Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard, Jesus forgave those who crucified him and they obviously didn't ask for forgivness. Same with Stephen when he was stoned.
But we must also not confuse forgivness with Justificaton. I could forgive someone for killing my wife, but if justice is served they will still do the time. And it doesn't mean that I not admit that the killing took place and that they did it. Just that I forgive them for it. Perhaps a better example, I can forgive you for wrecking my car if I loaned it to you. You will still have to deal with the following. You most likely will have to walk home, or wait for some one to get you after the wreck. You will most likely have to deal with all of the insurance issues. You may have to pay fines ect. And the odds are, I'm not going to let you borrow my car again. If you were a child molester and I were a former victim, I might forgive you, but that doesn't mean I will spend time with you, and I might have to inform others about you for your saftey.
Unforgivness is really a form of bitterness and anger and it usally hurts you more than them, because they don't really care whether you forgive them or not.
Thinking in terms of twi's bod asking for forgiveness is almost an oxymoron.
I make no assumptions whatsoever that these people even care...or are even Christians
...or for that matter, are even sane. When I consider the very nature of this organization...
can good fruit grow from a bad tree? Perhaps it would be more "biblical" to quote the words of Jesus when he confronted the counterfeit religious leaders..."Ye are of your father, the devil"
The fact is...whatever they did to me personally is water under the bridge...After 13 years,
I walked away on my own...never looked back. I knew they were wrong and that was that.
The reason I still post after all this time is because they still exist...I am simply providing another "opinion" of what people are getting themselves involved with.
This is all about money, lifestyles and keeping the trains running on time...if they are reducedm to having no more than 7 followers...they will continue...why? because they need to meet the requirments of the IRS to maintain their tax exempt status and live off of the assets.
forgiveness?...they have not repented nor will they...they need to be shut down...not forgiven
Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard, Jesus forgave those who crucified him and they obviously didn't ask for forgivness. Same with Stephen when he was stoned.
But we must also not confuse forgivness with Justificaton. I could forgive someone for killing my wife, but if justice is served they will still do the time. And it doesn't mean that I not admit that the killing took place and that they did it. Just that I forgive them for it. Perhaps a better example, I can forgive you for wrecking my car if I loaned it to you. You will still have to deal with the following. You most likely will have to walk home, or wait for some one to get you after the wreck. You will most likely have to deal with all of the insurance issues. You may have to pay fines ect. And the odds are, I'm not going to let you borrow my car again. If you were a child molester and I were a former victim, I might forgive you, but that doesn't mean I will spend time with you, and I might have to inform others about you for your saftey.
Unforgivness is really a form of bitterness and anger and it usally hurts you more than them, because they don't really care whether you forgive them or not.
To me it is not a moot point. I think scripture is pretty clear that if we confess our sins, He is able and willing to forgive sins. That's our relationship with our Heavenly Father. Now I'm not getting hooked up in semantics whether we need to individually account for them or not. But the premise is that we are asking for forgiveness because we are sorry about our behavior. We ask, He grants.
In human relationships this also is a key factor. Those who unrepentingly treat other humans with impunity do not ask for or receive forgiveness from other human beings. Forgiveness among humans is a two-sided contract.
Jesus and Stephen I look on as a special case. IMO they are forgiving the mob - the pawns that were swept up in the game played by the manipulating Pharisees who orchestrated their deaths. They forgave the individuals involved IMO on the premise that later on when they were not swept up in the passion of the moment they would repent. Remember their words at the moment - "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". IMO this definitely is NOT addressed to cover the Pharisees who orchestrated their deaths - they very much knew what they were doing. The Pharisees will answer at a later date for the hardness of their hearts and their actions which consisted of conspiring to commit murder.
I completely disagree that "unforgiveness", whatever that term means, is a form of bitterness and anger. To me not forgiving those who have treated me with impunity and unrepentingly wronged me in the past (such as TWI's BOD) is simply that there is no contract in place - no asking for forgiveness, and no granting forgiveness. I am not bitter any more towards them or angry - I am moving on with my life. But with respect to forgiving people, I simply note their behavior and whether or not they are repentant of it. And I document that fact. If people are behaving in that fashion to a large number of other people as well, then I feel it is probably worth warning others about it.
But to me it is funny how people use the topic of forgiveness to excuse the unrepentant evildoers who treat others with impunity and to blame those who simply note that fact and behavior as the ones with a problem. That type of thing to me is being an enabler to evildoers and helps to propogate the abuser / victim relationship behavior cycle.
I am not bitter any more towards them or angry - I am moving on with my life.
But to me it is funny how people use the topic of forgiveness to excuse the unrepentant evildoers who treat others with impunity and to blame those who simply note that fact and behavior as the ones with a problem. That type of thing to me is being an enabler to evildoers and helps to propogate the abuser / victim relationship behavior cycle.
I completely understand where you are coming from, trust me. If you are not bitter or angry, and I'll add not seeking revenge. If you are not waiting for them to repay you for the wrong they have committed against you, then you have, in fact, forgiven them. That's all forgiveness is, it is a letting go of expecting repayment. It's a tearing up of a debt owed to you. It is leaving them in the care of God, or higher power, (or whatever you believe) trusting that God is just, and will deal with them accordingly. It is a very very powerful weapon.
It is not "excusing unrepentant evildoers". Quite the contrary. Forgiveness says "it's not okay, what you did was terrible, but I'm tearing up the bill you owe me. This is no longer in my hands, I seek no revenge."
You're right that excusing evil behavior enables evildoers and helps propogate the abuser/victim relationship. Excusing and forgiving are two different things. Forgiving and reconciling are also 2 different things. If I have a relative who abused me in the past, I may forgive them. That is, I'm not holding any ill will against them, but darned if I'm going to let them watch my kids.
I believe you also said, or someone said, that telling the truth about someone and about what they did is not unforgiveness. It is telling the truth. That's true as well and in some cases it is necessary to inform others about actions a person may take. Again, that is a separate issue from forgiveness.
You're right that excusing evil behavior enables evildoers and helps propogate the abuser/victim relationship. Excusing and forgiving are two different things. Forgiving and reconciling are also 2 different things. If I have a relative who abused me in the past, I may forgive them. That is, I'm not holding any ill will against them, but darned if I'm going to let them watch my kids.
Thanks for the note.
I'm not so sure about your statement that excusing and forgiving are two different things. In common language, to forgive a debt is the same as to excuse a debt. And then there's the John 20:23 record regarding the remitting and retaining of sins. Remitting there is the same word as forgive in the NT.
IMO abusers by virtue of the unrepentant behavior have sins that are retained. However, it is not me that holds the paper on those sins, it is God. That's where the "vengeance is mine I will repay" scripture comes in.
We're talking around the same concepts though. We need to hold abusers accountable but not allow their behavior to encompass our lives. Living well is the best revenge. God will take care of the rest.
So far voting is unaninimous. It seems pretty clear that the BOD of TWI displays unrepentant behavior, despite the trail of bodies behind them they have slandered, marked and avoided, blackballed, ruined, probationed, etc. God will deal with them in His time.
I totally agree with Keith. Not forgiving someone just eats YOU alive, and does nothing to hurt them. In the case of TWI, they probably even feel justified for how they treated us ... considering us little more than infidels. God is a God of justice and he keeps a good score.
...it is not me that holds the paper on those sins, it is God. That's where the "vengeance is mine I will repay" scripture comes in.
We're talking around the same concepts though. We need to hold abusers accountable but not allow their behavior to encompass our lives. Living well is the best revenge. God will take care of the rest.
What you say in this quote is, in my opinion, what forgiveness is. I think we just disagree on semantics.
I have never seen forgiveness as excusing something. Our covenant relationship with God includes his cleasing us of all unrighteousness when we ask for forgivness. But forgivness, in this case, is something that I do. Your asking for forgivness is something you do, and by doing so you receive my forgiveness. From what I understand the board has never asked for forgiveness so while I may forgive them, they have not received my forgiveness. Most likely they have not asked forgiveness from God so I doubt that they have recevied it from Him either. Asking for forgiveness includes the idea of repentance and desire to change what you are doing. As far as I can tell, through Christ everyone has been forgiven, but we don't get the results for that forgiveness until we accept Christ and ask for it. Until then it's like being given a ticket for a train, but refusing to take it. You don't get on the train without it.
I can forgive you, but you don't receive my forgiveness until you ask for it.
That said, Language is imperfect, and I think most of us are really thinking the same way.
I'm not so sure about your statement that excusing and forgiving are two different things. In common language, to forgive a debt is the same as to excuse a debt. And then there's the John 20:23 record regarding the remitting and retaining of sins. Remitting there is the same word as forgive in the NT.
As we define forgiveness today I would say your are correct. However I don't think that's the meaning originally. And in regards to a debt, if I tear up the paper for the debt you owe me, I am basicly saying I no longer expect payment from you. My decision. Believe it or not I've had people who I've told to just forget the debt, and they still keep trying to pay me. They have not received my forgiveness of their debt. Their choice.
I'm not sure that the following is really worth anything you can decide. But we have two different definitions of forgiveness being talked about. From what I can see those expecting the need for the Board to ask forgiveness before they forgive them seem to be defining forgiveness as I remember TWI defining. While other's are defining it closer to how most (that I know of) Christian groups define it.
Opening the lid on "the lock box" is not a form of bitterness.
If you are presenting facts, especially to protect others, I don't concider that a form of bitterness or unforgivenss. There is a difference between doing so in anger or bitterness and doing so to provide information and safty to others.
I tend not to say that people are not walking in unforgiveness. I can't judge their heart. But I do know that unforgiveness will eat away at you. Our forgiveness doesn't mean that justice is not or should not be served. From what I can see that decision resides in this world, with the courts, in the next with God.
Unforgiveness is an attitude. I've seen many accounts on this site regarding some very bad things that have happened to people. Some is presented without anger and bitterness. I won't say they are a pleasure to read, but it is these posts that I find most helpful in understanding what went on. And yes, they do sometimes make me angry. Some posts are so full hate and bitterness that it almost burns your eyes to read it. I usally don't find much understanding in these. In fact they sometimes make me doubt what they are saying. If they are recent happenings I understand the anger. However, I find myself concerned for the person when the event happened years ago, and even more, when it was to someone else. It is hard to see the facts through the hate and bitterness.
I read Kris Skedgell's book "Losing the Way". It opened up a lot of things to my understanding, There were a lot feelings expressed, but I didn't sense in it an attitude of unforgiveness. And I don't feel she would want to kill any of the people involved. Which does not mean that I don't think she went through a time when might have thought that way.
There are some people, who when I read their posts, I think if they had half a chance they might literally kill the people they are talking about.
I completely understand where you are coming from, trust me. If you are not bitter or angry, and I'll add not seeking revenge. If you are not waiting for them to repay you for the wrong they have committed against you, then you have, in fact, forgiven them. That's all forgiveness is, it is a letting go of expecting repayment. It's a tearing up of a debt owed to you. It is leaving them in the care of God, or higher power, (or whatever you believe) trusting that God is just, and will deal with them accordingly. It is a very very powerful weapon.
It is not "excusing unrepentant evildoers". Quite the contrary. Forgiveness says "it's not okay, what you did was terrible, but I'm tearing up the bill you owe me. This is no longer in my hands, I seek no revenge."
You're right that excusing evil behavior enables evildoers and helps propogate the abuser/victim relationship. Excusing and forgiving are two different things. Forgiving and reconciling are also 2 different things. If I have a relative who abused me in the past, I may forgive them. That is, I'm not holding any ill will against them, but darned if I'm going to let them watch my kids.
I believe you also said, or someone said, that telling the truth about someone and about what they did is not unforgiveness. It is telling the truth. That's true as well and in some cases it is necessary to inform others about actions a person may take. Again, that is a separate issue from forgiveness.
Forgiveness says "it's not okay, what you did was terrible, but I'm tearing up the bill you owe me. This is no longer in my hands, I seek no revenge."
You see there is a portion of this I do not agree with and I think it is an important distinction. The scripture "vengeance is mine, I will repay" is not this. It is not tearing up the bill you owe me. It is handing the bill you owe me to God. I will no longer pursue personally collecting upon it, as that task could negatively impact my life. I will turn it over to a higher power to deal with and move on.
I think if people get in the habit of tearing up bills when people are continually abusing them that is wrong. It is playing the victim mindset. No, I want the bill collected. I just don't want to burn up my life doing it myself. Abusing people is wrong. It needs to stop. People need to pay for abusing others.
Quite the contrary to actually tendering any kind of apology, I've been told everything from "just get over it" to "that was then, this is now" to "well, we've changed so you are welcome to come back" to "they couldn't possibly track every last person down just to offer an apology to them" .... as reasons for the BOT/BOD doing absolutely nothing!
Chockfull, you have a good point. I don't disagree with it totally. I think the difference is are you seeking payment in terms of justice or bitterness. In the OT wasn't the thief to pay back seven times what was taken. Going back to my over used car example. I may forgive you for wrecking my car, but still expect you to pay for the damage. One is my decision, the other is just, right and proper. Thinking of it as a worse crime, lets say I was abused as a child. I can carry bitterness and anger around and fail to get on with my life or I can forgive them for the abusing me, and get on with my life. But I don't think that precludes making a report of it so justice can be served and for the protection of future children.
Check out this archived thread. Some of the hottest and most tempestuous of conversations happened in this 63 page brouhaha. This young son of a one time Way Staffer came to the GSCafe nearly had his head torn off for asking about forgiving those who had committed the travesties that evolved in The Way from the top leadership on down. I am in that thread as the one time "Jonny Lingo" (I've changed my name now), and, many others including a certain celebrity speak their mind there. The young guy, Nathan Friedly checked out after being treated rather shabbily, in my opinion. But there is lots there about forgiving, and not forgiving. Here. The thread is called "A Note On Forgiving" :
I dunno. I read all that. It seemed to me he wasn't really equipped to provide any real answers.
Like the kid from the sowers thing.. "I'll tell you it all.." and then suddenly had little to say, besides attempting to brush aside (warranted) skepticism..
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Keith
Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard, Jesus forgave those who crucified him and they obvi
chockfull
To me it is not a moot point. I think scripture is pretty clear that if we confess our sins, He is able and willing to forgive sins. That's our relationship with our Heavenly Father. Now I'm not ge
shortfuse
My $.02 on the original question without having really digested all the discussion that followed. My parents used to have mad file cabinets full of way stuff growing up. At some point they had this
OldSkool
I have never heard of them asking forgiveness from anyone. Perhaps as individuals, in private? (never to me - publicly or otherwise.)
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JavaJane
I have searched and searched my memory... and, no. I can't think of one time.
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Keith
Honestly to me whether or not they ask for fogiveness is a moot point. I can forgive if they do, or if they don't. If I use the Bible as standard, Jesus forgave those who crucified him and they obviously didn't ask for forgivness. Same with Stephen when he was stoned.
But we must also not confuse forgivness with Justificaton. I could forgive someone for killing my wife, but if justice is served they will still do the time. And it doesn't mean that I not admit that the killing took place and that they did it. Just that I forgive them for it. Perhaps a better example, I can forgive you for wrecking my car if I loaned it to you. You will still have to deal with the following. You most likely will have to walk home, or wait for some one to get you after the wreck. You will most likely have to deal with all of the insurance issues. You may have to pay fines ect. And the odds are, I'm not going to let you borrow my car again. If you were a child molester and I were a former victim, I might forgive you, but that doesn't mean I will spend time with you, and I might have to inform others about you for your saftey.
Unforgivness is really a form of bitterness and anger and it usally hurts you more than them, because they don't really care whether you forgive them or not.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Thinking in terms of twi's bod asking for forgiveness is almost an oxymoron.
I make no assumptions whatsoever that these people even care...or are even Christians
...or for that matter, are even sane. When I consider the very nature of this organization...
can good fruit grow from a bad tree? Perhaps it would be more "biblical" to quote the words of Jesus when he confronted the counterfeit religious leaders..."Ye are of your father, the devil"
...and isn't THAT the "unforgivable sin"...
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Keith
and if it's a statment of fact, it is not a sign of unforgivness.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The fact is...whatever they did to me personally is water under the bridge...After 13 years,
I walked away on my own...never looked back. I knew they were wrong and that was that.
The reason I still post after all this time is because they still exist...I am simply providing another "opinion" of what people are getting themselves involved with.
This is all about money, lifestyles and keeping the trains running on time...if they are reducedm to having no more than 7 followers...they will continue...why? because they need to meet the requirments of the IRS to maintain their tax exempt status and live off of the assets.
forgiveness?...they have not repented nor will they...they need to be shut down...not forgiven
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chockfull
To me it is not a moot point. I think scripture is pretty clear that if we confess our sins, He is able and willing to forgive sins. That's our relationship with our Heavenly Father. Now I'm not getting hooked up in semantics whether we need to individually account for them or not. But the premise is that we are asking for forgiveness because we are sorry about our behavior. We ask, He grants.
In human relationships this also is a key factor. Those who unrepentingly treat other humans with impunity do not ask for or receive forgiveness from other human beings. Forgiveness among humans is a two-sided contract.
Jesus and Stephen I look on as a special case. IMO they are forgiving the mob - the pawns that were swept up in the game played by the manipulating Pharisees who orchestrated their deaths. They forgave the individuals involved IMO on the premise that later on when they were not swept up in the passion of the moment they would repent. Remember their words at the moment - "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". IMO this definitely is NOT addressed to cover the Pharisees who orchestrated their deaths - they very much knew what they were doing. The Pharisees will answer at a later date for the hardness of their hearts and their actions which consisted of conspiring to commit murder.
I completely disagree that "unforgiveness", whatever that term means, is a form of bitterness and anger. To me not forgiving those who have treated me with impunity and unrepentingly wronged me in the past (such as TWI's BOD) is simply that there is no contract in place - no asking for forgiveness, and no granting forgiveness. I am not bitter any more towards them or angry - I am moving on with my life. But with respect to forgiving people, I simply note their behavior and whether or not they are repentant of it. And I document that fact. If people are behaving in that fashion to a large number of other people as well, then I feel it is probably worth warning others about it.
But to me it is funny how people use the topic of forgiveness to excuse the unrepentant evildoers who treat others with impunity and to blame those who simply note that fact and behavior as the ones with a problem. That type of thing to me is being an enabler to evildoers and helps to propogate the abuser / victim relationship behavior cycle.
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Broken Arrow
I completely understand where you are coming from, trust me. If you are not bitter or angry, and I'll add not seeking revenge. If you are not waiting for them to repay you for the wrong they have committed against you, then you have, in fact, forgiven them. That's all forgiveness is, it is a letting go of expecting repayment. It's a tearing up of a debt owed to you. It is leaving them in the care of God, or higher power, (or whatever you believe) trusting that God is just, and will deal with them accordingly. It is a very very powerful weapon.
It is not "excusing unrepentant evildoers". Quite the contrary. Forgiveness says "it's not okay, what you did was terrible, but I'm tearing up the bill you owe me. This is no longer in my hands, I seek no revenge."
You're right that excusing evil behavior enables evildoers and helps propogate the abuser/victim relationship. Excusing and forgiving are two different things. Forgiving and reconciling are also 2 different things. If I have a relative who abused me in the past, I may forgive them. That is, I'm not holding any ill will against them, but darned if I'm going to let them watch my kids.
I believe you also said, or someone said, that telling the truth about someone and about what they did is not unforgiveness. It is telling the truth. That's true as well and in some cases it is necessary to inform others about actions a person may take. Again, that is a separate issue from forgiveness.
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chockfull
Thanks for the note.
I'm not so sure about your statement that excusing and forgiving are two different things. In common language, to forgive a debt is the same as to excuse a debt. And then there's the John 20:23 record regarding the remitting and retaining of sins. Remitting there is the same word as forgive in the NT.
IMO abusers by virtue of the unrepentant behavior have sins that are retained. However, it is not me that holds the paper on those sins, it is God. That's where the "vengeance is mine I will repay" scripture comes in.
We're talking around the same concepts though. We need to hold abusers accountable but not allow their behavior to encompass our lives. Living well is the best revenge. God will take care of the rest.
So far voting is unaninimous. It seems pretty clear that the BOD of TWI displays unrepentant behavior, despite the trail of bodies behind them they have slandered, marked and avoided, blackballed, ruined, probationed, etc. God will deal with them in His time.
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DogLover
I totally agree with Keith. Not forgiving someone just eats YOU alive, and does nothing to hurt them. In the case of TWI, they probably even feel justified for how they treated us ... considering us little more than infidels. God is a God of justice and he keeps a good score.
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Broken Arrow
What you say in this quote is, in my opinion, what forgiveness is. I think we just disagree on semantics.
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Keith
I have never seen forgiveness as excusing something. Our covenant relationship with God includes his cleasing us of all unrighteousness when we ask for forgivness. But forgivness, in this case, is something that I do. Your asking for forgivness is something you do, and by doing so you receive my forgiveness. From what I understand the board has never asked for forgiveness so while I may forgive them, they have not received my forgiveness. Most likely they have not asked forgiveness from God so I doubt that they have recevied it from Him either. Asking for forgiveness includes the idea of repentance and desire to change what you are doing. As far as I can tell, through Christ everyone has been forgiven, but we don't get the results for that forgiveness until we accept Christ and ask for it. Until then it's like being given a ticket for a train, but refusing to take it. You don't get on the train without it.
I can forgive you, but you don't receive my forgiveness until you ask for it.
That said, Language is imperfect, and I think most of us are really thinking the same way.
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Keith
As we define forgiveness today I would say your are correct. However I don't think that's the meaning originally. And in regards to a debt, if I tear up the paper for the debt you owe me, I am basicly saying I no longer expect payment from you. My decision. Believe it or not I've had people who I've told to just forget the debt, and they still keep trying to pay me. They have not received my forgiveness of their debt. Their choice.
I'm not sure that the following is really worth anything you can decide. But we have two different definitions of forgiveness being talked about. From what I can see those expecting the need for the Board to ask forgiveness before they forgive them seem to be defining forgiveness as I remember TWI defining. While other's are defining it closer to how most (that I know of) Christian groups define it.
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waysider
Opening the lid on "the lock box" is not a form of bitterness.
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Ham
and why is it, some think it is ALWAYS the right thing to do.. to forgive a debt..
debt seems to revolve around "community".
*they* don't think they are *community* anymore..
does that make it so?
They have made themselves "rich in this world"..
I'd consider that section of scripture along with the others about supposed forgiveness..
but then they've proven they are not "brethren". Forgive them? Technically, I don't see the biblical mandate applying here..
it's just a thought. Take it as you will..
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Ham
reminds me of a time in the old testament..
the Eunuchs hanging around that place need to reclaim it..
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Keith
If you are presenting facts, especially to protect others, I don't concider that a form of bitterness or unforgivenss. There is a difference between doing so in anger or bitterness and doing so to provide information and safty to others.
I tend not to say that people are not walking in unforgiveness. I can't judge their heart. But I do know that unforgiveness will eat away at you. Our forgiveness doesn't mean that justice is not or should not be served. From what I can see that decision resides in this world, with the courts, in the next with God.
Unforgiveness is an attitude. I've seen many accounts on this site regarding some very bad things that have happened to people. Some is presented without anger and bitterness. I won't say they are a pleasure to read, but it is these posts that I find most helpful in understanding what went on. And yes, they do sometimes make me angry. Some posts are so full hate and bitterness that it almost burns your eyes to read it. I usally don't find much understanding in these. In fact they sometimes make me doubt what they are saying. If they are recent happenings I understand the anger. However, I find myself concerned for the person when the event happened years ago, and even more, when it was to someone else. It is hard to see the facts through the hate and bitterness.
I read Kris Skedgell's book "Losing the Way". It opened up a lot of things to my understanding, There were a lot feelings expressed, but I didn't sense in it an attitude of unforgiveness. And I don't feel she would want to kill any of the people involved. Which does not mean that I don't think she went through a time when might have thought that way.
There are some people, who when I read their posts, I think if they had half a chance they might literally kill the people they are talking about.
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Keith
Well, said.
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chockfull
You see there is a portion of this I do not agree with and I think it is an important distinction. The scripture "vengeance is mine, I will repay" is not this. It is not tearing up the bill you owe me. It is handing the bill you owe me to God. I will no longer pursue personally collecting upon it, as that task could negatively impact my life. I will turn it over to a higher power to deal with and move on.
I think if people get in the habit of tearing up bills when people are continually abusing them that is wrong. It is playing the victim mindset. No, I want the bill collected. I just don't want to burn up my life doing it myself. Abusing people is wrong. It needs to stop. People need to pay for abusing others.
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TheHighWay
Quite the contrary to actually tendering any kind of apology, I've been told everything from "just get over it" to "that was then, this is now" to "well, we've changed so you are welcome to come back" to "they couldn't possibly track every last person down just to offer an apology to them" .... as reasons for the BOT/BOD doing absolutely nothing!
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Keith
Chockfull, you have a good point. I don't disagree with it totally. I think the difference is are you seeking payment in terms of justice or bitterness. In the OT wasn't the thief to pay back seven times what was taken. Going back to my over used car example. I may forgive you for wrecking my car, but still expect you to pay for the damage. One is my decision, the other is just, right and proper. Thinking of it as a worse crime, lets say I was abused as a child. I can carry bitterness and anger around and fail to get on with my life or I can forgive them for the abusing me, and get on with my life. But I don't think that precludes making a report of it so justice can be served and for the protection of future children.
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ClayJay
Here Chockful.
Check out this archived thread. Some of the hottest and most tempestuous of conversations happened in this 63 page brouhaha. This young son of a one time Way Staffer came to the GSCafe nearly had his head torn off for asking about forgiving those who had committed the travesties that evolved in The Way from the top leadership on down. I am in that thread as the one time "Jonny Lingo" (I've changed my name now), and, many others including a certain celebrity speak their mind there. The young guy, Nathan Friedly checked out after being treated rather shabbily, in my opinion. But there is lots there about forgiving, and not forgiving. Here. The thread is called "A Note On Forgiving" :
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Secret Squirrel
I dunno. I read all that. It seemed to me he wasn't really equipped to provide any real answers.
Like the kid from the sowers thing.. "I'll tell you it all.." and then suddenly had little to say, besides attempting to brush aside (warranted) skepticism..
just seemed to me anyway..
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Ham
and just why is it that I'd agree..
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