some implying that if TWI had been what was advertised, things would have been glorious and wonderful. I don't see how it was possible that TWI could ever have been anything different than what it was. I believe it was rotten from the moment, the very instant, that VP got the idea to develop an independent ministry. In other words, TWI isn't an organization that simply "got off track". It was never on the track to begin with.
"Had it been different", which is the title of this thread, TWI would not have been TWI.
Yeah.....I get what you're saying.
Years ago......on a similar topic, Sunesis made some very profound points on how God's blessings were able to surface from a deceptive wierwille and an abusive ministry. In short, many of the simple truths of the scriptures, the simplicity that was in Christ, was plagairized from true ministries (ie Stiles, Leonard, others) and trumpeted in pfal classes. In walking in love, light and circumspectly (Ephesians).....one could see the power of God.
There seems to be strong evidence that wierwille didn't believe any of it.....and died a hypocrite and con artist. But that doesn't negate those who were hungry and thirsting for the truth. No, not the "all truth" that twi boasts....but enough truth to start growing and walking. Milk and meat and all that. That credit goes to God and His saving grace.
Twi's structure was corrupt. Twi's leadership programs were indoctrinating tools. Twi's leaderhsip are/were elitists and power-grabbers following in the ways of wierwille. But not ALL were groomed in corruption. Not ALL came through twi's fiery furnace with the stench smell of smoke.
All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light.
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Steve Lortz
There's a difference between preaching and teaching. Preaching is calling attention to the subject, teaching is getting into the nuts and bolts of how to understand the subject. In terms of fly fishing, preaching is the lure, teaching is the hook. Wierwille preached a lot of things that were true about Jesus Christ and God, but what he practised and taught were far different and just self-serving.
There were a lot of people at the twig level who were honestly doing their best to love God and help his people. God was able to work with and through those people. But as people advanced through the "Way tree of learning," we were manipulated into turning our hearts to serving the MOG and away from serving the Lord.
The truths that Wierwille preached as a lure were Noble. His practices and teachings were as Base as they could be.
Love,
Steve
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cheranne
I heard a story along these lines today,and I added my thoughts to it.
===========================================================
There was a village and there were good people in the village but they
were surrounded in an island set in darkness,bogs and quadmires
and quicksand.
surrounded by a marsh filled with muck and the smell of rotten
deadness,roots sticking out of Dark Tree Trunks,many dark vines that
were tangled.
Something was not quite right.
A light in the distance called to people.................
Some would
try to leave
as they tried to stay on the land strip of the mire and muck,
vines that would grab your legs ,your wrist ....
.your heart and drag you down
to a bigger bog of an endless pit.
When some people almost came to there death,
others who had gone before
warned them
Some people saw the true light in the distance and recognized it and took the path
and said
No more of it.
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newlife
Powerful posts....both of them. Thanks.......
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Shellon
I felt like that, not only at first, but still.
TWI was the best and worst thing I did with 16 years of my life for all kinds of reasons, but the loss, the waste, the regrets, the deceit is profound, today and always.
As you're aware, Newlife, this last year has been the most challening, painful, frightening year our little family has experienced and those emotions of TWI and what it cost are a daily thought for me. Then I find thankfulness that I am not in TWI while we're experiencing these things.
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newlife
Shellon,
I can relate...."The worst and the Best" years........
I know you have gone through a difficult time in the past year....I've prayed for you and your family.
I watched and heard about things you have gone through....you are indeed a strong woman! :)
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skyrider
newlife.......lots of stuff to unravel, eh?
For me, in 1974.......it WAS different, it WAS real. When I took pfal, it was the simple truths of the life, death, resurrection and ascention and pentecost.....that changed me! I had no interest in joining a group. With laser-like focus, I embraced my heavenly Father's love for me and the deliverance He so freely gave. Life was simple. Life was awesome.
Far from Ohio......I had NO INTEREST in the wierwille spiels. I had zero interest in wierwille anything! I was too involved on reading my Bible and walking with the Lord. I saw some healings and small miracles. My zeal for all things Christian was my world.
On the twig level........it was simple and sweet. Sure, there were the "needy" people and a couple of moochers, but most were just trying to live for God and "find purpose" as members in particular. Heck, that first year.....I don't remember ever listening to a sunday service tape or tape of the month. It didn't matter. Wierwille didn't matter. It was God's calling and delivering His people.......nothing else mattered. Well, almost nothing. :)
After two years WOW.....and some pressuring me to go corps, I signed up. The corps indoctrination was all about wierwille and serving in "his" ministry. I detailed this stuff plenty here at GS.
Had it been different.......had wierwille been "the man whom Christ wanted him to be"......then, I seriously doubt that there'd be this GreaseSpot Cafe website. Without the fraud and deception and narcissism and sexual predation......those whose who wanted to live the twi/christian lifestyle would have, and those who didn't want it, wouldn't. End of story.
What a strange journey it's been.
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Shellon
Thank you, Newlife, I am a strong woman but more than that I have to accept my choices that brought me to today. TWI was one of those choices.
Would I have been able to give Kelly the recent care she's needed had we still been involved? Probably not and the price emotionally would have been such a higher one. Would Samantha's life be accepted and supported and assist given if we were still in TWI? Not a chance; of that I have no doubt.
God does things when God does things and I gotta be in the right place at the right time to do what He needs me to do and how.
It's gotta be that simple for me. I hope I get tomorrow to do it again and I hope I keep making mistakes and learning and I hope I get it right from time to time.
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George Aar
I was always ashamed of my WayWorld association.
I kept on with it because I actually believed the B.S. that they had some special handle on the one and only TRUTH. So I felt a moral obligation to support the lameazzed outfit, I guess.
But I never volunteered what I did with my time on weekends or those two weeks in August to anyone outside of the TWI community. And when the real truth about what a disgusting little cult TWI was finally came out, I was even more ashamed to have gone along with such a bunch of farking loons and against my own intuition.
So, yeah, there's shame of allowing oneself to be made of fool of, and then anger at wasting all those years and money on something so goddam stupid.
All in all, a real "win-win" huh?
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newlife
Thanks Skyrider for reminding me it was "real" to me and in fact for a very long time.....it was real. And I should say, I did see God work personally in my own life in many and various ways.
I'm afraid the reality of what it really was came to light......and for a long, long, time, I ached on the inside for the lost of something that at one time I really loved. Had people really had God First instead of a man or a ministry......I can't even fathom the potential had it been different.
Appreciate the honesty and heart of everyone's post.
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Broken Arrow
Yeah...what he said! Except I kept going and going and going and ended up in the Way Corps. It took awhile for me to see how wrong everything was. It took even longer for me to realize what a hypocrite, deceiver, and abuser VP was. I'm thankful for the women that came forth and were honest about their experiences with him.
I think I'm past most of it now, not that I condone anything or have brought myself to the point of not caring anymore. I accept it for what it was in my life. The truth is, at least for me, was that I was looking for something to quell the terror and despair that was already in my heart. It was there long before The Way ever came along. The Way offered, in 12 easy steps, a way out. I was secure in The Way, I now had my family, and my friends and now it was clearly defined for me what made me an o.k. person, and what did not. So I focused on being a good Way guy. I bought the jacket, you know. A red one with a Way logo. I wore it like a badge of honor.
No matter how hard I tried, the terror and despair never went away. I always thought it was my fault. Actually, it was my fault. I erred in thinking that pressing harder and harder into TWI would bring peace. It did not. I figured things weren't going well for me because I wasn't doing "the program" well enough. So I would do more, and more and more until after 15 years everything fell like a house of cards and it seemed that everything I strived for was nothing more than air.
I'm not going to say that I'm thankful for the good I learned in TWI because I can't think of anything that was all that great. I did make and meet some good people that became friends for which I'm thankful. Everything else taught could have been obtained by reading the back of a cereal box quite frankly. Well, maybe not a cereal box.
In reading this thread, I noticed some implying that if TWI had been what was advertised, things would have been glorious and wonderful. I don't see how it was possible that TWI could ever have been anything different than what it was. I believe it was rotten from the moment, the very instant, that VP got the idea to develop an independent ministry. In other words, TWI isn't an organization that simply "got off track". It was never on the track to begin with.
"Had it been different", which is the title of this thread, TWI would not have been TWI.
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Rejoice
Great Posts...all of them! The bottom line is that God has written us in the book of life, and because he knows the heart of each person, he knows our motives and intent were to help all people. That was our only agenda; loving Him and having a pureness of heart towards all men will be our legacy. I only reflect on the pureness of our intentions and have moved beyond the uglies. However, we are still operating 'goodness' by revealing TWI [and offshoots] for what they are, and we are still helping anyone who needs that support.
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skyrider
Yeah.....I get what you're saying.
Years ago......on a similar topic, Sunesis made some very profound points on how God's blessings were able to surface from a deceptive wierwille and an abusive ministry. In short, many of the simple truths of the scriptures, the simplicity that was in Christ, was plagairized from true ministries (ie Stiles, Leonard, others) and trumpeted in pfal classes. In walking in love, light and circumspectly (Ephesians).....one could see the power of God.
There seems to be strong evidence that wierwille didn't believe any of it.....and died a hypocrite and con artist. But that doesn't negate those who were hungry and thirsting for the truth. No, not the "all truth" that twi boasts....but enough truth to start growing and walking. Milk and meat and all that. That credit goes to God and His saving grace.
Twi's structure was corrupt. Twi's leadership programs were indoctrinating tools. Twi's leaderhsip are/were elitists and power-grabbers following in the ways of wierwille. But not ALL were groomed in corruption. Not ALL came through twi's fiery furnace with the stench smell of smoke.
All the darkness in the world cannot extinguish the light.
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Ham
if it makes any difference.. a lot (or at least a majority) of them had taken a LOT of LSD..
Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing in itself..
but a lot of *us* ended up in cults, of one form or another.
what could have been different.. maybe we could have found the perfect religion..
maybe it was just.. the one we found was less perfect than some possible alternatives. But how would we have known..
maybe its an issue of trust..
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Ham
I dunno.
why cant we just BE the perfect religion..
apparently that is not for this side of existence..
maybe its too boring or something..
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Ham
there has to be a point of imperfection.. else I would not have an exit point here..
so far.. every day has been "perfect"..
:)
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Ham
by the time we got to woodstock.. we were a half a million minus one strong.
ha! Ma had me by the ear.. and where do you think YOU are going, young man..
No, I wouldn't have made one ounce a difference..
born too late I guess..
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Ham
Maybe that's the question.. by the time *we* got to Woodstock.. what were you..
too much scariness..
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