You see there is a portion of this I do not agree with and I think it is an important distinction. The scripture "vengeance is mine, I will repay" is not this. It is not tearing up the bill you owe me. It is handing the bill you owe me to God. I will no longer pursue personally collecting upon it, as that task could negatively impact my life. I will turn it over to a higher power to deal with and move on.
I think if people get in the habit of tearing up bills when people are continually abusing them that is wrong. It is playing the victim mindset. No, I want the bill collected. I just don't want to burn up my life doing it myself. Abusing people is wrong. It needs to stop. People need to pay for abusing others.
This was written in response to a post that I made that said in part, Forgiveness says "it's not okay, what you did was terrible, but I'm tearing up the bill you owe me. This is no longer in my hands, I seek no revenge."
You make an excellent point. Yes, I think you're right, I don't "tear up the bill" as if there were no wrong committed. I hand the bill over to God and no longer personally pursue collecting upon it. An important distinction indeed. It's still forgiving, though, and not excusing, as if everything were o.k.
Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard,
Guess If you want to use the bible as a standard, I read where God apparently requires repentance and us actually asking before HE forgives, never simply as a matter of course or to make himself feel better.
Maybe Jesus` prayers for those that crucified him were to avert the consequences of their actions because they didn`t know what they were doing....
In direct contrast, the board of twi is fully aware of the immorality and consequences of their despicable behavior.
Kind of like the pharacees that preyed on people in God`s name....Jesus certainly didn`t tell us to pray for THEM...He was down right ....ed.
Folks can forgive if they want, but I think a line is crossed when it is claimed that is what God expects of us without the prerequisit of repentance and asking.
maybe.. but then again, maybe it depends on how you define "we".
Maybe the worst thing they did.. call themselves our (or my) brethren. Forgive them? I don't know if one even can- they've proven to my satisfaction that they are not my brethren.. more like they are proven deceivers.
It would be like a community trying to forgive a serial killer or something..
why is it when one rubs a little veneer of the bible on a godless organization, things are supposed to so different?
They, rosie, the donster, et. al.. are spiritual serial killers.. they simply perform a function of what they are.
no, I'll never get the time back, nor the money. It's like the thought of collecting social security in about ten years or so..
maybe.. but then again, maybe it depends on how you define "we".
Maybe the worst thing they did.. call themselves our (or my) brethren. Forgive them? I don't know if one even can- they've proven to my satisfaction that they are not my brethren.. more like they are proven deceivers.
It would be like a community trying to forgive a serial killer or something..
why is it when one rubs a little veneer of the bible on a godless organization, things are supposed to so different?
They, rosie, the donster, et. al.. are spiritual serial killers.. they simply perform a function of what they are.
no, I'll never get the time back, nor the money. It's like the thought of collecting social security in about ten years or so..
Too true Mr.. Ham :)
Scriptures also say that God claims vengeance is his,and that he will repay....That doesn`t sound very forgiving to me. Is God going to cut them some slack for the evil perpetrated just because I decide to forgive them?? Where is repentance in there? Where is the accountability?
Seems rather presumptuous to think that I have any business in even considering forgiving these guys for the evil they personally committed in the name of God.
Not my call really, that is between them and God. I am still madder than hell at what they did in God`s name though.
Okay. So, if the offender is dead, and cannot apologize, then, forgiveness must not be given. VP, HW, EO, and DDW are all dead. Even if they wanted to request your forgiveness after an apology, they cannot do it, and according to your doctrine, you are not allowed to forgive and therefore you must go on through life in a state of "unforgiveness" (it's called holding a grudge in the common vernacular), and leave your self open to self destructive bitterness. Forgiveness is not just about the one being forgiven. Forgiveness is also about the healing of the one doing the forgiving.
Jesus forgave his murderers and yet they still mocked him until the end.
"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds". Hebrews
Yes, I prefer to consider him, and follow after him who forgave those who mocked him beat him, spit in his face, tortured him physically, "made sport of him", pounded a crown of thorns on his head (into his head) and then nailed his bloodied near corpse to the cross and further mocked him. And he goes on to say; Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
Well, that's good enough for me. Why not for some of you? As Chatty Kathy used to say around here, "some of you here have spent more time revisiting The Way (and have it still swirling about in your head!) than the time you actually spent in The Way!"
Look none of us have endured anything near what our Lord Jesus Christ endured. And he was INNOCENT! We, on the other hand are/were not innocent. We, who gleefully went about snorkeling in the cess pools of sin and iniquity without a trace of guilt for many of us were far from innocent. But Jesus was actually and entirely innocent and he forgave those who hurt hi, who wronged him.
Therefore it behooves us even more to follow his example and forgive those who have trespassed against us. Shoot, LCM tried to seduce my wife when he was married and she single. She nailed him with "It Is Written", and he backed off. He's never apologized to her, but she has forgiven him. As have I. I would never trust him again, but I forgive him...
So a topic that often comes up in conjunction with this website is "forgiveness". The accusation being, people on this site don't "walk in forgiveness". So I thought I'd start a query into that, by discovering if somewhere the BOD of TWI has asked for forgiveness and I've just missed it.
Did they (VP, etc.) ask for forgiveness when they were alive?
Has the current BOD/BOT asked for forgiveness?
The question is not whether you forgive them or not. The question is whether they have ever acknowledged their wrong doings. (ie: sought forgiveness.)
Wierwille (former BOD member) could have said, "I'm sorry." thousands of times over. He had ample opportunity. Instead, he chose to say things like, "Take off your clothes, honey, I'll show you what's good about being alive."
Martindale did apologize to my wife in a letter, and, he asked her to forgive him. BUT, he also said that he "didn't really live his life that way". Which of course was pretty lame to try and qualify his apology. But he did seem contrite, and she was never shunned because of it, or given "bad assignments" because she turned him down. In fact, he was always extra polite to her after that. They are both fellow Oklahomans, and she knew him when he was a "new guy". And when I married her, he was extra friendly to me because of their friendship. But, he was probably just trying to "cover his bases" by being nice and wanting her to think that he didn't do those things normally and that it was just a one time "near slip".
But, on the subject of forgiveness, I forgive them all regardless of no apologies. Now, I myself have made some apologies to some whom I may have hurt as a Way leader. I never sexually abused anyone as a single Way leader, but, particularly on my interim year in North Dakota, I was a bit "gung ho" and obnoxious. I don't apologize for teaching Way doctrine though, because I don't think that it was all that "ebil" like many here who do...
Okay. So, if the offender is dead, and cannot apologize, then, forgiveness must not be given. VP, HW, EO, and DDW are all dead. Even if they wanted to request your forgiveness after an apology, they cannot do it, and according to your doctrine, you are not allowed to forgive and therefore you must go on through life in a state of "unforgiveness" (it's called holding a grudge in the common vernacular), and leave your self open to self destructive bitterness. Forgiveness is not just about the one being forgiven. Forgiveness is also about the healing of the one doing the forgiving.
I disagree with your assessment of "living in a state of unforgiveness" or holding a grudge. If you cannot call good good and evil evil then there is absolutely no standard for truth. Under your philosophy what distinction is there between them and those that do good towards me over the course of years? None at all. This is not holding a grudge - it is simply calling good good and evil evil. And expecting people to live up to the standard they profess with their mouth.
I have healed up just fine without needing to play the victim and excuse the behavior of abusers.
Jesus forgave his murderers and yet they still mocked him until the end.
"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
Jesus also was accomplishing the goal of saving mankind. But what you say is only partially true - the ones he was asking forgiveness for were those who did not understand what they were doing. Not the Pharisees who orchestrated the murder.
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds". Hebrews
Yes, I prefer to consider him, and follow after him who forgave those who mocked him beat him, spit in his face, tortured him physically, "made sport of him", pounded a crown of thorns on his head (into his head) and then nailed his bloodied near corpse to the cross and further mocked him. And he goes on to say; Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
I also look to his example for the strength to move on and heal in the face of abuse.
Well, that's good enough for me. Why not for some of you? As Chatty Kathy used to say around here, "some of you here have spent more time revisiting The Way (and have it still swirling about in your head!) than the time you actually spent in The Way!"
Part of the purpose of the time I spend revisiting the way is to ensure that abusers to not get away with it but that the truth about their actions aer exposed. Why are you judging me in this? To forgive abusers on one hand but to judge victims on the other is hypocrisy.
Look none of us have endured anything near what our Lord Jesus Christ endured. And he was INNOCENT! We, on the other hand are/were not innocent. We, who gleefully went about snorkeling in the cess pools of sin and iniquity without a trace of guilt for many of us were far from innocent. But Jesus was actually and entirely innocent and he forgave those who hurt hi, who wronged him.
I agree with every part about this except using it to judge others.
Therefore it behooves us even more to follow his example and forgive those who have trespassed against us. Shoot, LCM tried to seduce my wife when he was married and she single. She nailed him with "It Is Written", and he backed off. He's never apologized to her, but she has forgiven him. As have I. I would never trust him again, but I forgive him...
Well here is something to consider. Very clearly those who spoke up about issues like this, like Paul Allen, January Barnes, and others in doing so have prevented him from having other victims. On the other hand, what if those individuals just "forgave him" and moved on, never bringing it up again? That would be enabling the abuser. He would have and did move on to abuse other women. Quite obviously at least now it's very apparent that what he said in the letter is a lie about not living that way. If people are going to act like "the man of God for our day and time", but lie and abuse people, they should be exposed.
I am not faulting you or your wife for not doing that at the moment. Many times the personal cost of exposing someone like that is high.
My wife wasn't my wife at that time. I learned of it after the collapse of Way One. We were gone by then. And, when it happened to her, she really, at the time thought of it as an isolated incident, and didn't realize that it was an insidious sickness that Martindale was practicing. Had she known the extent of it, believe me, she would have really sounded off. That woman of mine is no piker whenb it comes to "gettin in faces"! Just ask all the teachers and principals our kids have had! Hah! Yeah, she's a toughy, but she just thought it was a one time weakness thing back in 1978. Martindale was only the WC Director back then, not the Prez.
And yes, Jesus was in the process of procuring our salvation, but who are you to say just exactly whom he was forgiving when he said that? How do you know that the pharisees were not included in that statement? I think that even if the pharisees "knew what they were doing", they really did NOT know what they were really doing. Because, they were deceived by Satan. They actually believed that they were doing the right thing. I mean, come on: If people who deceive others actually KNOW that they are doing the bidding of the GOD OF THIS WORLD, do you think they would continue? I doubt it. I seriously doubt that at all...
Anyway, have a great rest of the weekend. Peace out... :)
In answer to the original question, have I ever received an apology? Absolutely not. They apparently feel that they do not owe one. Rather instead, I have heard all kinds of excuses as to why it isn`t necessary.
An undeniable indication that they just don`t care what they have done, an unbelievable lack of simple common decency or even basic understanding of Christian principle or responsibility.
In telling people that they ought to forgive, it makes the damage perpetrated someone elses problem. No big deal, if the victim forgives, it`s all fixed pretty, wiped away, hidden from view...The perpetrators are free to present their shiny clean faces and clear consciences to the world.
I have to agree with Ham, the lack of empathy, compassion not to mention down right common decency would be a strong indicator that these people never really were our brothers and sister :)
Forgive them?? Not freaking likely. I don`t think it even advisable.
seems only the almighty has that kind of authority..
the only reasonable or fair way of doing that would be to provide restitution for the wronged first.
what if all they want isn't eternal pie in the sky, but a small, insignificant return of their time and money, and some their youth and innocence?
seems the almighty should be able to perform this lesser task as well..
They cannot restore what was taken or mitigate the damage wrought in s many cases. What they could do is at least recognize the devastation, maybe even grieve with us over what was destroyed :(
I think that the total disassociation from ones responsibility might even fall under the description of *conscience seared with a hot iron* Pretend that it isn`t their problem bury themselves in word studies, believing that their knowlege and busy work makes them spiritual, that what they do is important to God.
Leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Matthew 5:44-45
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Whether anyone here forgives anyone else for anything is up to them, the words of Jesus speak for themselves. I believe that forgiveness, including our ourselves and others is the foundation of following The Way of Jesus Christ. Difficult? Yes. Needed? Yes.
Apologies? Stick 'em where the sun don't shine, I want none. You can grovel before God Almighty if that be the desire, not me.
In the end we all stand to get what's coming to us, in this life and the next. If we don't we can be thankful that we're spared the worst of what life can offer. If we receive it we join the ranks of the millions for whom life itself is a burden with no relief until it's over.
If we can offer the smallest of grace to others it bodes well for us, that we may receive at the least that and if more? God be praised.
To forgive may indeed be divine - in these graceless times it's in short supply so for all those who don't and won't you're right in there in the norm.
Not to worry - I forgive you and if you should stand alone one day with no one to speak for you I will. Dare I ask - do the same for me - that had I known as I am known I would have done better.
Leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Matthew 5:44-45
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Whether anyone here forgives anyone else for anything is up to them, the words of Jesus speak for themselves. I believe that forgiveness, including our ourselves and others is the foundation of following The Way of Jesus Christ. Difficult? Yes. Needed? Yes.
Apologies? Stick 'em where the sun don't shine, I want none. You can grovel before God Almighty if that be the desire, not me.
In the end we all stand to get what's coming to us, in this life and the next. If we don't we can be thankful that we're spared the worst of what life can offer. If we receive it we join the ranks of the millions for whom life itself is a burden with no relief until it's over.
If we can offer the smallest of grace to others it bodes well for us, that we may receive at the least that and if more? God be praised.
To forgive may indeed be divine - in these graceless times it's in short supply so for all those who don't and won't you're right in there in the norm.
Not to worry - I forgive you and if you should stand alone one day with no one to speak for you I will. Dare I ask - do the same for me - that had I known as I am known I would have done better.
Well said, socks ! I figure not forgiving is like me drinking the poison and hoping they die. Whomever "they" are; I guess twi in this case.
God tells me forgive and by dang I'm gonna. Forget, never in a gabazillion years. Allow things to repeat themselves again, ditto.
Edited to add that if another doesn't want to forgive, I'm not concerned about it. I'm only responsible for me and I choose to forgive, get rid of the shi+ and keep moving, even if it's only in circles, so long as whomever offended, hurt, etc., isn't still hanging on.
I'm long enough out of WayWorld that the idea of "forgiveness" never even enters my mind anymore. Do I hold a grudge against the organization? I don't think so. Have I forgiven them? I don't think so there, either. It would be like holding a grudge against the dog that bit you, or the tree branch that fell on you, or maybe the rock that you stubbed your toe on.
None of those things do you any good, but the idea of "forgiving" or holding a grudge against them just doesn't seem relevant. They're a group of conartists - or the victims of same - that you happened to run into. Hopefully you've recovered most of what they scammed out of you, but you'll never get "even" with 'em. Like all the money wasted on lottery tickets, the only way to really benefit from it now, is to vow to never do that again. Angst about who's to blame, or how badly you were hurt makes pretty thin soup...
Socksness, that's the most clear, succinct argument for forgiveness I've seen posted in these forums in all the years I've been around here.
For those who no longer consider the words of Jesus valid or applicable to their lives, I guess they "pays their money and they takes their chances," but for those who still profess to be Christians, I don't see any way around it. The Man says forgive. Period. No, "except when..." or "unless you don't want to" clauses are stuck in there. If anyone ever had the right not to forgive, he certainly did, so when he speaks on this subject, I think it behooves us to take heed.
And you're so right. Each of us has to own up to our own shortcomings, both in this life and the next. The final justice is in God's hands. My forgiving someone doesn't mean that person is off the hook with Him, and He knows things (oh, so many things!) that I don't have a clue about, so I figure He's the best judge.
Leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
would it just be fair to simply realize they are not "brethren" and leave it at that? I mean.. that's kind of given at this point. Maybe that's all the closure one can have..
am I looking for apologies, from THEM? not really. they do what they do.. they are what they are.. what they are will never allow them to apologize, for anything. They can't mourn.. or be repentant.. its not in their nature..
kinda like a bear.. you just happened to be between it and food, or it thought you were food..
Christian? I don't think so.. they are more to be compared to brute beasts..
now I don't hold a grudge against ALL bears. Most of them haven't maimed me or something..
forgive the bear?
I've seen interviews of people who were attacked by bears..
the superior mind tries to figure out why they were attacked.. and the frequent reason was that they just happened to be there..
I think an equivalent question might be.. can you forgive the bear..
understand, perhaps. But forgive? I dunno..
I haven't seen any mandates from Jesus lately, demanding forgiveness to bears for bear attacks..
No, they aren't "christian". Please don't read bitterness here. There is none..
I don't anticipate at whatever eternal reward I'm supposed to recieve..
"and thou, slothful servant, whomst held a grudge against mindless attacks of wild beats and vermin.."
j.l... I just don't see it..
just a side note. What does society do with an animal that trespasses in the land of humans and kills and maims?
just a thought..
I haven't seen negotiations or forgiveness or anything..
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Keith
Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard, Jesus forgave those who crucified him and they obvi
chockfull
To me it is not a moot point. I think scripture is pretty clear that if we confess our sins, He is able and willing to forgive sins. That's our relationship with our Heavenly Father. Now I'm not ge
shortfuse
My $.02 on the original question without having really digested all the discussion that followed. My parents used to have mad file cabinets full of way stuff growing up. At some point they had this
Broken Arrow
This was written in response to a post that I made that said in part, Forgiveness says "it's not okay, what you did was terrible, but I'm tearing up the bill you owe me. This is no longer in my hands, I seek no revenge."
You make an excellent point. Yes, I think you're right, I don't "tear up the bill" as if there were no wrong committed. I hand the bill over to God and no longer personally pursue collecting upon it. An important distinction indeed. It's still forgiving, though, and not excusing, as if everything were o.k.
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rascal
Guess If you want to use the bible as a standard, I read where God apparently requires repentance and us actually asking before HE forgives, never simply as a matter of course or to make himself feel better.
Maybe Jesus` prayers for those that crucified him were to avert the consequences of their actions because they didn`t know what they were doing....
In direct contrast, the board of twi is fully aware of the immorality and consequences of their despicable behavior.
Kind of like the pharacees that preyed on people in God`s name....Jesus certainly didn`t tell us to pray for THEM...He was down right ....ed.
Folks can forgive if they want, but I think a line is crossed when it is claimed that is what God expects of us without the prerequisit of repentance and asking.
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ClayJay
Here we go again...
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Ham
maybe.. but then again, maybe it depends on how you define "we".
Maybe the worst thing they did.. call themselves our (or my) brethren. Forgive them? I don't know if one even can- they've proven to my satisfaction that they are not my brethren.. more like they are proven deceivers.
It would be like a community trying to forgive a serial killer or something..
why is it when one rubs a little veneer of the bible on a godless organization, things are supposed to so different?
They, rosie, the donster, et. al.. are spiritual serial killers.. they simply perform a function of what they are.
no, I'll never get the time back, nor the money. It's like the thought of collecting social security in about ten years or so..
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Broken Arrow
Now that's funny!
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rascal
Too true Mr.. Ham :)
Scriptures also say that God claims vengeance is his,and that he will repay....That doesn`t sound very forgiving to me. Is God going to cut them some slack for the evil perpetrated just because I decide to forgive them?? Where is repentance in there? Where is the accountability?
Seems rather presumptuous to think that I have any business in even considering forgiving these guys for the evil they personally committed in the name of God.
Not my call really, that is between them and God. I am still madder than hell at what they did in God`s name though.
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ClayJay
Okay. So, if the offender is dead, and cannot apologize, then, forgiveness must not be given. VP, HW, EO, and DDW are all dead. Even if they wanted to request your forgiveness after an apology, they cannot do it, and according to your doctrine, you are not allowed to forgive and therefore you must go on through life in a state of "unforgiveness" (it's called holding a grudge in the common vernacular), and leave your self open to self destructive bitterness. Forgiveness is not just about the one being forgiven. Forgiveness is also about the healing of the one doing the forgiving.
Jesus forgave his murderers and yet they still mocked him until the end.
"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds". Hebrews
Yes, I prefer to consider him, and follow after him who forgave those who mocked him beat him, spit in his face, tortured him physically, "made sport of him", pounded a crown of thorns on his head (into his head) and then nailed his bloodied near corpse to the cross and further mocked him. And he goes on to say; Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."
Well, that's good enough for me. Why not for some of you? As Chatty Kathy used to say around here, "some of you here have spent more time revisiting The Way (and have it still swirling about in your head!) than the time you actually spent in The Way!"
Look none of us have endured anything near what our Lord Jesus Christ endured. And he was INNOCENT! We, on the other hand are/were not innocent. We, who gleefully went about snorkeling in the cess pools of sin and iniquity without a trace of guilt for many of us were far from innocent. But Jesus was actually and entirely innocent and he forgave those who hurt hi, who wronged him.
Therefore it behooves us even more to follow his example and forgive those who have trespassed against us. Shoot, LCM tried to seduce my wife when he was married and she single. She nailed him with "It Is Written", and he backed off. He's never apologized to her, but she has forgiven him. As have I. I would never trust him again, but I forgive him...
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waysider
Here is the original post:
So a topic that often comes up in conjunction with this website is "forgiveness". The accusation being, people on this site don't "walk in forgiveness". So I thought I'd start a query into that, by discovering if somewhere the BOD of TWI has asked for forgiveness and I've just missed it.
Did they (VP, etc.) ask for forgiveness when they were alive?
Has the current BOD/BOT asked for forgiveness?
The question is not whether you forgive them or not. The question is whether they have ever acknowledged their wrong doings. (ie: sought forgiveness.)
It's been my experience that they never have.
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Ham
that's the whole point, isn't it?
:)
so apparently, we don't let the offender go entirely free, do we?
And as per Waysider's suggestion, my answer here is
"no. They have never asked me to forgive them for stealing my time and money, allowing my sisters in the church to be pillaged and raped and worse."
In fact, I can't think of a single time they've even admitted to anything like this, while not being bound to tell da truth under oath..
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waysider
Wierwille (former BOD member) could have said, "I'm sorry." thousands of times over. He had ample opportunity. Instead, he chose to say things like, "Take off your clothes, honey, I'll show you what's good about being alive."
as quoted from Losing The Way.
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ClayJay
Martindale did apologize to my wife in a letter, and, he asked her to forgive him. BUT, he also said that he "didn't really live his life that way". Which of course was pretty lame to try and qualify his apology. But he did seem contrite, and she was never shunned because of it, or given "bad assignments" because she turned him down. In fact, he was always extra polite to her after that. They are both fellow Oklahomans, and she knew him when he was a "new guy". And when I married her, he was extra friendly to me because of their friendship. But, he was probably just trying to "cover his bases" by being nice and wanting her to think that he didn't do those things normally and that it was just a one time "near slip".
But, on the subject of forgiveness, I forgive them all regardless of no apologies. Now, I myself have made some apologies to some whom I may have hurt as a Way leader. I never sexually abused anyone as a single Way leader, but, particularly on my interim year in North Dakota, I was a bit "gung ho" and obnoxious. I don't apologize for teaching Way doctrine though, because I don't think that it was all that "ebil" like many here who do...
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Ham
but can you "forgive" on the behalf of others?
seems only the almighty has that kind of authority..
the only reasonable or fair way of doing that would be to provide restitution for the wronged first.
what if all they want isn't eternal pie in the sky, but a small, insignificant return of their time and money, and some their youth and innocence?
seems the almighty should be able to perform this lesser task as well..
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chockfull
I disagree with your assessment of "living in a state of unforgiveness" or holding a grudge. If you cannot call good good and evil evil then there is absolutely no standard for truth. Under your philosophy what distinction is there between them and those that do good towards me over the course of years? None at all. This is not holding a grudge - it is simply calling good good and evil evil. And expecting people to live up to the standard they profess with their mouth.
I have healed up just fine without needing to play the victim and excuse the behavior of abusers.
Jesus also was accomplishing the goal of saving mankind. But what you say is only partially true - the ones he was asking forgiveness for were those who did not understand what they were doing. Not the Pharisees who orchestrated the murder.
I also look to his example for the strength to move on and heal in the face of abuse.
Part of the purpose of the time I spend revisiting the way is to ensure that abusers to not get away with it but that the truth about their actions aer exposed. Why are you judging me in this? To forgive abusers on one hand but to judge victims on the other is hypocrisy.
I agree with every part about this except using it to judge others.
Well here is something to consider. Very clearly those who spoke up about issues like this, like Paul Allen, January Barnes, and others in doing so have prevented him from having other victims. On the other hand, what if those individuals just "forgave him" and moved on, never bringing it up again? That would be enabling the abuser. He would have and did move on to abuse other women. Quite obviously at least now it's very apparent that what he said in the letter is a lie about not living that way. If people are going to act like "the man of God for our day and time", but lie and abuse people, they should be exposed.
I am not faulting you or your wife for not doing that at the moment. Many times the personal cost of exposing someone like that is high.
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ClayJay
My wife wasn't my wife at that time. I learned of it after the collapse of Way One. We were gone by then. And, when it happened to her, she really, at the time thought of it as an isolated incident, and didn't realize that it was an insidious sickness that Martindale was practicing. Had she known the extent of it, believe me, she would have really sounded off. That woman of mine is no piker whenb it comes to "gettin in faces"! Just ask all the teachers and principals our kids have had! Hah! Yeah, she's a toughy, but she just thought it was a one time weakness thing back in 1978. Martindale was only the WC Director back then, not the Prez.
And yes, Jesus was in the process of procuring our salvation, but who are you to say just exactly whom he was forgiving when he said that? How do you know that the pharisees were not included in that statement? I think that even if the pharisees "knew what they were doing", they really did NOT know what they were really doing. Because, they were deceived by Satan. They actually believed that they were doing the right thing. I mean, come on: If people who deceive others actually KNOW that they are doing the bidding of the GOD OF THIS WORLD, do you think they would continue? I doubt it. I seriously doubt that at all...
Anyway, have a great rest of the weekend. Peace out...
:)
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rascal
In answer to the original question, have I ever received an apology? Absolutely not. They apparently feel that they do not owe one. Rather instead, I have heard all kinds of excuses as to why it isn`t necessary.
An undeniable indication that they just don`t care what they have done, an unbelievable lack of simple common decency or even basic understanding of Christian principle or responsibility.
In telling people that they ought to forgive, it makes the damage perpetrated someone elses problem. No big deal, if the victim forgives, it`s all fixed pretty, wiped away, hidden from view...The perpetrators are free to present their shiny clean faces and clear consciences to the world.
I have to agree with Ham, the lack of empathy, compassion not to mention down right common decency would be a strong indicator that these people never really were our brothers and sister :)
Forgive them?? Not freaking likely. I don`t think it even advisable.
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rascal
They cannot restore what was taken or mitigate the damage wrought in s many cases. What they could do is at least recognize the devastation, maybe even grieve with us over what was destroyed :(
I think that the total disassociation from ones responsibility might even fall under the description of *conscience seared with a hot iron* Pretend that it isn`t their problem bury themselves in word studies, believing that their knowlege and busy work makes them spiritual, that what they do is important to God.
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ClayJay
Then you disobey Jesus.
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socks
Lessons in Living:
Matthew 5:24
Leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Matthew 5:44-45
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Luke 23:34
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Whether anyone here forgives anyone else for anything is up to them, the words of Jesus speak for themselves. I believe that forgiveness, including our ourselves and others is the foundation of following The Way of Jesus Christ. Difficult? Yes. Needed? Yes.
Apologies? Stick 'em where the sun don't shine, I want none. You can grovel before God Almighty if that be the desire, not me.
In the end we all stand to get what's coming to us, in this life and the next. If we don't we can be thankful that we're spared the worst of what life can offer. If we receive it we join the ranks of the millions for whom life itself is a burden with no relief until it's over.
If we can offer the smallest of grace to others it bodes well for us, that we may receive at the least that and if more? God be praised.
To forgive may indeed be divine - in these graceless times it's in short supply so for all those who don't and won't you're right in there in the norm.
Not to worry - I forgive you and if you should stand alone one day with no one to speak for you I will. Dare I ask - do the same for me - that had I known as I am known I would have done better.
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Shellon
Well said, socks ! I figure not forgiving is like me drinking the poison and hoping they die. Whomever "they" are; I guess twi in this case.
God tells me forgive and by dang I'm gonna. Forget, never in a gabazillion years. Allow things to repeat themselves again, ditto.
Edited to add that if another doesn't want to forgive, I'm not concerned about it. I'm only responsible for me and I choose to forgive, get rid of the shi+ and keep moving, even if it's only in circles, so long as whomever offended, hurt, etc., isn't still hanging on.
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George Aar
I'm long enough out of WayWorld that the idea of "forgiveness" never even enters my mind anymore. Do I hold a grudge against the organization? I don't think so. Have I forgiven them? I don't think so there, either. It would be like holding a grudge against the dog that bit you, or the tree branch that fell on you, or maybe the rock that you stubbed your toe on.
None of those things do you any good, but the idea of "forgiving" or holding a grudge against them just doesn't seem relevant. They're a group of conartists - or the victims of same - that you happened to run into. Hopefully you've recovered most of what they scammed out of you, but you'll never get "even" with 'em. Like all the money wasted on lottery tickets, the only way to really benefit from it now, is to vow to never do that again. Angst about who's to blame, or how badly you were hurt makes pretty thin soup...
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Linda Z
Socksness, that's the most clear, succinct argument for forgiveness I've seen posted in these forums in all the years I've been around here.
For those who no longer consider the words of Jesus valid or applicable to their lives, I guess they "pays their money and they takes their chances," but for those who still profess to be Christians, I don't see any way around it. The Man says forgive. Period. No, "except when..." or "unless you don't want to" clauses are stuck in there. If anyone ever had the right not to forgive, he certainly did, so when he speaks on this subject, I think it behooves us to take heed.
And you're so right. Each of us has to own up to our own shortcomings, both in this life and the next. The final justice is in God's hands. My forgiving someone doesn't mean that person is off the hook with Him, and He knows things (oh, so many things!) that I don't have a clue about, so I figure He's the best judge.
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Ham
would it just be fair to simply realize they are not "brethren" and leave it at that? I mean.. that's kind of given at this point. Maybe that's all the closure one can have..
am I looking for apologies, from THEM? not really. they do what they do.. they are what they are.. what they are will never allow them to apologize, for anything. They can't mourn.. or be repentant.. its not in their nature..
kinda like a bear.. you just happened to be between it and food, or it thought you were food..
Christian? I don't think so.. they are more to be compared to brute beasts..
now I don't hold a grudge against ALL bears. Most of them haven't maimed me or something..
forgive the bear?
I've seen interviews of people who were attacked by bears..
the superior mind tries to figure out why they were attacked.. and the frequent reason was that they just happened to be there..
I think an equivalent question might be.. can you forgive the bear..
understand, perhaps. But forgive? I dunno..
I haven't seen any mandates from Jesus lately, demanding forgiveness to bears for bear attacks..
No, they aren't "christian". Please don't read bitterness here. There is none..
I don't anticipate at whatever eternal reward I'm supposed to recieve..
"and thou, slothful servant, whomst held a grudge against mindless attacks of wild beats and vermin.."
j.l... I just don't see it..
just a side note. What does society do with an animal that trespasses in the land of humans and kills and maims?
just a thought..
I haven't seen negotiations or forgiveness or anything..
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waysider
Once again, the question was not whether you have forgiven them. The question is whether they have ever apologized.
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Ham
kinda like an animal that has acquired a taste for human blood..
I really don't see any difference between this, and those who run the organization..
I think there is a reference in the old testament.. how difficult is is to "handle" those of "their type"..
and, in conclusion..
no, they have not asked for forgiveness. From me, or anyone I know.. for ANYTHING. Ever. Neither do I expect it..
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