"I don't doubt that we need "leaders" but they lead by example,"
Very true.
There are plenty of situations and circumstance in life and every endeavor where one person will have to tell another person what to do and someone will have to listen and do it.
Many people have difficulty accepting authority from others. Most people dont' when they understand what and why and when and who and are want to accept that or at least agree to it.
"Work" is like that, having a job in a company. If someone comes up to you that isn't your "boss" and tells you to do x amount of work for them, you question it. They're not your boss, you have no agreement to work for them and if you do you won't be able to do your work.
You work for your boss because you'd agreed to and you accept their authority according to the agreement. You work, they manage, you get paid, they get paid, etc.
Good point. But where in the bible do we see the need for organizations? (not organization, but non-profit corporate entities that people are pressured into swearing their allegiance)
I know you are not advocating this, and perhaps this belongs in doctrinal. But the biggest hurdle I face re-involving myself with any type of group is overcoming my disdain for the "organization."
To me, modern Christianity places an inordinate value on the organization - even placing the organization between the Christian and Christ.
You see? This is where we get "stuck". You and I have been so indoctrinated with "show it to me in the Bible" that we fail (not necessarily you in particular) at times to think out of the box.
I know of no place in the Bible where it gives clear instruction on the right-ness or wrong-ness of organizations. Jesus does say to go into all the world and make disciples. It appears to me that we get to work with him on how to most effectively do that in a given situation. That might include a organization.
Leaders, I believe, are needed to run the organization, teach, lead by example and all the other wonderful things other posters have suggested in this thread. But they are not there to tell people how and what to think, or how to run their lives. Obviously there have been many organizations that have failed in that regard, hence the distrust.
I agree with you when you say, "Modern Christianity places an inordinate amount of value on the organization-even placing the organization between the Christian and Christ" If you should decide to associate yourself with another religious organization, and I'm not saying you ever should, you have some advantages you can help others with. For one thing, you know not to believe that leaders are beyond reproach, they are not. You also know that leaders, all leaders, have selfish motives as do all human beings. What I look for in an organization is how people treat the leadership. Are they scared of him, or does he freely mill about with the rest of the "people" acting like a normal person? How much freedom is there to disagree with the leadership? What do the leaders concern themselves with? Are they concerned if I read the "wrong" book, or go to the "wrong" movie"? Will they comment if they think my wife is not "submissive"? Or do they just teach what they teach and the let the adult individuals figure out how to apply it? Finally, and most importantly to me anyway, is whether Jesus is glorified, or whether the talent, wisdom, humor, etc. of the Pastor is glorified.
With what you and I have been through, it isn't hard to sniff out the show-offs. Rest assured, in every organization and within every man are flaws and selfishness.
I apologize to any who might be offended by my using the all inclusive "he" when referring to leadership. I realize that leadership is not the exclusive domain of men however I find it cumbersome when writing to constantly be repeating "he or she".
I apologize to any who might be offended by my using the all inclusive "he" when referring to leadership. I realize that leadership is not the exclusive domain of men however I find it cumbersome when writing to constantly be repeating "he or she".
Oh, I wouldn't be too worried over it. I doubt that (he/she/it/them/those/they) are offended by it. At least that's the opinion of me/myself/I.
seems to me the leadership of twi was afraid of better leadership styles from the beginning. to look into and apply them would result in firing the leaders. so the information is seen as a direct threat to the safety and security of the current leaders.
plenty of the same thing outside of twi and religion...even in non-profits...plenty of self-interested and ineffectual adults in power over other more capable adults...allergic to the possibilities of better leadership skills...so their typical method involves yelling, blaming, scapegoating, intimidating and otherwise driving their employees into the ground...who are not even considered people, but objects in the leader's universe.
in the fields of adult ego-development, about 10% of managers in the US lead from such impulsive and opportunist worldviews...stuck somewhere between the ages of 3 and 12.
yet even though 75% of adults lead from more conventional perspectives, which is the target for western world, most of our problems are too complex for even conventional leadership styles.
the other side of the curve are the post-conventional systems-thinking leaders, which are less than 12%. Christianity of history and today has it's share of such bigger-picture leaders and leadership styles. unfortunately they are among the first to be demonized by the autocratic dictatorial "power-god" style of many cults and corporations like TWI.
the other side of the curve are the post-conventional systems-thinking leaders, which are less than 12%. Christianity of history and today has it's share of such bigger-picture leaders and leadership styles. unfortunately they are among the first to be demonized by the autocratic dictatorial "power-god" style of many cults and corporations like TWI.
It's sad, really, how these corporations get off track. One graduates from college and gets hired by a company. The grad is naive enough to believe that the new company they are working for is actually concerned about the product or service they supposidely produce. When one gets to the bottom of it all, it turns out that the main purpose of just about every organization is keeping the top manager's jobs intact. The product or service is merely incidental in fulfilling the ego needs of the top manager/owner. Want to get ahead? Make the boss look good. Do this in spite if whether it's good for the overall health of the organization or not. Eventually the company crumbles and blames it on foreign competition, or too much government regulation, or organized labor or whatever. The real problem is incompetent leadership. IMO General Motors is a stellar example of all this.
Unfortunately the main casualties are the rank and file. Our friend "Sirguessalot" has it correct for when a visionary and skilled individual arrives on the scene and challenges the status quo, they are often hacked and let go. More than wanting the company to be successful, top managers do not want to admit they're wrong.
With TWI it was moreso because Wierwille claimed that he received his biblical interpretations from God Himself. For him to be wrong even on one point would make him a liar and TWI a sham. Of course, both were the case.
Naturally, Christian churches aren't like that...oh nooooo! (yeah right!)
where is it I'm supposed to find some kind of peace treaty between whatever it is and myself..
I'm with you on your first point, that is, we're fighting against ourselves. What makes us think we're any better, or would be any better? As for myself, I think the only things that kept me from being a bully was that I was too small and slow. Hence, I was bullied. What's the difference between a person who is a bully at heart but lacks the opportunity, and a person who is a bully at heart and is able to live it out? They're both bullies at their core. I'm getting too philosophical here, I know...it's what I do best.
As for your second point, why do you think you're "supposed" to be some kind of peacemaker? That's not your job, that's too much pressure. There ain't no peace treaty to be had with "whatever it is". You just live above it. That's what I hear, anyway, grasshopper.
One of the biggest shockers for me when I was in-residence way corps was the total lack of leadership training. IRWC has been touted as the greatest leadership training in the whole world.
I was a paid manager / leader before going into the way corps. So you can imagine my surprise when management / leadership skills were not taught. Of course they had us read several Dale Carnegie books, but let's get real - I could have read those on my own.
Lacking from the program was:
- scope (understanding the big picture)
- resource management
- time management
- milestones / deadlines
I kept the categories succinct but under each listed much could be expounded.
And the way corps like to sneer at "non-corps", as quoted from a post Oakspear made earlier.
There was much more lacking but I have made the point well enough, hopefully.
OS, God forbid if you didn't aspire to go Corps. A lot of people looked down on me, because I choose the Navy, instead of the Corps. For me, choosing the Navy over the Corps, was the right decision.
Old School - - ya know - - IF they wanted to become a class-A organization they would have taught at least some of the things you suggested. It seems it was easier to lead by throwing your weight around. In the end, IMHO that was the single thing that brought them down. Just magnify "throw your weight around" and extrapolate and you find the source of every single rape...and marriage destruction.
I have no doubt that most of those who went corps desires to serve bigger and better than they could otherwise. I really believe this is true. But I think there were some who saw a way to get through life on the backs of others and those are the ones many of us remember just because of the hurt they caused and the bad taste they left in our mouths.
There were many very good people who went corps. I know....I met many of them.....but if they had been taught just some of the things on your list, they all would have brought the love of God all over the country.
Old School - - ya know - - IF they wanted to become a class-A organization they would have taught at least some of the things you suggested. It seems it was easier to lead by throwing your weight around. In the end, IMHO that was the single thing that brought them down. Just magnify "throw your weight around" and extrapolate and you find the source of every single rape...and marriage destruction.
I have no doubt that most of those who went corps desires to serve bigger and better than they could otherwise. I really believe this is true. But I think there were some who saw a way to get through life on the backs of others and those are the ones many of us remember just because of the hurt they caused and the bad taste they left in our mouths.
There were many very good people who went corps. I know....I met many of them.....but if they had been taught just some of the things on your list, they all would have brought the love of God all over the country.
great post Krys ! some good points
On 10/12/2010 at 11:01 AM, WordWolf said:
A corps grad once was talking to me, (AFTER the local leaders had split off from twi),
and was telling me about the concept of serving others, charitable works and so on,
and expounding on them like this was the first time in his life he'd ever heard of
such a thing, and that I'd never heard of them at all.
I replied (I was in college at the time) that I had already had several years of
experience in a service organization in college, and I'd already put in hundreds
of hours of community service if not thousands- adding that if he needed to get
some pointers on what works, he could ask me and I'd be glad to fill him in.
In other words, the entire time he and the corps were in, the concepts and practice
of SERVING OTHERS was foreign, and I learned MUCH more about it in college as
extracurricular activities than he did in a paid leadership program.
No training in actual leading, no training in serving others. Other than "how to be
subservient to twi", did the program ever really cover anything but busy-work,
occupying the students' time until they left? The more I think of how deficient and
dysfunctional the whole program was, the more impressed I am that anyone came out of
it able to help anyone at all, let alone some people surviving with their compassion
standing.
Yes - great post WordWolf - I agree - corps training was really about serving TWI...and it seemed like there was a cookie-cutter mentality behind the program, in that no matter what your interests were, what skills and natural abilities you may have had - we all got thrown into a retooling / hopper "program" - i.e. Indoctrination ; the "best" trainees that came out of that were just a bunch of wierwille sycophants willing and able to do anything for TWI.
Yes - great post WordWolf - I agree - corps training was really about serving TWI...and it seemed like there was a cookie-cutter mentality behind the program, in that no matter what your interests were, what skills and natural abilities you may have had - we all got thrown into a retooling / hopper "program" - i.e. Indoctrination ; the "best" trainees that came out of that were just a bunch of wierwille sycophants willing and able to do anything for TWI.
T-Bone, how sad. All that talent, intelligence, and youth was wasted. I remember some former WC Grads suggested to me, that I should join the Corps. BS!! I joined the Navy instead.
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socks
"I don't doubt that we need "leaders" but they lead by example,"
Very true.
There are plenty of situations and circumstance in life and every endeavor where one person will have to tell another person what to do and someone will have to listen and do it.
Many people have difficulty accepting authority from others. Most people dont' when they understand what and why and when and who and are want to accept that or at least agree to it.
"Work" is like that, having a job in a company. If someone comes up to you that isn't your "boss" and tells you to do x amount of work for them, you question it. They're not your boss, you have no agreement to work for them and if you do you won't be able to do your work.
You work for your boss because you'd agreed to and you accept their authority according to the agreement. You work, they manage, you get paid, they get paid, etc.
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Ham
sooooo..
where do we go, from here..
:)
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Broken Arrow
You see? This is where we get "stuck". You and I have been so indoctrinated with "show it to me in the Bible" that we fail (not necessarily you in particular) at times to think out of the box.
I know of no place in the Bible where it gives clear instruction on the right-ness or wrong-ness of organizations. Jesus does say to go into all the world and make disciples. It appears to me that we get to work with him on how to most effectively do that in a given situation. That might include a organization.
Leaders, I believe, are needed to run the organization, teach, lead by example and all the other wonderful things other posters have suggested in this thread. But they are not there to tell people how and what to think, or how to run their lives. Obviously there have been many organizations that have failed in that regard, hence the distrust.
I agree with you when you say, "Modern Christianity places an inordinate amount of value on the organization-even placing the organization between the Christian and Christ" If you should decide to associate yourself with another religious organization, and I'm not saying you ever should, you have some advantages you can help others with. For one thing, you know not to believe that leaders are beyond reproach, they are not. You also know that leaders, all leaders, have selfish motives as do all human beings. What I look for in an organization is how people treat the leadership. Are they scared of him, or does he freely mill about with the rest of the "people" acting like a normal person? How much freedom is there to disagree with the leadership? What do the leaders concern themselves with? Are they concerned if I read the "wrong" book, or go to the "wrong" movie"? Will they comment if they think my wife is not "submissive"? Or do they just teach what they teach and the let the adult individuals figure out how to apply it? Finally, and most importantly to me anyway, is whether Jesus is glorified, or whether the talent, wisdom, humor, etc. of the Pastor is glorified.
With what you and I have been through, it isn't hard to sniff out the show-offs. Rest assured, in every organization and within every man are flaws and selfishness.
I apologize to any who might be offended by my using the all inclusive "he" when referring to leadership. I realize that leadership is not the exclusive domain of men however I find it cumbersome when writing to constantly be repeating "he or she".
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excathedra
havent' read please arrest me
leaders um servants lol
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waysider
Oh, I wouldn't be too worried over it. I doubt that (he/she/it/them/those/they) are offended by it. At least that's the opinion of me/myself/I.
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Ham
ha!
they are leader-servants. I'm da leader, serve me..
Isn't that the justification?
"we OWE support to those who labor(?) in da word and doctrine.." I've heard that from one numbnuts in an offshoot..
labor, ha. Their "fruits" are vics leftovers..
labor indeed..
I could re-hash pfal, hang out an offshoot shingle "da worda gawd like it hasn't been even heard of since the earth cooled.."
but I really want to keep my stomach. Intact, that is..
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sirguessalot
fwiw
seems to me the leadership of twi was afraid of better leadership styles from the beginning. to look into and apply them would result in firing the leaders. so the information is seen as a direct threat to the safety and security of the current leaders.
plenty of the same thing outside of twi and religion...even in non-profits...plenty of self-interested and ineffectual adults in power over other more capable adults...allergic to the possibilities of better leadership skills...so their typical method involves yelling, blaming, scapegoating, intimidating and otherwise driving their employees into the ground...who are not even considered people, but objects in the leader's universe.
in the fields of adult ego-development, about 10% of managers in the US lead from such impulsive and opportunist worldviews...stuck somewhere between the ages of 3 and 12.
yet even though 75% of adults lead from more conventional perspectives, which is the target for western world, most of our problems are too complex for even conventional leadership styles.
the other side of the curve are the post-conventional systems-thinking leaders, which are less than 12%. Christianity of history and today has it's share of such bigger-picture leaders and leadership styles. unfortunately they are among the first to be demonized by the autocratic dictatorial "power-god" style of many cults and corporations like TWI.
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excathedra
when i was with corporate usa, they let a beloved manager of ours go
everyone was very very sad
so the head hancho partner met with all of us to address our concerns
he said something to the effect of yes, we let so-and-so go due to philosophical differences
you could hear weeping in the group
and then he said, "if you're not with us, you're against us and there's the door" and then he walked out
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Ham
sorry.. I'd be the smartass in the back.. "and who is *we* that let him go.."
seems corporate america.. and corporate christianity in general.. sucks..
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Ham
just seems a fair question.. who (are, is, who, is whatever) *we*..
sowie.
I'd keep asking.. "and what are the differences.."
maybe some did..
the differences.. are..
what?
ordinary, hard working slobs need some health care..
or what?
that seems to be the big battle nowadays..
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Ham
so who is it we are fighting against..
might I suggest.. ourselves..
I'm supposed to be some kind of peacemaker..
where is it I'm supposed to find some kind of peace treaty between whatever it is and myself..
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Broken Arrow
It's sad, really, how these corporations get off track. One graduates from college and gets hired by a company. The grad is naive enough to believe that the new company they are working for is actually concerned about the product or service they supposidely produce. When one gets to the bottom of it all, it turns out that the main purpose of just about every organization is keeping the top manager's jobs intact. The product or service is merely incidental in fulfilling the ego needs of the top manager/owner. Want to get ahead? Make the boss look good. Do this in spite if whether it's good for the overall health of the organization or not. Eventually the company crumbles and blames it on foreign competition, or too much government regulation, or organized labor or whatever. The real problem is incompetent leadership. IMO General Motors is a stellar example of all this.
Unfortunately the main casualties are the rank and file. Our friend "Sirguessalot" has it correct for when a visionary and skilled individual arrives on the scene and challenges the status quo, they are often hacked and let go. More than wanting the company to be successful, top managers do not want to admit they're wrong.
With TWI it was moreso because Wierwille claimed that he received his biblical interpretations from God Himself. For him to be wrong even on one point would make him a liar and TWI a sham. Of course, both were the case.
Naturally, Christian churches aren't like that...oh nooooo! (yeah right!)
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Broken Arrow
I'm with you on your first point, that is, we're fighting against ourselves. What makes us think we're any better, or would be any better? As for myself, I think the only things that kept me from being a bully was that I was too small and slow. Hence, I was bullied. What's the difference between a person who is a bully at heart but lacks the opportunity, and a person who is a bully at heart and is able to live it out? They're both bullies at their core. I'm getting too philosophical here, I know...it's what I do best.
As for your second point, why do you think you're "supposed" to be some kind of peacemaker? That's not your job, that's too much pressure. There ain't no peace treaty to be had with "whatever it is". You just live above it. That's what I hear, anyway, grasshopper.
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Grace Valerie Claire
OS, God forbid if you didn't aspire to go Corps. A lot of people looked down on me, because I choose the Navy, instead of the Corps. For me, choosing the Navy over the Corps, was the right decision.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Krys,
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Grace Valerie Claire
Pen, I thought JC was our leader?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Silly, girl. VPW and LCM took over because Jesus was too busy in heaven, so Christ made them his personal assistants.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Tom, good point!
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T-Bone
the complete version is below
Edited by T-Bonerepeat - see bleow
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T-Bone
great post Krys ! some good points
Yes - great post WordWolf - I agree - corps training was really about serving TWI...and it seemed like there was a cookie-cutter mentality behind the program, in that no matter what your interests were, what skills and natural abilities you may have had - we all got thrown into a retooling / hopper "program" - i.e. Indoctrination ; the "best" trainees that came out of that were just a bunch of wierwille sycophants willing and able to do anything for TWI.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, how sad. All that talent, intelligence, and youth was wasted. I remember some former WC Grads suggested to me, that I should join the Corps. BS!! I joined the Navy instead.
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