Discussing forgiveness is kind of like discussing air. It can make a lot of sense on paper, air quality, hot air, big bag of air, need some air, etc. etc. but air is air, take it or leave it.
Throughout our lives the basic essence of forgiveness is constant Without it we'd drive ourselves nuts, let alone everyone else around us. Resistance to it at a ground zero level will account for a lot of the agida of life.
Expecting it can be disappointing, if not outright dangerous. Forgiveness rings like a loud bell from the bible to those who read about it but it obviously sounds different to different people. Some embrace the second chance, others the 20th chance (and holding). Others still, see it as out of their purview. And many others many other ways. To err is human, to forgive is "divine". Who wants to play god when they can't even decide what it means to be human?
Questions abound....
It's difficult to grasp a forgiveness without qualification. Why forgive if no one asks for it? Why forgive if it's not deserved? Why forgive if the forgiven turn right around and do it again? (insert Steely Dan score here...) Why bother?
I do go back to my master sensei Jesus in difficult matters. Easy ones to for that matter. Jesus drove a hard bargain when dealing with matters of morality and ethics. He likened thinking a thing to doing it, when it was in the "heart" of the person. Yet He recognized that what goes into a person isn't what creates sin, it's what comes out of the person.
Man often forgives with the expectation that once forgiven, it will get better. "It" won't happen again or as bad or as often. And we're just as often disappointed by that expectation.
Forgiving is a provocative topic to be sure but I do accept at this point in life that without the true essence of it in constant play, life grinds. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the real "sand in the machinery of life" is the absence of it - whatever fills that spot won't do the same job.
Such is life. "That's the way it goes". C'est la vie.
It's up to those involved to determine if, what, how, when, where anything resembling "forgiveness" occurs. Given the options - you decide. No logical argument or set of rules can or will govern each person's determination. To force it is counter productive. If it ain't there, it ain't there.
It's good to discuss it and attempt to refine our understanding of it, but IMO at the end of the day forgiveness is best lived, less so discussed. Kind of like explaining a joke and getting an Oh I get it now, "that's funny" reaction.
When something's funny - we laugh. When something's forgiven - you'll know it. LIkewise when something isn't.
As chockfull states, it's not my business to forgive sin, that's out of my purview and jurisdiction.
Jesus's description of forgiving others that our Father in Heaven would forgive us bears out that thought line. It doesn't map out that my forgiveness of another settles the matter on God's behalf. God through Christ do that.
(Much theological spew has been devoted to how that forgiveness works out but I see that the individual's response to God's redemptive "plan" is required. All are forgiven, all don't accept it - through faith in Christ.)
What the "mechanics" are of that redemption is important - why and how would a single act by an individual (Jesus) guarantee forgiveness from God - if I have "faith" in that person (Jesus)?
This is seldom discussed here with this topic, I guess it's perceived as more of a "doctrinal" area, but it's extremely important to have an understanding of otherwise the concept of what God's done, and how will be difficult to accept.
Jesus forgave "unconditionally" - "Father forgive them for they don't know what they're doing" - those who were killing him knew exactly what they were doing, no? Yet, Jesus speaks on their behalf to God - if they really knew who He was (ie - they "believed"), they wouldn't do what they were doing. In fact - it was their very disbelief that kept them from .... believing.
We will never be able to forgive completely and unconditionally, "perfectly". We will always have vestiges of hurt, memories that linger, scars that show. We may hide them or celebrate them but they're there.
The only way to escape them is through focus on "new life" in Christ - accepting and embracing the perfect forgiveness executed by God, through Christ, in forgiving those who didn't deserve it, didn't want it and didn't care, or did care and want it, and everything in between. That's the only place that it exists.
Insisting that we all become forgiving love bunnies and start knocking back beers together is ridiculous. Man doesn't work that way. We do our best and that can be pretty good but we're not going to approach a clean slate mentality without having some example to go to - and we will have to go to it again and again throughout life to maintain it.
True complete forgiveness is God's business. To the end that we can be a part of that I think it will do us well to at least try and immerse ourselves in identification with Christ. Those who don't, won't. I'm not here to condemn anyone for what they do, can't or won't do. But there is a cleansing of the heart and mind that happens for me when I submerge myself for even a minute in what I might call "the mind of God" and consider that perspective.
I find myself intrigued and touched when I hear of people who have forgiven others for the unimagineable. The other day I was watching a show where a man caused an accident that killed three children, leaving the parents childless. In court the parents gave the man a hug and told him they knew it was an accident. They were able to do this even with the insurmountable pain they were in. (They have since had more children-triplets)
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excathedra
why did you start another thread ? of course forgiveness is possible
Ham
Just a bit of trivia..
did you know the guy who produced Chicago..
in earlier days produced "Shoes for Industry"
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waysider
Maybe he just got a bad bowl of chili.
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Ham
Not bad. It must have been "Venison Chile.."
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Ham
Kesey spiked it with the absolute finest that Sandoz laboratories had to offer at the time..
he described Owsley's interpretation as something like second rate..
or the best that one could come up with at the time..
the Government always has the best drugs..
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Ham
I could derail my own thread further..
hey.. if if goes onto some crazy colored bus.. I'd go in a moment..
there are those who can't forgive me.. for doing something I never did..
Interesting or not?
It's just the way it is..
I'm sorry I couldn't be gawd almighty.. I tried.. believe me..
Yeah.. I wish I could fix everything..
:)
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socks
Is forgiveness even POSSIBLE?
Of course "it" is.
Discussing forgiveness is kind of like discussing air. It can make a lot of sense on paper, air quality, hot air, big bag of air, need some air, etc. etc. but air is air, take it or leave it.
Throughout our lives the basic essence of forgiveness is constant Without it we'd drive ourselves nuts, let alone everyone else around us. Resistance to it at a ground zero level will account for a lot of the agida of life.
Expecting it can be disappointing, if not outright dangerous. Forgiveness rings like a loud bell from the bible to those who read about it but it obviously sounds different to different people. Some embrace the second chance, others the 20th chance (and holding). Others still, see it as out of their purview. And many others many other ways. To err is human, to forgive is "divine". Who wants to play god when they can't even decide what it means to be human?
Questions abound....
It's difficult to grasp a forgiveness without qualification. Why forgive if no one asks for it? Why forgive if it's not deserved? Why forgive if the forgiven turn right around and do it again? (insert Steely Dan score here...) Why bother?
I do go back to my master sensei Jesus in difficult matters. Easy ones to for that matter. Jesus drove a hard bargain when dealing with matters of morality and ethics. He likened thinking a thing to doing it, when it was in the "heart" of the person. Yet He recognized that what goes into a person isn't what creates sin, it's what comes out of the person.
Man often forgives with the expectation that once forgiven, it will get better. "It" won't happen again or as bad or as often. And we're just as often disappointed by that expectation.
Forgiving is a provocative topic to be sure but I do accept at this point in life that without the true essence of it in constant play, life grinds. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the real "sand in the machinery of life" is the absence of it - whatever fills that spot won't do the same job.
Such is life. "That's the way it goes". C'est la vie.
It's up to those involved to determine if, what, how, when, where anything resembling "forgiveness" occurs. Given the options - you decide. No logical argument or set of rules can or will govern each person's determination. To force it is counter productive. If it ain't there, it ain't there.
It's good to discuss it and attempt to refine our understanding of it, but IMO at the end of the day forgiveness is best lived, less so discussed. Kind of like explaining a joke and getting an Oh I get it now, "that's funny" reaction.
When something's funny - we laugh. When something's forgiven - you'll know it. LIkewise when something isn't.
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Ham
maybe that's the problem I have with this..
do you (excuse the wayism) mean what you say?
It's really asking quite a bit..
are you really that big..
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Ham
say yes, and you own it..
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Ham
hmm.. like before.. I've been asking too much..
You'll have to ask yourself someday..
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socks
Dunno. Several points come to mind on that:
As chockfull states, it's not my business to forgive sin, that's out of my purview and jurisdiction.
Jesus's description of forgiving others that our Father in Heaven would forgive us bears out that thought line. It doesn't map out that my forgiveness of another settles the matter on God's behalf. God through Christ do that.
(Much theological spew has been devoted to how that forgiveness works out but I see that the individual's response to God's redemptive "plan" is required. All are forgiven, all don't accept it - through faith in Christ.)
What the "mechanics" are of that redemption is important - why and how would a single act by an individual (Jesus) guarantee forgiveness from God - if I have "faith" in that person (Jesus)?
This is seldom discussed here with this topic, I guess it's perceived as more of a "doctrinal" area, but it's extremely important to have an understanding of otherwise the concept of what God's done, and how will be difficult to accept.
Jesus forgave "unconditionally" - "Father forgive them for they don't know what they're doing" - those who were killing him knew exactly what they were doing, no? Yet, Jesus speaks on their behalf to God - if they really knew who He was (ie - they "believed"), they wouldn't do what they were doing. In fact - it was their very disbelief that kept them from .... believing.
We will never be able to forgive completely and unconditionally, "perfectly". We will always have vestiges of hurt, memories that linger, scars that show. We may hide them or celebrate them but they're there.
The only way to escape them is through focus on "new life" in Christ - accepting and embracing the perfect forgiveness executed by God, through Christ, in forgiving those who didn't deserve it, didn't want it and didn't care, or did care and want it, and everything in between. That's the only place that it exists.
Insisting that we all become forgiving love bunnies and start knocking back beers together is ridiculous. Man doesn't work that way. We do our best and that can be pretty good but we're not going to approach a clean slate mentality without having some example to go to - and we will have to go to it again and again throughout life to maintain it.
True complete forgiveness is God's business. To the end that we can be a part of that I think it will do us well to at least try and immerse ourselves in identification with Christ. Those who don't, won't. I'm not here to condemn anyone for what they do, can't or won't do. But there is a cleansing of the heart and mind that happens for me when I submerge myself for even a minute in what I might call "the mind of God" and consider that perspective.
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excathedra
my biggest reason for believing in its possibility is because i am forgiven
but of course if you hurt or kill my son, i'll probably have to post something else
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Ham
ha!
and I'd agree. "sorry, you placid, fowl undescript sonofabitch.. I'd have to kick your a**"..
at this point, as far a HUMANS are concerned.. it seems an impossible venture.. forgiveness, that is..
why offer it?
just a thought.
why offer what you cannot produce..
is it a carry over of "da bible (blue book) tells me so"?
No, I'm not mocking.. I'm really trying to figure this out..
though that's not guaranteed either..
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Ham
the whole problem here..
that
forget the almighty in all of this. If one were almighty.. it would never be too big of a stone for Deity to move..
are you REALLY that big?
fair question I think..
all I can say.. if you CHOOSE to be that big.. BE that big..
yeah.. we've all been an offence, to someone, somewhere..
There are 200,000 loose ends.. I'll never be able to really wrap up in this existence.. not that I haven't tried.
I really think.. forgiveness. is some serious s*it..
don't give it so freely.. if you give it, you owe it..
it really isn't some kind of trump card.. or wild card, one can snatch back when conditions are convenient..
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waysider
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bowtwi
I love that song!
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socks
"is it a carry over of "da bible (blue book) tells me so"?"
What's that supposed to mean?
I consider the Bible a worthy guide. Carry over? What's that mean?
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cman
seeing forgiveness as a passing or death of certain things
might help
the power to forgive or be forgiven is in us
bringing that flicker to a flame needs a little help
from inside, from above in the heavens of the mind
"And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us"
seen as it happens, that fire will consume what it touches
or perhaps even close enough to the heat
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Goey
Of course forgiveness is possible. Why would be be encouraged to forgive in the Bible
if it were not possible ?
As I read my Bible, Christian forgiveness is generally conditional upon repentance.
Matthew 18:
15 If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault,
just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.
16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along,
so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church;
and if he refuses to listen even to the church,
treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
In The WAY this was pretty much irrelevant because the "church" and its so-called leaders were many times
the perpetrators and the source of the sins. This made "forgiveness" a joke.
When did a Way Leader ever ask for forgiveness ? When did a Way Leader ever admit sin and show contrition ?
I never saw it.
Are you still seething, angry or bitter about stuff that happened in The Way years & years ago ? Gotta ask yourself why ?
I'm not so sure that forgiveness (in the biblical sense) applies now to those things that happened years ago in a bogus
"church" led by exploiters, power seekers and perverts.
Some of these people are not worthy of forgiveness. Yet even so, we should not allow them or the memory of their "sins"
(regardless of how harmful or atrocious) continue to affect us today in a negative way or even rule our lives.
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excathedra
i am truly happy to see you goey
and thank you for your post
love,ex
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100% Free
I find myself intrigued and touched when I hear of people who have forgiven others for the unimagineable. The other day I was watching a show where a man caused an accident that killed three children, leaving the parents childless. In court the parents gave the man a hug and told him they knew it was an accident. They were able to do this even with the insurmountable pain they were in. (They have since had more children-triplets)
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cman
Whatever that means....
Some have their own ideas about it.
Torture used to be one of them.
Lots of other junk as well.
Not saying you think that Goey.
I don't think we can initiate such a progression.
Need a little divine intervention.
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Ham
:)
that is the whole point, isn't it..
as far as myself is concerned..
I've weighed the cost..
the stupid sonsofabitches.. could have had somebody with a few smarts on staff..
their loss, not mine.
Now the problem is.. to figure out where I belong..
*it* could have been a world class whatever it could have been..
who am I supposed to be..
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Ham
too damned tough..
where to (or do I not) belong..
scary question..
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cman
I know it's tough.
We thought we were a part of something bigger and doing good.
And now it feels like we are nothing, and not making a difference.
But we are part of something, bigger and keeps getting bigger.
Sometimes I see it and sometimes it's hard to see.
If I stay quiet and quit trying to figure stuff out.
It comes to me, or I come to my self, or whatever the me is that's driving me.
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