come on, twi's playing pick and choose. NOT intrested in ANYTHING they have to say. I'll read the letter for laughs. It's BS
When they call back all the good, honest and Godly corp people they canned and step down themselves, i'll believe twi has changed. As far as i'm concerned it's all just press. Will NEVER matter if they're communicating inteligable facts or not. The whole picture is what counts!!
Mark and Avoid lcm. Throw out all literature he wrote also. Don't pick and choose.
Begin doing all your own yard and house work. Don't pick and choose.
Level the pay field. Don't pick and choose. (include EVERY benifiet)
Make a right of way for access to the EX wayers to the burial site in the woods. Don't pick and choose.
About two years ago I was thrown out of TWI primarily for posting on Grease Spot Cafe. Will I be getting an invitation to return d'ya think? :D-->
Here are a few of my thoughts on Mr. Platig's letter to JPW.
Points A, B, & C following are taken from Mr. Platig's intro:
A. It is unprecedented for TWI to respond to attacks posted on the internet - they are responding because Mrs. W is so important and the nature of the innacuracies.Mr.Platig laso claims that the "household" was not informed of the nursing home move because it was a family matter.
Does this mean that the threads about VPW being an abuser of women and a research hack aren't innaccurate? Or maybe as inaccurate? This is the worst thing that GS has ever put out? What's really going on here?
And since when is anything regarding TWI top leadership "just a family matter"? A high-profile person like Mrs. W. goes into a nursing home and they decide not to tell anyone?
B. Accuses JPW of putting his personal agenda over his mother's health.
This, of course, is Harve (reader-of-teachings)'s personal opinion, and classic TWI tactics. Confuse the issue by questioning the person's motives.
C. TWI claims that Wanda informed JPW's sister, who got the agreement of other siblings, JPW claims that it was done without their knowledge.
"He said/She said" until this unnamed sister weighs in with additional evidence.
Points 1- 4 are from Mr. Platig's supposed "rebuttals" to JP accusations and implications:
1. Harve argues about what JP disagrees "without equivocation" with.
It is obvious from his letter that he disagrees with the assertion by the BOD that the action was taken with his and his sisters' consent.
Harve plays word games to make it look like JP disagrees with medical advice, or with his mother getting the best care. How many times I saw this in TWI, confuse the issue by taking what the person said and twisting it just slightly.
This is good ol' TWI leadership at it's best. Confuse the issue, blame the victim, make it look like the person with the complaint is saying something that they are not really saying. Classic.
Mr. Platig mentions that the care is better than that which Wanda Wierwille can provide. He does not address JPW's actual point, which is not that an individual, Wanda Wierwille, can duplicate the care in a nursing home, but that a huge corporation can.
Harve suggests that there is nothing to prevent JP from taking Mrs. W into his (JP's) home.
Nowhere is JPW suggesting that being in a nursing home is bad, nor do I think that JP, or his sisters taking over Mrs. W's care is comparable to an international organization with millions in assets doing the same. JPW is not suggesting that she go to his home, but that TWI has the resources to make her comfortable in her own home.
Mr.Platig claims that JPW states that the nursing home care is better than what is available at TWI; what he actual says is that the care at the nursing home is better than what was received at TWI.
2. Platig claims that TWI is meeting it's ethical obligations to Mrs. W. Whatever "assets" Mrs. Wierwille has are supposedly covering the expenses, and if that fails, "government programs" will take over.
Harve accuses JPW of saying that TWI has abandoned his mother.
Apparently TWI is meeting its "legal" obligations, but there sure is disagreement over what "ethical" means. They can't pay for an old lady's nursing care, but they can pay for 24-hour servants for the BOD. How many GS folks had as their Corps assignment "The Wierwille home" or "the Allen Home", or ironing Martindang's clothes? How many staff members are mowing the lawn and cooking meal's over at Rosalie's place?
And if there is a shortfall, why no problem... welfare can take over!
3. Harve disputes JP's implication that Mrs. W's care was substandard, suggesting that JP could have brought her into his home at any time and reiterating the claim that JP's unnamed sister had power of attorney and was legally the only one who could make those decisions. Harve claims that JP failed to respond to letters suggesting care options.
Another case of He said-She said. However, this claim that JP could have brought her into his home at any time is a distraction. Why should she not have remained in her own home. Does JP Wierwille have access to millions in "Abundant Sharing"? The Wierwille's barely were given time to pay their respects to their brother when he died, since they were barred from the property for all but the smallest period of time.
4. Platig denies that Wanda Wierwille was portrayed as a family spokeperson.
Oh geez, just read the friggin' letter that she sent out! While she is never overtly called "family spokesperson" Wanda Wierwille, she is the one who communicates on their behalf.
Platig closes by stating that he will not retract anything, but that JPW should.
I for one would like to know which sister is the unnamed holder of power-of-attorney.
I would like to see JP Wierwille's response to all this.
Mr. Platig wants GS to provide a forum for his views, I would like to have equal time on THEIR web site!
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 26, 2003 at 21:22.]
ok, ok, i read SOME of hp's response. The very beggining says it all. READ BETWEEN THE LINES.
They are responding in the same forum?
He used his own webpage. TWI, USE YOUR WEBPAGE, NOT GS!!.
i thought this was a forum for twiERS and ex twi ers. NOT a mouthpiece for the way international.
Everyone here, who has left twi knows the bottom line. By experience and comparison to the word of God. We have found twi lacking and so left or got thrown out for continuing to do that which was right and good in the sight of the Lord.
I say; twi, if you've got any guts put it on your website, right next to your explanation of the lcm incident.
You havn't got a hair if you don't put 'em BOTH up there for all to read.
After reading Harve Platig's rebuttal of J.P's letter, LOTS of thoughts have run though my mind. Here are some, in no particular order:
That THIS ISSUE would be the ONLY ONE raised by posters here at GS to garner an "official" TWI response, is more than worthy of a bit of eye-brow raising. That the response did not come from "The Right Reverend Rivenbark" herself, but rather from an "underling", is also interesting. It would seem that even in this instance, she is not willing to personally put herself on the line, electing instead to remain silent behind her title, covering her---well, you know! So again, as others here have asked, why THIS ISSUE? Why do they care what the readers of Greaspot Cafe believe about their treatment of Mrs. Wierwille? By years of stoney silence, they've certainly indicated that they don't give a rat's hindquarters for what we believe about the actions of her husband, The Founding President of The Way. They've never publicly defended their treatment of any of the many thousands of past Way followers. I believe this unprecidented breach in "the wall of silence" came because the accusation this time originated from one of the Wierwille children, and as I have said before, "such an unimpeachable source" has the power to perhaps shake some of the remaining "Waybots" out of their stupor. Action had to be taken. Given their inability to attract more than a handful of new ("abundance sharing") followers during the past number of years, millions of dollars are potentially at stake!
However, a question I raised in my last post still begs to be answered: Why have not ALL the Wierwille children responded publicly "as a cohesive unit" to the issue of TWI's treatment of their mother? Certainly, they all have opinions on this issue. If all the Wierwille siblings are in one accord, why didn't they all sign that rather incendiary letter posted on J.P.'s sight? There is much more to this story than what is stated in either J.P or Harve's letters. But I don't believe we'll be hearing from The BOD of The Way International on this issue again (or any other issue, for that matter), until J.P., and/or his siblings comes forward again to offer detailed evidence of his/their greivances against The Way.
I have to admit that I found J.P.'s letter a bit confusing: Given the reported lack of access he and his siblings have encountered in regard to their mother at her home, why would he feel that she should have received round the clock care on the grounds of The Way? If my mother were dying of Alzheimer's, I certainly would not agree to any care that would restrict my access to her, especially if I believed that her caregivers potentially DID NOT have her best interest at heart. J.P. indicated that she was now receiving the care that she should have received at Headquarters and that, in her more lucid moments, Mrs. Wierwille has said that she does not wish to go back to her home there. This is a good thing, is it not?
So what is the grievance---that TWI is not fully providing for her financial well-being? They have emphatically stated that Mrs. Wierwille's round the clock care is being covered 100% from a number of different sources (though not in ANY way from follower contributions). I do not have first hand experience in such matters as the financial arrangements necessary for nursing home care (thank God!). But I've been told that, in many cases, liquidation of a person's entire assets has been necessary in order for it to continue. Perhaps this is the rub. After all that Mrs. Wierwille has suffered and sacrificed at the hands of TWI, she will, in the end, have been sucked dry. Mentally. Emotionally. Financially. And TWI will have in it's coffers, assets that should rightfully be hers and her children's.
Just a bit of speculation---which may be totally wrong. In any case, I'm still very much hoping to hear the full story about this and countless other issues surrounding TWI.
Hey that was great, best writing I've seen from Harve in years. His letter didn't contain one pious platitude or quote of scripture. Do it again!
Seth
P.S. Off-topic: Hey Excathedra I know it's early but, what are your plans for post 5000?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~~~ Herbert Spencer
Here is the portion of JP's letter concerning his mother's health:
quote: As of this writing, Mom is in a nursing home in St. Mary's and is finally receiving the medications she has needed. Why she has not received them until this time is not yet clear. She is much more lucid in her current surroundings. In her clearer moments, it is indeed interesting to observe that she does not want to go back to The Way International.
By all that is right, she should have been cared for in her own home. 24 hour care should have been provided. The associated costs should have fallen to The Way International by virtue of promises made by my father. Ethically, The Way International owes her that. ...
I took this to mean that JP had wanted his mom to receive better care while she was at HQ (24-hour nursing care, medications), but is now glad to have her out of there so she can get adequate care. He says he is unsure as to why she had not received the proper medications while she was at HQ. (Was the BOD clueless of what her illness was? Were they relying on prayer and ministering to heal her, and so did not administer medications? Was Mrs. W refusing to take them?)
Since the Wierwille children were not allowed on grounds, it must have been very difficult to get information on what was being done for their mother's medical care, let alone observe that care being given.
In a true Christian situation, one would think that the BOD would have had roundtable discussions with the Wierwille family as to what would be the best course of action on their mother's behalf, with the final say going to the sibling with power of attorney. Then the BOD would have been happy to have the children come and go from the family home, and see how well TWI was caring for their mother.
It seemed to me that the Wierwille children were trying to let their mother stay in her home (don't most people want their sunset years to be in familiar surroundings?), while keeping in contact with her the best they could (seeing her off grounds, as THEY were not allowed in their family home!). It is very difficult to keep track of her medical condition this way. Sounds to me like TWI had all the information and resources available, but did not do enough, while the children did the best they could with the information they had.
So BOD, how does it feel to make your own beds and vacuum your own floors, seeing as how you now know that you shouldn't have Staff assigned to do it?
Obviously, twi is "picking a battle that they think they can win." ALL LCM-RELATED BATTLES will be left alone.
IMO this situation escalated as a result of twi's hard-heartedness and twisted policies: 1) mark & avoid, 2) sanctified "household" bs and 3) damage control (to name a few).
Will twi ever get it RIGHT? The mismanagement of twi and spiritual abuse is a study in "lording over God's heritage." There are MAJOR REASONS why twi continues to spiral downward.
Yep, RFR has an image to protect. I'm sure she wants all the remaining Wayfers, who probably haven't had the "privilege" of being around her to learn what she's really like, to buy her syrupy sweet demeanor.
A lady doesn't muss her skirt or dirty her hands, don't you know? That's what (yes)men are for.
Yep, RFR has an image to protect. I'm sure she wants all the remaining Wayfers, who probably haven't had the "privilege" of being around her to learn what she's really like, to buy her syrupy sweet demeanor.
A lady doesn't muss her skirt or dirty her hands, don't you know? That's what (yes)men are for.
Linda Z
Yup! And having lived in the South for over 2 decades, I know her version of that cultural mindset; the syrupy sweet demeanor while she lies to your face and then stabs you in the back, the 'Scarlett O'Hara'-style scheming and schmoozing, all of that clearly exhibited and 'mastered' by Rosilee herself.
Like I said in an earlier post, she's like Scarlett O'Hara on crack.
Yeah....Harve's letter (or whoever wrote it) comes across as condescending and heavy-handed. Typically corporate, untypically Christ-like.
IMO twi has ensnared themselves and with gnashing of teeth they will NOT recover. With arrogant pride, they refuse to acknowledge that THEY HAVE STRAYED FAR FROM THE HEART OF GOD.
The humble of heart will continue to exit and find a safe, loving haven elsewhere.
I think that good old Harve will be held in high regard for confronting all of us internet "knucklheads" with "the truth". It is intriguing that once many in The Way prided themselves in holding forth the truth of the Word of God. Now they must settle for holding forth "the words of the law."
Well, if this is so important for them to save face about, what about all the other "misleading" speeches that defamed and demoralized people.....
I just cannot buy the idea that they are so full of good intentions all of a sudden...does a leapord change its spots..not lately.
Im with RR on this one...
And if they are so "biblical" ( I use the term loosely with any Way related activity)
I know some of you have read these several times before, but for those who haven't, these are excerpts from The Sublte Power of Spiritual Abuse.
Identifying The Abusive System
1. Power Posturing
Leadership spends a lot of time focused on their own authority and reminding others of it as well. This is necessary because their spiritual authority isn?t real?based on a genuine godly character?it is postured.
If this pastor?s spiritual authority were real, he would not have to demand that others notice it.
2. Performance Preoccupation
?Power is postured and authority is legislated. Therefore, these systems are preoccupied with the performance of their members. Obedience and Submission are two important words often used. ?This system does not foster holiness or obedience to God, it merely accommodates the leaders? sick interpretation of spirituality and their need for control.
3. Unspoken Rules
When you find unspoken rules by breaking them unintentionally, you will then suffer one of two consequences: either neglect (being ignored, overlooked or shunned) or aggressive legalism (questioned, openly censured, asked to leave?in extreme cases cursed.
a. The Can?t Talk Rule: The real problem cannot be exposed because then it would have to be dealt with and things would have to change; so it must be protected behind walls of silence(neglect) or by assault (legalistic attack).If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem.
b. If noticing problems is Labeled disloyalty, lack of submission, divisiveness, and a challenge to authority, then there is only a façade of peace and unity.
4. Lack of Balance
a. Extreme Objectivism:
This system limits God to act only in those ways that we can explain, prove, or experience. It puts God in a box?..and God the Holy Bible?as if understanding and memorizing Scripture is the only way to hear from God. We are relegated to songs that commemorate how God used do things. We no longer worship the great I Am, but the great ?I Was.?
b. Extreme Subjectivism:
What is true is decided on the basis of feelings and experiences, giving more weight to them than what the bible declares. The fact that someone reads the actual Word of God does not necessarily mean that they have a word from the Lord for you. Even further, we believe it is dishonest and dangerous?simply to receive and act upon a spiritual directive because you are ?supposed to be submissive,? or because someone is ?in authority.?
5. Paranoia
There is an assumption that (1)what we say, know, or do is aresult of our being more enlightened than others; (2) others will not understand unless they become one of us; and (3) others will respond negatively.
This mentality builds a strong wall or bunker around the abusive system, isolates the abusers from scrutiny and accountability, and makes it more difficult for people to leave?because they will then be outsiders too. ?echoed in the same rhetoric: ?We must be getting really close to what God wants us to do, because Satan has renewed his attacks against us through the evil secular media!?
6. Misplaced Loyalty
a. ?We Alone Are Right?; A common way this is accomplished is by setting up a system where disloyalty to or disagreement with the leadership is construed as the same thing as disobeying God.
b. Scare Tactics; Deciding to leave their church many Christian are told horrifying things. ??Without our protection, Satan will get to your children.? ?You and your family will come under a curse.? This is spiritual blackmail and its abuse. And it does cause people to stay in abusive places.
c. Humiliation
This is done by publicly shaming, exposing or threatening to remove people from the group. ?this insures your proper allegiance, and insulates those in authority.
7. Secretive
People don?t hide what is appropriate; they hide what is inappropriate. Another reason for secrecy in a church is that the leadership has a condescending, negative view of the laity. This results in conspiracies on the leadership level.
And I would venture that the "defense of TWI" has not even been presented to the peon laity of TWI.
I have to admit that I found J.P.'s letter a bit confusing: Given the reported lack of access he and his siblings have encountered in regard to their mother at her home, why would he feel that she should have received round the clock care on the grounds of The Way?
Just from reading JPW's letter, the beef does not seem to be that the nursing home was the option, but TWI's dishonesty through it all.
JPW disputes TWI's assertion that the family was in on the decision
He implies that she was not receiving proper care before being sent to the nursing home.
From the written corresponance it does not appear that JPW is seeking to return his mother to her home, or to remove her from the nursing home. According to him,
a decision regarding his mother's care was made without consent of her children
it was apprently made, at least in part, to be convenient for TWI
TWI should have found a way to be financially responsible for her care
I don't see where Wierwille is demanding anything of substance from TWI, it looks like he is trying to set the record straight.
In order for us to be able to see the picture more clearly, we will need to hear from the unnamed sister who allegedly has the power-of-attorney (or all three of them for that matter) to confirm or deny the competing versions of this story.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Become willing to CHANGE. Think outside the box. Question the ways interpretation..woops i ment research. Whatever, be willing to say i, we have been wrong biblicly and moraly. (i'm not referring to any one incident)
Take a second honest, unbiased look as when we all showed up at the way. Don't let fear of your cohorts, loss of job, loss of respect hinder you. GOD hath not given us the spirit of fear... where's yours coming from Harve?
Just my opinion, but I think the unnamed sister's power of attorney is irrelevant to J.P.'s complaints. The way I'm reading his letter is that it was written in anger and frustration for all the years he (and probably his siblings, too) "played by the rules" set by TWI, hoping that in return his mother would receive care and consideration from them. Instead, she got handed back to the family when she became an inconvenience.
Doesn't Harvey realise that if this letter doesn't go well that he will be the official scapegoat?
He should remember how Howard Allen took the fall for the financial disaster that happened after Craiggers heavy revvie to go full time on all the corps.
Yep, his job is in jeapardy allright. I wouldn't be surprised if RosyLie didn't set it up so she had something to use against him when she's in the mood.
(Yes, I know it was a letter by commitee with 328 revisions. And that every word was scrutinsed and approved by RosyLie and a bank of lawyers. But... Harvey's name is on it.)
Just my opinion, but I think the unnamed sister's power of attorney is irrelevant to J.P.'s complaints. The way I'm reading his letter is that it was written in anger and frustration for all the years he (and probably his siblings, too) "played by the rules" set by TWI, hoping that in return his mother would receive care and consideration from them. Instead, she got handed back to the family when she became an inconvenience.
laleo,
very insightful, I think you hit the nail on the head.
...but I was mainly thinking of it as a rebuttal point to what Platig said.
If you have in writing Harve's assertion that their actions were taken with family approval and it turns out that it was bull...., that would be pretty hard for any remaining "innies" to rationalize away...hmmm, maybe not!
In the grand scheme of things...even in the SMALL scheme of things, it makes no difference to me, just like to see TWI choke on their own words...because they insisted on publishing!
Even if one of the sisters had power-of-attorney for their mom, was she given any kind of true choice?
"Mrs. _________, this is Harve Platig, the doctors say that your mother needs around-the-clock care in an Alzheimer's Unit due to her deteriorating condition. We will not under any circumstances be providing any care here at her home other than someone to cook for her and hold her hand. Sorry, the lawyers say we can't do it...laws, ya know. What is your decision Mrs. __________?"
I can empathize with JPW's frustration. Prevented from visiting his mother in her own home, at least consoled by the fact that she is being taken care of physically...oops, she's sick...you take care of her...she's your mother.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
So TWI now has exknowledged that GS and WD are real and that obviously those "in" and "out" must visit the site. Posting a Open Letter to JP instead of suggesting that there is information on TWI website I think will open the opportunity for more "innies" to visit GS just to read the letter to JP and since the site has other information - it seems a like a gamble to me for TWI.
It would have been interesting to have been in the second floor conference room listening to how they were going to handle JP posted information. Then finally coming to an some agreement to have to post an open letter to defend themselves on GS with all the words
correct and written by their lawyer. TWI has then excepted the fact that GS does effect TWI.
Not knowing all the intimate details of who has this power of attorney and who agreed on what does not really make a difference to me.
Watching how they controlled Mrs.W life and prevented free and open communication to her children. That her children did not have access to come and visit at will or make all the phone calls etc or just to take there mom on a day trip speaks for itself.
When there Brother Don died TWI controlled the time the family "out of twi" could be grounds how much time they could spend etc. If they controlled this outwardly - what privately did they control about Mrs. Wierwille and her care.
My mother took care of my stepfather for 3 years at home when he had ALZMIERS until he was not able to get out of bed into his wheelchair. If she would have had 24 hour nursing she would have kept him at home where he loved his own belongs and watching TV even if he did not know what he was watching.
Do you suppose that many of the innies are really pointly asking BOD for some real answers to why this happened to Mrs. Wiewille and they want the truth.
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George, maybe it's becaue Mrs. W. couldn't "work" for the Way anymore. Which begs the question, just what does an 8 hour day of Harvey's "work" consist of? What do ANY of them do for "work"? I've bee
excathedra
jp decided to do that site and before that.... it was on here.... ?
nervecurve
and the service
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JeffMedic
come on, twi's playing pick and choose. NOT intrested in ANYTHING they have to say. I'll read the letter for laughs. It's BS
When they call back all the good, honest and Godly corp people they canned and step down themselves, i'll believe twi has changed. As far as i'm concerned it's all just press. Will NEVER matter if they're communicating inteligable facts or not. The whole picture is what counts!!
Mark and Avoid lcm. Throw out all literature he wrote also. Don't pick and choose.
Begin doing all your own yard and house work. Don't pick and choose.
Level the pay field. Don't pick and choose. (include EVERY benifiet)
Make a right of way for access to the EX wayers to the burial site in the woods. Don't pick and choose.
twi, LIVE THE WORD, don't pick and choose.
That is the last organization i'll EVER trust.
Life is much to important to be taken seriously.
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Oakspear
About two years ago I was thrown out of TWI primarily for posting on Grease Spot Cafe. Will I be getting an invitation to return d'ya think?
:D-->
Here are a few of my thoughts on Mr. Platig's letter to JPW.
Points A, B, & C following are taken from Mr. Platig's intro:
A. It is unprecedented for TWI to respond to attacks posted on the internet - they are responding because Mrs. W is so important and the nature of the innacuracies.Mr.Platig laso claims that the "household" was not informed of the nursing home move because it was a family matter.
Does this mean that the threads about VPW being an abuser of women and a research hack aren't innaccurate? Or maybe as inaccurate? This is the worst thing that GS has ever put out? What's really going on here?
And since when is anything regarding TWI top leadership "just a family matter"? A high-profile person like Mrs. W. goes into a nursing home and they decide not to tell anyone?
B. Accuses JPW of putting his personal agenda over his mother's health.
This, of course, is Harve (reader-of-teachings)'s personal opinion, and classic TWI tactics. Confuse the issue by questioning the person's motives.
C. TWI claims that Wanda informed JPW's sister, who got the agreement of other siblings, JPW claims that it was done without their knowledge.
"He said/She said" until this unnamed sister weighs in with additional evidence.
Points 1- 4 are from Mr. Platig's supposed "rebuttals" to JP accusations and implications:
1. Harve argues about what JP disagrees "without equivocation" with.
It is obvious from his letter that he disagrees with the assertion by the BOD that the action was taken with his and his sisters' consent.
Harve plays word games to make it look like JP disagrees with medical advice, or with his mother getting the best care. How many times I saw this in TWI, confuse the issue by taking what the person said and twisting it just slightly.
This is good ol' TWI leadership at it's best. Confuse the issue, blame the victim, make it look like the person with the complaint is saying something that they are not really saying. Classic.
Mr. Platig mentions that the care is better than that which Wanda Wierwille can provide. He does not address JPW's actual point, which is not that an individual, Wanda Wierwille, can duplicate the care in a nursing home, but that a huge corporation can.
Harve suggests that there is nothing to prevent JP from taking Mrs. W into his (JP's) home.
Nowhere is JPW suggesting that being in a nursing home is bad, nor do I think that JP, or his sisters taking over Mrs. W's care is comparable to an international organization with millions in assets doing the same. JPW is not suggesting that she go to his home, but that TWI has the resources to make her comfortable in her own home.
Mr.Platig claims that JPW states that the nursing home care is better than what is available at TWI; what he actual says is that the care at the nursing home is better than what was received at TWI.
2. Platig claims that TWI is meeting it's ethical obligations to Mrs. W. Whatever "assets" Mrs. Wierwille has are supposedly covering the expenses, and if that fails, "government programs" will take over.
Harve accuses JPW of saying that TWI has abandoned his mother.
Apparently TWI is meeting its "legal" obligations, but there sure is disagreement over what "ethical" means. They can't pay for an old lady's nursing care, but they can pay for 24-hour servants for the BOD. How many GS folks had as their Corps assignment "The Wierwille home" or "the Allen Home", or ironing Martindang's clothes? How many staff members are mowing the lawn and cooking meal's over at Rosalie's place?
And if there is a shortfall, why no problem... welfare can take over!
3. Harve disputes JP's implication that Mrs. W's care was substandard, suggesting that JP could have brought her into his home at any time and reiterating the claim that JP's unnamed sister had power of attorney and was legally the only one who could make those decisions. Harve claims that JP failed to respond to letters suggesting care options.
Another case of He said-She said. However, this claim that JP could have brought her into his home at any time is a distraction. Why should she not have remained in her own home. Does JP Wierwille have access to millions in "Abundant Sharing"? The Wierwille's barely were given time to pay their respects to their brother when he died, since they were barred from the property for all but the smallest period of time.
4. Platig denies that Wanda Wierwille was portrayed as a family spokeperson.
Oh geez, just read the friggin' letter that she sent out! While she is never overtly called "family spokesperson" Wanda Wierwille, she is the one who communicates on their behalf.
Platig closes by stating that he will not retract anything, but that JPW should.
I for one would like to know which sister is the unnamed holder of power-of-attorney.
I would like to see JP Wierwille's response to all this.
Mr. Platig wants GS to provide a forum for his views, I would like to have equal time on THEIR web site!
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
[This message was edited by Oakspear on October 26, 2003 at 21:22.]
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JeffMedic
ok, ok, i read SOME of hp's response. The very beggining says it all. READ BETWEEN THE LINES.
They are responding in the same forum?
He used his own webpage. TWI, USE YOUR WEBPAGE, NOT GS!!.
i thought this was a forum for twiERS and ex twi ers. NOT a mouthpiece for the way international.
Everyone here, who has left twi knows the bottom line. By experience and comparison to the word of God. We have found twi lacking and so left or got thrown out for continuing to do that which was right and good in the sight of the Lord.
I say; twi, if you've got any guts put it on your website, right next to your explanation of the lcm incident.
You havn't got a hair if you don't put 'em BOTH up there for all to read.
Life is much to important to be taken seriously.
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Cherished Child
Wow...I'm almost speechless...But not quite.
After reading Harve Platig's rebuttal of J.P's letter, LOTS of thoughts have run though my mind. Here are some, in no particular order:
That THIS ISSUE would be the ONLY ONE raised by posters here at GS to garner an "official" TWI response, is more than worthy of a bit of eye-brow raising. That the response did not come from "The Right Reverend Rivenbark" herself, but rather from an "underling", is also interesting. It would seem that even in this instance, she is not willing to personally put herself on the line, electing instead to remain silent behind her title, covering her---well, you know! So again, as others here have asked, why THIS ISSUE? Why do they care what the readers of Greaspot Cafe believe about their treatment of Mrs. Wierwille? By years of stoney silence, they've certainly indicated that they don't give a rat's hindquarters for what we believe about the actions of her husband, The Founding President of The Way. They've never publicly defended their treatment of any of the many thousands of past Way followers. I believe this unprecidented breach in "the wall of silence" came because the accusation this time originated from one of the Wierwille children, and as I have said before, "such an unimpeachable source" has the power to perhaps shake some of the remaining "Waybots" out of their stupor. Action had to be taken. Given their inability to attract more than a handful of new ("abundance sharing") followers during the past number of years, millions of dollars are potentially at stake!
However, a question I raised in my last post still begs to be answered: Why have not ALL the Wierwille children responded publicly "as a cohesive unit" to the issue of TWI's treatment of their mother? Certainly, they all have opinions on this issue. If all the Wierwille siblings are in one accord, why didn't they all sign that rather incendiary letter posted on J.P.'s sight? There is much more to this story than what is stated in either J.P or Harve's letters. But I don't believe we'll be hearing from The BOD of The Way International on this issue again (or any other issue, for that matter), until J.P., and/or his siblings comes forward again to offer detailed evidence of his/their greivances against The Way.
I have to admit that I found J.P.'s letter a bit confusing: Given the reported lack of access he and his siblings have encountered in regard to their mother at her home, why would he feel that she should have received round the clock care on the grounds of The Way? If my mother were dying of Alzheimer's, I certainly would not agree to any care that would restrict my access to her, especially if I believed that her caregivers potentially DID NOT have her best interest at heart. J.P. indicated that she was now receiving the care that she should have received at Headquarters and that, in her more lucid moments, Mrs. Wierwille has said that she does not wish to go back to her home there. This is a good thing, is it not?
So what is the grievance---that TWI is not fully providing for her financial well-being? They have emphatically stated that Mrs. Wierwille's round the clock care is being covered 100% from a number of different sources (though not in ANY way from follower contributions). I do not have first hand experience in such matters as the financial arrangements necessary for nursing home care (thank God!). But I've been told that, in many cases, liquidation of a person's entire assets has been necessary in order for it to continue. Perhaps this is the rub. After all that Mrs. Wierwille has suffered and sacrificed at the hands of TWI, she will, in the end, have been sucked dry. Mentally. Emotionally. Financially. And TWI will have in it's coffers, assets that should rightfully be hers and her children's.
Just a bit of speculation---which may be totally wrong. In any case, I'm still very much hoping to hear the full story about this and countless other issues surrounding TWI.
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excathedra
harvey,
i hear the internet is a devilish place. be vigilant. you might become a greasespot by midnight.
but you are always welcome on the 9th corps thread
?
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Seth
Hey that was great, best writing I've seen from Harve in years. His letter didn't contain one pious platitude or quote of scripture. Do it again!
Seth
P.S. Off-topic: Hey Excathedra I know it's early but, what are your plans for post 5000?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--- that principle is contempt prior to investigation." ~~~ Herbert Spencer
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ho ho ho ha
you mean they have a secular lawyer ??? damn !!
?
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shazdancer
Hi everybody,
Here is the portion of JP's letter concerning his mother's health:
I took this to mean that JP had wanted his mom to receive better care while she was at HQ (24-hour nursing care, medications), but is now glad to have her out of there so she can get adequate care. He says he is unsure as to why she had not received the proper medications while she was at HQ. (Was the BOD clueless of what her illness was? Were they relying on prayer and ministering to heal her, and so did not administer medications? Was Mrs. W refusing to take them?)
Since the Wierwille children were not allowed on grounds, it must have been very difficult to get information on what was being done for their mother's medical care, let alone observe that care being given.
In a true Christian situation, one would think that the BOD would have had roundtable discussions with the Wierwille family as to what would be the best course of action on their mother's behalf, with the final say going to the sibling with power of attorney. Then the BOD would have been happy to have the children come and go from the family home, and see how well TWI was caring for their mother.
It seemed to me that the Wierwille children were trying to let their mother stay in her home (don't most people want their sunset years to be in familiar surroundings?), while keeping in contact with her the best they could (seeing her off grounds, as THEY were not allowed in their family home!). It is very difficult to keep track of her medical condition this way. Sounds to me like TWI had all the information and resources available, but did not do enough, while the children did the best they could with the information they had.
So BOD, how does it feel to make your own beds and vacuum your own floors, seeing as how you now know that you shouldn't have Staff assigned to do it?
Dancingly,
Shaz
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FreshAir 99
Obviously, twi is "picking a battle that they think they can win." ALL LCM-RELATED BATTLES will be left alone.
IMO this situation escalated as a result of twi's hard-heartedness and twisted policies: 1) mark & avoid, 2) sanctified "household" bs and 3) damage control (to name a few).
Will twi ever get it RIGHT? The mismanagement of twi and spiritual abuse is a study in "lording over God's heritage." There are MAJOR REASONS why twi continues to spiral downward.
Fresh
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Linda Z
Cherished Child:
Yep, RFR has an image to protect. I'm sure she wants all the remaining Wayfers, who probably haven't had the "privilege" of being around her to learn what she's really like, to buy her syrupy sweet demeanor.
A lady doesn't muss her skirt or dirty her hands, don't you know? That's what (yes)men are for.
Linda Z
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Kit Sober
There is a kindness of my Lord,
As he tenderly wipes my tears.
Calms my fears,
And says He's always near.
We are to be like that to one another,
Kindly affectioned, like sister and brother.
Agonizing rationalizing terrorizing and laying blame,
Is not the same.
JP and his off-twi-property family, too,
Deserve kindness, not this.
Harve's letter is a shameful masterpiece of using "spiritual authority" to inflict punishment
Rather than the kindness of Jesus we read about in the Bible.
They sure have had a lot of practice at cruelty!
I am so glad I'm out of that place!
My grief and tears are with you, JP,
Sincerely and hopefully,
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GarthP2000
Yup! And having lived in the South for over 2 decades, I know her version of that cultural mindset; the syrupy sweet demeanor while she lies to your face and then stabs you in the back, the 'Scarlett O'Hara'-style scheming and schmoozing, all of that clearly exhibited and 'mastered' by Rosilee herself.
Like I said in an earlier post, she's like Scarlett O'Hara on crack.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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FreshAir 99
Yeah....Harve's letter (or whoever wrote it) comes across as condescending and heavy-handed. Typically corporate, untypically Christ-like.
IMO twi has ensnared themselves and with gnashing of teeth they will NOT recover. With arrogant pride, they refuse to acknowledge that THEY HAVE STRAYED FAR FROM THE HEART OF GOD.
The humble of heart will continue to exit and find a safe, loving haven elsewhere.
Fresh
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Ham
I think that good old Harve will be held in high regard for confronting all of us internet "knucklheads" with "the truth". It is intriguing that once many in The Way prided themselves in holding forth the truth of the Word of God. Now they must settle for holding forth "the words of the law."
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excathedra
sorry harvey, excuse me for a moment here
seth, i already hit 5000 and beyond and then i deleted a long private topic and guess what !!!! i'm back below 5000
oh what are my plans ? probably a visit to my shrek !!!!
**
okay back on topic, harvey, you and rivendark....
and he gave some apostles and some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers and some phoney baloney heads
?
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washingtonweather
on an open forum....
Well, if this is so important for them to save face about, what about all the other "misleading" speeches that defamed and demoralized people.....
I just cannot buy the idea that they are so full of good intentions all of a sudden...does a leapord change its spots..not lately.
Im with RR on this one...
And if they are so "biblical" ( I use the term loosely with any Way related activity)
I know some of you have read these several times before, but for those who haven't, these are excerpts from The Sublte Power of Spiritual Abuse.
Identifying The Abusive System
1. Power Posturing
Leadership spends a lot of time focused on their own authority and reminding others of it as well. This is necessary because their spiritual authority isn?t real?based on a genuine godly character?it is postured.
If this pastor?s spiritual authority were real, he would not have to demand that others notice it.
2. Performance Preoccupation
?Power is postured and authority is legislated. Therefore, these systems are preoccupied with the performance of their members. Obedience and Submission are two important words often used. ?This system does not foster holiness or obedience to God, it merely accommodates the leaders? sick interpretation of spirituality and their need for control.
3. Unspoken Rules
When you find unspoken rules by breaking them unintentionally, you will then suffer one of two consequences: either neglect (being ignored, overlooked or shunned) or aggressive legalism (questioned, openly censured, asked to leave?in extreme cases cursed.
a. The Can?t Talk Rule: The real problem cannot be exposed because then it would have to be dealt with and things would have to change; so it must be protected behind walls of silence(neglect) or by assault (legalistic attack).If you speak about the problem out loud, you are the problem.
b. If noticing problems is Labeled disloyalty, lack of submission, divisiveness, and a challenge to authority, then there is only a façade of peace and unity.
4. Lack of Balance
a. Extreme Objectivism:
This system limits God to act only in those ways that we can explain, prove, or experience. It puts God in a box?..and God the Holy Bible?as if understanding and memorizing Scripture is the only way to hear from God. We are relegated to songs that commemorate how God used do things. We no longer worship the great I Am, but the great ?I Was.?
b. Extreme Subjectivism:
What is true is decided on the basis of feelings and experiences, giving more weight to them than what the bible declares. The fact that someone reads the actual Word of God does not necessarily mean that they have a word from the Lord for you. Even further, we believe it is dishonest and dangerous?simply to receive and act upon a spiritual directive because you are ?supposed to be submissive,? or because someone is ?in authority.?
5. Paranoia
There is an assumption that (1)what we say, know, or do is aresult of our being more enlightened than others; (2) others will not understand unless they become one of us; and (3) others will respond negatively.
This mentality builds a strong wall or bunker around the abusive system, isolates the abusers from scrutiny and accountability, and makes it more difficult for people to leave?because they will then be outsiders too. ?echoed in the same rhetoric: ?We must be getting really close to what God wants us to do, because Satan has renewed his attacks against us through the evil secular media!?
6. Misplaced Loyalty
a. ?We Alone Are Right?; A common way this is accomplished is by setting up a system where disloyalty to or disagreement with the leadership is construed as the same thing as disobeying God.
b. Scare Tactics; Deciding to leave their church many Christian are told horrifying things. ??Without our protection, Satan will get to your children.? ?You and your family will come under a curse.? This is spiritual blackmail and its abuse. And it does cause people to stay in abusive places.
c. Humiliation
This is done by publicly shaming, exposing or threatening to remove people from the group. ?this insures your proper allegiance, and insulates those in authority.
7. Secretive
People don?t hide what is appropriate; they hide what is inappropriate. Another reason for secrecy in a church is that the leadership has a condescending, negative view of the laity. This results in conspiracies on the leadership level.
And I would venture that the "defense of TWI" has not even been presented to the peon laity of TWI.
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Oakspear
- JPW disputes TWI's assertion that the family was in on the decision
- He implies that she was not receiving proper care before being sent to the nursing home.
From the written corresponance it does not appear that JPW is seeking to return his mother to her home, or to remove her from the nursing home. According to him,- a decision regarding his mother's care was made without consent of her children
- it was apprently made, at least in part, to be convenient for TWI
- TWI should have found a way to be financially responsible for her care
I don't see where Wierwille is demanding anything of substance from TWI, it looks like he is trying to set the record straight.In order for us to be able to see the picture more clearly, we will need to hear from the unnamed sister who allegedly has the power-of-attorney (or all three of them for that matter) to confirm or deny the competing versions of this story.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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JeffMedic
Harve, do you get it yet?
Become willing to CHANGE. Think outside the box. Question the ways interpretation..woops i ment research. Whatever, be willing to say i, we have been wrong biblicly and moraly. (i'm not referring to any one incident)
Take a second honest, unbiased look as when we all showed up at the way. Don't let fear of your cohorts, loss of job, loss of respect hinder you. GOD hath not given us the spirit of fear... where's yours coming from Harve?
Life is much to important to be taken seriously.
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laleo
Oakspear,
Just my opinion, but I think the unnamed sister's power of attorney is irrelevant to J.P.'s complaints. The way I'm reading his letter is that it was written in anger and frustration for all the years he (and probably his siblings, too) "played by the rules" set by TWI, hoping that in return his mother would receive care and consideration from them. Instead, she got handed back to the family when she became an inconvenience.
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dabobbada
Doesn't Harvey realise that if this letter doesn't go well that he will be the official scapegoat?
He should remember how Howard Allen took the fall for the financial disaster that happened after Craiggers heavy revvie to go full time on all the corps.
Yep, his job is in jeapardy allright. I wouldn't be surprised if RosyLie didn't set it up so she had something to use against him when she's in the mood.
(Yes, I know it was a letter by commitee with 328 revisions. And that every word was scrutinsed and approved by RosyLie and a bank of lawyers. But... Harvey's name is on it.)
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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dabobbada
laleo,
very insightful, I think you hit the nail on the head.
Way II much fun for one man.
love ya,
Bob Hansen
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Oakspear
...but I was mainly thinking of it as a rebuttal point to what Platig said.
If you have in writing Harve's assertion that their actions were taken with family approval and it turns out that it was bull...., that would be pretty hard for any remaining "innies" to rationalize away...hmmm, maybe not!
In the grand scheme of things...even in the SMALL scheme of things, it makes no difference to me, just like to see TWI choke on their own words...because they insisted on publishing!
Even if one of the sisters had power-of-attorney for their mom, was she given any kind of true choice?
"Mrs. _________, this is Harve Platig, the doctors say that your mother needs around-the-clock care in an Alzheimer's Unit due to her deteriorating condition. We will not under any circumstances be providing any care here at her home other than someone to cook for her and hold her hand. Sorry, the lawyers say we can't do it...laws, ya know. What is your decision Mrs. __________?"
I can empathize with JPW's frustration. Prevented from visiting his mother in her own home, at least consoled by the fact that she is being taken care of physically...oops, she's sick...you take care of her...she's your mother.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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detour
So TWI now has exknowledged that GS and WD are real and that obviously those "in" and "out" must visit the site. Posting a Open Letter to JP instead of suggesting that there is information on TWI website I think will open the opportunity for more "innies" to visit GS just to read the letter to JP and since the site has other information - it seems a like a gamble to me for TWI.
It would have been interesting to have been in the second floor conference room listening to how they were going to handle JP posted information. Then finally coming to an some agreement to have to post an open letter to defend themselves on GS with all the words
correct and written by their lawyer. TWI has then excepted the fact that GS does effect TWI.
Not knowing all the intimate details of who has this power of attorney and who agreed on what does not really make a difference to me.
Watching how they controlled Mrs.W life and prevented free and open communication to her children. That her children did not have access to come and visit at will or make all the phone calls etc or just to take there mom on a day trip speaks for itself.
When there Brother Don died TWI controlled the time the family "out of twi" could be grounds how much time they could spend etc. If they controlled this outwardly - what privately did they control about Mrs. Wierwille and her care.
My mother took care of my stepfather for 3 years at home when he had ALZMIERS until he was not able to get out of bed into his wheelchair. If she would have had 24 hour nursing she would have kept him at home where he loved his own belongs and watching TV even if he did not know what he was watching.
Do you suppose that many of the innies are really pointly asking BOD for some real answers to why this happened to Mrs. Wiewille and they want the truth.
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