Thanks for the link. I think this is a good report. Interesting how a few things are a little different than when VPW was running TWI. One difference: he said original sin was masturbation, not lesbianism. That was a new Martindale decree.
And all the mark and avoid names weren't in place so clearly as when LCM was in charge. Under VP, anyone who left was tricked by the devil, period, and he'd quote a verse or two that said not to fellowship with them.
Anyhow, thanks for reminding me how hideous a group this is and how ashamed I am that I ever bought into its hideous beliefs like denial of the holocaust. Makes me want to continue speaking my story of "escape" with more determination than ever.
And all the mark and avoid names weren't in place so clearly as when LCM was in charge. Under VP, anyone who left was tricked by the devil, period, and he'd quote a verse or two that said not to fellowship with them.
Wierwille labeled any corps or clergy who disagreed with him as a "cop-out."
For one so spiritual, I never found the biblical reference for this....nor substantiation that disagreeing with wierwille was synonymous with walking out on God...??
That's hilarious. For a group that pretends to live a high level of "God's Word", the amount of superstition they carry surrounding ex-followers who most of the time are that way because the "believers" and "leadership" abused the crap out of them is laughable. It is nothing more than another form of mind control or brainwashing. Introduce fear into people's lives that somehow if they hear the tales of how the leaders of TWI screws people over that they will become possessed or something.
Sure hearing the truth will change people. That's TWI's leadership's greatest fear. That's why they cover over their actions, hide them, lie about them, make sure they are never discussed. But a good friend of mine made the statement "People don't hide behavior that's appropriate. They hide behavior that's inappropriate". I 100% agree with him.
Wierwille labeled any corps or clergy who disagreed with him as a "cop-out."
For one so spiritual, I never found the biblical reference for this....nor substantiation that disagreeing with wierwille was synonymous with walking out on God...??
Here's an example from my memory - When the leaders of the Way West and the Way East respectivley, D*op and H*efner, left TWI in about 1972, VPW told those of us in the Corps they these men had copped out or tripped out or got deceived by devil spirits (these terms all amounted to the same thing). They'd turned their backs on the Way. The logic was the Way taught the Word, so that meant they'd turned their backs on The Word. And what should we do when someone does that? Obey what the Word tells us to do, like in I Timothy 1:20. In that verse, Paul says of two people who opposed him, that he "delivered unto Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme." Additional logic went like this: Since TWI taught God's Word accurately, God had his hand on TWI, so if you left TWI, then you left God's ministry.
Here's an example from my memory - When the leaders of the Way West and the Way East respectivley, D*op and H*efner, left TWI in about 1972, VPW told those of us in the Corps they these men had copped out or tripped out or got deceived by devil spirits (these terms all amounted to the same thing). They'd turned their backs on the Way. The logic was the Way taught the Word, so that meant they'd turned their backs on The Word. And what should we do when someone does that? Obey what the Word tells us to do, like in I Timothy 1:20. In that verse, Paul says of two people who opposed him, that he "delivered unto Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme." Additional logic went like this: Since TWI taught God's Word accurately, God had his hand on TWI, so if you left TWI, then you left God's ministry.
...and was this true Christian behavior on the part of Wierwille? You follow ME or your screwed up?
Talk about an ego trip! ...and when you consider how Martindale conducted himself with the loyalty to me ultimatum...it was never about following God...it was all about them.
...and was this true Christian behavior on the part of Wierwille? You follow ME or your screwed up?
Talk about an ego trip! ...and when you consider how Martindale conducted himself with the loyalty to me ultimatum...it was never about following God...it was all about them.
I was all about them, indeed.
Some people might now ask: Was Paul's behavior "true Christian" behavior? He said people should follow him, too, since he "fathered them in the Word." I'm NOT saying Paul was anything like VPW in any respect but this one. Am I missing something, or did Paul have a "right" to demand that of his followers? What do you say to someone who poses this question. Someone asked me this once and I couldn't deny Paul sounded like he was on an ego trip, too. Just sayin'...
...and was this true Christian behavior on the part of Wierwille? You follow ME or your screwed up?
Exactly. The logic was that VP was the man that taught you the Word. Turn your back on him and you were turning your back on the Word. Turn you back on the Word, and you turn your back on God. A=B, and B=C, therefore C=B, therefore turning your back on V.P was akin to turning your back on God on Himself. AAACK! I used to believe that!
Talk about an ego trip! ...and when you consider how Martindale conducted himself with the loyalty to me ultimatum...it was never about following God...it was all about them.
LCM did what was mirrored to him, except he jacked it up a few notches (or so I'm told).
Some people might now ask: Was Paul's behavior "true Christian" behavior? He said people should follow him, too, since he "fathered them in the Word." I'm NOT saying Paul was anything like VPW in any respect but this one. Am I missing something, or did Paul have a "right" to demand that of his followers? What do you say to someone who poses this question. Someone asked me this once and I couldn't deny Paul sounded like he was on an ego trip, too. Just sayin'...
Yes. The King James version has Paul saying "follow me" or something to that respect. Other versions like the NIV, Revised Standard, Amplified and others have Paul saying to "imitate him" or to use him as an example or pattern. Perhaps a bit egotistical, I dunno. I don't have the guts to stand up in front of a group of people and say, "Hey folks! Wanna live the Christian life? Well then just do what I do!" Still, I think even that is a far cry from saying, "I'm the man of God! Follow me in blind obedience!
In my humble personal study, I see the Pauline epistles mainly pointing to Christ. VP jaded us with the "man of God for his day and time" stuff. He used the very verses you are referring to to corroborate that.
Yes. The King James version has Paul saying "follow me" or something to that respect. Other versions like the NIV, Revised Standard, Amplified and others have Paul saying to "imitate him" or to use him as an example or pattern. Perhaps a bit egotistical, I dunno. I don't have the guts to stand up in front of a group of people and say, "Hey folks! Wanna live the Christian life? Well then just do what I do!" Still, I think even that is a far cry from saying, "I'm the man of God! Follow me in blind obedience!
In my humble personal study, I see the Pauline epistles mainly pointing to Christ. VP jaded us with the "man of God for his day and time" stuff. He used the very verses you are referring to to corroborate that.
If you still think the Word of God is "God-breathed" (and I do), then God inspired Paul to say and write that .... which can't be said of VPW. The Apostle Paul received the greatest revelation ever given to the Church in the Grace Administration ... which also cannot be said of VPW. Paul had God-given credentials that are recorded in the Bible. VPW did not have those credentials.
Yes. The King James version has Paul saying "follow me" or something to that respect. Other versions like the NIV, Revised Standard, Amplified and others have Paul saying to "imitate him" or to use him as an example or pattern. Perhaps a bit egotistical, I dunno. I don't have the guts to stand up in front of a group of people and say, "Hey folks! Wanna live the Christian life? Well then just do what I do!" Still, I think even that is a far cry from saying, "I'm the man of God! Follow me in blind obedience!
In my humble personal study, I see the Pauline epistles mainly pointing to Christ. VP jaded us with the "man of God for his day and time" stuff. He used the very verses you are referring to to corroborate that.
When you take into account the differences in culture between what we experience now and Paul's day and time, Paul saying "follow me" as a pattern is much different than the micromanagement approaches of the little Napoleans in this day and time such as VPW, LCM, and the current yahoos.
Paul basically saw some of these churches twice. Letters were passed between them. He lived with them for a short period of time teaching and setting up leadership and was gone.
So really, if you want to get technical about it, all the micromanagement, extreme loyalty oaths, tests, little mind games, etc. that are played by the modern day cult leader politicians are not following in Paul's image. Instead they usurp his authority and say you should follow them similarly.
So really, if you want to get technical about it, all the micromanagement, extreme loyalty oaths, tests, little mind games, etc. that are played by the modern day cult leader politicians are not following in Paul's image. Instead they usurp his authority and say you should follow them similarly.
Great point! The cult leaders, ala the way international's own brand, are more like the ones Paul warned against in Philippians (and other places). The dogs that bite and devour, seek their own, spy out liberties, have confidence in the flesh, etc.
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waysider
Nicely done.
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cheranne
I did not do this..but thought we should all see it and pass it on.
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penworks
Thanks for the link. I think this is a good report. Interesting how a few things are a little different than when VPW was running TWI. One difference: he said original sin was masturbation, not lesbianism. That was a new Martindale decree.
And all the mark and avoid names weren't in place so clearly as when LCM was in charge. Under VP, anyone who left was tricked by the devil, period, and he'd quote a verse or two that said not to fellowship with them.
Anyhow, thanks for reminding me how hideous a group this is and how ashamed I am that I ever bought into its hideous beliefs like denial of the holocaust. Makes me want to continue speaking my story of "escape" with more determination than ever.
Peace,
Charlene
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skyrider
Wierwille labeled any corps or clergy who disagreed with him as a "cop-out."
For one so spiritual, I never found the biblical reference for this....nor substantiation that disagreeing with wierwille was synonymous with walking out on God...??
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waysider
Somewhat off-topic
In the 1970s, the term being used was "tripped-out".
And everyone "knew" you can't receive revelation when you're tripped-out.
You had to be en-guard around them because they could poison your thoughts with their off-the-word conversations.
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chockfull
That's hilarious. For a group that pretends to live a high level of "God's Word", the amount of superstition they carry surrounding ex-followers who most of the time are that way because the "believers" and "leadership" abused the crap out of them is laughable. It is nothing more than another form of mind control or brainwashing. Introduce fear into people's lives that somehow if they hear the tales of how the leaders of TWI screws people over that they will become possessed or something.
Sure hearing the truth will change people. That's TWI's leadership's greatest fear. That's why they cover over their actions, hide them, lie about them, make sure they are never discussed. But a good friend of mine made the statement "People don't hide behavior that's appropriate. They hide behavior that's inappropriate". I 100% agree with him.
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penworks
Here's an example from my memory - When the leaders of the Way West and the Way East respectivley, D*op and H*efner, left TWI in about 1972, VPW told those of us in the Corps they these men had copped out or tripped out or got deceived by devil spirits (these terms all amounted to the same thing). They'd turned their backs on the Way. The logic was the Way taught the Word, so that meant they'd turned their backs on The Word. And what should we do when someone does that? Obey what the Word tells us to do, like in I Timothy 1:20. In that verse, Paul says of two people who opposed him, that he "delivered unto Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme." Additional logic went like this: Since TWI taught God's Word accurately, God had his hand on TWI, so if you left TWI, then you left God's ministry.
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cheranne
The Way International: The Straight Truth on facebook.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and was this true Christian behavior on the part of Wierwille? You follow ME or your screwed up?
Talk about an ego trip! ...and when you consider how Martindale conducted himself with the loyalty to me ultimatum...it was never about following God...it was all about them.
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penworks
I was all about them, indeed.
Some people might now ask: Was Paul's behavior "true Christian" behavior? He said people should follow him, too, since he "fathered them in the Word." I'm NOT saying Paul was anything like VPW in any respect but this one. Am I missing something, or did Paul have a "right" to demand that of his followers? What do you say to someone who poses this question. Someone asked me this once and I couldn't deny Paul sounded like he was on an ego trip, too. Just sayin'...
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Broken Arrow
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Yes. The King James version has Paul saying "follow me" or something to that respect. Other versions like the NIV, Revised Standard, Amplified and others have Paul saying to "imitate him" or to use him as an example or pattern. Perhaps a bit egotistical, I dunno. I don't have the guts to stand up in front of a group of people and say, "Hey folks! Wanna live the Christian life? Well then just do what I do!" Still, I think even that is a far cry from saying, "I'm the man of God! Follow me in blind obedience!
In my humble personal study, I see the Pauline epistles mainly pointing to Christ. VP jaded us with the "man of God for his day and time" stuff. He used the very verses you are referring to to corroborate that.
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DogLover
If you still think the Word of God is "God-breathed" (and I do), then God inspired Paul to say and write that .... which can't be said of VPW. The Apostle Paul received the greatest revelation ever given to the Church in the Grace Administration ... which also cannot be said of VPW. Paul had God-given credentials that are recorded in the Bible. VPW did not have those credentials.
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chockfull
When you take into account the differences in culture between what we experience now and Paul's day and time, Paul saying "follow me" as a pattern is much different than the micromanagement approaches of the little Napoleans in this day and time such as VPW, LCM, and the current yahoos.
Paul basically saw some of these churches twice. Letters were passed between them. He lived with them for a short period of time teaching and setting up leadership and was gone.
So really, if you want to get technical about it, all the micromanagement, extreme loyalty oaths, tests, little mind games, etc. that are played by the modern day cult leader politicians are not following in Paul's image. Instead they usurp his authority and say you should follow them similarly.
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OldSkool
Great point! The cult leaders, ala the way international's own brand, are more like the ones Paul warned against in Philippians (and other places). The dogs that bite and devour, seek their own, spy out liberties, have confidence in the flesh, etc.
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cheranne
Cults SUCK!
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