I don't want nor need apology from from the TWI guys. There is one ex Way rev who humiliated me publicly in a most dastardly way, yet I don't need an apology from him. I have forgiven him and it's water way long gone under the bridge. Now, one certain ex Way rev/Corps coordinator apologized to me after we'd both been kicked out of The Way, and, I accepted his apology and was very blessed by it. He used to ride my case unmercifully out at Gunnison because I was always fishing that beautiful river, and to him, fishing was a "leisurely thing", and therefore "wrong". But when he apologized to me for it, yeah, it was very nice. I told him apology accepted and that I forgave him for it.
So, in answer to the original question, yeah, I suspect that there has been a lot of apologizing from individual Way leadership, but no doubt most of it came from people who ended up no longer with The Way. But an apology from the organization itself? I haven't heard of any, and so, don't hold your breathe waiting for one.
And Socks, thanks for that. Nicely said. Peace! :)
Oh wait! Actually, there were some apologies that came forth after the Passing Of A Patriarch was read and that whole thing blew sky high. I think I recall Martindale him self in an apology letter apologizing to the Way Corps as a group. I think that during that period, apology letters were flying all around the country. Remember when a couple or even a few more guys were added to the Board of Trustees? Townshend, and Caballero were two, and I think during this time when Craig was laid so low by the content of the POAP, he made some apologies before he began his lashing out campaign. So, I think the answer to your question is "yes" in a way. They were meaningless apologies though, and for what they were apologizing for I can't remember. For being "carnally minded" or some such thing...
doesnt surprise me that few can recall an occasion where twi's highest leadership asked for forgiveness.
it was another one of those vital aspects of historical Christian doctrine and practice that was taken to the dump.
forgiveness was mostly reduced to a supernatural power, and mostly in the context of us being personally forgiven by our image of a distant God.
after that, forgiveness mostly flowed uphill towards leaders and husbands.
...
fwiw...in the fields of hospice, the pain of unforgiveness is like the common cold of end of life issues...a form of grief.
although, for some, the final pain is more about meaning, belonging or hope.
but like all such things, the fire only gets hotter as "the day of the lord" nears.
oftentimes, it becomes the last thing in the way of a peace-filled dying experience.
like a flaming sword blocking the way back to eden...or a lake of fire between us and paradise.
but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear.
mostly.
...
imho, if we can ever re-connect scripture with the end-of-life contexts they were most likely generated in, we may also reconnect with the arts and practices that "spiritual midwives" have developed over the millenia for all such conditions.
like how Jesus said 70x7, or life review exercises, shadow work, music and art therapy, etc...
...
and if we also could find ways to help people stop doing things that are nearly impossible for others to forgive...it would be like preventative medicine.
otherwise, we create emergency situations where forgiveness is much more difficult...even passed on for generations.
And yes, Jesus was in the process of procuring our salvation, but who are you to say just exactly whom he was forgiving when he said that? How do you know that the pharisees were not included in that statement? I think that even if the pharisees "knew what they were doing", they really did NOT know what they were really doing. Because, they were deceived by Satan. They actually believed that they were doing the right thing. I mean, come on: If people who deceive others actually KNOW that they are doing the bidding of the GOD OF THIS WORLD, do you think they would continue? I doubt it. I seriously doubt that at all...
Anyway, have a great rest of the weekend. Peace out... :)
Clay thanks for the reponse. I'm not trying to fight with you or anyone, just getting to the root of an issue I've seen around here and have dealt with.
Who am I? Just a Christian, a son of God, and someone trying to apply scriptures and Biblical principles in my life. Nothing more than that. The Pharisees are an interesting study. The guys who wrote "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen, have quite a lot worked up on that topic in their book. My personal opinion is that Jesus didn't waste a lot of time praying for the Pharisees because their conscience was seared. Nor do I feel he spent a lot of time forgiving them.
I guess when you say people were deceived by Satan, that is true, but where is the personal accountability? Even Satan himself made a choice to allow his ego to run rampant and try to usurp God's power. People who allow themselves to be deceived by Satan do so by choice, by making a choice. People like the BOD of TWI, who act like they report to nobody else besides God Almighty, and lie and abuse their brothers and sisters, have that pride and ego by choice.
I heard recently about someone who returned to fellowshipping with TWI, who is dropped Corps, personally wronged by the BOD. Another person I know was at a fellowship with that person. This ex Corps person did the teaching. The teaching was on this topic of "forgiveness", very mealy mouthed, Polyanna, and it was touted that "forgiveness" was how people could "stand with the household" in spite of difficult situations, and that they should forgive the BOD and previous leaders that hurt them.
To me when I heard that report it made me want to vomit. It was like a dog returning to its vomit. The complete abuse cycle was set up to happen again. The abusers were excused, the victims were primed to take whatever more abuse they wanted to deal out. Some women live like that, with guys who like to beat them. To me it just makes me sick and sad.
No, when I left TWI, my prayers to God were that the abuse had to stop. The answer to my prayers were that for the abuse to stop my association with the abusers had to stop. So I stopped and made new friends and built a new life. The answer to my prayer wasn't "just forgive them".
Since I've left, I've turned over the debt of my abuse to God. So in my opinion that debt is no longer mine to forgive. It is Gods. I view it like turning over someone who owes you money to a collection agency. The person can deal with the agency, not with me any longer - I've given the debt away.
Now people are saying and quoting scripture that I have to go back and take the debt back from God so that I can personally forgive it so I can heal? Sorry - talk to the hand. Or talk to God about it. I'm not buying what they are selling.
Now if you want to define forgiveness as "casting my cares upon Him because He cares for me", and "vengeance is mine I will repay", then I can relate to that. I view Jesus teachings of loving your enemy, and turning the other cheek to be teaching a love that is higher than the pettiness that most surround themselves with. I just don't consider the depth of evil in the abuse I've suffered pettiness.
What I can't relate to is the weak definition of "forgiveness" that will enable TWI's abuse to continue, to deceive a whole new generation of kids like my kids. I don't want my kids to experience the abuse that I have. So I will use my voice to warn people of it. That's all I am - one Christian. That's all I have - one voice. You can use yours how you choose. You can use yours to judge me. That I'll give to the Father.
RFR apologized to me once, but it was an empty apology. She apologized for "hurting my feelin's" when, in fact, my feelings weren't hurt. I was angry because she lied to me and tried to manipulate me, so I called her out on it. She never owned up to the actual wrongs. So yes, she apologized, but her apology was laughable.
Nevertheless, I've forgiven her (a) because I believe it's required of me as a Christian and (b) because not to do so would give her too much importance in my life. I'm not going to carry the burden of bitterness around on my back just because I never got a real apology from her. Life's too short for me to sit around worrying about whether someone else does the right thing. I have enough to do to keep my own ducks in a row.
Nope, you misrepresent Jesus and his teachings when you make that statement. He didn`t tell anyone to forgive the pharacees and saducees. He called em vile names and condemned their actions.
Think I will follow Jesus` example of how to address those whom steal and destroy in the name of God.
What I can't relate to is the weak definition of "forgiveness" that will enable TWI's abuse to continue, to deceive a whole new generation of kids like my kids. I don't want my kids to experience the abuse that I have. So I will use my voice to warn people of it. That's all I am - one Christian. That's all I have - one voice. You can use yours how you choose. You can use yours to judge me. That I'll give to the Father.
Chockfull, I don't think forgiveness and speaking up are mutually exlusive. I can forgive someone and still warn others about that person's patterns of behavior...make that misbehavior. I don't think forgiveness is a weak thing at all. It takes a conscious decision and some mental/emotional effort.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm a big fan of accountability. I'm just not the one keeping track of everyone's accounts. Where grace and mercy will be given, and where they won't, is up to God. He's the one who knows all our hearts.
Chockfull, I don't think forgiveness and speaking up are mutually exlusive. I can forgive someone and still warn others about that person's patterns of behavior...make that misbehavior. I don't think forgiveness is a weak thing at all. It takes a conscious decision and some mental/emotional effort.
Well, maybe what I see in the word forgiveness is different than others. To me, when God forgives sins, He says that He puts them as far from us as the East is from the West and remembers them no more. Likewise, when I forgive a spouse, children, friends this is a similar type of thing. People can ask me "Do you remember when this happened?" and I honestly many times can not as I've forgotten it completely.
So I am just not seeing how you can forgive someone on one hand, but still speak up and warn others of them on the other hand. To me that is a two-faced Christianity. That is something that does not interest me. I saw enough of that in the Way. I can't do that.
No, those that have deeply affected my life in an evil way due to the evil that is within them, and who have not asked for my forgiveness will not receieve it. I will testify of their evil now, and if asked to will testify of it before the Just One, and witness His justice. They are not forgiven. Their sins are retained, by the hardness of their own heart.
I remember one delusional top TWI leader teaching that at the bema, there will be no accountability for sins, but rewards only. He used that belief to continue to justify his mistreatment of people, lying to people, lying about people, treating them poorly. Will there really be no accountability before God for evil? Is that what Jesus truly was teaching when he taught people to love their enemies?
For my life, I don't see how I can have some different standard of forgiveness than the one God has for me. I have to ask Him for forgiveness. Which means I have to internalize and vocalize at least mentally what exactly what it is I did wrong. In court they call it allocution. Those that believe they are never wrong will never be wrong until the charges are brought up in a higher court.
In TWI they taught that there are no degees of sin. I do not think I believe that. Some sins and some forms of evil are worse than others. Jesus said "woe be unto them that lead these little ones astray - it would be better for them if a millstone was hung around their neck".
I'm not going to carry the burden of bitterness around on my back just because I never got a real apology from her. Life's too short for me to sit around worrying about whether someone else does the right thing. I have enough to do to keep my own ducks in a row.
Right on LZ*. And yes, I too am all about "accountability". But, I too need not worry nor dwell on those who have hurt me in the past. No time for it. I doubt my name has crossed through Rosalie's or Martindale's brain for the longest time! So, why should I have their images and their deeds still in my brain? I'd rather be thinkin' 'bout fishin! Or playin music! Or having fine times with my kids! Or sex! Or all kinds of wonderful things that actually deserve my attention...
I'm not going to carry the burden of bitterness around on my back just because I never got a real apology from her.
Nor will I carry around any burden of bitterness from the abuse I have suffered. That is why I have given it to God, so he can have my care and take care of me. And I trust that in His time justice will be served.
Amen and valuable info I'm finally (!) getting in my brain is that anyone who has wronged me can say anything they want, even a heart felt apology and yet what they DO with it is the most important part to me.
Between them and their God, It's not my business; He'll deal w/ them, of that I am sure.
Not to mention if I stay angry with someone they likely could care less and certainly they're not going to waste a bunch of their time wishing they'd done something different or said they were sorry to Shellon North, who obviously is not important to them or they'd have called me, written me, located me and done the work necessary to remedy things broken between us.
Men and/or Women of God. Hmmm, yup, they're supposed to be held to some different standard, their butts against some different flame, I guess. Why, 'cuz they took some vow of leadership or promised some other man or woman they'd teach the Bible right? pffffffffffttttt
I do not care.
God is God is God and we're no better or worse than someone with a title or certificate or vow and any of us owe another repentance or apology or actions; waiting for it with some anger and pain is only going to bring anger and pain.
Acceptance is a painful pill to swallow and if I wander around with that pill stuck in my throat or inability to swallow that sucker, I'm going to miss time with my grand baby or my kids being piXXed off or resentful or stand there tapping my foot waiting; even while I know it's not coming to me.
Drives me nuts! But it's my choice. I have to accept that I'm not going to get an apology from nearly everyone. Whether it's from their pride and fear or something else as simple as they really don't understand they "owe" me one.
No one owes me jack and if I insist they do, I'm gonna be waiting a very long time, if only cuz I insist they pay me. Was it Grandma who said if we knew how little others really think about us...........
Yeah, TWI leaders consider me (and probably you) no more than the neighbor who offended me for some reason. Not worth my time and tears. God takes care of things and if I can muster enough patience to let HIm do His thing, I'll be ok.
Something else valuable I finally understand is allowing others to mess with me, whether they put it there or not. I want an apology from someone, I want to discuss something and it's obviously not forthcoming, no matter that I ever KNOW they know it. I step away and get myself out of that persons place in my life. I don't have to see them continue to hurt and be ignorant and continue to default on my heart or the hearts of others.
I'm only responsible for me, period. Stress dents the immune system, Blood pressure regulation is a valuable thing and my time is important to me.
TWI, family, friends, co workers, kids, neighbors.......anyone who isn't going to contact me and made amends or discuss things, this is America and I'm not wasting my time on 'em.
So I am just not seeing how you can forgive someone on one hand, but still speak up and warn others of them on the other hand. To me that is a two-faced Christianity. That is something that does not interest me. I saw enough of that in the Way. I can't do that.
My best response for this is that David (and others) sinned many times and from what I can tell God for him. But he also recorded his sins in the word for all of us to see. They serve as examples of what we are not supposed to do. He also received justice for the sins he committed. We are told in one place to forget the past, but in another to remember what we came out of. That's not two faced. We forget the past in that we no longer let it have any hold over us. We remember the past so we can be thankful for God's deliverance from what we came out of.
My best response for this is that David (and others) sinned many times and from what I can tell God for him. But he also recorded his sins in the word for all of us to see. They serve as examples of what we are not supposed to do. He also received justice for the sins he committed. We are told in one place to forget the past, but in another to remember what we came out of. That's not two faced. We forget the past in that we no longer let it have any hold over us. We remember the past so we can be thankful for God's deliverance from what we came out of.
My best response to this is that the BOD of TWI are not David. They have sinned many times and yet have and continue to cover their sins over, to sweep them under the carpet. There sins are not recorded anywhere for people to see except for this website. That they are recorded here are some of the great things about modern technology - where people's reputation is more public knowledge.
Warning people about idiots like that is a public service. They can kiss my @$$.
My position is that forgiveness is no longer mine to give. I have turned that over to God. So that's how I fulfill those scriptures about "if you have anything against your brother resolve it before offering at the alter". I no longer have anything against them. God does. For mistreating people. I'm just one example. And again if you didn't catch it the first time, they are f'ing idiots. Hopefully that position doesn't offend people who really are comfortable with the victim role too much.
Yeah, TWI leaders consider me (and probably you) no more than the neighbor who offended me for some reason. Not worth my time and tears. God takes care of things and if I can muster enough patience to let HIm do His thing, I'll be ok.
It reminded me of a Way rev Limb Leader who did us (my wife and I) much harm. And for years afterward, when the subject of what he did came up, I would reiterate the whole damned incident and get pi$$ed off all over again. Oh, I'd go into great detail in the recitation of how we had been manipulated and hurt and humiliated, proving all over again just how right on we had been and wrong he had been! And finally, my wife says; "Honey, that was ten years ago. You need to let it go. You just need to forgive him and drop it. It's over. And ya know what? Do you think that he even thinks about that incident at all? Probably not" she said. And it hit me. There I was, getting all worked up over the whole deal, and just like Ham's bear, he probably hasn't even given it a second thought since it happened so long ago! So why am I dwelling on it still when he doesn't give on whit about it?? And so, we prayed right then and there, and asked God to forgive him, and that maybe his eyes will be opened one day, and that he and his wife and children could live a blessed life. They too have been out of The Way for a long time now, and if he never apologizes for that incident, I really don't give a ratz a$$...
My best response to this is that the BOD of TWI are not David. They have sinned many times and yet have and continue to cover their sins over, to sweep them under the carpet. There sins are not recorded anywhere for people to see except for this website. That they are recorded here are some of the great things about modern technology - where people's reputation is more public knowledge.
Warning people about idiots like that is a public service. They can kiss my @$$.
My position is that forgiveness is no longer mine to give. I have turned that over to God. So that's how I fulfill those scriptures about "if you have anything against your brother resolve it before offering at the alter". I no longer have anything against them. God does. For mistreating people. I'm just one example. And again if you didn't catch it the first time, they are f'ing idiots. Hopefully that position doesn't offend people who really are comfortable with the victim role too much.
I have never said that the BOD are like David. I simply pointed out that if God forgave David and still made known his sins in response to one of your statements. Why could we not forgive them, and still make known what needs to be known in the intrests of protecting and other and having justice served. There is a need to make known what happened to protect others and so that justice can be servied. It wouldn't be right of me to not make known to others a potinially dangereous situation. It would also be wrong of me not to allow justice to not be served. By forgiving them, I get rid of my bitterness. I don't get rid of what happened. If they are unrepentant and don't make a change it doesn't change what they are doing. From what I can tell, God doesn't cleanse us of all rightousness untill we ask for forgivness, it is part of receiving our forgivness. Untill then our sins are out for all to see. But He has already forgiven us in Christ. And, no offence meant, calling them f'ing idots, doesn't warn me of anything, but telling me what they did..does
It reminded me of a Way rev Limb Leader who did us (my wife and I) much harm. And for years afterward, when the subject of what he did came up, I would reiterate the whole damned incident and get pi$$ed off all over again. Oh, I'd go into great detail in the recitation of how we had been manipulated and hurt and humiliated, proving all over again just how right on we had been and wrong he had been! And finally, my wife says; "Honey, that was ten years ago. You need to let it go. You just need to forgive him and drop it. It's over. And ya know what? Do you think that he even thinks about that incident at all? Probably not" she said. And it hit me. There I was, getting all worked up over the whole deal, and just like Ham's bear, he probably hasn't even given it a second thought since it happened so long ago! So why am I dwelling on it still when he doesn't give on whit about it?? And so, we prayed right then and there, and asked God to forgive him, and that maybe his eyes will be opened one day, and that he and his wife and children could live a blessed life. They too have been out of The Way for a long time now, and if he never apologizes for that incident, I really don't give a ratz a$$...
I don't give a ratz @$$ either whether they apologize. At this point they can apologize to God because I've moved on and am not interested in their shenanigans any more.
I would enjoy your account above much more if it wasn't almost identical to the advice I've heard from a number of TWI top leadership who used it to encourage people to continue to "stand with the household" in spite of mistreatment. "After all, we have 'da Verd' that we agree on - that's most important".
Their other main argument is "You don't have to like everything about the ministry. You don't even like everything about yourself".
They too can kiss my @$$.
You on the other hand, ClayJay, are an all right guy. Even if I'm not agreeing with you.
I have never said that the BOD are like David. I simply pointed out that if God forgave David and still made known his sins in response to one of your statements. Why could we not forgive them, and still make known what needs to be known in the intrests of protecting and other and having justice served. There is a need to make known what happened to protect others and so that justice can be servied. It wouldn't be right of me to not make known to others a potinially dangereous situation. It would also be wrong of me not to allow justice to not be served. By forgiving them, I get rid of my bitterness. I don't get rid of what happened. If they are unrepentant and don't make a change it doesn't change what they are doing. From what I can tell, God doesn't cleanse us of all rightousness untill we ask for forgivness, it is part of receiving our forgivness. Untill then our sins are out for all to see. But He has already forgiven us in Christ. And, no offence meant, calling them f'ing idots, doesn't warn me of anything, but telling me what they did..does
Keith, we may be arguing semantics of definitions at this point as opposed to disagreeing on the substance of what we're discussing. The important tenets to me are - moving on and not retaining bitterness, warning others of evil, and justice for idiots. And freedom of speech because dammit we live in America.
The important tenets to me are - moving on and not retaining bitterness, warning others of evil, and justice for idiots. And freedom of speech because dammit we live in America.
AMEN. My point exactly, except I might have used "the guilty," instead of "idiots." I don't think an idiot means to do what they did. but then we're back to semantics about what guilty means.
for me personally i can forgive anyone because of jesus christ
i did like this post
Not to worry - I forgive you and if you should stand alone one day with no one to speak for you I will. Dare I ask - do the same for me - that had I known as I am known I would have done better.
i have a feeling though, i won't need anyone because of jesus christ
It seems like when you forgive someone, it's usually accompanied by the expectation that the transgression wont happen again. Otherwise, it would just be enablement.
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Keith
Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard, Jesus forgave those who crucified him and they obvi
chockfull
To me it is not a moot point. I think scripture is pretty clear that if we confess our sins, He is able and willing to forgive sins. That's our relationship with our Heavenly Father. Now I'm not ge
shortfuse
My $.02 on the original question without having really digested all the discussion that followed. My parents used to have mad file cabinets full of way stuff growing up. At some point they had this
waysider
One question...Who should ask forgiveness of whom, on behalf of who, for what transgressions exacted on whom?...
-----------------------------------------------
Original question:
"Is there any category small or large that TWI's Board of Directors has ever asked for forgiveness in? To any group?"
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teachmevp
It seems that they have grace, they can do what ever they want to do, with grace?
I have been ripped off by these grace believers, declare one a unbelieving believer,
take whatever they want, what a scam? For them to ask for forgiveness would show
weakness on their part?
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ClayJay
I don't want nor need apology from from the TWI guys. There is one ex Way rev who humiliated me publicly in a most dastardly way, yet I don't need an apology from him. I have forgiven him and it's water way long gone under the bridge. Now, one certain ex Way rev/Corps coordinator apologized to me after we'd both been kicked out of The Way, and, I accepted his apology and was very blessed by it. He used to ride my case unmercifully out at Gunnison because I was always fishing that beautiful river, and to him, fishing was a "leisurely thing", and therefore "wrong". But when he apologized to me for it, yeah, it was very nice. I told him apology accepted and that I forgave him for it.
So, in answer to the original question, yeah, I suspect that there has been a lot of apologizing from individual Way leadership, but no doubt most of it came from people who ended up no longer with The Way. But an apology from the organization itself? I haven't heard of any, and so, don't hold your breathe waiting for one.
And Socks, thanks for that. Nicely said. Peace!
:)
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ClayJay
Oh wait! Actually, there were some apologies that came forth after the Passing Of A Patriarch was read and that whole thing blew sky high. I think I recall Martindale him self in an apology letter apologizing to the Way Corps as a group. I think that during that period, apology letters were flying all around the country. Remember when a couple or even a few more guys were added to the Board of Trustees? Townshend, and Caballero were two, and I think during this time when Craig was laid so low by the content of the POAP, he made some apologies before he began his lashing out campaign. So, I think the answer to your question is "yes" in a way. They were meaningless apologies though, and for what they were apologizing for I can't remember. For being "carnally minded" or some such thing...
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sirguessalot
doesnt surprise me that few can recall an occasion where twi's highest leadership asked for forgiveness.
it was another one of those vital aspects of historical Christian doctrine and practice that was taken to the dump.
forgiveness was mostly reduced to a supernatural power, and mostly in the context of us being personally forgiven by our image of a distant God.
after that, forgiveness mostly flowed uphill towards leaders and husbands.
...
fwiw...in the fields of hospice, the pain of unforgiveness is like the common cold of end of life issues...a form of grief.
although, for some, the final pain is more about meaning, belonging or hope.
but like all such things, the fire only gets hotter as "the day of the lord" nears.
oftentimes, it becomes the last thing in the way of a peace-filled dying experience.
like a flaming sword blocking the way back to eden...or a lake of fire between us and paradise.
but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear.
mostly.
...
imho, if we can ever re-connect scripture with the end-of-life contexts they were most likely generated in, we may also reconnect with the arts and practices that "spiritual midwives" have developed over the millenia for all such conditions.
like how Jesus said 70x7, or life review exercises, shadow work, music and art therapy, etc...
...
and if we also could find ways to help people stop doing things that are nearly impossible for others to forgive...it would be like preventative medicine.
otherwise, we create emergency situations where forgiveness is much more difficult...even passed on for generations.
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chockfull
Clay thanks for the reponse. I'm not trying to fight with you or anyone, just getting to the root of an issue I've seen around here and have dealt with.
Who am I? Just a Christian, a son of God, and someone trying to apply scriptures and Biblical principles in my life. Nothing more than that. The Pharisees are an interesting study. The guys who wrote "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", David Johnson and Jeff Van Vonderen, have quite a lot worked up on that topic in their book. My personal opinion is that Jesus didn't waste a lot of time praying for the Pharisees because their conscience was seared. Nor do I feel he spent a lot of time forgiving them.
I guess when you say people were deceived by Satan, that is true, but where is the personal accountability? Even Satan himself made a choice to allow his ego to run rampant and try to usurp God's power. People who allow themselves to be deceived by Satan do so by choice, by making a choice. People like the BOD of TWI, who act like they report to nobody else besides God Almighty, and lie and abuse their brothers and sisters, have that pride and ego by choice.
I heard recently about someone who returned to fellowshipping with TWI, who is dropped Corps, personally wronged by the BOD. Another person I know was at a fellowship with that person. This ex Corps person did the teaching. The teaching was on this topic of "forgiveness", very mealy mouthed, Polyanna, and it was touted that "forgiveness" was how people could "stand with the household" in spite of difficult situations, and that they should forgive the BOD and previous leaders that hurt them.
To me when I heard that report it made me want to vomit. It was like a dog returning to its vomit. The complete abuse cycle was set up to happen again. The abusers were excused, the victims were primed to take whatever more abuse they wanted to deal out. Some women live like that, with guys who like to beat them. To me it just makes me sick and sad.
No, when I left TWI, my prayers to God were that the abuse had to stop. The answer to my prayers were that for the abuse to stop my association with the abusers had to stop. So I stopped and made new friends and built a new life. The answer to my prayer wasn't "just forgive them".
Since I've left, I've turned over the debt of my abuse to God. So in my opinion that debt is no longer mine to forgive. It is Gods. I view it like turning over someone who owes you money to a collection agency. The person can deal with the agency, not with me any longer - I've given the debt away.
Now people are saying and quoting scripture that I have to go back and take the debt back from God so that I can personally forgive it so I can heal? Sorry - talk to the hand. Or talk to God about it. I'm not buying what they are selling.
Now if you want to define forgiveness as "casting my cares upon Him because He cares for me", and "vengeance is mine I will repay", then I can relate to that. I view Jesus teachings of loving your enemy, and turning the other cheek to be teaching a love that is higher than the pettiness that most surround themselves with. I just don't consider the depth of evil in the abuse I've suffered pettiness.
What I can't relate to is the weak definition of "forgiveness" that will enable TWI's abuse to continue, to deceive a whole new generation of kids like my kids. I don't want my kids to experience the abuse that I have. So I will use my voice to warn people of it. That's all I am - one Christian. That's all I have - one voice. You can use yours how you choose. You can use yours to judge me. That I'll give to the Father.
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Linda Z
Re: the original question:
RFR apologized to me once, but it was an empty apology. She apologized for "hurting my feelin's" when, in fact, my feelings weren't hurt. I was angry because she lied to me and tried to manipulate me, so I called her out on it. She never owned up to the actual wrongs. So yes, she apologized, but her apology was laughable.
Nevertheless, I've forgiven her (a) because I believe it's required of me as a Christian and (b) because not to do so would give her too much importance in my life. I'm not going to carry the burden of bitterness around on my back just because I never got a real apology from her. Life's too short for me to sit around worrying about whether someone else does the right thing. I have enough to do to keep my own ducks in a row.
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rascal
Nope, you misrepresent Jesus and his teachings when you make that statement. He didn`t tell anyone to forgive the pharacees and saducees. He called em vile names and condemned their actions.
Think I will follow Jesus` example of how to address those whom steal and destroy in the name of God.
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Linda Z
Chockfull, I don't think forgiveness and speaking up are mutually exlusive. I can forgive someone and still warn others about that person's patterns of behavior...make that misbehavior. I don't think forgiveness is a weak thing at all. It takes a conscious decision and some mental/emotional effort.
Please don't misunderstand. I'm a big fan of accountability. I'm just not the one keeping track of everyone's accounts. Where grace and mercy will be given, and where they won't, is up to God. He's the one who knows all our hearts.
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chockfull
Well, maybe what I see in the word forgiveness is different than others. To me, when God forgives sins, He says that He puts them as far from us as the East is from the West and remembers them no more. Likewise, when I forgive a spouse, children, friends this is a similar type of thing. People can ask me "Do you remember when this happened?" and I honestly many times can not as I've forgotten it completely.
So I am just not seeing how you can forgive someone on one hand, but still speak up and warn others of them on the other hand. To me that is a two-faced Christianity. That is something that does not interest me. I saw enough of that in the Way. I can't do that.
No, those that have deeply affected my life in an evil way due to the evil that is within them, and who have not asked for my forgiveness will not receieve it. I will testify of their evil now, and if asked to will testify of it before the Just One, and witness His justice. They are not forgiven. Their sins are retained, by the hardness of their own heart.
I remember one delusional top TWI leader teaching that at the bema, there will be no accountability for sins, but rewards only. He used that belief to continue to justify his mistreatment of people, lying to people, lying about people, treating them poorly. Will there really be no accountability before God for evil? Is that what Jesus truly was teaching when he taught people to love their enemies?
For my life, I don't see how I can have some different standard of forgiveness than the one God has for me. I have to ask Him for forgiveness. Which means I have to internalize and vocalize at least mentally what exactly what it is I did wrong. In court they call it allocution. Those that believe they are never wrong will never be wrong until the charges are brought up in a higher court.
In TWI they taught that there are no degees of sin. I do not think I believe that. Some sins and some forms of evil are worse than others. Jesus said "woe be unto them that lead these little ones astray - it would be better for them if a millstone was hung around their neck".
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ClayJay
Right on LZ*. And yes, I too am all about "accountability". But, I too need not worry nor dwell on those who have hurt me in the past. No time for it. I doubt my name has crossed through Rosalie's or Martindale's brain for the longest time! So, why should I have their images and their deeds still in my brain? I'd rather be thinkin' 'bout fishin! Or playin music! Or having fine times with my kids! Or sex! Or all kinds of wonderful things that actually deserve my attention...
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chockfull
Nor will I carry around any burden of bitterness from the abuse I have suffered. That is why I have given it to God, so he can have my care and take care of me. And I trust that in His time justice will be served.
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Shellon
Amen and valuable info I'm finally (!) getting in my brain is that anyone who has wronged me can say anything they want, even a heart felt apology and yet what they DO with it is the most important part to me.
Between them and their God, It's not my business; He'll deal w/ them, of that I am sure.
Not to mention if I stay angry with someone they likely could care less and certainly they're not going to waste a bunch of their time wishing they'd done something different or said they were sorry to Shellon North, who obviously is not important to them or they'd have called me, written me, located me and done the work necessary to remedy things broken between us.
Men and/or Women of God. Hmmm, yup, they're supposed to be held to some different standard, their butts against some different flame, I guess. Why, 'cuz they took some vow of leadership or promised some other man or woman they'd teach the Bible right? pffffffffffttttt
I do not care.
God is God is God and we're no better or worse than someone with a title or certificate or vow and any of us owe another repentance or apology or actions; waiting for it with some anger and pain is only going to bring anger and pain.
Acceptance is a painful pill to swallow and if I wander around with that pill stuck in my throat or inability to swallow that sucker, I'm going to miss time with my grand baby or my kids being piXXed off or resentful or stand there tapping my foot waiting; even while I know it's not coming to me.
Drives me nuts! But it's my choice. I have to accept that I'm not going to get an apology from nearly everyone. Whether it's from their pride and fear or something else as simple as they really don't understand they "owe" me one.
No one owes me jack and if I insist they do, I'm gonna be waiting a very long time, if only cuz I insist they pay me. Was it Grandma who said if we knew how little others really think about us...........
Yeah, TWI leaders consider me (and probably you) no more than the neighbor who offended me for some reason. Not worth my time and tears. God takes care of things and if I can muster enough patience to let HIm do His thing, I'll be ok.
Something else valuable I finally understand is allowing others to mess with me, whether they put it there or not. I want an apology from someone, I want to discuss something and it's obviously not forthcoming, no matter that I ever KNOW they know it. I step away and get myself out of that persons place in my life. I don't have to see them continue to hurt and be ignorant and continue to default on my heart or the hearts of others.
I'm only responsible for me, period. Stress dents the immune system, Blood pressure regulation is a valuable thing and my time is important to me.
TWI, family, friends, co workers, kids, neighbors.......anyone who isn't going to contact me and made amends or discuss things, this is America and I'm not wasting my time on 'em.
I have a requirement to please God.
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Keith
My best response for this is that David (and others) sinned many times and from what I can tell God for him. But he also recorded his sins in the word for all of us to see. They serve as examples of what we are not supposed to do. He also received justice for the sins he committed. We are told in one place to forget the past, but in another to remember what we came out of. That's not two faced. We forget the past in that we no longer let it have any hold over us. We remember the past so we can be thankful for God's deliverance from what we came out of.
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chockfull
My best response to this is that the BOD of TWI are not David. They have sinned many times and yet have and continue to cover their sins over, to sweep them under the carpet. There sins are not recorded anywhere for people to see except for this website. That they are recorded here are some of the great things about modern technology - where people's reputation is more public knowledge.
Warning people about idiots like that is a public service. They can kiss my @$$.
My position is that forgiveness is no longer mine to give. I have turned that over to God. So that's how I fulfill those scriptures about "if you have anything against your brother resolve it before offering at the alter". I no longer have anything against them. God does. For mistreating people. I'm just one example. And again if you didn't catch it the first time, they are f'ing idiots. Hopefully that position doesn't offend people who really are comfortable with the victim role too much.
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ClayJay
Awesome post Shell. When you said
It reminded me of a Way rev Limb Leader who did us (my wife and I) much harm. And for years afterward, when the subject of what he did came up, I would reiterate the whole damned incident and get pi$$ed off all over again. Oh, I'd go into great detail in the recitation of how we had been manipulated and hurt and humiliated, proving all over again just how right on we had been and wrong he had been! And finally, my wife says; "Honey, that was ten years ago. You need to let it go. You just need to forgive him and drop it. It's over. And ya know what? Do you think that he even thinks about that incident at all? Probably not" she said. And it hit me. There I was, getting all worked up over the whole deal, and just like Ham's bear, he probably hasn't even given it a second thought since it happened so long ago! So why am I dwelling on it still when he doesn't give on whit about it?? And so, we prayed right then and there, and asked God to forgive him, and that maybe his eyes will be opened one day, and that he and his wife and children could live a blessed life. They too have been out of The Way for a long time now, and if he never apologizes for that incident, I really don't give a ratz a$$...
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Keith
I have never said that the BOD are like David. I simply pointed out that if God forgave David and still made known his sins in response to one of your statements. Why could we not forgive them, and still make known what needs to be known in the intrests of protecting and other and having justice served. There is a need to make known what happened to protect others and so that justice can be servied. It wouldn't be right of me to not make known to others a potinially dangereous situation. It would also be wrong of me not to allow justice to not be served. By forgiving them, I get rid of my bitterness. I don't get rid of what happened. If they are unrepentant and don't make a change it doesn't change what they are doing. From what I can tell, God doesn't cleanse us of all rightousness untill we ask for forgivness, it is part of receiving our forgivness. Untill then our sins are out for all to see. But He has already forgiven us in Christ. And, no offence meant, calling them f'ing idots, doesn't warn me of anything, but telling me what they did..does
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chockfull
I don't give a ratz @$$ either whether they apologize. At this point they can apologize to God because I've moved on and am not interested in their shenanigans any more.
I would enjoy your account above much more if it wasn't almost identical to the advice I've heard from a number of TWI top leadership who used it to encourage people to continue to "stand with the household" in spite of mistreatment. "After all, we have 'da Verd' that we agree on - that's most important".
Their other main argument is "You don't have to like everything about the ministry. You don't even like everything about yourself".
They too can kiss my @$$.
You on the other hand, ClayJay, are an all right guy. Even if I'm not agreeing with you.
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chockfull
Keith, we may be arguing semantics of definitions at this point as opposed to disagreeing on the substance of what we're discussing. The important tenets to me are - moving on and not retaining bitterness, warning others of evil, and justice for idiots. And freedom of speech because dammit we live in America.
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Keith
AMEN. My point exactly, except I might have used "the guilty," instead of "idiots." I don't think an idiot means to do what they did.
but then we're back to semantics about what guilty means.
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chockfull
It's a metaphor. What's a metaphor? Grazing cows.
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excathedra
for me personally i can forgive anyone because of jesus christ
i did like this post
i have a feeling though, i won't need anyone because of jesus christ
but is so nice to hear that and i thank you
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Ham
Heh.. the bear doesn't care. He's off looking for fresh meat. Doesn't make any difference who, or what, or when, or where..
but we don't care, do we..
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waysider
I dunno.
It seems like when you forgive someone, it's usually accompanied by the expectation that the transgression wont happen again. Otherwise, it would just be enablement.
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