Logos?

[Sunesis]

Very interesting thoughts Teachme. I think Christ was inserted when he was because at that point, most of the "known" Gentile world, including Europe, Asia, because of the thoughts of Plato and others that had permeated culture in ways the people proably didn't even realize, they would be able to understand who Christ was in those terms.

As for Jewish thought, many "strangers and aliens" sojourned with Israel from their inception on and I feel many would have known about their beliefs, or others who didn't believe would have know about their "myths" (to an unbeliever it would have been myth).

But, I believe a lot of the ancient gentile beliefs and gods they worshipped were corruptions over time of what Noah knew and taught after the flood.

For example, the Cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life. They were still there up until the flood. Many people saw them. The creature with a head with 4 faces: man, bird, oxen (tame beast), lion (wild beast). Thus, in ancient pre-flood civilizations where the ruins still stand, and later ones after the flood that survive to this day, you see the gods they worshipped:

Human bodies with bird heads (seen in Egypt still to this day)

Human bodies with heads of rams or other animals.

Worship of cows (oxen).

All of these a corruption of the Cherubim what was seen in Eden by people living in the area and walking by.

What was the first thing Israel made when Moses went up to commune with God? The Golden Calf - and they worshipped it.

Why a cow? Corrupted stories/memories of the Cherubim.

Also, when Adam looked at the Cherubim he realized what he lost: Man's dominion over all and over the animal kingdom. What heartbreak it must have been for him.

That's why the prophecy of the coming redeemer/seed must have comforted him: Someday, he would be "Adam" again. He would be the image bearer of God. So would all of humanity. Humanity will be restored. That is part of Israel's Hope.

Now, we are a fallen race, a pale shadow of what once was.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Sunesis

[teachmevp]

I think Christ was inserted when he was because at that point, most of the "known" Gentile world including Europe, Asia, because of the thoughts of Plato and others that had permeated culture in ways the people probably didn't even realize, they would be able to understand who Christ was in those terms.

Alexander the great, what this dude did is something else, from what I understand, this is

the first dude to have a one world view? From what I understand, this Alexander dude set

up in every town a place for the elite to meet? I guess Alexander was unconcerned with the

common man, farmers and such, but by controlling the so called elite with this meeting places,

kinda what the Way did, in a way? If anything was going to get done, it was done through this

Alexander dudes network of his one world view, those meeting places across the Hellenistic

Alexander world, so to speak? I guess these dudes would sit around naked, talking about the

concerns of their time, talking about everything under the sun, while they got a sun tan I guess?

Seems the Way did this, they controlled the twigs; they were unconcerned with the leaf, because

they controlled the twig?

Thanks Sunisis, you always got the good stuff to think about, thanks for the learning.

[teachmevp]

I guess their were these "Doggie Philosophers" living according to nature, if it feels good,

do it; the dogs do it in the street, we can too thing? VeePee's spiritual thing, VeePee became a

Doggie Philosopher with his spirit, I guess he had a motorhome, but these people did it

in the streets? It seems somebody in late antiquity decided that they wanted a series of letters

that talked about the philosophy of this nature living thing. The letters of Plato, their is a big

difficulty trying to figure out, are all the letters that exist in ancient Greek manuscripts that claim

to be letters of the philosopher Plato, are they really by Plato? Tripe how the nature folk attacked

Plato, that is how powerful that network Alexander the great set up, those meeting places?

[teachmevp]

The phenomenon of "Pseudepigraphy" that is, writings under a false name, that

was very, very popular in the ancient world, seems a lot of people were doing it?

[teachmevp]

Could their been like greek Glenn Becks in them days, greek Beck points of view of morality in these meeting places,

but the doggie folks found a way, through these writings under a false name, to get their stuff into the greek Becks?

[teachmevp]

Maybe back in Hellenistic time, these uncommon people might have gotten sick

in their stomach at these people in these meeting places of the Hellenistic thing

of Alexander the greats one world view? Kinda like the Way and their truth? But

the is like every man made thing in the world, the Way can write you off, all the

churches to that, but the Way stopped researching; no research, no grow, become

another teaching of the world? Alexander the greats thing, that took a lot of time

to creep into that network? Could these so called Doggie Philosophers have used

writings under false names, because of the Hellenistic dudes had their nose in the

air all the time, and they controlled everything? It cool how these doggie folk infiltrated

this system of Alexander the great, and his one world view? Maybe by the time the Romans

came along, these doggie dudes infiltrated deep; the Romans would just leave it alone, and

take their money?

[Jbarrax]

Very interesting thoughts Teachme. I think Christ was inserted when he was because at that point, most of the "known" Gentile world, including Europe, Asia, because of the thoughts of Plato and others that had permeated culture in ways the people proably didn't even realize, they would be able to understand who Christ was in those terms.

As for Jewish thought, many "strangers and aliens" sojourned with Israel from their inception on and I feel many would have known about their beliefs, or others who didn't believe would have know about their "myths" (to an unbeliever it would have been myth).

But, I believe a lot of the ancient gentile beliefs and gods they worshipped were corruptions over time of what Noah knew and taught after the flood.

For example, the Cherubim guarding the way to the tree of life. They were still there up until the flood. Many people saw them. The creature with a head with 4 faces: man, bird, oxen (tame beast), lion (wild beast). Thus, in ancient pre-flood civilizations where the ruins still stand, and later ones after the flood that survive to this day, you see the gods they worshipped:

Human bodies with bird heads (seen in Egypt still to this day)

Human bodies with heads of rams or other animals.

Worship of cows (oxen).

All of these a corruption of the Cherubim what was seen in Eden by people living in the area and walking by.

What was the first thing Israel made when Moses went up to commune with God? The Golden Calf - and they worshipped it.

Why a cow? Corrupted stories/memories of the Cherubim.

Also, when Adam looked at the Cherubim he realized what he lost: Man's dominion over all and over the animal kingdom. What heartbreak it must have been for him.

That's why the prophecy of the coming redeemer/seed must have comforted him: Someday, he would be "Adam" again. He would be the image bearer of God. So would all of humanity. Humanity will be restored. That is part of Israel's Hope.

Now, we are a fallen race, a pale shadow of what once was.

That's quite a mind blowing thought there! It's a shame you can only vote a post "up" once. I would give each of your last two posts three clicks if I could. Great thoughts! Thanks for sharing. :-)

[teachmevp]

Jbarrax you asked me a question early on this thread, I tried to answer, but not

only gave an answer, but left room for me to grow. How can I grow Jbarrax, if I

started this thread out in the world on other forums, I would expect to be attacked,

because I'm attacking them? This is the GreaseSpot Cafe, not those world forums,

so it from that stand point I can start this thread, and not attack anyone, because

I know the Cafe roots, and have been through the Cafe roots. What is so cool about

Sunesis, Sunesis will bounce the ball to me, and I will bounce the ball back, and we

bounce the ball around; but if Sunesis stops bouncing the ball, I know Sunesis still has

that ball, and that ball could come a bouncing my way. It seems the ball I bounced your

way Jbarrax, I get to watch that ball bounce off the court, bummer, maybe I could have

learned something from you? Getting rid of logos should not be a big deal, cults use

logos, the GreaseSpot Cafe is where one goes to get away from cults, and their controlling

ways, and controlling teachings. Their is more written about "Wisdom" in the old testament,

then their is about logos? I have been learning that I was part of a cult, but why would I want

to be part of another cult, like what this meaning of logos teaches?

[teachmevp]

Sunesis, Alexander the great set up one cool network across the known world

in them days. Did people attack Plato before the Alexander thing, or after?

Were these people into this nature of the world thing, before the old testament came

along into the Greek history, were they working their views into Plato, before or after Alexander?

Was their a left and right point of view back in Alexanders, and before his time in Greek history?

[teachmevp]

Is it because of Alexander the great, the tanakh was in the reach of the greeks;

could Alexander have had his eyes on that tanakh? Set up a network, one must

speak greek inorder to get anywhere; hey, I speak greek, translate that tanakh into

greek so we greek speaking people can read it? Everyone is speaking greek in them

days, could Alexander have had a left point of view of Plato, or was their a left point of

view towards Platos reasonings? Could Alexander have killed to birds with one stone, set

up this network, then over time this left point of view of Alexanders one world would take

hold, by working the tanakh and Plato over with their point of Alexanders one world view?

[teachmevp]

I guess their is an arguent, it goes that in every society, there is a natural progression:

a progression from Polytheism, unto Monolatry, which is really the worship of one god

as supreme over other gods, so not denying the existence of the other gods, ascribing

reality to them, but isolating one as a supreme god, and on to Monotheism, where essentially

one believes only in the reality of one god. Could their have been a left point of view about

Alexander, did't he make himself a god?

[Sunesis]

Thank you Jerry :) I appreciate your kind thoughts.

Teachme, you certainly have many thoughts :)

I think, if memory serves right, that the OT was translated into Greek because the Jews had been scattered. The Greek translation of the OT was called the Septuagent(sic), and was read and carried by many jews who did not speak Hebrew and lived nowhere near Jerusalem and spoke Greek. It was a blessing to them. In many ways, just like english is pretty much the "world" language, so greek was spoken in many places at that time.

If I remember my old college prof., there has always been the theory that Moses and Plato had some contact with each other, if not personally, than at least their ideas did. I don't think they knew each other, but ideas do spread.

As far as Alexander the Great - he wept because there were no more worlds for him to conquer. That's all I know about him.

I find it interesting that all societies and cultures, especially Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Sumerian, Egyptian, etc., had their "myths" of Gods come down from the heavens, who fought among themselves, and in many cultures would show the way to heaven (think, main pyramid in Egypt - follow Orion's star).

So, the amazing thing about Christ was, that for the first time in human history, in a certain time, space and place, a "god" (so to speak - I'm not getting into trinity or not here) actually invaded human history - actually came to earth from the heavens to take all who would believe - home. To redeem and restore them so they could dwell in a new place in a new body suitable for that new place (new heaven and new earth).

In other words: The Myth Became Real!

All peoples of the earth could now somehow relate and understand - no matter where they were from.

Thus, Paul could tell the Greek philosophers at Mars Hill: I will speak to you of the "Unknown God." Him I will declare unto you.

The framework over many centuries had been prepared.

Edited October 1, 2010 by Sunesis

[Twinky]

Sunesis - I do enjoy your posts. Always something to think about.

[teachmevp]

The Myth Became Real

Did Plato overcome the Myth with his reasonings. it seems we are

looking back at Plato, with what we know now? It seems Plato out

reasoned the Myth, maybe the myth dudes got mad at Plato's

reasonings, could that be like the beginning of these false name writers?

These Doggie Philosophers, did Plato somehow show that these Doggie people

were immoral?

Then came along Alexander the great, that opened a door, that tanakh was translated

into greek. Maybe the translators of the tanakh into greek knew about a Messiah; but

they worked into that translation a gnostic point of view, the spirit in the form of

a man thing?

[teachmevp]

Then one day the Messiah comes along, but this Messiah does not really line

up with what the greek dudes put into their translation, this spirit in a form of

a man, their myth became real, or did the phenomenon of "Pseudepigraphy" that

is, writings under a false name, in order to make their myth real? Which is what

seems to be taught today, a myth that became real? I will put my trust in the second

Adam, no myth with the second Adam?

[Sunesis]

Teachme, I do not know about all of these things you're thinking about, but, I think God did work with other gentile peoples "not of this fold" to prepare them for the coming Messiah. So when they heard, they may have thought - oh, that's what I was looking for! but didn't know it at the time. They knew their myths, stories, Gods, philosophies. They didn't know what they were looking for, but they "knew" it when they saw it. Or heard it. Something clicked.

If you want an interesting read along this line, read "Augustine's Confessions." The "confessions" was his diary. Here was a 2nd century pagan, who was very involved in one of the greek "cults" with its own myth, rules, regulations, etc. Its interesting to read when the Holy Spirit started tugging on his heartstrings and he began to question and doubt his group, and how with his contact with some Christians and the Bishop Ambrose of Africa, Christ started making sense to him. The redeeming savior was not outside of his realm of possiblity and thought. His culture/beliefs/philosophy had prepared him for it. His conversion is an amazing story. He didn't know what it was, but kind of knew it when he heard it.

Its like the Supreme Court Judge, when they were trying an obscenity/pornography case in the '70s - was it free speech or not? Someone asked the Justice - how do you know if its obscene, how do you describe it? He said I don't - but I know it when I see it.

[teachmevp]

prepare them for the coming Messiah

It seems Satan likes these doggie philosophers of the nature things of this world,

we have that going on today, if it feels good, do it; nations getting ready for this

one world point of view coming up? It seems to me, that these doggie folks made

their move on that translation of the tanakh, into greek, in order to prepare the next

generation of doggie philosophers, for the coming Messiah at that time? The Messiah

comes, but the doggie have it set up, "their is the spirit in the form of a man; their myth

became real? In 1 John, John tells of people not believing that Yeshua was not completely

in the flesh? It seems these doggies tried to make their myth real, by false writers, when

the Messiah came, their in this text, and in that text, their is the spirit in the form of a man?

[teachmevp]

but I know it when I see it

It seems that when the Messiah did come, their was a point of

view planted in the Septuagint? Yeshua walking around, did the

Gentiles really know what the second Adam was about, but they

knew what they saw, because of the Septuagint? All this was done

before the Messiah came, 1 John shows some of these points of

views?

[teachmevp]

What was so new and revolutionary about monotheism taking hold in the land of

Canaan? Seems the Woodrow Wilson thinking people back in them days, figured out

how to start that phenomenon of Pseudepigraphy? Now Satan has to deal with what

is taking hold in the land of Canaan, discredit what is going to be born in the land of

Canaan; a man, or something in a form of a man?

[teachmevp]

Why didn't logos help out on the earth, while it was in the first heaven, when Lucifer made his

move on Yahweh, their in that garden? Did Yahweh have to what for the greeks to write about

logos, before logos could help out? Let's reason logos out, while the earth is in the first heaven?

[teachmevp]

It is a fact, that Yahweh hid only one thing from everybody, the body, of which Yeshua

is it's head? Where then is it recorded about logos, was it hid before the foundations of

the earth, why then did logos not help out Yahweh, when Lucifer made his move in that

garden, when the earth was in the first heaven? Too easy, Plato didn't know to much about

this earth, when it was in the first heaven, logos has not a leg to stand on?

[teachmevp]

The pushers of logos had a lot of nerve, putting logos in John 15:20? The beginning of

verse 20, Remember the WORD that I spoke to you, That there is no servant, who is

greater than his master. Those logos pushers, what do they think they are trying to

accomplish using logos in this verse, that WORD should be words, or saying, or discourse,

but not logos? What this man heard from his Father, Yeshua shared; you what the WORD of

Yahweh, the Mosaic Law is still going on here in John 15:20? Their is a lot of this breaking

the context of John going on with this logos, just put the storyline of John back into context,

those pushers of logos don't stand a chance? Don't be in the logos Cult?

[teachmevp]

How about the "Kavod", I don't think logos was in this Kavod? How special the Israelites

were, how scarred some of the nations in that region were, seeing that Kavod? I'm sure

that Kavod gave the greeks a fright, they jumped on their boats so fast, they didn't get

a chance to be recorded in this storyline of the old testament? I would like to see these

Doggie Philosophers who started this logos, stand in front of this Kavod with their Doggie

ways, they will never enter into Yahweh's rest? Because of this logos, their are gay people

running the Way, their Doggie ways, running the Way? The Doggies of the Way will never

enter Yahweh's rest, the Day of Yahweh approaches, I wonder if this Kavod will be in Israel,

when the ark comes into Israel, in the Day of Yahweh?

[teachmevp]

Could the Greeks have been the fathers of the "Doctrine of Inevitability of Gradualism", with

Alexander the greats one world view and all? The letters of Plato, it is a fact that their is a

big difficulty trying to figure out, are all the letters that exist in ancient greek manuscripts

that claim to be letters of the philosopher Plato, are they really by Plato? These same folk

with this one world view, maybe they were involved in this Septuagint manuscript?

[teachmevp]

I kinda find it funny, why are their not any Greek god or gods mention in

the old testament, like the Canaan god and their other gods? Did Yahweh

put ceder in the temple Solomon built, to mock the Greek god, or the Canaan

god? I wonder if Plato wrote about the Ceders of Lebanon, or even wrote about

what was going on in Canaan; how was Melchisedec involved with your logos,

did Plato write about him too?