Groucho, on that particular topic - gosh. You took me back - another couple and we drove up for one of the AOS shows the first week they ran it, rented a car for the trip and made it a kind of get away weekend. Went up, got rooms, spent the night. There were people that knew we were coming. I wasn't expecting a reception but I expected to be welcomed by old friends and see the New Place.
It was a s--thole for want of a better word. Let's stop being nice about it. ::biglaugh: (as if)
Oh it was clean enough but it had that cheesey put-on feel that said home grown. People had given money, raised money, sent money, shared money - I mean there was a gravy train of buck biscuits going up there for a good year before it finally got moving. Then we get up there and we're still trudging all over the place to get inside the entrance, and many poor souls marching all over the property further than we did. It felt - old, already. And the production was - well, we know what that was, that horse is so dead the flies won't even lay up for a rest stop on it anymore. It was like a five pound hammer trying to knock a marshmallow into a cricket's mouth.
We visited for awhile aftterwards and found the whole place to be kind of dark and dingy feeling, as you say. And best of all - after all the years I'd worked in Way Productions - it was like I was expected to ooh and ahh at the privilege to see the backstage, which was a complete mess and looked far more half baked than I would have expected. I was underwhelmed to say the least. As usual though I could see the technical people were on it and working their but ts off.
We left that night so we'd get back Monday mid-morning. So we're driving along, kinda chatting and then after an hour or so, we got to talking about the production and it took a couple minutes of yeah this was nice and that was good and then finally one of us (don't remember who of the four) finally said it - "It didn't seem right, something about it...." and we spent the next couple hours driving along in the early wee hours of the morning going over the whole thing.
We were all honest about it. It simply didn't really leave the viewer with an elevated, glorified view of Christ and our relationship together in the "body of Christ". He wasn't "absent" but He wasn't present either. He was just sort of talked about. Certainly it's a difficult concept to illustrate on a stage but the opportunity was completely missed. I realized what a sophomoric level of understanding AOS depicted.
The idea of putting all the emphasis on the people and the "man of God" as empowered with the "9 manifestations" didn't have enough context and content to balance it all out. I called a friend at Wayfer Central the next week and mentioned a couple things, wondering if there was any plan to revisit the content and direction of the production and the answer was nope - it was pretty much a done deal but there were others who had had similar thoughts on it too.
Makes me sound like a real pug - "what would you have done different, O Genius?"..........not being an architect I don't know but it would have been better than that, I guarantee.
It represented perfectly the gnarly back stabbing dark hole that The Way Nash had become, so on that count it was perfect.
Old fish wrapped in old newspaper and left out in the sun I know but there it is - sits like duck.
”From the least to the greatest, all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit. They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. 'Peace, peace,' they say, when there is no peace. Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when I punish them," says the LORD.
I heard a story one time where that pfal class use to be one class, and then it was broken up into three class's, is their any truth to that, by breaking that one class up, power grabbing control of people by division of class. .
I heard a story one time where that pfal class use to be one class, and then it was broken up into three class's, is their any truth to that, by breaking that one class up, power grabbing control of people by division of class. .
At one time, PFAL was 13 sessions. The 13th session was optional and concerned itself with "speaking in tongues with interpretation" and "prophesy". This session was later removed and replaced with the Intermediate Class, which covered the same basic materials in an expanded form. (ie: excellor sessions) Also included in the 13th session was a teaching on "The Unforgivable Sin", which is a subject that is addressed in the Advanced Class. As far as I know, the other materials covered in the Advanced Class were never part of the basic PFAL format.
Big time power grab their, "The Unforgivable Sin" trick, sure if one wants to mock at the power of Yahweh that is in his called out ones, then mock away at it; but the way did the control the spirit trick.
I remember some time in 1986 or '87, when many of the leaders who had been kicked out of TWI were going around the country and talking to whoever would listen, somebody ran the video of AOS, using the pause and rewind buttons, asking "What did it just say?" "What does that mean?", and pointing out what was going on visually at the same time. Nearly the very first words, and nearly the very last, were "We are PROUD!" The actions on the stage often contradicted the words of the narration.
The flesh color of the Seed-of-the Serpent's costume was supposed to represent the truth that the SotS was still a living human being. When the spirits killed the girlfriend of the guy who would become Rainbow Man, there was a video special effect that represented murder. Later on, as Rainbow Man was developing his superpowers, there was a special gesture he made that was supposed to represent receiving revelation from the True God.
At the high point of the production, when Rainbow Man is standing at the top of the set holding the unconscious SotS in his arms, he reaches up making the special revelation gesture, then brings the elbow of the same arm down on the SotS' head. He then drops the limp SotS to the ground, and the video reprises the special effect indicating murder.
So.... the highpoint of AtoS, at least on the video, was the Man of God receiving revelation from the True God to murder a helpless human being!
I have repented before the Lord Jesus Christ for my involvement with The Way International.
I remember some time in 1986 or '87, when many of the leaders who had been kicked out of TWI were going around the country and talking to whoever would listen, somebody ran the video of AOS, using the pause and rewind buttons, asking "What did it just say?" "What does that mean?", and pointing out what was going on visually at the same time. Nearly the very first words, and nearly the very last, were "We are PROUD!" The actions on the stage often contradicted the words of the narration.
The flesh color of the Seed-of-the Serpent's costume was supposed to represent the truth that the SotS was still a living human being. When the spirits killed the girlfriend of the guy who would become Rainbow Man, there was a video special effect that represented murder. Later on, as Rainbow Man was developing his superpowers, there was a special gesture he made that was supposed to represent receiving revelation from the True God.
At the high point of the production, when Rainbow Man is standing at the top of the set holding the unconscious SotS in his arms, he reaches up making the special revelation gesture, then brings the elbow of the same arm down on the SotS' head. He then drops the limp SotS to the ground, and the video reprises the special effect indicating murder.
So.... the highpoint of AtoS, at least on the video, was the Man of God receiving revelation from the True God to murder a helpless human being!
I have repented before the Lord Jesus Christ for my involvement with The Way International.
Love,
Steve
Of course, the "knockout blow" preceding the murder was Rainbow Man using HEALING on the SotS,
which knocked them out. The obvious response to this being silly is that you can't look too
closely at this sort of thing- which completely negates the entire production, since the
entire thing is based on the claim that you CAN split hairs on this visually and make a
production where every gesture has a specific meaning.
I heard a story one time where that pfal class use to be one class, and then it was broken up into three class's, is their any truth to that, by breaking that one class up, power grabbing control of people by division of class. .
At one time, PFAL was 13 sessions. The 13th session was optional and concerned itself with "speaking in tongues with interpretation" and "prophesy". This session was later removed and replaced with the Intermediate Class, which covered the same basic materials in an expanded form. (ie: excellor sessions) Also included in the 13th session was a teaching on "The Unforgivable Sin", which is a subject that is addressed in the Advanced Class. As far as I know, the other materials covered in the Advanced Class were never part of the basic PFAL format.
You have to go back a bit further.
As documented in the thread "the way:living in wonderland"
(I bumped it up before to make it easier for you to find),
in 1953, vpw read about BG Leonard and his classes. He found out that a
class was currently IN PROGRESS, went there, and bulled his way in,
demanding to be allowed to take the class in progress.
Leonard permitted it. A few months later, vpw took his class again
"as a grad" and brought a few twi people with him.
A few months after THAT (still in 1953), vpw went to Leonard, and
asked for permission to run Leonard's class locally one time for the
benefit of the locals. Leonard permitted it. vpw ran a class,
and sent Leonard a class photo for his scrapbook.
When vpw ran that class, he told Leonard he was running Leonard's
class one time only. He told the students "this is MY class on
"Receiving The Holy Spirit Today" and made no mention of anyone else.
He taught Leonard's material entirely- the students that came with
him to Leonard's class, he automatically considered them grads of
"his" class whether or not they sat through "his" class.
vpw then continued to run Leonard's class and called it his own.
Shortly after that, he completed taking apart JE Stiles' book on
the Holy Spirit, and reconstructed it as the "white book"
(Receiving the Holy Spirit Today.) It was Stiles book with some
cosmetic changes in its first edition.
As time passed, vpw took material from Bullinger, and added it to
both the book and the class. What resulted was the Power for
Abundant Living class- an amalgam of Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger.
As more material was added (with a few other authors here and there
with small additions), the one class became expanded eventually into
three classes. Some of Leonard's stuff was in each level.
Don't think that "research means you search again" and
"we search again what twi's already done"
were new to the 1990s.
People who left in 1989 were hearing that from corps grads
into the 1990s.
(Yes, I was hearing that-at least the second quote, not the first.
Others heard the first.)
The fact sheet "For Those Who Want to Know" published in about 1979 pretty much states this, too.
"Part of research is not to find something new in the Word, but to establish in your own heart the inherent and inerrant accuracy of the truths of God's Word for yourself."
That statement assumes several things that VPW never proved to begin with. The first being that the whole Bible (he calls God's Word) is inerrant (without error). In my view, the statement really says "study VP's teachings over and over and don't try to do your own research."
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waysider
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socks
Groucho, on that particular topic - gosh. You took me back - another couple and we drove up for one of the AOS shows the first week they ran it, rented a car for the trip and made it a kind of get away weekend. Went up, got rooms, spent the night. There were people that knew we were coming. I wasn't expecting a reception but I expected to be welcomed by old friends and see the New Place.
It was a s--thole for want of a better word. Let's stop being nice about it.
::biglaugh: (as if)
Oh it was clean enough but it had that cheesey put-on feel that said home grown. People had given money, raised money, sent money, shared money - I mean there was a gravy train of buck biscuits going up there for a good year before it finally got moving. Then we get up there and we're still trudging all over the place to get inside the entrance, and many poor souls marching all over the property further than we did. It felt - old, already. And the production was - well, we know what that was, that horse is so dead the flies won't even lay up for a rest stop on it anymore. It was like a five pound hammer trying to knock a marshmallow into a cricket's mouth.
We visited for awhile aftterwards and found the whole place to be kind of dark and dingy feeling, as you say. And best of all - after all the years I'd worked in Way Productions - it was like I was expected to ooh and ahh at the privilege to see the backstage, which was a complete mess and looked far more half baked than I would have expected. I was underwhelmed to say the least. As usual though I could see the technical people were on it and working their but ts off.
We left that night so we'd get back Monday mid-morning. So we're driving along, kinda chatting and then after an hour or so, we got to talking about the production and it took a couple minutes of yeah this was nice and that was good and then finally one of us (don't remember who of the four) finally said it - "It didn't seem right, something about it...." and we spent the next couple hours driving along in the early wee hours of the morning going over the whole thing.
We were all honest about it. It simply didn't really leave the viewer with an elevated, glorified view of Christ and our relationship together in the "body of Christ". He wasn't "absent" but He wasn't present either. He was just sort of talked about. Certainly it's a difficult concept to illustrate on a stage but the opportunity was completely missed. I realized what a sophomoric level of understanding AOS depicted.
The idea of putting all the emphasis on the people and the "man of God" as empowered with the "9 manifestations" didn't have enough context and content to balance it all out. I called a friend at Wayfer Central the next week and mentioned a couple things, wondering if there was any plan to revisit the content and direction of the production and the answer was nope - it was pretty much a done deal but there were others who had had similar thoughts on it too.
Makes me sound like a real pug - "what would you have done different, O Genius?"..........not being an architect I don't know but it would have been better than that, I guarantee.
It represented perfectly the gnarly back stabbing dark hole that The Way Nash had become, so on that count it was perfect.
Old fish wrapped in old newspaper and left out in the sun I know but there it is - sits like duck.
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teachmevp
I heard a story one time where that pfal class use to be one class, and then it was broken up into three class's, is their any truth to that, by breaking that one class up, power grabbing control of people by division of class. .
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waysider
At one time, PFAL was 13 sessions. The 13th session was optional and concerned itself with "speaking in tongues with interpretation" and "prophesy". This session was later removed and replaced with the Intermediate Class, which covered the same basic materials in an expanded form. (ie: excellor sessions) Also included in the 13th session was a teaching on "The Unforgivable Sin", which is a subject that is addressed in the Advanced Class. As far as I know, the other materials covered in the Advanced Class were never part of the basic PFAL format.
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teachmevp
Big time power grab their, "The Unforgivable Sin" trick, sure if one wants to mock at the power of Yahweh that is in his called out ones, then mock away at it; but the way did the control the spirit trick.
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dmiller
Never made it inside that auditorium myself. The one time I tried to, I was denied access. It was at ROA 85.
I'd made no donations for the building thereof, and I was leaving twi then anyway, so it was no skin off of my nose.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a "whited sepulcher". Clean looking on the outside, but inside - - - ???
I didn't see AOS until 2 or 3 years later, when JAL was wandering around the country and showed it here in Minney-soda.
He was on one of his trips promoting the (then somewhat new) CES. I'd been invited to a "public ex" he was doing there.
He showed up at a River Road Fellowship (hosted by Vic Barnard), and played the video for those in attendance.
I remember thinking (about AOS once I'd seen and heard it) - - - "What a dark/ dark/ DARK presentation this is"!
I hated the subject matter/ I hated the music/ the overall feeling (once done) was completely depressing.
And the prez of twi had the "leading role" in that production. How fitting.
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Steve Lortz
I remember some time in 1986 or '87, when many of the leaders who had been kicked out of TWI were going around the country and talking to whoever would listen, somebody ran the video of AOS, using the pause and rewind buttons, asking "What did it just say?" "What does that mean?", and pointing out what was going on visually at the same time. Nearly the very first words, and nearly the very last, were "We are PROUD!" The actions on the stage often contradicted the words of the narration.
The flesh color of the Seed-of-the Serpent's costume was supposed to represent the truth that the SotS was still a living human being. When the spirits killed the girlfriend of the guy who would become Rainbow Man, there was a video special effect that represented murder. Later on, as Rainbow Man was developing his superpowers, there was a special gesture he made that was supposed to represent receiving revelation from the True God.
At the high point of the production, when Rainbow Man is standing at the top of the set holding the unconscious SotS in his arms, he reaches up making the special revelation gesture, then brings the elbow of the same arm down on the SotS' head. He then drops the limp SotS to the ground, and the video reprises the special effect indicating murder.
So.... the highpoint of AtoS, at least on the video, was the Man of God receiving revelation from the True God to murder a helpless human being!
I have repented before the Lord Jesus Christ for my involvement with The Way International.
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
Of course, the "knockout blow" preceding the murder was Rainbow Man using HEALING on the SotS,
which knocked them out. The obvious response to this being silly is that you can't look too
closely at this sort of thing- which completely negates the entire production, since the
entire thing is based on the claim that you CAN split hairs on this visually and make a
production where every gesture has a specific meaning.
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Steve Lortz
Looking back, the whole thing seems blasphemous.
Love,
Steve
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WordWolf
You have to go back a bit further.
As documented in the thread "the way:living in wonderland"
(I bumped it up before to make it easier for you to find),
in 1953, vpw read about BG Leonard and his classes. He found out that a
class was currently IN PROGRESS, went there, and bulled his way in,
demanding to be allowed to take the class in progress.
Leonard permitted it. A few months later, vpw took his class again
"as a grad" and brought a few twi people with him.
A few months after THAT (still in 1953), vpw went to Leonard, and
asked for permission to run Leonard's class locally one time for the
benefit of the locals. Leonard permitted it. vpw ran a class,
and sent Leonard a class photo for his scrapbook.
When vpw ran that class, he told Leonard he was running Leonard's
class one time only. He told the students "this is MY class on
"Receiving The Holy Spirit Today" and made no mention of anyone else.
He taught Leonard's material entirely- the students that came with
him to Leonard's class, he automatically considered them grads of
"his" class whether or not they sat through "his" class.
vpw then continued to run Leonard's class and called it his own.
Shortly after that, he completed taking apart JE Stiles' book on
the Holy Spirit, and reconstructed it as the "white book"
(Receiving the Holy Spirit Today.) It was Stiles book with some
cosmetic changes in its first edition.
As time passed, vpw took material from Bullinger, and added it to
both the book and the class. What resulted was the Power for
Abundant Living class- an amalgam of Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger.
As more material was added (with a few other authors here and there
with small additions), the one class became expanded eventually into
three classes. Some of Leonard's stuff was in each level.
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teachmevp
Thanks WordWolf, for all the work you put into that thread, what an eye opener, thanks.
When did this Mark and Avoid thing start being use as a power grab, it just seems the way
has mastered the art of it?
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WordWolf
vpw used it surgically from the get-go. That's why 2 different Corps groups
(the first, aka "Zero" Corps and another) were kicked out.
The other group was permitted to humbly approach vpw and beg to be reinstated as a Corps class
so long as they were willing to write out an oath of allegiance to vpw himself.
(It's documented in "vp and me in wonderland.")
vpw used it here and there down the years. Basically, anyone who ran the risk of causing him
problems was kicked out, sent on a slow bus, and their home area was blanketed with a smear
campaign so that, when they got home, nobody would believe anything they said.
When 1988-1989 rolled around, lcm tried it on a grand scale, where anyone who wouldn't
swear an oath of allegiance to lcm himself (as he agreed, a promise to "follow him BLINDLY")
would be kicked out and nasty rumors spread around them. Since he was stupid enough to do it
to so many people at once, the process wasn't anything nearly as successful as he hoped.
Locals who'd worked with their local leaders and KNEW them would not accept the word of a
virtual STRANGER who said they were "corrupt".
twi's continued to use it as a measure, but until about 1993-1994 they kept it in reserve.
They had to adjust to most of the people leaving in 1989-1990.
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teachmevp
That is mind-binding stuff their, WordWolf; have you heard of those sunday night teachings by VeePee for sale,
I thought about buying one, but after listening to the Forth of July teaching awhile back, their was just something about
that teaching I couldn't put my finger on. VeePee power grabbed someone else's work on the Forth of July, and
put on a show, that teaching VeePee gave sounded like a show. It seems all those sunday night teaching tapes
were about the way, with some kind a teaching stuck in there, who was behind the recording of those Masterful
Art of the sunday promote the way teaching tapes, was there more to it?
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dmiller
I've got a (pretty much) complete set of SNS tapes, from 1975 to 1986 (thereabouts).
EVERY SNS tape promoted twi, and it's "superiority" when it came to "biblical teaching".
It was NOT unusual for twi to denigrate others, to gain their own "superiority" regardless of topic.
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teachmevp
Superiority, thanks dmiller, that is what I heard in those tapes, that explains a lot for me.
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dmiller
well - - - Shucks. We were "being taught the Word, as it hadn't been known since the 1st century".
None of us (then) expected anything less.
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teachmevp
I did learned a lot of word from them tapes, I learn to listen between the topics, word topics, way topics, way word topics.
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dmiller
I used to have the address of a person from (location will be left unmentioned) who has all of vpw's teachings on CD.
All of them, from SNS tapes. If I recollect the price was around 80 bucks. I was offered the chance to buy them.
I declined. Nuggets of truth there (to be sure), but not enough "nuggets" to make it worthwhile.
And - - - all those "nuggets" came from someone/ somewhere else. I don't support (any more) plagiaristic "teachers".
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teachmevp
I learned a lot of little nuggets, learning about all this plagiarism the way has pull off throughout the years is trippe stuff.
I read somewhere, where those CD were put on public domine, did VeePee do that deliberate, or did VeePee rip himself off.
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dmiller
Every SNS tape I have, has no © on it. All "public domain" as far as I'm concerned.
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penworks
The fact sheet "For Those Who Want to Know" published in about 1979 pretty much states this, too.
"Part of research is not to find something new in the Word, but to establish in your own heart the inherent and inerrant accuracy of the truths of God's Word for yourself."
That statement assumes several things that VPW never proved to begin with. The first being that the whole Bible (he calls God's Word) is inerrant (without error). In my view, the statement really says "study VP's teachings over and over and don't try to do your own research."
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So_crates
I think your mistaking these people for alpha males.
A true alph doesn't need to grab power, he has power.
These are beta wannabes.
SoCrates
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