I think it is a tragedy that there is so much anger and fear between these groups. They all have their foundation in the same place. I have a childhood friend who is Muslim. We went to middle school together while our parents attended college. He is now a surgeon living in Egypt. We talk about the current events and the tensions that have continued to rise since 9/11 via facebook.
He said to me last night: "You remember the old days in Michigan, and how life was just nice and compare to now. There is recent mutation in thought in the last 20 years, but believe it is never Islam what you see or talk about, it is circle of misunderstanding as a result of some terrorists showed up I don't know where they came from. I feel down sad about what is going on, and dream things could return to the previous point one day, which I doubt!"
The foundation of the conversation was a video clip he posted of a man he calls insane, who is a Jihadist. I responded by saying to him that what scares me more than anything about people like the man in the video is not so much what he has to say, but how allegedly rational people will react to him. How they will fear, hate and blame millions of people because of what a small percentage say and do. Then, the young Muslim men feel discrimated against and it just pushes them to join up with the insane people like the man in the video. It becomes a viscious cycle.
All three of these religions are bound together by a common history. They are also bound together by a number of common doctrinal beliefs. Yet, we allow fear to rule and divide.
True enough, I find that to be an incredibly bizarre twist since one of those shared common doctrinal tenets is, or at least is supposed to be, a reliance on faith---
IMO they'd all do well to listen and adhere to the guides in their own books and traditions instead of spending their time trying to change, control, and manipulate the others...
yeah, tragedy. and grief. much is being lost and forgotten about the 3.
and much can be remembered.
if some have found common ground before, could it not be the same common ground we find now?
if so, how do we keep forgetting?
how do we keep from forgetting?
and how might we remember?
imho, any effort to "re-illuminate" the better histories of the three will go a long way to helping us find our way through this wild mess. not that we stop illuminating the tragedies. no, we illuminate them even more...and compare them to the better histories for even more clarity and direction.
edited to add...
which is more or less what you did by telling that story, Abi...illuminated us with a better story. big thanks.
Some would assume I should hate all Muslims. What people don't realize is that I grew up with many Muslims. They were my childhood friends and they were my neighbors. Some of them quite literally fed my family when we had no food to eat. I learned a tiny bit of their traditions. But what I learned mostly was that when it comes to what matters, they were not any different than the rest of us. They wanted food to eat, people to love, children to laugh with.
Pretty Ironic, if you think about it. One of my best friends was raised Christian. Her mother used to call me that dirty jew girl. Should I then paint all Christians with the hurt and anger those terrible words created within me?
Remeber too, even during WWII in Nazi Germany, there were Germans who opposed the regime. Germans who risked their lives to save a few of the Jews. What the Nazi's did to the Jews was a tragety to be remembered. But also to be remembered is that not all Germans were Nazis. Likewise, not all Muslims are terrorists.
And we do share common history . . . Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Do we not all three worship the God of Abraham? Why then, would we have more fear of each other than even those who worship other gods? (And I am NOT suggesting we should fear them, either.) Did not God promise Hagar's son that like Isaac, he would be a great nation? Why then, do we fight, when we are brother nations?
Should we be like Cain and Abel on a national level?
So the Quoran has stories and passages that advocate violence. Well, the God of Abraham, in His Bible, also has stories and passages that advocate violence. Sometimes violence is a necessary evil. But most rational people (whether Muslim, Jew, or Christian) recognize violence should only be used as an absolute last resort in self defense.
And, there are irrational Muslims, Christians, and Jews, who would advocate violence even when violence is not necessary.
I've never had any friends who are Muslim. But, I have done service work in lots of homes with Muslim residents. Some are really nice, some are total byotches and some are someplace in between. Ya know? Just like any other group of people. They don't seem to live a life that is all that much different than mine except for their diet. I should probably be asking them for advice on how to eat healthier.
Having not grown up with Q'uran, I am honestly not that familiar with it. I have attempted to read it a few times but have never made it all the way through. I have read enough to know that there is vast amount of really bad disinformation about which started me reading it in the first place. I'm still working on it as i think that, whether someone agrees with it or not, it at least should be viewed in an honest light.
Im also reading a book by Karen Armstrong, who I have respected as an author, entitled Islam-A Short History which is well written pulls no punches, is honest, well researched and easier to digest for a novice like myself.
One thing that comes to mind that hopefully won't produce a sidetrack is that for a large portion of the Christian population Christianity is defined around the belief that Jesus "is" God, as a part or person of God. (read: "trinity").
Muslims will never gather under that recognition. Jews don't accept Jesus as their Messiah or a savior for mankind's sins and certainly don't accept Him as "God" or divine.
It's mostly struck me over the last several years that the real definition of Christianity for nearly all the sects of the religion is that Jesus is divine, a person of "the godhead". Accepting Jesus as "the son of God" isn't enough.
I'm not suggesting that change in order to come to some kind of resolution, only stating it to illustrate that the differences are many between these three, some basic and fundamental and although there are similarities the differences are stark.
I believe that the foundational thoughts put into our "Declaration of Independence" provide a good place to start - it gives the foundational logic and reasoning for why a people can and should exist in harmony while pursuing their own destinies. In it the basis for resisting a hierarchical rule of the individual is clearly stated. It assumes that those declaring independence will collectively govern themselves and that all will be represented.
There has to be agreement that this is needed and right. I'm not sure we're ever going to see that concensus though.
I think it is a matter of perspective, Socks. We may have differing names for God, we may have differing rituatls for worship, but in the end we all want similar things.
I believe that the foundational thoughts put into our "Declaration of Independence" provide a good place to start - it gives the foundational logic and reasoning for why a people can and should exist in harmony while pursuing their own destinies. In it the basis for resisting a hierarchical rule of the individual is clearly stated. It assumes that those declaring independence will collectively govern themselves and that all will be represented.
There has to be agreement that this is needed and right. I'm not sure we're ever going to see that concensus though.
Many Christians agree with this idea. Yet, there are also those who would like to see their specific doctrinal beliefs made rule of law for this country. Issues such as abortion, pornography, the death pentaly, welfare, marriage and divorce - they would see their religious beliefs become the rule of law on these issues.
Similarly, there are many Jewish and Muslim people who would agree with foundational prinicipal of the Delcaration of Independence. Yet, there are also those Jews and Muslims who would like to see their particular doctrinal beliefs become the rule of law.
Still, we cannot paint all Christians, all Muslims, or all Jews with one brush based upon what some would want. Thanksfully, at least for now, those who would force all to live by their own doctrinal beliefs are still the minority here. How sad for those who are stuck in a country where the brutality and might of the few force all to live a certain way.
While I've not read the Koran, it seems to me that the big problem is that one of the things all the Abrahamic religions share is intolerance that can be blamed on their scriptural traditions.
The Jews trace their heritage back to Abraham Isaac and Jacob to whom God gave the lands of the Gentiles. To this day, the underlying cause for animosity between the Israelis and Palestinians over that property. The Israelis and their Zionist supporters here in the US believe that God gave them that land and that no one else's rights matter. The Old Testament is full of examples of the children of Israel basically committing what would today be seen as genocide. All with God's blessing and support.
Christians can't legitimately lay claim to that kind of holy war mindset, since Jesus was the Prince of Peace and said his kingdom was not of this world. But that didn't stop the early Roman Church from burning heretics and carrying on the Inquisition and the Crusades.
And as we know, those who practice Sharia law use the Koran to oppress women and proclaim death sentences on Christians and Jews.
So you're right that the three major religions share a common ancestry. And I believe most followers of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed want to do good, love God/Allah/Jesus and live in peace. But the Fundamentalists among all the tribes won't accept anything but their vision of God's will. As long as there are Fundamentalists in these religions, there will be war, hatred, and strife.
One thing that comes to mind that hopefully won't produce a sidetrack is that for a large portion of the Christian population Christianity is defined around the belief that Jesus "is" God, as a part or person of God. (read: "trinity").
I have never been able to quite figure out what that means or what that belief really looks like in the practical world. I.E. -How that belief specifically effects behaviour. Maybe it does but it seems more esoteric than affecting much of anything practically (I know I could be wrong on that..
...There are more "down to earth" doctrines that are common to all three that would at least make for good common ground.
They all carry one form or another of "The Golden Rule"(I'd argue that to be a central tenet of christianity myself-but that's for somewhere else) an emphasis on compassion, caring for the poor, loving their neighbor, faith etc etc
In too many places those beliefs have obviously been forgotten, but they are still central points that the majorities in each religion strive toward.
Muslims , Christians and Jews may never believe exactly the same on the internal spiritual essence of Jesus (I barely know two christians who can agree on that), on the ins and outs of alot of doctrinal points that are peculiar to each religion, or on methods and traditions BUT having many of the same prophets, the same stories and the same lessons they have much more common ground than differences in my opinion.
I have never been able to quite figure out what that means or what that belief really looks like in the practical world. I.E. -How that belief specifically effects behaviour. Maybe it does but it seems more esoteric than affecting much of anything practically (I know I could be wrong on that..
It effects behavior the same way insisting that God be called Allah or Yahwah does. It is a way to cause division for those who choose to use it that way (believer v unbeliever). To many other people, it probably has little effect at all, on the grand scheme of thingss.
...There are more "down to earth" doctrines that are common to all three that would at least make for good common ground.
They all carry one form or another of "The Golden Rule"(I'd argue that to be a central tenet of christianity myself-but that's for somewhere else) an emphasis on compassion, caring for the poor, loving their neighbor, faith etc etc
In too many places those beliefs have obviously been forgotten, but they are still central points that the majorities in each religion strive toward.
Muslims , Christians and Jews may never believe exactly the same on the internal spiritual essence of Jesus (I barely know two christians who can agree on that), on the ins and outs of alot of doctrinal points that are peculiar to each religion, or on methods and traditions BUT having many of the same prophets, the same stories and the same lessons they have much more common ground than differences in my opinion.
Exactly. We do have more common ground than difference. Including the division that exists within our own religions about who God is and what His will is for us. And isn't it silly that even though we cannot agree with one another within our own relgion, we would still attack those who proclaim a different religion altogether!
So you're right that the three major religions share a common ancestry. And I believe most followers of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed want to do good, love God/Allah/Jesus and live in peace. But the Fundamentalists among all the tribes won't accept anything but their vision of God's will. As long as there are Fundamentalists in these religions, there will be war, hatred, and strife.
Which is why my dad is an athiest and sees all religions as evil. Sad testimony on behalf of God, no? Regardless of what name one worships Him by.
Two of these groups will believe, when they see fire falling from the sky?
Will the Israelites have their land and rebuild their temple, before or after
the great fire event? The day of Yahweh will be a wake up call to a lot of
people; not knowledge, get tricked, don't get that number?
What if there is never a "great fire event?" What if there is no "wake up call?" What if the two groups you refer to are on the path that is right for them, even if it isn't God's plan for you? What if it is you who ends up having the wake up call?
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socks
One thing that comes to mind that hopefully won't produce a sidetrack is that for a large portion of the Christian population Christianity is defined around the belief that Jesus "is" God, as a part o
sirguessalot
pondering between chores... perhaps it can be said that Jesus was somehow the most developed of history, and happened to be a jewish man. and everyone who experienced him began interpreting and acti
socks
To add - this approach, known as "Rant 234", will probably not have the legs to go far, I know that. But the steady tapping of my keyboard keys is so soothing, I have to keep it up, yet a little while
Abigail
I think it is a tragedy that there is so much anger and fear between these groups. They all have their foundation in the same place. I have a childhood friend who is Muslim. We went to middle school together while our parents attended college. He is now a surgeon living in Egypt. We talk about the current events and the tensions that have continued to rise since 9/11 via facebook.
He said to me last night: "You remember the old days in Michigan, and how life was just nice and compare to now. There is recent mutation in thought in the last 20 years, but believe it is never Islam what you see or talk about, it is circle of misunderstanding as a result of some terrorists showed up I don't know where they came from. I feel down sad about what is going on, and dream things could return to the previous point one day, which I doubt!"
The foundation of the conversation was a video clip he posted of a man he calls insane, who is a Jihadist. I responded by saying to him that what scares me more than anything about people like the man in the video is not so much what he has to say, but how allegedly rational people will react to him. How they will fear, hate and blame millions of people because of what a small percentage say and do. Then, the young Muslim men feel discrimated against and it just pushes them to join up with the insane people like the man in the video. It becomes a viscious cycle.
All three of these religions are bound together by a common history. They are also bound together by a number of common doctrinal beliefs. Yet, we allow fear to rule and divide.
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mstar1
True enough, I find that to be an incredibly bizarre twist since one of those shared common doctrinal tenets is, or at least is supposed to be, a reliance on faith---
IMO they'd all do well to listen and adhere to the guides in their own books and traditions instead of spending their time trying to change, control, and manipulate the others...
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cman
I think 'Christians' have started more wars in the name of their 'God' than the other groups.
Regardless, I'd like to see the similarities of these 3 diverse religions.
And not another war.
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soul searcher
One thing I was surprised to learn recently is that Jews make up only about 0.23% of the world's poulation. I found that interesting.
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sirguessalot
yeah, tragedy. and grief. much is being lost and forgotten about the 3.
and much can be remembered.
if some have found common ground before, could it not be the same common ground we find now?
if so, how do we keep forgetting?
how do we keep from forgetting?
and how might we remember?
imho, any effort to "re-illuminate" the better histories of the three will go a long way to helping us find our way through this wild mess. not that we stop illuminating the tragedies. no, we illuminate them even more...and compare them to the better histories for even more clarity and direction.
edited to add...
which is more or less what you did by telling that story, Abi...illuminated us with a better story. big thanks.
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Abigail
Some would assume I should hate all Muslims. What people don't realize is that I grew up with many Muslims. They were my childhood friends and they were my neighbors. Some of them quite literally fed my family when we had no food to eat. I learned a tiny bit of their traditions. But what I learned mostly was that when it comes to what matters, they were not any different than the rest of us. They wanted food to eat, people to love, children to laugh with.
Pretty Ironic, if you think about it. One of my best friends was raised Christian. Her mother used to call me that dirty jew girl. Should I then paint all Christians with the hurt and anger those terrible words created within me?
Remeber too, even during WWII in Nazi Germany, there were Germans who opposed the regime. Germans who risked their lives to save a few of the Jews. What the Nazi's did to the Jews was a tragety to be remembered. But also to be remembered is that not all Germans were Nazis. Likewise, not all Muslims are terrorists.
And we do share common history . . . Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Do we not all three worship the God of Abraham? Why then, would we have more fear of each other than even those who worship other gods? (And I am NOT suggesting we should fear them, either.) Did not God promise Hagar's son that like Isaac, he would be a great nation? Why then, do we fight, when we are brother nations?
Should we be like Cain and Abel on a national level?
So the Quoran has stories and passages that advocate violence. Well, the God of Abraham, in His Bible, also has stories and passages that advocate violence. Sometimes violence is a necessary evil. But most rational people (whether Muslim, Jew, or Christian) recognize violence should only be used as an absolute last resort in self defense.
And, there are irrational Muslims, Christians, and Jews, who would advocate violence even when violence is not necessary.
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waysider
I've never had any friends who are Muslim. But, I have done service work in lots of homes with Muslim residents. Some are really nice, some are total byotches and some are someplace in between. Ya know? Just like any other group of people. They don't seem to live a life that is all that much different than mine except for their diet. I should probably be asking them for advice on how to eat healthier.
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cman
From your link I found this one-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Abrahamic_religions
Which adds the Bahá'à faith naturally....
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cman
these are interesting
http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/2447742/god_abraham
http://www.wordle.net/show/wrdl/2447741/abrahamic_religions
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mstar1
Having not grown up with Q'uran, I am honestly not that familiar with it. I have attempted to read it a few times but have never made it all the way through. I have read enough to know that there is vast amount of really bad disinformation about which started me reading it in the first place. I'm still working on it as i think that, whether someone agrees with it or not, it at least should be viewed in an honest light.
Im also reading a book by Karen Armstrong, who I have respected as an author, entitled Islam-A Short History which is well written pulls no punches, is honest, well researched and easier to digest for a novice like myself.
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cman
What stands out is consciousness.
Or even subconsciousness.
Awareness of God or whatever, like Christ or Spirit.
We all breath the same air.
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socks
One thing that comes to mind that hopefully won't produce a sidetrack is that for a large portion of the Christian population Christianity is defined around the belief that Jesus "is" God, as a part or person of God. (read: "trinity").
Muslims will never gather under that recognition. Jews don't accept Jesus as their Messiah or a savior for mankind's sins and certainly don't accept Him as "God" or divine.
It's mostly struck me over the last several years that the real definition of Christianity for nearly all the sects of the religion is that Jesus is divine, a person of "the godhead". Accepting Jesus as "the son of God" isn't enough.
I'm not suggesting that change in order to come to some kind of resolution, only stating it to illustrate that the differences are many between these three, some basic and fundamental and although there are similarities the differences are stark.
I believe that the foundational thoughts put into our "Declaration of Independence" provide a good place to start - it gives the foundational logic and reasoning for why a people can and should exist in harmony while pursuing their own destinies. In it the basis for resisting a hierarchical rule of the individual is clearly stated. It assumes that those declaring independence will collectively govern themselves and that all will be represented.
There has to be agreement that this is needed and right. I'm not sure we're ever going to see that concensus though.
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Abigail
I think it is a matter of perspective, Socks. We may have differing names for God, we may have differing rituatls for worship, but in the end we all want similar things.
Many Christians agree with this idea. Yet, there are also those who would like to see their specific doctrinal beliefs made rule of law for this country. Issues such as abortion, pornography, the death pentaly, welfare, marriage and divorce - they would see their religious beliefs become the rule of law on these issues.
Similarly, there are many Jewish and Muslim people who would agree with foundational prinicipal of the Delcaration of Independence. Yet, there are also those Jews and Muslims who would like to see their particular doctrinal beliefs become the rule of law.
Still, we cannot paint all Christians, all Muslims, or all Jews with one brush based upon what some would want. Thanksfully, at least for now, those who would force all to live by their own doctrinal beliefs are still the minority here. How sad for those who are stuck in a country where the brutality and might of the few force all to live a certain way.
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cman
Not to side track, but not only Jesus 'is', but every person is of? God.
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year2027
God first
thanks Todd
I been watching these post for a while
It makes me sad when I hear Muslims are right
It makes me sad when I hear Christians are right
It makes me sad when I hear Atheists are right
It makes me sad when I hear Jews are right
their all the same group Abraham children
I wrote to Todd because I knew he would understand
because nothing divides more than vain label
it might be a degree or it might census
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Jbarrax
While I've not read the Koran, it seems to me that the big problem is that one of the things all the Abrahamic religions share is intolerance that can be blamed on their scriptural traditions.
The Jews trace their heritage back to Abraham Isaac and Jacob to whom God gave the lands of the Gentiles. To this day, the underlying cause for animosity between the Israelis and Palestinians over that property. The Israelis and their Zionist supporters here in the US believe that God gave them that land and that no one else's rights matter. The Old Testament is full of examples of the children of Israel basically committing what would today be seen as genocide. All with God's blessing and support.
Christians can't legitimately lay claim to that kind of holy war mindset, since Jesus was the Prince of Peace and said his kingdom was not of this world. But that didn't stop the early Roman Church from burning heretics and carrying on the Inquisition and the Crusades.
And as we know, those who practice Sharia law use the Koran to oppress women and proclaim death sentences on Christians and Jews.
So you're right that the three major religions share a common ancestry. And I believe most followers of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed want to do good, love God/Allah/Jesus and live in peace. But the Fundamentalists among all the tribes won't accept anything but their vision of God's will. As long as there are Fundamentalists in these religions, there will be war, hatred, and strife.
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cman
Just when you think you got it figured,
your mind will be served up on a platter with unexpected acceptable results.
Labels matter to some and not others, no difference.
It's what's in the heart that matters.
As the Quaran taught some to abuse so did the Bible.
And carried it out to deadly results. twi is one of many examples.
What they can't see is where they miss it one every side.
If you could open the sky and ground to see what is really there.
Understanding would happen, and wisdom is held by virtue and honor.
Not knowledge.
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teachmevp
Two of these groups will believe, when they see fire falling from the sky?
Will the Israelites have their land and rebuild their temple, before or after
the great fire event? The day of Yahweh will be a wake up call to a lot of
people; not knowledge, get tricked, don't get that number?
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mstar1
I have never been able to quite figure out what that means or what that belief really looks like in the practical world. I.E. -How that belief specifically effects behaviour. Maybe it does but it seems more esoteric than affecting much of anything practically (I know I could be wrong on that..
...There are more "down to earth" doctrines that are common to all three that would at least make for good common ground.
They all carry one form or another of "The Golden Rule"(I'd argue that to be a central tenet of christianity myself-but that's for somewhere else) an emphasis on compassion, caring for the poor, loving their neighbor, faith etc etc
In too many places those beliefs have obviously been forgotten, but they are still central points that the majorities in each religion strive toward.
Muslims , Christians and Jews may never believe exactly the same on the internal spiritual essence of Jesus (I barely know two christians who can agree on that), on the ins and outs of alot of doctrinal points that are peculiar to each religion, or on methods and traditions BUT having many of the same prophets, the same stories and the same lessons they have much more common ground than differences in my opinion.
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Abigail
Which is why my dad is an athiest and sees all religions as evil. Sad testimony on behalf of God, no? Regardless of what name one worships Him by.
What if there is never a "great fire event?" What if there is no "wake up call?" What if the two groups you refer to are on the path that is right for them, even if it isn't God's plan for you? What if it is you who ends up having the wake up call?
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teachmevp
The gathering together is a coming, don't get fooled? Religions are man made
opinions of Yahweh, oh my!
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year2027
God first
thanks Abigail
your dad has common ground with three basic sects
but you cannot called it by anything
because he see the love in your heart for him
is not loving our brothers and sister
a doctrine, way of life, unspoken law
all four share
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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cman
The gathering together is quite different in beliefs.
It's not to be used as a threat imo, but a promise.
I think the gathering together happens a lot and has already and will again.
And there is a common ground in that, seeing a bit deeper into it.
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year2027
God first
thanks cman
yes my friend we all have common ground
with everybody and no one
in ways we can find something common
in other ways we cannot find anything with our religion
but when get truthful there there
but we are blind to the truth that in the open
thank you my friend
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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