You have to wonder what the word "forgive" meant in Biblical times. Did it mean the same thing as it does today? It just seems to me that people today tend to use it interchangeably with "excuse". Is forgiving someone the same thing as excusing them? I wouldn't think it would be.
just posted this on the other forgiveness thread....
...
doesnt surprise me that few can recall an occasion where twi's highest leadership asked for forgiveness.
it was another one of those vital aspects of historical Christian doctrine and practice that was taken to the dump.
forgiveness was mostly reduced to a supernatural power, and mostly in the context of us being personally forgiven by our image of a distant God.
after that, forgiveness mostly flowed uphill towards leaders and husbands.
...
fwiw...in the fields of hospice, the pain of unforgiveness is like the common cold of end of life issues...a form of grief.
although, for some, the final pain is more about meaning, belonging or hope.
but like all such things, the fire only gets hotter as "the day of the lord" nears.
oftentimes, it becomes the last thing in the way of a peace-filled dying experience.
like a flaming sword blocking the way back to eden...or a lake of fire between us and paradise.
but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear.
mostly.
...
imho, if we can ever re-connect scripture with the end-of-life contexts they were most likely generated in, we may also reconnect with the arts and practices that "spiritual midwives" have developed over the millenia for all such conditions.
like how Jesus said 70x7, or life review exercises, shadow work, music and art therapy, etc...
...
and if we also could find ways to help people stop doing things that are nearly impossible for others to forgive...it would be like preventative medicine.
otherwise, we create emergency situations where forgiveness is much more difficult...even passed on for generations.
Let's not forget? It seems all these people who say I got the word, but it is only
going to cost this much money, let's not forget the master VeePee and his clan,
they knew how to work it? Let's not forget all the hurt?
Well, that brings up another good point. If you forgive someone for a transgression, does that mean you are supposed to forget it, as well? Wouldn't that be like leaving yourself open to the same type of wrong-doing in the future? "Live and learn." Know what I mean? You wouldn't be a very good student of life if you kept forgetting which pitfalls to avoid.
just posted this on the other forgiveness thread....
...
doesnt surprise me that few can recall an occasion where twi's highest leadership asked for forgiveness.
it was another one of those vital aspects of historical Christian doctrine and practice that was taken to the dump.
forgiveness was mostly reduced to a supernatural power, and mostly in the context of us being personally forgiven by our image of a distant God.
after that, forgiveness mostly flowed uphill towards leaders and husbands.
...
fwiw...in the fields of hospice, the pain of unforgiveness is like the common cold of end of life issues...a form of grief.
although, for some, the final pain is more about meaning, belonging or hope.
but like all such things, the fire only gets hotter as "the day of the lord" nears.
oftentimes, it becomes the last thing in the way of a peace-filled dying experience.
like a flaming sword blocking the way back to eden...or a lake of fire between us and paradise.
but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear.
mostly.
...
imho, if we can ever re-connect scripture with the end-of-life contexts they were most likely generated in, we may also reconnect with the arts and practices that "spiritual midwives" have developed over the millenia for all such conditions.
like how Jesus said 70x7, or life review exercises, shadow work, music and art therapy, etc...
...
and if we also could find ways to help people stop doing things that are nearly impossible for others to forgive...it would be like preventative medicine.
otherwise, we create emergency situations where forgiveness is much more difficult...even passed on for generations.
a lot of good thoughts.
though.. even at the end of a life.. forgiveness from another is not a thing that I personally could mandate.
Yeah, it will all burn in the end.. but still..
perhaps it is a common cold. But try some of Granny's miracle cure, an odd mixture of sulfur, molasses and herbs, and within six weeks or so you will feel like a spring chicken..
let's see who remembers that reference..
but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear.
mostly.
I think I like that statement the best.
some individuals, the only thing one can do is to grieve with them..
------ try some of Granny's miracle cure, an odd mixture of sulfur, molasses and herbs, and within six weeks or so you will feel like a spring chicken..
and the character assassination of someone who didn't agree with da way's interpretation of adultery..
forced abortions.. drugging, and or seduction of women.. etc. etc.
I can't forgive them in behalf of this..
Maybe the best resolution I can have in this situation is "I never did or would never do this s*it.. they are NOT, nor ever have been my brethren.."
Ham, I agree. No way. The evil has to stop. They do not need to whitewash the image of the adulterer and build a new generation of fools to worship it. Those halls need to come crumbling down around their ears.
------ try some of Granny's miracle cure, an odd mixture of sulfur, molasses and herbs, and within six weeks or so you will feel like a spring chicken..
let's see who remembers that reference..
===========================================
That has to be from Beverly Hillbillies.
heh.. yep.
reminds me a lot of cramming down one's throat "forgive or be a defiler of the words of Jesus"..
nasty tasting medicine..
in the end though, one HAS to let go. One way or another..
bringing the end of life/hospice aspect into this discussion makes it a totally different discussion i think, because it's a totally different phase of life and even jesus lived one way and died another way, in that during his living years he spoke harshly and quite unforgivingly to the evil doers, but during his dying time he spoke those words of "father forgive them for they know not what they do". what made the difference? well, he was dying. his work here on earth was done. there was nothing left for him to do but ask his father to forgive them. and look at that, too, that he asked his father to forgive them and that he didn't say "i forgive you". so with jesus being the accepted example in this discussion then in our living years we must do what we can to stand against and point out and save ourselves and others from evil, but in our dying time we give ourselves and our work over to our father. jesus also said to "turn the other cheek" if someone smacks you on one cheek. but did he say to keep turning the other cheek? if you look at that "70x7" quote, you could interpret it that way. again, jesus being the example you would have to look at what he said and did in certain situations, and he didn't say and do the same thing in every similar situation, either.
but i think the real question here is not about forgiveness, but about being and staying a victim, and the question might be phrased "if i forgive somebody, does that mean that i stand there getting my cheeks whacked 70x7 times??????" to me that's a big DUH! NO! but what do i do, then? smack the person back? depends, really, and that's something that each person has to determine for themselves, and even jesus didn't do it the same way every time. there was at least one record of jesus getting good and pi$$ed off and throwing things around in a scene that would have had him arrested in today's "temples", so what was he really trying to say? sometimes we have to think for ourselves. oh GASP!!! there's just not a "cookie cutter" answer here, and not in any culture is there such a pat answer. it's hard to know what to do.
but forgiveness isn't our job i don't think, because how can it be? all we can offer the person in the form of "forgiveness" is to let them get away with what they pulled or are still pulling. well that's just plain old stupid. but do we have to exact a "fitting punishment" at every turn? not hardly. i think we have to look at many other things to grasp things in this "forgiveness" thinking because all it really means to a mere mortal is to let go of things that burden us for our own good. but forgiveness is for the good of the person who is being forgiven. see? us mere mortals simply can't do that while we remain merely mortal, but as we get closer and closer to immortality, well then we get a glimpse of what it all means and then we get the chance to try on our wings, so to speak, and soar with the eagles above all this mortal ooze of life and then we can fathom forgiveness and all it really entails. but in our living years? i don't think it can be done in reality.
brainfixed, I agree with you. It's not my job any more to forgive these clowns. I've turned over that responsibility to the Boss. And removed my life from their presence.
Ham, I agree. No way. The evil has to stop. They do not need to whitewash the image of the adulterer and build a new generation of fools to worship it. Those halls need to come crumbling down around their ears.
The evil has to stop? You mean that the evil doctrine that is propounded by The Way has to stop? But those people in The Way have freedom of will, and the right to believe what they want to believe here in America. How do you propose to stop it in this environment of religious liberty here in America?
The evil has to stop? You mean that the evil doctrine that is propounded by The Way has to stop? But those people in The Way have freedom of will, and the right to believe what they want to believe here in America. How do you propose to stop it in this environment of religious liberty here in America?
In all of your efforts to highlight their freedoms you seem to overlook some of ours. Freedom of speech, my friend.
In all of your efforts to highlight their freedoms you seem to overlook some of ours. Freedom of speech, my friend.
Of course you may say as you wish about it. I just wondered how you plan to "stop the evil". If you plan to do it by talking about it, then fine! Have at it! But if you plan to stop them from having their beliefs, well then, that would be a different story and an encroachment on their Constitutional rights...
Of course you may say as you wish about it. I just wondered how you plan to "stop the evil". If you plan to do it by talking about it, then fine! Have at it! But if you plan to stop them from having their beliefs, well then, that would be a different story and an encroachment on their Constitutional rights...
Their Constitutional rights end where mine begin. And all of the lawsuits they've experienced have proven that.
They are a bunch of hard-headed, hard-hearted morons who would never in a million years change because what they are doing is wrong according to scriptures or pure Christian decency - no, they need lawsuits to put boundaries around their abuse of people. You have to pay them minimum wage, limits to hours, limits to an employer's access to employees personal lives. No sexual harassment. Why would a Christian brother who is an employer need to be taken to court to ensure these rights are provided to their employees? Because they are fricken morons on a political power trip. They less resemble Christians than their worldly counterparts do in how they treat employees. Well let them take their 10 people who are still stupid enough to follow them and continue to build up their stupid titles being "the right holy cheesiest of the cheesy cheese". They have the Constitutional right to be locked up with their behavior.
Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship. Lie, Lie, and more of a Lie. There is no research done, the teaching is not teaching but 5x8 card reading, and there's better fellowship among virtually any group in the world you can take part in, even a prison gang.
"Just take the class, and your life will be better". Just run the other direction as fast as you can. You'd be safer with Amway, or some other multi-level marketing rip-off scheme.
Forgive them? No, forgive those that are caught up unwittingly in their schemes. They are Pharisees of Pharisees.
bringing the end of life/hospice aspect into this discussion makes it a totally different discussion i think, because it's a totally different phase of life...
i respectfully disagree...because imho, "the arts of dying" are the most likely foundational contexts for the NT, and the lessons learned are highly relevant in every phase of life.
if there was any Jewish wisdom being restored by Jesus, it involved the arts of dying, which begins when we are born, perhaps even before.
the living can be as enlightened by the dying as the one who is dying...and a little more awakened to wisdom and sanity before its too late.
forgiveness issues at the end of life illuminate the challenges of the lifelong human condition.
one thing the dying reminds us of, is not to wait and do all our homework in the 11th hour.
and dying is not always something that happens in it's appropriate season anyway.
Paul "died daily" for Christ's sake.
edited to add...and we grieve in every phase of life. people we know and love (and hate) die (and kill) in every phase of our lives. so end-of-life issues (and skills) apply every day.
and even if we are not immediately dying, we experience the loss of a large part of our lives as if we or someone we know has already died. physical death is but one kind of it.
We're talking about the moment of death?...Do you know what most soldiers say when they are lying in the battle field dying?...They call out for their mothers...
Forgiveness?...It's not how we die...it's how we live.
Sure, they have the freedom to believe whatever they want.....4 crucified, 17 crucified, 32 denials, the dead are just taking a dirt nap, the moon is made of Brie, precious really means costly, blah, blah and more blah........ couldn't care less.....but when those beliefs begin to dictate life altering decisions made by their followers, we're talking about something entirely different.... Tragedy after tragedy as a direct result of L.E.A.D ( when it became apparent there were serious problems, did they rethink their strategy?).......Women strong-armed into abortions they regret for the rest of their lives.....people foregoing proper medical treatment and dying as a result of trying to prove the law of believing....people killing themselves because they were told they were born of the wrong seed and that all hope for salvation was gone.....etc. Oh, but, hey! You could bring in the Mormons, the "Dubs", the People's Temple and Islam if you choose. It would really be a red herring as far as I'm concerned..... These people (TWI) promote a lifestyle that is severely detrimental to their followers. And they (the BOD) have never offered any sort of apology.....That's the bottom line.
Sure, they have the freedom to believe whatever they want.....4 crucified, 17 crucified, 32 denials, the dead are just taking a dirt nap, the moon is made of Brie, precious really means costly, blah, blah and more blah........ couldn't care less.....but when those beliefs begin to dictate life altering decisions made by their followers, we're talking about something entirely different.... Tragedy after tragedy as a direct result of L.E.A.D ( when it became apparent there were serious problems, did they rethink their strategy?).......Women strong-armed into abortions they regret for the rest of their lives.....people foregoing proper medical treatment and dying as a result of trying to prove the law of believing....people killing themselves because they were told they were born of the wrong seed and that all hope for salvation was gone.....etc. Oh, but, hey! You could bring in the Mormons, the "Dubs", the People's Temple and Islam if you choose. It would really be a red herring as far as I'm concerned..... These people (TWI) promote a lifestyle that is severely detrimental to their followers. And they (the BOD) have never offered any sort of apology.....That's the bottom line.
A sentiment worth repeating...
The damage they did to people cannot be calculated...they destroyed lives...and they continue to this day.
Sure, they have the freedom to believe whatever they want.....4 crucified, 17 crucified, 32 denials, the dead are just taking a dirt nap, the moon is made of Brie, precious really means costly, blah, blah and more blah........ couldn't care less.....but when those beliefs begin to dictate life altering decisions made by their followers, we're talking about something entirely different.... Tragedy after tragedy as a direct result of L.E.A.D ( when it became apparent there were serious problems, did they rethink their strategy?).......Women strong-armed into abortions they regret for the rest of their lives.....people foregoing proper medical treatment and dying as a result of trying to prove the law of believing....people killing themselves because they were told they were born of the wrong seed and that all hope for salvation was gone.....etc. Oh, but, hey! You could bring in the Mormons, the "Dubs", the People's Temple and Islam if you choose. It would really be a red herring as far as I'm concerned..... These people (TWI) promote a lifestyle that is severely detrimental to their followers. And they (the BOD) have never offered any sort of apology.....That's the bottom line.
Whether twi's bod ever offers any whiff of an apology.......matters not one whit to me. And, even though Craig, Don and Howard conspired to frame my decision to exit twi with a forceful character assassination at a corps meeting. They sure didn't want a limb coordinator turning the whole state against them.
Craig.......ousted and irrelevant.
Don.........dead.
Howard......old and retired.
For me, I've moved on and received hundreds of blessings hence. Life is good again and any spineless apology from twi, without godly sorrow, true repentance and a change of direction......pppppfffffftttt.
The bottom line is.............they are servants of corruption.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, THEY THEMSELVES ARE THE SERVANTS OF CORRUPTION: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
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excathedra
why did you start another thread ? of course forgiveness is possible
Ham
and the character assassination of someone who didn't agree with da way's interpretation of adultery..
forced abortions.. drugging, and or seduction of women.. etc. etc.
I can't forgive them in behalf of this..
Maybe the best resolution I can have in this situation is "I never did or would never do this s*it.. they are NOT, nor ever have been my brethren.."
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waysider
You have to wonder what the word "forgive" meant in Biblical times. Did it mean the same thing as it does today? It just seems to me that people today tend to use it interchangeably with "excuse". Is forgiving someone the same thing as excusing them? I wouldn't think it would be.
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sirguessalot
just posted this on the other forgiveness thread....
...
doesnt surprise me that few can recall an occasion where twi's highest leadership asked for forgiveness.
it was another one of those vital aspects of historical Christian doctrine and practice that was taken to the dump.
forgiveness was mostly reduced to a supernatural power, and mostly in the context of us being personally forgiven by our image of a distant God.
after that, forgiveness mostly flowed uphill towards leaders and husbands.
...
fwiw...in the fields of hospice, the pain of unforgiveness is like the common cold of end of life issues...a form of grief.
although, for some, the final pain is more about meaning, belonging or hope.
but like all such things, the fire only gets hotter as "the day of the lord" nears.
oftentimes, it becomes the last thing in the way of a peace-filled dying experience.
like a flaming sword blocking the way back to eden...or a lake of fire between us and paradise.
but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear.
mostly.
...
imho, if we can ever re-connect scripture with the end-of-life contexts they were most likely generated in, we may also reconnect with the arts and practices that "spiritual midwives" have developed over the millenia for all such conditions.
like how Jesus said 70x7, or life review exercises, shadow work, music and art therapy, etc...
...
and if we also could find ways to help people stop doing things that are nearly impossible for others to forgive...it would be like preventative medicine.
otherwise, we create emergency situations where forgiveness is much more difficult...even passed on for generations.
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teachmevp
Let's not forget? It seems all these people who say I got the word, but it is only
going to cost this much money, let's not forget the master VeePee and his clan,
they knew how to work it? Let's not forget all the hurt?
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waysider
Well, that brings up another good point. If you forgive someone for a transgression, does that mean you are supposed to forget it, as well? Wouldn't that be like leaving yourself open to the same type of wrong-doing in the future? "Live and learn." Know what I mean? You wouldn't be a very good student of life if you kept forgetting which pitfalls to avoid.
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Ham
a lot of good thoughts.
though.. even at the end of a life.. forgiveness from another is not a thing that I personally could mandate.
Yeah, it will all burn in the end.. but still..
perhaps it is a common cold. But try some of Granny's miracle cure, an odd mixture of sulfur, molasses and herbs, and within six weeks or so you will feel like a spring chicken..
let's see who remembers that reference..
I think I like that statement the best.
some individuals, the only thing one can do is to grieve with them..
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waysider
------ try some of Granny's miracle cure, an odd mixture of sulfur, molasses and herbs, and within six weeks or so you will feel like a spring chicken..
let's see who remembers that reference..
===========================================
That has to be from Beverly Hillbillies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfVTW8XxcYc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
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teachmevp
Their that old saying; jack me once, shame on you, jack me twice, shame on me?
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chockfull
Ham, I agree. No way. The evil has to stop. They do not need to whitewash the image of the adulterer and build a new generation of fools to worship it. Those halls need to come crumbling down around their ears.
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Ham
heh.. yep.
reminds me a lot of cramming down one's throat "forgive or be a defiler of the words of Jesus"..
nasty tasting medicine..
in the end though, one HAS to let go. One way or another..
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teachmevp
What about that forgive your brother seventy times seventy; but a con knows you
have to forgive them? VeePee's toxic, opened a lot of doors for the con's to work
one over? I can forgive, but to forget?
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brainfixed
bringing the end of life/hospice aspect into this discussion makes it a totally different discussion i think, because it's a totally different phase of life and even jesus lived one way and died another way, in that during his living years he spoke harshly and quite unforgivingly to the evil doers, but during his dying time he spoke those words of "father forgive them for they know not what they do". what made the difference? well, he was dying. his work here on earth was done. there was nothing left for him to do but ask his father to forgive them. and look at that, too, that he asked his father to forgive them and that he didn't say "i forgive you". so with jesus being the accepted example in this discussion then in our living years we must do what we can to stand against and point out and save ourselves and others from evil, but in our dying time we give ourselves and our work over to our father. jesus also said to "turn the other cheek" if someone smacks you on one cheek. but did he say to keep turning the other cheek? if you look at that "70x7" quote, you could interpret it that way. again, jesus being the example you would have to look at what he said and did in certain situations, and he didn't say and do the same thing in every similar situation, either.
but i think the real question here is not about forgiveness, but about being and staying a victim, and the question might be phrased "if i forgive somebody, does that mean that i stand there getting my cheeks whacked 70x7 times??????" to me that's a big DUH! NO! but what do i do, then? smack the person back? depends, really, and that's something that each person has to determine for themselves, and even jesus didn't do it the same way every time. there was at least one record of jesus getting good and pi$$ed off and throwing things around in a scene that would have had him arrested in today's "temples", so what was he really trying to say? sometimes we have to think for ourselves. oh GASP!!! there's just not a "cookie cutter" answer here, and not in any culture is there such a pat answer. it's hard to know what to do.
but forgiveness isn't our job i don't think, because how can it be? all we can offer the person in the form of "forgiveness" is to let them get away with what they pulled or are still pulling. well that's just plain old stupid. but do we have to exact a "fitting punishment" at every turn? not hardly. i think we have to look at many other things to grasp things in this "forgiveness" thinking because all it really means to a mere mortal is to let go of things that burden us for our own good. but forgiveness is for the good of the person who is being forgiven. see? us mere mortals simply can't do that while we remain merely mortal, but as we get closer and closer to immortality, well then we get a glimpse of what it all means and then we get the chance to try on our wings, so to speak, and soar with the eagles above all this mortal ooze of life and then we can fathom forgiveness and all it really entails. but in our living years? i don't think it can be done in reality.
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chockfull
brainfixed, I agree with you. It's not my job any more to forgive these clowns. I've turned over that responsibility to the Boss. And removed my life from their presence.
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ClayJay
The evil has to stop? You mean that the evil doctrine that is propounded by The Way has to stop? But those people in The Way have freedom of will, and the right to believe what they want to believe here in America. How do you propose to stop it in this environment of religious liberty here in America?
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chockfull
In all of your efforts to highlight their freedoms you seem to overlook some of ours. Freedom of speech, my friend.
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ClayJay
Of course you may say as you wish about it. I just wondered how you plan to "stop the evil". If you plan to do it by talking about it, then fine! Have at it! But if you plan to stop them from having their beliefs, well then, that would be a different story and an encroachment on their Constitutional rights...
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chockfull
Their Constitutional rights end where mine begin. And all of the lawsuits they've experienced have proven that.
They are a bunch of hard-headed, hard-hearted morons who would never in a million years change because what they are doing is wrong according to scriptures or pure Christian decency - no, they need lawsuits to put boundaries around their abuse of people. You have to pay them minimum wage, limits to hours, limits to an employer's access to employees personal lives. No sexual harassment. Why would a Christian brother who is an employer need to be taken to court to ensure these rights are provided to their employees? Because they are fricken morons on a political power trip. They less resemble Christians than their worldly counterparts do in how they treat employees. Well let them take their 10 people who are still stupid enough to follow them and continue to build up their stupid titles being "the right holy cheesiest of the cheesy cheese". They have the Constitutional right to be locked up with their behavior.
Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship. Lie, Lie, and more of a Lie. There is no research done, the teaching is not teaching but 5x8 card reading, and there's better fellowship among virtually any group in the world you can take part in, even a prison gang.
"Just take the class, and your life will be better". Just run the other direction as fast as you can. You'd be safer with Amway, or some other multi-level marketing rip-off scheme.
Forgive them? No, forgive those that are caught up unwittingly in their schemes. They are Pharisees of Pharisees.
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sirguessalot
i respectfully disagree...because imho, "the arts of dying" are the most likely foundational contexts for the NT, and the lessons learned are highly relevant in every phase of life.
if there was any Jewish wisdom being restored by Jesus, it involved the arts of dying, which begins when we are born, perhaps even before.
the living can be as enlightened by the dying as the one who is dying...and a little more awakened to wisdom and sanity before its too late.
forgiveness issues at the end of life illuminate the challenges of the lifelong human condition.
one thing the dying reminds us of, is not to wait and do all our homework in the 11th hour.
and dying is not always something that happens in it's appropriate season anyway.
Paul "died daily" for Christ's sake.
edited to add...and we grieve in every phase of life. people we know and love (and hate) die (and kill) in every phase of our lives. so end-of-life issues (and skills) apply every day.
and even if we are not immediately dying, we experience the loss of a large part of our lives as if we or someone we know has already died. physical death is but one kind of it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
We're talking about the moment of death?...Do you know what most soldiers say when they are lying in the battle field dying?...They call out for their mothers...
Forgiveness?...It's not how we die...it's how we live.
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waysider
Sure, they have the freedom to believe whatever they want.....4 crucified, 17 crucified, 32 denials, the dead are just taking a dirt nap, the moon is made of Brie, precious really means costly, blah, blah and more blah........ couldn't care less.....but when those beliefs begin to dictate life altering decisions made by their followers, we're talking about something entirely different.... Tragedy after tragedy as a direct result of L.E.A.D ( when it became apparent there were serious problems, did they rethink their strategy?).......Women strong-armed into abortions they regret for the rest of their lives.....people foregoing proper medical treatment and dying as a result of trying to prove the law of believing....people killing themselves because they were told they were born of the wrong seed and that all hope for salvation was gone.....etc. Oh, but, hey! You could bring in the Mormons, the "Dubs", the People's Temple and Islam if you choose. It would really be a red herring as far as I'm concerned..... These people (TWI) promote a lifestyle that is severely detrimental to their followers. And they (the BOD) have never offered any sort of apology.....That's the bottom line.
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excathedra
why did you start another thread ?
of course forgiveness is possible
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GrouchoMarxJr
A sentiment worth repeating...
The damage they did to people cannot be calculated...they destroyed lives...and they continue to this day.
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Ham
and I think that's *almost* the whole point here.
*they* know you for some reason or another abide by some doctrine that is convenient at *ahem* their beck and call..
very very interesting..
yeah.. you HAVE to forgive the con artist.. or do you?
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skyrider
Whether twi's bod ever offers any whiff of an apology.......matters not one whit to me. And, even though Craig, Don and Howard conspired to frame my decision to exit twi with a forceful character assassination at a corps meeting. They sure didn't want a limb coordinator turning the whole state against them.
Craig.......ousted and irrelevant.
Don.........dead.
Howard......old and retired.
For me, I've moved on and received hundreds of blessings hence. Life is good again and any spineless apology from twi, without godly sorrow, true repentance and a change of direction......pppppfffffftttt.
The bottom line is.............they are servants of corruption.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, [as] they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots [they are] and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam [the son] of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, THEY THEMSELVES ARE THE SERVANTS OF CORRUPTION: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
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