How horrible is it that when you're already upset at the death of someone that you have to brace yourself before you tell those others, who claim to be closer than family and friends, knowing that condemnation of you or someone you love will be their first reaction. Maybe you'll tell yourself that they're afraid and that makes them angry and wanting to blame, but how cruel that you have to put up with that sick behavior on top of everything else. I'm so sorry that this happened to so many and am feeling an old shaky anger in my stomach that people were treated like this.
amen. so gut wrenchingly tragic to me how opposite so much of the twi-experience was and is. it seems that ministers who lack the capacity to navigate suffering and loss cause as much, if not more, than they avoid. my constant prayer is how we can turn this lead into gold.
Life does hold mysteries none of us completely understand.
and...if i may add...it seems to me that the deeper we move into those mysteries, the more we will understand as the edges of our mysteries move. which is perhaps why the same ancient books are always being interpreted (and applied) in such a wide range of ways.
but it seems to me that the states of consciousness in aging, illness and dying and such are the foundational territory of the Judeo-Christian heritage...and the contents of scripture are highly responsive to such contexts...and these better arts and histories in Judeo-Christianity can go a long way to heal the consequences of having demonized and avoided them for so long.
I think this is another great example of how twi blames the victim when someone is hurt. Everything bad that happens is because of unbelief... (or an attack of the adversary if you are in good graces with twi's agenda and leadership of the day.)
Thinking about this again today, only because I was re-reading this post (I try and not think about my TWI days and thoughts much).
But we always talk here about how if you are not "in" fellowship with TWI, all negative things were/are because of you and your believing. Hence the victim is at fault.
And if you ARE "in" fellowship, partying with the upper echelon of TWI, everything is due to the adversary's attack, and so cleared of any negative action/thought on their part..
But honestly, aren't they both really just two ways of looking at the same thing. Half full, half empty sort of thing. I mean, The adversary is attacking 'because' of their negative believing/action.. (Granted, I don't believe in this idiotic "principle" of believing). Why is it the two never came together? That the attack of the adversary was BECAUSE of their whatever.. Were we really trying to cover for them that much that our mind wasn't willing to jump to the reason the adversary attacked them? (And I'm talking about while we in, not whether we even think there is an adversary today).
Maybe I'm not making any sense. I'm just trying to understand how we really took the "attack of the adversary" saying as meaning it's not the leader's fault. Or was it not the saying itself, but rather some of us weren't ready to go there with our thinking? That we'd rather believe VP and LCM's devouring of the flock was because of OUR inaction instead of THEIR (the top dawgs like RosaLIE Fox's) inaction.. (While I didn't believe LCM's devouring was our fault, but what about the rain at the Rock or a million other things we were willing to blame our unbelief instead of the leaders when they were just as "involved" as us [if not MORE]).
Were little ol' us greater than them?! Are the leaders that minuscule in their believing that little peons can override them? Then who needs their sorry arses! Be gone with them and live your own life, cause you're gonna cause it anyways and they admittedly can't help! They admittedly said it is your fault not theirs because they were believing which wasn't enough. That their believing was too weak and stupid.
Isn't that the outcome of that belief? It's the adversary's fault because YOU didn't believe and your leader's believing wasn't enough to save you. So they do you no good except criticize and put you down and take your life away.. Yeah, who needs those idiots..
Why didn't our brains take it to that full conclusion?
Now, looking back, I wonder if it was just that he would have burst into flames if he had walked into that holy area of the church. Much like a vampire or witch in an old horror film.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
--
when i was a wayferhead my mom was kind enough to sit through the PFAL class
the only thing she can remember is how upset she was about that little kid who died -- you know the one whose mom walked him to school or something
my mom has 9 kids -- we are all alive -- youngest is 46 and oldest is 56 -- mom is 78
Why didn't our brains take it to that full conclusion?
Because we were a bunch of kids whose thought processes had not yet fully developed. Most of us, imo, were looking for something missing in our souls and thought we found it in TWI. In my case, I hoped I had found it.
It's been fairly well documented among doctors that depression, anxiety, and the like suppress the immune system thus opening up the body for all kinds of things. I'm not just making this up. With my own health issues, medical information I received said this very thing. Of course, I suppose someone could "run" with this and say all one had to do was "stay happy" and good health would be guaranteed. That's not true either, but it is a factor.
I didn't complete my thought, sorry. My point in saying this was that there is a difference between emotions having an affect on one's health, and dying because one gives up and "stops believing".
Good comments. Forgive me for butting in, I have not been by here for quite some time. I have had my own math to solve. :) The fact I am alive and doing great is whole 'nuther story! I have spent much of my time the last few years researching alternative treatments and approaches for cancer. Certainly the topic of belief (mine) and its impact upon my longevity has come to my mind MANY times over the years. So I am not writing this without a lot of introspection.
Anyway, Broken Arrow, on this topic of believing and living which you brought up I would like to add that we were taught that the ONLY thing preventing us from being healed was our believing. Do you remember that? And that there was no condemnation if we went to Third Aid.
It may turn out that this Wierwille teaching is true... only NOT true in the way we were told it was true. It may be that belief in "faith healing" actually gets in the way of certain healing techinques.
Yes. Its ok. I will pause until everyone reads that line again.
I am not offering this info to start a thread-war about the virtue (or not) of believing - - and the role it plays in a person's life - - or not - -
It turns out, there is some very good research being done in this area of healing of cancer by William Bengston.
His work is a game-changer IMO. He has gone about his work in a very professional way and his results are pushing hard against conventional wisdom in both science and circles of faith.
For example, he has noted that in using his healing technique that if the people 'believe" that God will heal the person, or that they will perform the healing... then the healing results are lessened. This is certainly opposite of everything we learned in our days in the Way... or nearly any church for that matter. His results are clinically confirmed.
I will butt out now. Thanks for considering this remarkable piece of information. Many people may be dying to know it. And the topic seemed an appropriate segue for me to introduce it.
This is an excellent thread and deserves to carry on. If this was a de-reail... forgive me, please.
Because we were a bunch of kids whose thought processes had not yet fully developed. Most of us, imo, were looking for something missing in our souls and thought we found it in TWI. In my case, I hoped I had found it.
in other words.. correct me if I'm wrong.
"any port in the storm"..
I dunno.. if we were born in India.. or some place else.. would we have hung out a shingle for Shiva..
my dad.. seemed to go through this process of self- and everything realization with sadness..
I just can't stand to here these words: "I'm believing for...". Wouldn't be correct English to rather say "I believe that God will bless me with ..(whatever)"? TWI teaches "pistis" is an action word. I thought it was a noun. Am I wrong? Nowhere else have I heard this distinct variation of that word utilized as I hear among the "household". My wife does it, and I try not to show how I cringe when she says it. I am gradually chipping away at that. It will take time, considering her experience with "da ministry" goes back, off-and-on, to the mid-eighties, whereas I have been in only about a decade, soon after the LCM departure.
If I am wrong about the word "pistis" please let me know.
It has really begun to grate on my nerves, although it has bothered me like an itch you can't scratch, for years now.
I call these annoying catchphrases, that are the exclusive domain of TWI, "way-isms". Sure I'm not the only one who thought of that.
Noun, verb, pronoun, tuna fish sandwich, '58 Buick Special------call it whatever you want.-------It's still a delusional fallacy to think you can change things in the physical realm, for better or worse, by virtue of your thoughts. In the original PLAF (The Wonder Class), Wierwille called it the "magic" of believing. I think he borrowed that term from someone whose name evades me. None the less, it's nonsense. People literally died trying to prove that the "law" of believing was valid. That's reprehensible.
I remember I got The Beatles back together in the late 70's (in my head) when I bought all of their solo albums and played them endlessly. Then, I read a book that put out a very bad light about them and subsequently, that dispelled my belief in them and I destroyed all of their albums.
It been an expensive reinvestment. I have many of their albums again. It's sort of like twi after I ran into them. They brainwashed me into another counterfeit belief about how to believe in God and how to believe the right things.
Things are (in general) I have to admit getting better every day that I am no longer w/ twi. :)
Noun, verb, pronoun, tuna fish sandwich, '58 Buick Special------call it whatever you want.-------It's still a delusional fallacy to think you can change things in the physical realm, for better or worse, by virtue of your thoughts. In the original PLAF (The Wonder Class), Wierwille called it the "magic" of believing. I think he borrowed that term from someone whose name evades me. None the less, it's nonsense. People literally died trying to prove that the "law" of believing was valid. That's reprehensible.
Noun, verb, pronoun, tuna fish sandwich, '58 Buick Special------call it whatever you want.-------It's still a delusional fallacy to think you can change things in the physical realm, for better or worse, by virtue of your thoughts. In the original PLAF (The Wonder Class), Wierwille called it the "magic" of believing. I think he borrowed that term from someone whose name evades me. None the less, it's nonsense. People literally died trying to prove that the "law" of believing was valid. That's reprehensible.
I had a good friend who died of cancer, ex-wafer. He started fellowshipping with a group some would call "name it and claim it". He kept confessing and confessing and confessing and claiming his healing. The he died. The problem with this "magic of believing" thing is that it kept him from dying peacefully, He was always "fighting" and claiming, and confessing. It was very sad, really.
but back to the "you die.. when you stop believing.."
isn't the claim.. if you stop believing, you die?
that would mathematically speaking, be equivalent to.. "you will not die, if you do not stop believing.."
It's the contra positive to the original claim..
the problem is.. they didn't define "believing".. "believing".. what? or is it just raw "believing".. or is it..
what?
if it's "raw believing".. what da hell is that?
fwiw...while i dont fully agree with Becker, Denial of Death is perhaps one of the most important and revealing works on this topic. Sobering view of the times.
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Broken Arrow
VPW taught that a person actually dies when they stop believing. As he grew older he began to say that a person dies when they become "tired of the fight and stop believing". This teaching was damag
teachmevp
Sorry to hear about your dad, I lost my dad in a car wreak; the not being able to say goodbye or giving the dad a hug, sometimes I feel I got robbed, but try to sing that ROE Speedwagon song, Keep
excathedra
ohmyheart broken arrow and teachme and wg and all of us -- oh kryssie NEVER a silly old woman -- you are awesome -- i think you're just the greatest -- love, e also, if you die when you stop belie
Pax
in agreement with Cheranne and a few others here....
It's important for all of us Ex-Wayfers to remember, and remember well,
that Victor had no idea what he was talking about
the great majority of the time.
His view of the Bible was wrong
It ain't a divine product of the spirit here on earth.
It's the product of people responding to (not with) the divine spirit - big difference.
His view of women made him a criminal.
His view of the role of material goods to the abundant life was 180 degrees off and toxic to put it mildly.
Oh, what else?
He was a dope in sheep's clothing.
Flee away from his teachings.
There is such a thing as good religion and bad religion...
fundamentalism is bad religion.
Victor was almost too confused to be a legitimate fundamentalist.
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cara
How horrible is it that when you're already upset at the death of someone that you have to brace yourself before you tell those others, who claim to be closer than family and friends, knowing that condemnation of you or someone you love will be their first reaction. Maybe you'll tell yourself that they're afraid and that makes them angry and wanting to blame, but how cruel that you have to put up with that sick behavior on top of everything else. I'm so sorry that this happened to so many and am feeling an old shaky anger in my stomach that people were treated like this.
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sirguessalot
amen. so gut wrenchingly tragic to me how opposite so much of the twi-experience was and is. it seems that ministers who lack the capacity to navigate suffering and loss cause as much, if not more, than they avoid. my constant prayer is how we can turn this lead into gold.
and...if i may add...it seems to me that the deeper we move into those mysteries, the more we will understand as the edges of our mysteries move. which is perhaps why the same ancient books are always being interpreted (and applied) in such a wide range of ways.
but it seems to me that the states of consciousness in aging, illness and dying and such are the foundational territory of the Judeo-Christian heritage...and the contents of scripture are highly responsive to such contexts...and these better arts and histories in Judeo-Christianity can go a long way to heal the consequences of having demonized and avoided them for so long.
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TrustAndObey
Thinking about this again today, only because I was re-reading this post (I try and not think about my TWI days and thoughts much).
But we always talk here about how if you are not "in" fellowship with TWI, all negative things were/are because of you and your believing. Hence the victim is at fault.
And if you ARE "in" fellowship, partying with the upper echelon of TWI, everything is due to the adversary's attack, and so cleared of any negative action/thought on their part..
But honestly, aren't they both really just two ways of looking at the same thing. Half full, half empty sort of thing. I mean, The adversary is attacking 'because' of their negative believing/action.. (Granted, I don't believe in this idiotic "principle" of believing). Why is it the two never came together? That the attack of the adversary was BECAUSE of their whatever.. Were we really trying to cover for them that much that our mind wasn't willing to jump to the reason the adversary attacked them? (And I'm talking about while we in, not whether we even think there is an adversary today).
Maybe I'm not making any sense. I'm just trying to understand how we really took the "attack of the adversary" saying as meaning it's not the leader's fault. Or was it not the saying itself, but rather some of us weren't ready to go there with our thinking? That we'd rather believe VP and LCM's devouring of the flock was because of OUR inaction instead of THEIR (the top dawgs like RosaLIE Fox's) inaction.. (While I didn't believe LCM's devouring was our fault, but what about the rain at the Rock or a million other things we were willing to blame our unbelief instead of the leaders when they were just as "involved" as us [if not MORE]).
Were little ol' us greater than them?! Are the leaders that minuscule in their believing that little peons can override them? Then who needs their sorry arses! Be gone with them and live your own life, cause you're gonna cause it anyways and they admittedly can't help! They admittedly said it is your fault not theirs because they were believing which wasn't enough. That their believing was too weak and stupid.
Isn't that the outcome of that belief? It's the adversary's fault because YOU didn't believe and your leader's believing wasn't enough to save you. So they do you no good except criticize and put you down and take your life away.. Yeah, who needs those idiots..
Why didn't our brains take it to that full conclusion?
I'm just thinking..
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excathedra
excellent posts YOU ALL ~ hugs hugs hugs
trustandobey you make sense
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha--
when i was a wayferhead my mom was kind enough to sit through the PFAL class
the only thing she can remember is how upset she was about that little kid who died -- you know the one whose mom walked him to school or something
my mom has 9 kids -- we are all alive -- youngest is 46 and oldest is 56 -- mom is 78
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Broken Arrow
Waferheads! LOL! :lol:
Because we were a bunch of kids whose thought processes had not yet fully developed. Most of us, imo, were looking for something missing in our souls and thought we found it in TWI. In my case, I hoped I had found it.
I didn't complete my thought, sorry. My point in saying this was that there is a difference between emotions having an affect on one's health, and dying because one gives up and "stops believing".
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Too Gray Now
Good comments. Forgive me for butting in, I have not been by here for quite some time. I have had my own math to solve. :) The fact I am alive and doing great is whole 'nuther story! I have spent much of my time the last few years researching alternative treatments and approaches for cancer. Certainly the topic of belief (mine) and its impact upon my longevity has come to my mind MANY times over the years. So I am not writing this without a lot of introspection.
Anyway, Broken Arrow, on this topic of believing and living which you brought up I would like to add that we were taught that the ONLY thing preventing us from being healed was our believing. Do you remember that? And that there was no condemnation if we went to Third Aid.
It may turn out that this Wierwille teaching is true... only NOT true in the way we were told it was true. It may be that belief in "faith healing" actually gets in the way of certain healing techinques.
Yes. Its ok. I will pause until everyone reads that line again.
I am not offering this info to start a thread-war about the virtue (or not) of believing - - and the role it plays in a person's life - - or not - -
It turns out, there is some very good research being done in this area of healing of cancer by William Bengston.
His work is a game-changer IMO. He has gone about his work in a very professional way and his results are pushing hard against conventional wisdom in both science and circles of faith.
For example, he has noted that in using his healing technique that if the people 'believe" that God will heal the person, or that they will perform the healing... then the healing results are lessened. This is certainly opposite of everything we learned in our days in the Way... or nearly any church for that matter. His results are clinically confirmed.
Bengston video intro
I will butt out now. Thanks for considering this remarkable piece of information. Many people may be dying to know it. And the topic seemed an appropriate segue for me to introduce it.
This is an excellent thread and deserves to carry on. If this was a de-reail... forgive me, please.
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year2027
God first
thanks everybody
I been enjoying this topic
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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excathedra
(((((((((((((( too gray now )))))))))))))))
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Ham
in other words.. correct me if I'm wrong.
"any port in the storm"..
I dunno.. if we were born in India.. or some place else.. would we have hung out a shingle for Shiva..
my dad.. seemed to go through this process of self- and everything realization with sadness..
at least as I remember..
I'll say more, as appropriate..
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Ham
but back to the "you die.. when you stop believing.."
isn't the claim.. if you stop believing, you die?
that would mathematically speaking, be equivalent to.. "you will not die, if you do not stop believing.."
It's the contra positive to the original claim..
the problem is.. they didn't define "believing".. "believing".. what? or is it just raw "believing".. or is it..
what?
if it's "raw believing".. what da hell is that?
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Ham
I'm sorry.. if I've asked too much.. I often do that..
what the hell do we often ask for.. yeah, too much..
we are all the same..
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Ham
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Ham
too many cops.. you'll have to read the next verse..
I wish people here would assign me "album of the week"..
people here, don't be long.. don't be very long..
sitting on a corn flake.. for the van to come..
sitting in an English Garden.. waiting for the sum to come..
I can't completely envisualize that..
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Ham
how does FEEL TO BE ONE OF THE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE..
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waysider
I think it may be the "1/2 baked" variety.
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Calavicci
I just can't stand to here these words: "I'm believing for...". Wouldn't be correct English to rather say "I believe that God will bless me with ..(whatever)"? TWI teaches "pistis" is an action word. I thought it was a noun. Am I wrong? Nowhere else have I heard this distinct variation of that word utilized as I hear among the "household". My wife does it, and I try not to show how I cringe when she says it. I am gradually chipping away at that. It will take time, considering her experience with "da ministry" goes back, off-and-on, to the mid-eighties, whereas I have been in only about a decade, soon after the LCM departure.
If I am wrong about the word "pistis" please let me know.
It has really begun to grate on my nerves, although it has bothered me like an itch you can't scratch, for years now.
I call these annoying catchphrases, that are the exclusive domain of TWI, "way-isms". Sure I'm not the only one who thought of that.
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waysider
Noun, verb, pronoun, tuna fish sandwich, '58 Buick Special------call it whatever you want.-------It's still a delusional fallacy to think you can change things in the physical realm, for better or worse, by virtue of your thoughts. In the original PLAF (The Wonder Class), Wierwille called it the "magic" of believing. I think he borrowed that term from someone whose name evades me. None the less, it's nonsense. People literally died trying to prove that the "law" of believing was valid. That's reprehensible.
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Human without the bean
My baby said she's traveling on the one after 909.
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Human without the bean
I remember I got The Beatles back together
in the late 70's (in my head) when I bought all of their solo albums and played them endlessly. Then, I read a book that put out a very bad light about them and subsequently, that dispelled my belief in them and I destroyed all of their albums. 
It been an expensive reinvestment. I have many of their albums again. It's sort of like twi after I ran into them. They brainwashed me into another counterfeit belief about how to believe in God and how to believe the right things.
Things are (in general) I have to admit getting better every day that I am no longer w/ twi. :)
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Albert Cliffe
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Broken Arrow
I had a good friend who died of cancer, ex-wafer. He started fellowshipping with a group some would call "name it and claim it". He kept confessing and confessing and confessing and claiming his healing. The he died. The problem with this "magic of believing" thing is that it kept him from dying peacefully, He was always "fighting" and claiming, and confessing. It was very sad, really.
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Broken Arrow
Yeah Ham, any port in the storm is exactly what I'm saying. I don't know what "shingle for Shiva is", but it sounds about right.
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sirguessalot
fwiw...while i dont fully agree with Becker, Denial of Death is perhaps one of the most important and revealing works on this topic. Sobering view of the times.
Joe Campbell's Monomyth is another.
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