The grave was that of George Mueller. Wierwille didn't fly to Europe with the express purpose of visiting the grave, but when he did, he supposidely found it covered with grass. This, "broke his heart". Supposidely he told some local believers to keep the grave up. George Mueller lived in the late 1800's and was a man of prayer. At that time there was a huge problem with orphans in England and Mueller addressed the problem by starting orphanages. He documents what he believes were a series of miracles in answer to prayer to provide for these orphanages. If you're interested you can read his autobiography that goes by the same name. It should be in any public library.
Mueller himself was highly respected and thought well of during his time. Whether Wierwille actually found his grave unkempt is anybody's guess.
I can believe Cheech and Chong might have gotten their idea for "Blind Melon Chitlin'" from this guy, but the idea of Wierwille listening to this is a bit of a stretch. :wacko:
I need a lot help on this one: I heard this teaching by VeePee on a tape, about how he went oversees to find some man of gods grave, VeePee found the grave full of weeds, and was mad that no one kept this grave up, and VeePee command so to speak, that the people that were with him keep this grave up. Does anyone remember this teaching, and who this man of god is, that influenced VeePee?
The "vp amd me in Wonderland" thread discussed this a little.
Also, vpw claimed George Mueller "influenced" him on a number of occasions.
However, vpw never in any way imitated Mueller, which would have been the
result if Mueller actually influenced him.
George Mueller's greatly respected in some Christian circles, and with good reason.
In twi, there were 2 things of his that I'd heard about.
Outside of twi but in college, I read that Mueller kept a diary with 2 dates-
listing the date he began praying for something, and the date he saw that prayer
fulfilled, so he had a record of prayers answered.
As for the two things I'd heard in twi about him, here they are.
"I live in the spirit of prayer; I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times my prayers have been answered. When once I am persuaded a thing is right, I go on praying for it until the end comes."
"The great fault of the children of God is that they do not continue in prayer; they do not go on praying; they do not persevere. If they desire anything of God's glory, they should pray until they get it."
"The Muellers' set off for the United States in August 1877 aboard the Sardian…Off Newfoundland the weather turned cold and the ship's progress was seriously retarded by fog. The captain had been on the bridge for 24 hours when something happened which was to revolutionize his life. George Mueller appeared on the bridge.
"Captain, I have come to tell you I must be in Quebec by Saturday afternoon."
"It is impossible," said the captain.
"Very well, " said Mueller, "if your ship cannot take me, God will find some other way--I have never broken an engagement for 52 years. Let us go down into the chart-room and pray."
The Captain wondered which lunatic asylum Mueller had come from.
"Mr. Mueller," he said, "do you know how dense this fog is?"
"No, my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God."
Mueller then knelt down and prayed. When he had finished the captain was about to pray, but Mueller put his hand on his shoulder, and told him:
"First, you do not believe He will and second, I believe He HAS, and there is NO NEED whatever for you to pray about it."
The captain looked at Mueller in amazement.
"Captain," he continued, I have known my Lord for 52 years, and there has never been a single day that I have failed to get an audience with the King. Get up, captain, and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone."
The captain walked across to the door and opened it. The fog had lifted. It was the captain himself, who later told the story of this incident, and who was subsequently described by a well known evangelist as "one of the most devoted men I ever knew."
========================
For the curious, it was Billy Graham, as legit as 20th century evangelists ever got,
who met that captain and said he was so devoted.
Meeting and interacting with George Mueller transformed his life.
Wow, thanks for that, VeePee has been teaching me, I think VeePee was using Mueller, like that India line about that key in pfal, keeping score about his believing.
"The Muellers' set off for the United States in August 1877 aboard the Sardian…Off Newfoundland the weather turned cold and the ship's progress was seriously retarded by fog. The captain had been on the bridge for 24 hours when something happened which was to revolutionize his life. George Mueller appeared on the bridge.
"Captain, I have come to tell you I must be in Quebec by Saturday afternoon."
"It is impossible," said the captain.
"Very well, " said Mueller, "if your ship cannot take me, God will find some other way--I have never broken an engagement for 52 years. Let us go down into the chart-room and pray."
The Captain wondered which lunatic asylum Mueller had come from.
"Mr. Mueller," he said, "do you know how dense this fog is?"
"No, my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God."
Mueller then knelt down and prayed. When he had finished the captain was about to pray, but Mueller put his hand on his shoulder, and told him:
"First, you do not believe He will and second, I believe He HAS, and there is NO NEED whatever for you to pray about it."
The captain looked at Mueller in amazement.
"Captain," he continued, I have known my Lord for 52 years, and there has never been a single day that I have failed to get an audience with the King. Get up, captain, and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone."
The captain walked across to the door and opened it. The fog had lifted. It was the captain himself, who later told the story of this incident, and who was subsequently described by a well known evangelist as "one of the most devoted men I ever knew."
Mueller WAS the man he knew to be, NOT the man he wished he "knew to be" (like docvic's tombstone reads).
I thank God for TRUE men of God, not charlatans. I can't EVER imagine docvic saying the above quote of George Mueller.
I doubt that Mueller would have made that claim. But I do believe that he always strived to the be the man he knew to be and was aware of his failings and worked to change them so that each day of his life he did better. The miracles that took place in Muellers life are well documented and often witnessed by others. He is a good man to emulate.
I can believe Cheech and Chong might have gotten their idea for "Blind Melon Chitlin'" from this guy, but the idea of Wierwille listening to this is a bit of a stretch. :wacko:
I didn't mean that Wierwille was somehow exposed to this artist or song. My point was that the concept of keeping a grave clean is very old. I find it odd that Wierwille, who believed in what many call "soul sleep", would have a strong (and emotional) response to this. Unless, of course, it was all for show.
I didn't mean that Wierwille was somehow exposed to this artist or song. My point was that the concept of keeping a grave clean is very old. I find it odd that Wierwille, who believed in what many call "soul sleep", would have a strong (and emotional) response to this. Unless, of course, it was all for show.
Off Topic----
O.K. I'm tracking with you now. Thanks for explaining. Nice link by the way. :) I agree with TeachMe. As I recall the unspoken message was, "See? I'm the only one who really cares." I also wonder if the grave was really covered by grass.
Whether Wierwille actually found his grave unkempt is anybody's guess.
...I think that statement speaks volumes.
At this point, Wierwille has been so discredited, so exposed for the total phoney that he was...that absolutely ANYTHING the guy said...is suspect.
I think Wierwille was a pathetic liar...becoming the guy who rose up to the occasion of keeping George;s grave clean and swept...now it's about Wierwille. The guy never passed up an opprotunity to toot his own horn and build his ego even more...he was a flim flam man.
Well, here's a current (well, cir. 2007) photo of Mueller's grave (scroll down the page a bit). It does look like it's been neglected for some time now, but I have no idea what that says about Mr. Wierwille's credibility. Uhh, doesn't change my opinion of the guy much:
You might find this link of interest. Scroll down to the bottom for a pic of Muller's graveSTONE, ie, not what's shown in the earlier link.
Yes, the grave was perhaps neglected, but that's because the cemetery itself had become neglected. It's now a well-cared for location and a haven for wildlife because it is relatively undisturbed.
"We walked down a muddy incline to Mr. Muller's grave. The area around his tombstone and those of his first and second wife was kept up...thanks for the efforts of the Foundation."
Not sure why there would be the "family tomb" in the curbed and raised tomb thing photo'd in the blog; and also a headstone as shown on the actual Arno's Vale Cemetery website. The remains can't be buried in two places. There's no evidence of any connection between the two; they don't seem to be adjacent. Hmm. Might investigate that some time.
Slightly off topic, but it appears that Muller's work continues, but now in relation to the care of the elderly:
"We walked down a muddy incline to Mr. Muller's grave. The area around his tombstone and those of his first and second wife was kept up...thanks for the efforts of the Foundation."
From the blog that George's link above takes you to.
But see my links (above) that describe the work that is going on in this historic cemetery, which had fallen into disuse and overgrown-ness; and is now tended by a volunteer group/trust. The Arno's Vale trust doesn't mention the "Muller Foundation", either; and the Muller website doesn't mention tending his grave, nor even where he is buried. Mentions where other family members are buried, though.
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Broken Arrow
The grave was that of George Mueller. Wierwille didn't fly to Europe with the express purpose of visiting the grave, but when he did, he supposidely found it covered with grass. This, "broke his heart". Supposidely he told some local believers to keep the grave up. George Mueller lived in the late 1800's and was a man of prayer. At that time there was a huge problem with orphans in England and Mueller addressed the problem by starting orphanages. He documents what he believes were a series of miracles in answer to prayer to provide for these orphanages. If you're interested you can read his autobiography that goes by the same name. It should be in any public library.
Mueller himself was highly respected and thought well of during his time. Whether Wierwille actually found his grave unkempt is anybody's guess.
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teachmevp
Thanks for helping me out on that.
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waysider
Good gravy!
The man never had an original thought in his life.
SEE THAT MY GRAVE IS KEPT CLEAN
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Broken Arrow
I can believe Cheech and Chong might have gotten their idea for "Blind Melon Chitlin'" from this guy, but the idea of Wierwille listening to this is a bit of a stretch. :wacko:
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WordWolf
The "vp amd me in Wonderland" thread discussed this a little.
Also, vpw claimed George Mueller "influenced" him on a number of occasions.
However, vpw never in any way imitated Mueller, which would have been the
result if Mueller actually influenced him.
George Mueller's greatly respected in some Christian circles, and with good reason.
In twi, there were 2 things of his that I'd heard about.
Outside of twi but in college, I read that Mueller kept a diary with 2 dates-
listing the date he began praying for something, and the date he saw that prayer
fulfilled, so he had a record of prayers answered.
As for the two things I'd heard in twi about him, here they are.
http://www.puritanfellowship.com/2008/02/two-amazing-accounts-of-george-mueller.html
"I live in the spirit of prayer; I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times my prayers have been answered. When once I am persuaded a thing is right, I go on praying for it until the end comes."
"The great fault of the children of God is that they do not continue in prayer; they do not go on praying; they do not persevere. If they desire anything of God's glory, they should pray until they get it."
=======================================
http://www.christianadoption.com/faithful/georgemueller.htm
"The Muellers' set off for the United States in August 1877 aboard the Sardian…Off Newfoundland the weather turned cold and the ship's progress was seriously retarded by fog. The captain had been on the bridge for 24 hours when something happened which was to revolutionize his life. George Mueller appeared on the bridge.
"Captain, I have come to tell you I must be in Quebec by Saturday afternoon."
"It is impossible," said the captain.
"Very well, " said Mueller, "if your ship cannot take me, God will find some other way--I have never broken an engagement for 52 years. Let us go down into the chart-room and pray."
The Captain wondered which lunatic asylum Mueller had come from.
"Mr. Mueller," he said, "do you know how dense this fog is?"
"No, my eye is not on the density of the fog, but on the living God."
Mueller then knelt down and prayed. When he had finished the captain was about to pray, but Mueller put his hand on his shoulder, and told him:
"First, you do not believe He will and second, I believe He HAS, and there is NO NEED whatever for you to pray about it."
The captain looked at Mueller in amazement.
"Captain," he continued, I have known my Lord for 52 years, and there has never been a single day that I have failed to get an audience with the King. Get up, captain, and open the door, and you will find the fog is gone."
The captain walked across to the door and opened it. The fog had lifted. It was the captain himself, who later told the story of this incident, and who was subsequently described by a well known evangelist as "one of the most devoted men I ever knew."
========================
For the curious, it was Billy Graham, as legit as 20th century evangelists ever got,
who met that captain and said he was so devoted.
Meeting and interacting with George Mueller transformed his life.
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teachmevp
Wow, thanks for that, VeePee has been teaching me, I think VeePee was using Mueller, like that India line about that key in pfal, keeping score about his believing.
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dmiller
Mueller WAS the man he knew to be, NOT the man he wished he "knew to be" (like docvic's tombstone reads).
I thank God for TRUE men of God, not charlatans. I can't EVER imagine docvic saying the above quote of George Mueller.
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Keith
I doubt that Mueller would have made that claim. But I do believe that he always strived to the be the man he knew to be and was aware of his failings and worked to change them so that each day of his life he did better. The miracles that took place in Muellers life are well documented and often witnessed by others. He is a good man to emulate.
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waysider
I didn't mean that Wierwille was somehow exposed to this artist or song. My point was that the concept of keeping a grave clean is very old. I find it odd that Wierwille, who believed in what many call "soul sleep", would have a strong (and emotional) response to this. Unless, of course, it was all for show.
Off Topic----
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teachmevp
That is the way it sounded on that teaching tape, that VeePee was putting on a show.
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Watered Garden
Mueller's biography is titled "Delighted in God."
There is a "Veggie Tales" skit about George Mueller on a kiddie tape.
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Broken Arrow
O.K. I'm tracking with you now. Thanks for explaining. Nice link by the way. :) I agree with TeachMe. As I recall the unspoken message was, "See? I'm the only one who really cares." I also wonder if the grave was really covered by grass.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...I think that statement speaks volumes.
At this point, Wierwille has been so discredited, so exposed for the total phoney that he was...that absolutely ANYTHING the guy said...is suspect.
I think Wierwille was a pathetic liar...becoming the guy who rose up to the occasion of keeping George;s grave clean and swept...now it's about Wierwille. The guy never passed up an opprotunity to toot his own horn and build his ego even more...he was a flim flam man.
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George Aar
Well, here's a current (well, cir. 2007) photo of Mueller's grave (scroll down the page a bit). It does look like it's been neglected for some time now, but I have no idea what that says about Mr. Wierwille's credibility. Uhh, doesn't change my opinion of the guy much:
http://georgemuller.blogspot.com/2007_03_01_archive.html
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Twinky
You might find this link of interest. Scroll down to the bottom for a pic of Muller's graveSTONE, ie, not what's shown in the earlier link.
Yes, the grave was perhaps neglected, but that's because the cemetery itself had become neglected. It's now a well-cared for location and a haven for wildlife because it is relatively undisturbed.
Muller's gravestone
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waysider
"We walked down a muddy incline to Mr. Muller's grave. The area around his tombstone and those of his first and second wife was kept up...thanks for the efforts of the Foundation."
No mention of Wierwille. <_<
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Twinky
Not sure why there would be the "family tomb" in the curbed and raised tomb thing photo'd in the blog; and also a headstone as shown on the actual Arno's Vale Cemetery website. The remains can't be buried in two places. There's no evidence of any connection between the two; they don't seem to be adjacent. Hmm. Might investigate that some time.
Slightly off topic, but it appears that Muller's work continues, but now in relation to the care of the elderly:
The Work of Muller's
There's an interesting bit about his life (and two wives) under teh Heritage tab.
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Broken Arrow
What's this quote from?
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Twinky
From the blog that George's link above takes you to.
But see my links (above) that describe the work that is going on in this historic cemetery, which had fallen into disuse and overgrown-ness; and is now tended by a volunteer group/trust. The Arno's Vale trust doesn't mention the "Muller Foundation", either; and the Muller website doesn't mention tending his grave, nor even where he is buried. Mentions where other family members are buried, though.
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Ham
I could describe a way to keep da vicster's grave weed free..
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Belle
This website is devoted to Arno's Vale Cemetary and has before and after pictures of their restoration efforts.
Here is the cemetery's own website. I seriously doubt vee pee had any thing to do with the clean up and restoration of the grave.
There are over 300,000 people buried there, some very famous people buried there and, as Twinky said, some important wildlife, plants.
It does look like a really neat place to visit.
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teachmevp
Thanks for sharing that Amo's Vale Cemetery website, I got to live in St. Augustine, FL, for five and half years,
and that town is the oldest town in the US they say, but their is this very old cemetery their, as I was walking
by that cemetery one day, I thought about that teaching VeePee taught, and I thought to myself, their is no
way I would go into that cemetery and start doing anything on those graves without the towns ok.
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