Which includes the following bald-faced lie concerning our current President:
"Obama is a man who accumulated academic credentials while giving no evidence whatsoever of achieving any depth. He was the only president of the Harvard Law Review to graduate without penning a signed article in that esteemed journal. His academic transcripts remain under lock and key, as do his academic papers."
Besides saying "We haven't been able to look at his transcripts and his academic papers"
(the last sentence) "but without looking at any of his academic history,
we have concluded his academic credentials show no proof of depth" (the first sentence),
which is obvious nonsense
(how seriously do you take investigations that say
"We have no evidence, so we have made up the following conclusions"?)
It makes several claims:
1) Presidents of the Harvard Law Review pen signed articles.
2) Obama was an exception to the preceeding sentence.
"Bradford Berenson — a lawyer who worked in the Bush White House and served with Obama on the Harvard Law Review",
"As a 2L [second year law] student, Barack wrote the same amount as all of his 2L peers, although by policy of the Harvard Law Review, no student writing is signed or attributed to individual authors. As a 3L, it is true that he did not write, but that is because he was the President of the Review. Because the President does so much editing, including of all the major faculty articles, he is not expected to author original pieces himself and almost never does so."
=====================
Wherever you were going, you didn't need to try to get there by getting into a faulty
article about the current US President. (Unless you were deliberately attempting to take
a shot at the current US President- in which case, you really should have done at least
a minute's fact-checking like I did...it took seconds to correct this....)
So what exactly is the point you're trying to make ?
Wierwille was attributed "greatness" for his written work and sermons.......of which, plagairism was significant.
MLK was attributed "greatness" for his sermons and movement........of which, plagairism is found.
Is this plagairism? Or, is this just part and parcel of any movement?
More clarification on that quote..........Click Here
MLK...."The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."
Theodore Parker....."I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice." (1853)
Now......the Oval Office rug has a quote that can be traced back to the Unitarian minister Theodore Parker from the nineteenth-century.
There are definitely two sides to this allegation of plagairism....
Voice of Deliverance: The Language of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Its Sources [Hardcover]
Keith D. Miller (Author)
Editorial Reviews
From Library Journal
Miller (English, Arizona State) has written a complex, convincing analysis of the sources of King's major sermons and public works. In brief, Miller argues that King borrowed ideas, patterns, words, even whole paragraphs from two main sources: white Protestant ministers' radio sermons and the traditions of the African American folk pulpit. King melded these "borrowings" into consistently powerful sermons for social change. To Miller, this was not plagiarism, but perfectly consistent with the American homiletic tradition. King's ability to reshape old works was his greatest rhetorical strength. Miller's study provides a fascinating counterpoint to recent attacks on King's originality. It is highly recommended for all major libraries.
- A.O. Edmonds, Ball State Univ., Muncie, Ind.
Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc.
LOTS OF STUFF HERE.......that I've never delved into. Not sure how much time I will be spending on this, or care to........but it uncovers another "side of the MLK story" that I never even considered.
Like many fascinating movements, the founder/leader grows and changes his views politically, socially, culturally, and/or spiritually adapting and advancing throughout life. Sources of inspiration for speeches, sermons, and articles are gathered from far and wide......of which, when reshaped can arguably be called one's own. Perhaps, wierwille felt the same......
This article shows that MLK's changing theology resonated with the Unitarian Christian movement rather than a Baptist minister and, thus, ties MLK with the works of Theodore Parker........Click Here
It should not be surprising then that while Dr. King served a Baptist church, his first choice of religion was Unitarian Christian (which later merged with Universalism).[xxxviii] Dr. King's liberal faith resonated with the dynamic Unitarian Christian tradition because of his acknowledgment of the truth in all religions, his view of Jesus as an exemplary teacher, and his rejection of biblical literalism. Coretta Scott had been attending Unitarian churches for years before she met and married Martin, and they both attended Unitarian services while in Boston. He ultimately faced the reality that he would probably not be able to play a role in the civil rights movement in this tradition and thus he became pastor of Dexter Avenue Baptist Church, shortly thereafter being elected to lead the Montgomery bus boycott.
The big difference between VPW and MLK is that MLK did things to help people, whereas most of what VPW did was to promote himself and build up his following. (IMHO)
The big difference between VPW and MLK is that MLK did things to help people, whereas most of what VPW did was to promote himself and build up his following. (IMHO)
And I don't think MLK told everyone God told him he would teach the Word as it hadn't been known since the first century - meaning that everything he taught was taight to him by God HIMSELF.
King's doctorate was honorary given by a legitamate institution of higher learning, Wierwille's was a paper degree mill/scam/flim-flam operation. King was never defrocked while Wierwille was. 2 important differences.
King most certainly did not plagiarize "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" or the "I have a Dream" speech. Two of the most moving and influential civil rights works we have.
I dunno. I don't think he *blatantly* plagiarized. It's like, you have to sift through his speech to find a few unattributed quotes.. vicster, on the other hand.. one has to search *diligently* to find some work he did not blatantly copy..
This topic gets recycled every year or so. Must be time again, get the newbeez thinking? Wake 'em up time?
Everyone's verrrry careful around King's legacy, even though this is indeed very similar to what VPW did, King's
borrowing heavily from others, similar language, phrases and ideas turned to different phrase, etc. Some is undoubtedly the
product of reading, study, and thought where the ideas grew and became King's "own".
Where to draw the line? Good question. Allowing (or glossing over) King's habits and manner because he was what, a good man
who wanted to do good and who is loved and respected by millions isn't fair to him or anyone else.
No one should be afraid of being critiical of King if they are, or speaking honestly about the lack of rigor and discpline
around citations and crediting, etc. .....
Socks......good post.
I have never delved into MLK's life and legacy to any depth......so I find this topic intriguing. There are many mlk websites that open more doors to more questions. I had no idea that his first choice of religion was Unitarian Christian (acknowledging truth in all religions), but (if true) it does help one to understand him being an advocate for the civil rights movement.
Once again.......just like when discussing vpw......I learn MORE about the pillars of great men who went before them. Amazing how the pages of history have faded or been re-written where remarkable and notable men have nearly been forgotten.
Recommended Posts
hiway29
So what exactly is the point you're trying to make ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I'm not sure where you were going with MLK's plagiarism- which appears to be documented,
if worth discussing conerning ways and means.
By quoting an article which lies about a sitting US President, however, you've
undermined wherever you were going.
You linked to here:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/smartest_president_in_history.html
Which includes the following bald-faced lie concerning our current President:
"Obama is a man who accumulated academic credentials while giving no evidence whatsoever of achieving any depth. He was the only president of the Harvard Law Review to graduate without penning a signed article in that esteemed journal. His academic transcripts remain under lock and key, as do his academic papers."
Besides saying "We haven't been able to look at his transcripts and his academic papers"
(the last sentence) "but without looking at any of his academic history,
we have concluded his academic credentials show no proof of depth" (the first sentence),
which is obvious nonsense
(how seriously do you take investigations that say
"We have no evidence, so we have made up the following conclusions"?)
It makes several claims:
1) Presidents of the Harvard Law Review pen signed articles.
2) Obama was an exception to the preceeding sentence.
This is false on both counts.
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/03/limbaugh-obama-law-articles/
The following was said by
"Bradford Berenson — a lawyer who worked in the Bush White House and served with Obama on the Harvard Law Review",
"As a 2L [second year law] student, Barack wrote the same amount as all of his 2L peers, although by policy of the Harvard Law Review, no student writing is signed or attributed to individual authors. As a 3L, it is true that he did not write, but that is because he was the President of the Review. Because the President does so much editing, including of all the major faculty articles, he is not expected to author original pieces himself and almost never does so."
=====================
Wherever you were going, you didn't need to try to get there by getting into a faulty
article about the current US President. (Unless you were deliberately attempting to take
a shot at the current US President- in which case, you really should have done at least
a minute's fact-checking like I did...it took seconds to correct this....)
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Wierwille was attributed "greatness" for his written work and sermons.......of which, plagairism was significant.
MLK was attributed "greatness" for his sermons and movement........of which, plagairism is found.
Is this plagairism? Or, is this just part and parcel of any movement?
More clarification on that quote..........Click Here
MLK...."The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice."
Theodore Parker....."I do not pretend to understand the moral universe; the arc is a long one, my eye reaches but little ways; I cannot calculate the curve and complete the figure by the experience of sight; I can divine it by conscience. And from what I see I am sure it bends towards justice." (1853)
Now......the Oval Office rug has a quote that can be traced back to the Unitarian minister Theodore Parker from the nineteenth-century.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
The quote woven into the newly donated carpet in the oval office is NOT attributed to MLK in the carpet...
I could see the upset if the quote was wrongly attributed, but it wasn't.....
There are plenty of pictures of the carpet on line...
......
Edited by mstar1Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Can you please link us to one? I can't find one offhand.....
If there's no attributions on the carpet- which there may not be- this is all a non-issue.
The quote is there, and was said by both MLK and Theodore Parker (who said it first.)
If there IS an attribution on the carpet- and we haven't seen one yet- this is still
a non-issue. MLK did say it- although Parker said it first.
(A lot of famous quotes are similar, especially when you go down the centuries.
FDR's quote about fear itself is not 100% unique in history, for that matter...
Seneca the Younger said much the same in the 1st century AD)
Personally, I hope the President is working on more important things than his carpet
right now, and that other people realize this is interesting but ultimately insignificant.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Thanks for your responses......
There are definitely two sides to this allegation of plagairism....
Voice of Deliverance: The Language of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Its Sources [Hardcover]
Keith D. Miller (Author)
LOTS OF STUFF HERE.......that I've never delved into. Not sure how much time I will be spending on this, or care to........but it uncovers another "side of the MLK story" that I never even considered.
Like many fascinating movements, the founder/leader grows and changes his views politically, socially, culturally, and/or spiritually adapting and advancing throughout life. Sources of inspiration for speeches, sermons, and articles are gathered from far and wide......of which, when reshaped can arguably be called one's own. Perhaps, wierwille felt the same......
This article shows that MLK's changing theology resonated with the Unitarian Christian movement rather than a Baptist minister and, thus, ties MLK with the works of Theodore Parker........Click Here
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
WW--I am having a difficult time posting pictures but
HERE is a link with several pictures of the carpet some of which you can read the quotes without any attributions.
One would hope--
Edited by mstar1Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mark Clarke
The big difference between VPW and MLK is that MLK did things to help people, whereas most of what VPW did was to promote himself and build up his following. (IMHO)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
skyrider are you trying to make a viable comparison between vpw and mlk?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JavaJane
And I don't think MLK told everyone God told him he would teach the Word as it hadn't been known since the first century - meaning that everything he taught was taight to him by God HIMSELF.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
If we must compare VPW with a controversial African-American man, I'd prefer Tiger Woods.
Edited by JimLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
The points of comparison are......
1) Both men lived relatively during the same time period.
2) Both......were reverends and went on to get doctorate degrees.
3) Both......were point men of cultural/spiritual movements.
4) Both......"borrowed" and/or plagairized from pillars in the 19th century.
5) Both......were labeled with "controversial greatness."
6) Both......show evidence that Christianity was simply a steppingstone to another agenda.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Thomas Loy Bumgarner
King's doctorate was honorary given by a legitamate institution of higher learning, Wierwille's was a paper degree mill/scam/flim-flam operation. King was never defrocked while Wierwille was. 2 important differences.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
King most certainly did not plagiarize "Letter from a Birmingham Jail" or the "I have a Dream" speech. Two of the most moving and influential civil rights works we have.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
hiway29
King is a hero to millions of people, who has and will , stand the test of time. Wierwille is a.....never mind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I dunno. I don't think he *blatantly* plagiarized. It's like, you have to sift through his speech to find a few unattributed quotes.. vicster, on the other hand.. one has to search *diligently* to find some work he did not blatantly copy..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
then there are the allegations of adultery..
where the allegations are what's the word..
promulgated? motivated.. by the FBI.. i.e. the presidente's enforcer.. help me here..
the vicster never hit that level of government radar surveillance.. though from boasting at one ROA one senses that he wished that he did..
I HIGHLY doubt Mr. King employed underlings to use certain psychotropic substances to make victims more willing..
unless one can show evidence otherwise..
as far as vp is concerned.. I think he knew he wasn't the revolutionary that he ought to be..
yeah. He wasn't da MAN he knew to be..
pathetic..
just wanted money for nuttin.. chicks for free..
I think the word "turd" will pass the spell checker here..
Edited by HamLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
This topic gets recycled every year or so. Must be time again, get the newbeez thinking? Wake 'em up time?
Everyone's verrrry careful around King's legacy, even though this is indeed very similar to what VPW did, King's
borrowing heavily from others, similar language, phrases and ideas turned to different phrase, etc. Some is undoubtedly the
product of reading, study, and thought where the ideas grew and became King's "own".
Where to draw the line? Good question. Allowing (or glossing over) King's habits and manner because he was what, a good man
who wanted to do good and who is loved and respected by millions isn't fair to him or anyone else.
No one should be afraid of being critiical of King if they are, or speaking honestly about the lack of rigor and discpline
around citations and crediting, etc. In his day information wasn't distributed near as widely as today and the products of an
education weren't as easily accessible to all as they are today. I'm sure at the time he may have assumed he was within academic
boundaries, his own at least. Maybe he just figured to get 'er done and hope no one would ever find out. Maybe he didn't care.
Public Speaking is slightly looser in the crediting - it can clog up a presentation to quote ever reference and near refererence,
but transcripts and distribution of information around the topic is always available.
Anyway - lots of people will lie to your face and not even act disturbed if caught right smack dab in the lie. Lies upon lies upon lies upon lies.
Doesn't phase 'em at all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Socks......good post.
I have never delved into MLK's life and legacy to any depth......so I find this topic intriguing. There are many mlk websites that open more doors to more questions. I had no idea that his first choice of religion was Unitarian Christian (acknowledging truth in all religions), but (if true) it does help one to understand him being an advocate for the civil rights movement.
Once again.......just like when discussing vpw......I learn MORE about the pillars of great men who went before them. Amazing how the pages of history have faded or been re-written where remarkable and notable men have nearly been forgotten.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I would love to..
enough on the plate at the moment.. give me a couple of months..
I've only started to look at what some of the old generation did in Chicago..
well, (slightly) older than me..
Edited by HamLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Most of them are gone now..
Hoffman.. Rubin, Lennon..Delinger..
I think Tom Hayden is still with us..
along with his once bride..
where do we go from here..
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
"won't you please come to Chicago.."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Yeah.. the song for Mayor Daley..
in a land known as freedom, how can such a thing be fair..
somehow people must be free.. I hope the day comes soon..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Sorry.. I'm just quoting words of the Prophets..
"Don't let it bring you down.. its only castles burning.."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.