IMO this is just the type of language that TWI uses to promote "group think". Organizations such as that struggle in cultures and societies that have a high level of individualism, and a low level of collectivism. The United States typically does have a more individualistic culture than many.
"Group think" is important to establish for TWI because it is a highly controlling organization. To actually get people to be willing to participate in levels of control of this nature, they have to introduce language of control. This language instills the values of an organization over the values of an individual. This is necessary to get people to agree to extreme behavior. How else would you expect to convince people to do things like sell homes just to get rid of mortgages? Or to forego individual goals so "serve in the household". With "group think" people display exteme levels of brainwashing, where they make major decisions in their life "because so-and-so thought it would be best".
No, all of that is a subtle twisting of scriptures or the intent of true Christianity. I have Christ in me, and that frees me to completely develop myself as an individual. It is not some corporate or organizational image that I am building. I have no need to wash out the personality from my endeavors under the guise of some ruse.
God made you who YOU are, curiously and wonderfully made and knit together. God did not make you a clone, a robot, or an identical model with every other believer.
To pretend that God did not endow you with particular abilities is really to deny God and his care for your life.
Of course, there are less good bits too, bits that are perhaps less lovely. You are a fallible human being, after all.
He accepts you, fallibilities and all.
It's what you do with your God-given abilities that can make you special. So you're smart...do you use it to serve fellow human beings better, or to make life harder for them? So you're musical...do you use it to sing songs of joy, or do you use your voice to torment others? So you are a big strategic thinker...do you use it to plan to help others, think up big schemes that improve life...or do you use it to perhaps develop in criminal ways and become a successful crook?
Don't bury your talents and abilities...be thankful God gave them to YOU and do something good with them.
Agree with you very much that they squashed your ability.
I'm no thicko myself, but every time I came up with a good idea or asked a question (especially about the odd and often inefficient ways that sometimes TWI wanted things done), I got "You're leaning to your own understanding. Just obey and do it the way I said." Crushing.
TWI squandered talent and ability.
Who knows how far they really set back the movement of (gag) "the word over the world" by shackling the hands of the laborers?
Yeah, you're special because of the Christ in you. Otherwise, you're really just yesterday's paper, horse dung on the trail of life. Now doesn't that just make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?
And all these years later, I'm still trying to find that confidence I had before I met TWI.
Twinky - - quit looking! IMHO, it's been there all along - - just kind of hiding underneath the fear that you were put under. The fear is gone.....such a minuscule "head leadership" can't hold you down anymore. You can do it all now - - any time you want :)
IMO this is just the type of language that TWI uses to promote "group think". Organizations such as that struggle in cultures and societies that have a high level of individualism, and a low level of collectivism. The United States typically does have a more individualistic culture than many.
"Group think" is important to establish for TWI because it is a highly controlling organization. To actually get people to be willing to participate in levels of control of this nature, they have to introduce language of control. This language instills the values of an organization over the values of an individual. This is necessary to get people to agree to extreme behavior. How else would you expect to convince people to do things like sell homes just to get rid of mortgages? Or to forego individual goals so "serve in the household". With "group think" people display exteme levels of brainwashing, where they make major decisions in their life "because so-and-so thought it would be best".
No, all of that is a subtle twisting of scriptures or the intent of true Christianity. I have Christ in me, and that frees me to completely develop myself as an individual. It is not some corporate or organizational image that I am building. I have no need to wash out the personality from my endeavors under the guise of some ruse.
Christianity is freedom in Christ.
TWI is bondage under man.
chockfull..........good insight there. Thanks.
In my 24 year involvement with twi (1974-1998).....I am convinced that wierwille abandoned that "Christ-in-you" bible-thumping around 1977/1978. Wierwille was being challenged by those who deeply followed their spirit-within allegiance and walked. Some of those 1977 & 1978 clergy letters had elements of confronting certain ones who were "taking their liberty in Christ too freely" (and yes.....I've read them firsthand). Remember, in 1978 wierwille had to confront those three 8th corps guys for their research that strayed from the pfal-model of acceptance.
The wagons were circling in 1978. In hindsight, I now see that group-control and the twi-brand name was more in operation than setting the captives free, liberating the individual. The 1978 advanced class was the last year that twi showed all those unique videos/audios of others walking in the power of God.....by 1979, the clips were more 'in-house' with references to twi, twi, and more twi.
What about the individual?
What about the uniqueness of receiving revelation from God? How God works individually with what that person could perceive? How God could/would reach someone via their background, work skills, uniqueness?
Twi went bland.....twi definitions went flat......twi became a religion.
Matters not whether some blame rivenbark, martindale, geer, lynn or whoever. Wierwille herded twi into groupthink to command absolute control. He talked about "his" WOWs, "his" Advanced Class grads, "his" Corps.
Even when wierwille stated, "you're the best"......he was referring to a GROUP.
Funny that there's an ad for Scientolgy above the Fast Reply box right now...
All of your replies have been very insightful. I find it interesting that I WAS questioning the notion that it wasn't anything to do with my individual abilities when I first heard someone tell me that my accomplishments were related to the Christ-in-you , but the more I heard it, the more I accepted it until it became ingrained in my mind as The Truth ™. Funny how when you hear something enough you just start accepting it as fact!
God remembers us better than a mother remembers her nursing child. God tattoos our names on Her palms and then holds Her hands before Her face. just so She won't lose thought of us for a moment.
now that made my day
god bless, get undressed is something i lived, but i don't associate it with god any longer -- only the vicster prickster
I used to imagine to myself that each person I met
had won a Nobel Peace Prize
to train myself to give the appropriate God-like respect to all.
I only do it very rarely now, for fun or maybe to check up on myself?
Will I treat them differently?
The Nobel Peace Prize, to God,
is the difference between a 6' tall person
and a 5' tall person
from an airplane at 3,000 feet.
Or how about imagining that that person in front of you is - actually - Jesus Christ? Or Paul on his missionary travels? How then would you treat them, how then would you listen to what they have to say?
I do some work with homeless people. They have so many do-gooders hanging around that they can be slow to talk, really talk, about who they are (rather than what they can get). But (some of them) once they start talking, well, you might find some amazing talent there. And some, just plain hard times, lost of a parent or guardian left them homeless and they eventually ran out of friends to sofa-surf with.
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
There's a Shakespeare play called "Measure for Measure" in which the local bigwig entrusts his huge estate and city governance to his second in command, and then moves in disguise around his city. The substitute governor displays all his hypocrisy and abuses lots of the locals. In the nick of time, the disguised governor reveals himself, sets matters to right, and marries the heroine.
In another more modern, real-time, story, a church minister disguises himself as a drunk and lounges around outside his own church on Sunday morning. Members of the congregation step over him or look at him in disgust. Nobody stops to help or see if he needs medical assistance - much less invites him into the church. The service starts, and in walks this disguised church minister, to the mortification of the congregation.
We're all special.
Recognizing that specialness in others is sometimes harder.
Quite a lot harder.
Especially if you have trained yourself to think that you are superior. If you fail to esteem others more highly than yourself.
This guy was in rez. When he left, he painted a picture - copied it - which was widely heralded as special ability because he had learned to concentrate whilst in rez. He hadn't done any art work before going in rez. And knowing how busy things are in rez, it's doubtful he managed to do any art work in rez either.
So it was all his improved powers of concentration that enabled him to do this picture.
Well actually even God didn't get the glory. It wasn't the "Christ in him" that enabled him.
No, it was what he learned in rez, his "stayed mind."
And yet...
...you think back on all the real talent that was squandered...
Wierwille taught that it's "Christ in you, the hope of glory"...he also taught that we are righteous in the eyes of God, justified, sanctified, etc....
...and then they proceeded to humiliate their followers with face meltings and wild accusations...
I say that they did not believe their own teachings.
What about the uniqueness of receiving revelation from God? How God works individually with what that person could perceive? How God could/would reach someone via their background, work skills, uniqueness?
Twi went bland.....twi definitions went flat......twi became a religion.
Matters not whether some blame rivenbark, martindale, geer, lynn or whoever. Wierwille herded twi into groupthink to command absolute control. He talked about "his" WOWs, "his" Advanced Class grads, "his" Corps.
Even when wierwille stated, "you're the best"......he was referring to a GROUP.
Classic control mentality.
With all due respect, in some ways I agree with this post, and in others I disagree, for what it's worth.
Any group that teaches freedom of thought and expression has to deal with the fact that some people are going to actually start doing it. When people start actually practicing freedom it upsets the status quo, and that is very frightening to other people. People who know they're free are not controllable. The Spirit of God is not subservient to the will of man and cares nothing for organizations or titles. People who follow their own leadings without fear are scary because they don't tow the line, and they won't fit into categories. Sometimes such people make mistakes that might make the organization look bad...oh no!!!
Where I fall into disagreement is the thinking that many seem to have suggesting that TWI started out as a good organization that just fell off the rails. I've heard some say things like, TWI had a good thing going but they let it slip away, they became religious. No. TWI was a corrupt, heretical group from its outset. It was born out of VP's own rebellion and drive to be worshipped. He tried to be a man that was accountable to no one. He fleeced the flock (a bunch of kids) to fulfill his own personal whims and lusts.
TWI was not a Christian organization and those who were involved did not enjoy a Christian experience. That is not to say that no one in TWI was a Christian. I am saying that following VP and even the current teachings of TWI will not lead one to Christ.
of course they didn't believe their own damn teachings!!!!
i saw the love of christ like ZERO in my dealings with most "leadership"
servants ?????? what a laugh
they wouldn't know jesus christ if they fell over him
like i said, this is in reference to most, not all
No, not all, but damn near all! It was hard to not morph into a flaming idiot once one went through the Corps training and went on to "the field". But you're right. Some people were good people and good leaders and damned if I know how they managed to remain that way. A lot were chased out, as you know. Umm, I wasn't chased out by the way. I sorta fit right in I confess.
Funny that there's an ad for Scientolgy above the Fast Reply box right now...
All of your replies have been very insightful. I find it interesting that I WAS questioning the notion that it wasn't anything to do with my individual abilities when I first heard someone tell me that my accomplishments were related to the Christ-in-you , but the more I heard it, the more I accepted it until it became ingrained in my mind as The Truth â„¢. Funny how when you hear something enough you just start accepting it as fact!
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chockfull
IMO this is just the type of language that TWI uses to promote "group think". Organizations such as that struggle in cultures and societies that have a high level of individualism, and a low level of collectivism. The United States typically does have a more individualistic culture than many.
"Group think" is important to establish for TWI because it is a highly controlling organization. To actually get people to be willing to participate in levels of control of this nature, they have to introduce language of control. This language instills the values of an organization over the values of an individual. This is necessary to get people to agree to extreme behavior. How else would you expect to convince people to do things like sell homes just to get rid of mortgages? Or to forego individual goals so "serve in the household". With "group think" people display exteme levels of brainwashing, where they make major decisions in their life "because so-and-so thought it would be best".
No, all of that is a subtle twisting of scriptures or the intent of true Christianity. I have Christ in me, and that frees me to completely develop myself as an individual. It is not some corporate or organizational image that I am building. I have no need to wash out the personality from my endeavors under the guise of some ruse.
Christianity is freedom in Christ.
TWI is bondage under man.
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Twinky
God made you who YOU are, curiously and wonderfully made and knit together. God did not make you a clone, a robot, or an identical model with every other believer.
To pretend that God did not endow you with particular abilities is really to deny God and his care for your life.
Of course, there are less good bits too, bits that are perhaps less lovely. You are a fallible human being, after all.
He accepts you, fallibilities and all.
It's what you do with your God-given abilities that can make you special. So you're smart...do you use it to serve fellow human beings better, or to make life harder for them? So you're musical...do you use it to sing songs of joy, or do you use your voice to torment others? So you are a big strategic thinker...do you use it to plan to help others, think up big schemes that improve life...or do you use it to perhaps develop in criminal ways and become a successful crook?
Don't bury your talents and abilities...be thankful God gave them to YOU and do something good with them.
Agree with you very much that they squashed your ability.
I'm no thicko myself, but every time I came up with a good idea or asked a question (especially about the odd and often inefficient ways that sometimes TWI wanted things done), I got "You're leaning to your own understanding. Just obey and do it the way I said." Crushing.
TWI squandered talent and ability.
Who knows how far they really set back the movement of (gag) "the word over the world" by shackling the hands of the laborers?
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Twinky
And all these years later, I'm still trying to find that confidence I had before I met TWI.
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waysider
Yeah, you're special because of the Christ in you. Otherwise, you're really just yesterday's paper, horse dung on the trail of life. Now doesn't that just make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?
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WordWolf
The splinter groups often did the same/ do the same....
unless you're one of certain SPECIFIC people....
they get a free pass and the rest of the group are supposed to conform.
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krys
Twinky - - quit looking! IMHO, it's been there all along - - just kind of hiding underneath the fear that you were put under. The fear is gone.....such a minuscule "head leadership" can't hold you down anymore. You can do it all now - - any time you want :)
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cheranne
:nono5:Whats in YOUR WALLET!
That is how special The Way International thought you were!
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Rejoice
"SHUDDER---!"
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skyrider
chockfull..........good insight there. Thanks.
In my 24 year involvement with twi (1974-1998).....I am convinced that wierwille abandoned that "Christ-in-you" bible-thumping around 1977/1978. Wierwille was being challenged by those who deeply followed their spirit-within allegiance and walked. Some of those 1977 & 1978 clergy letters had elements of confronting certain ones who were "taking their liberty in Christ too freely" (and yes.....I've read them firsthand). Remember, in 1978 wierwille had to confront those three 8th corps guys for their research that strayed from the pfal-model of acceptance.
The wagons were circling in 1978. In hindsight, I now see that group-control and the twi-brand name was more in operation than setting the captives free, liberating the individual. The 1978 advanced class was the last year that twi showed all those unique videos/audios of others walking in the power of God.....by 1979, the clips were more 'in-house' with references to twi, twi, and more twi.
What about the individual?
What about the uniqueness of receiving revelation from God? How God works individually with what that person could perceive? How God could/would reach someone via their background, work skills, uniqueness?
Twi went bland.....twi definitions went flat......twi became a religion.
Matters not whether some blame rivenbark, martindale, geer, lynn or whoever. Wierwille herded twi into groupthink to command absolute control. He talked about "his" WOWs, "his" Advanced Class grads, "his" Corps.
Even when wierwille stated, "you're the best"......he was referring to a GROUP.
Classic control mentality.
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JavaJane
Funny that there's an ad for Scientolgy above the Fast Reply box right now...
All of your replies have been very insightful. I find it interesting that I WAS questioning the notion that it wasn't anything to do with my individual abilities when I first heard someone tell me that my accomplishments were related to the Christ-in-you , but the more I heard it, the more I accepted it until it became ingrained in my mind as The Truth ™. Funny how when you hear something enough you just start accepting it as fact!
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outandabout
Oh but we WERE special. Weren't we always told YOU'RE THE BEST!! That sure made me feel special.
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waysider
Literal, according to ab-usage.
"When it comes to corn field, podunk, two-bit cults-----You keeds are the best!"
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Pax
I've seen this thread for days but didn't read the opening post until just now.
While I agree with what was said,
it's really just the title that cracks me up each time I see it.
"You're not special" is such a sick thing to communicate to anyone.
See the lack of faithful love being practiced?
Oh, how is it that Way people can't see the error?
Communicate to anyone that they are not special, and you are in LaLa Land.
You don't have a clue who God is,
despite Jesus shouting it from the rooftops
if you have not yet discerned the specialness
in each human being's soul.
I used to imagine to myself that each person I met
had won a Nobel Peace Prize
to train myself to give the appropriate God-like respect to all.
I only do it very rarely now, for fun or maybe to check up on myself?
Will I treat them differently?
The Nobel Peace Prize, to God,
is the difference between a 6' tall person
and a 5' tall person
from an airplane at 3,000 feet.
[from Isaiah]
God remembers us better than a mother remembers her nursing child.
God tattoos our names on Her palms
and then holds Her hands before Her face.
just so She won't lose thought of us for a moment.
A Christian who communicates,
"You're not special"
is like a modern astronomer saying,
"The earth is flat."
They aren't deserving of the name.
only slightly off topic:
Chunk America used to say, impersonating Victor's accent,
"God bless, get undressed,"
(we didn't know Victor's crimes then)
or
(remember the Victor accent, it's important)
"God curse, you're the worst."
Chunk, of course, was joking.
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excathedra
now that made my day
god bless, get undressed is something i lived, but i don't associate it with god any longer -- only the vicster prickster
--
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Twinky
Or how about imagining that that person in front of you is - actually - Jesus Christ? Or Paul on his missionary travels? How then would you treat them, how then would you listen to what they have to say?
I do some work with homeless people. They have so many do-gooders hanging around that they can be slow to talk, really talk, about who they are (rather than what they can get). But (some of them) once they start talking, well, you might find some amazing talent there. And some, just plain hard times, lost of a parent or guardian left them homeless and they eventually ran out of friends to sofa-surf with.
Leviticus 19:15 KJV
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
Romans 2:11 KJV
For there is no respect of persons with God
James 2:3 KJV
And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
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Pax
Why did I use Nobel Prize winner vs. Jesus or Paul?
this is off topic but,
I think the literal interpretation of the gospel and Acts
made it too difficult to identify with Jesus or Paul.
A metaphorical interpretation of scripture
opens many new vistas of faithful and serious use of scripture.
to bring it back on topic:
I'm special, but not a literal "rise up and walk" kind of special.
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Twinky
To take it slightly off topic again, Pax:
There's a Shakespeare play called "Measure for Measure" in which the local bigwig entrusts his huge estate and city governance to his second in command, and then moves in disguise around his city. The substitute governor displays all his hypocrisy and abuses lots of the locals. In the nick of time, the disguised governor reveals himself, sets matters to right, and marries the heroine.
In another more modern, real-time, story, a church minister disguises himself as a drunk and lounges around outside his own church on Sunday morning. Members of the congregation step over him or look at him in disgust. Nobody stops to help or see if he needs medical assistance - much less invites him into the church. The service starts, and in walks this disguised church minister, to the mortification of the congregation.
We're all special.
Recognizing that specialness in others is sometimes harder.
Quite a lot harder.
Especially if you have trained yourself to think that you are superior. If you fail to esteem others more highly than yourself.
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Twinky
Okay, just to bring it back on topic again:
This guy was in rez. When he left, he painted a picture - copied it - which was widely heralded as special ability because he had learned to concentrate whilst in rez. He hadn't done any art work before going in rez. And knowing how busy things are in rez, it's doubtful he managed to do any art work in rez either.
So it was all his improved powers of concentration that enabled him to do this picture.
Well actually even God didn't get the glory. It wasn't the "Christ in him" that enabled him.
No, it was what he learned in rez, his "stayed mind."
And yet...
...you think back on all the real talent that was squandered...
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GrouchoMarxJr
Wierwille taught that it's "Christ in you, the hope of glory"...he also taught that we are righteous in the eyes of God, justified, sanctified, etc....
...and then they proceeded to humiliate their followers with face meltings and wild accusations...
I say that they did not believe their own teachings.
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excathedra
of course they didn't believe their own damn teachings!!!!
i saw the love of christ like ZERO in my dealings with most "leadership"
servants ?????? what a laugh
they wouldn't know jesus christ if they fell over him
like i said, this is in reference to most, not all
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Ham
sometimes.. "I'm not special" is a disguise one puts on to prevent being beat up in junior high school..
the sad thing is everyone is special..
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Broken Arrow
With all due respect, in some ways I agree with this post, and in others I disagree, for what it's worth.
Any group that teaches freedom of thought and expression has to deal with the fact that some people are going to actually start doing it. When people start actually practicing freedom it upsets the status quo, and that is very frightening to other people. People who know they're free are not controllable. The Spirit of God is not subservient to the will of man and cares nothing for organizations or titles. People who follow their own leadings without fear are scary because they don't tow the line, and they won't fit into categories. Sometimes such people make mistakes that might make the organization look bad...oh no!!!
Where I fall into disagreement is the thinking that many seem to have suggesting that TWI started out as a good organization that just fell off the rails. I've heard some say things like, TWI had a good thing going but they let it slip away, they became religious. No. TWI was a corrupt, heretical group from its outset. It was born out of VP's own rebellion and drive to be worshipped. He tried to be a man that was accountable to no one. He fleeced the flock (a bunch of kids) to fulfill his own personal whims and lusts.
TWI was not a Christian organization and those who were involved did not enjoy a Christian experience. That is not to say that no one in TWI was a Christian. I am saying that following VP and even the current teachings of TWI will not lead one to Christ.
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Broken Arrow
No, not all, but damn near all! It was hard to not morph into a flaming idiot once one went through the Corps training and went on to "the field". But you're right. Some people were good people and good leaders and damned if I know how they managed to remain that way. A lot were chased out, as you know. Umm, I wasn't chased out by the way. I sorta fit right in I confess.
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cheranne
Cat.bmp
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