Sooooo-----Just like that, a member of the Indian Parliament took it upon himself to represent the other 795 members of Parliament, as well as other entire nations by opening the doors of India and the Far East?
There is so much wrong with this whole scenario, I'm not sure where to start.
Wierwille spotlighted his "greatness" in the pfal class by making big fat claims....details that Mrs. Wierwille documents in her book in vivid contrast to vpw's bravado. When one steps back and examines weirwille's statements, it just doesn't add up. For instance:
1) E. Stanley Jones did extensive outreach in India....was wierwille claiming the same?
2) How did Wierwille make inroads to preach in India?
3) If Wierwille was so "great" for India....why only one itinerary?
4) Never to return to India after "given the key incident" seems highly suspect?
If one is interested, here are a link to check. The man who opened all the doors for Wierwille and Mrs. to the Jain convention was Dr. Williams....the head of the Federation of National Churches. Dr. Williams was a prominent man in India.
Dr. Williams was MUCH MORE than just a guide for the wierwilles.......he (and his family) was their HOST (think how big that was in THAT culture) and entree to government offices, churches, meetings, etc. See some detail below....
p. 125...."Bishop Pillai had made arrangements with Dr. Williams to be our host in India." [added bold-type]
p. 125,126...."During the years prior to India's independence in 1948, many of the Indian revolutionaries were imprisoned for trying to oust the British. During those times, Dr. Williams contributed to the independence movement by personally carrying communications to and from these patriots. He was trusted to take correspondence and messages to those who would later become the highest political leaders in the Indian government, men such as Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru, Vice President Dr. Radha Krishna, and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, the father of India. BECAUSE OF DR. WILLIAMS'S CONTACTS AND CREDIBILITY, it was possible for Dr. Wierwille to meet....." [emphasis added]
p. 127...."The next evening after our arrival we were given a very cordial 'at home' at Dr. Williams church, where about 150 people gathered to officially welcome us."
p. 130...."During our stay in India, Dr. Wierwille was sometimes introduced by Dr. Williams as a representative of 'PAIRS,' the acronym for the Promotion of American-India Relations Society in an industrial, economic, and cultural exchange.......Dr. Williams was the head of the Federation of National Churches and therefore at various times during our tour Dr. Wierwille was invited to speak in their local churches."
p. 145...."Dr. Wierwille and Dr. Williams met with the chief minister of Madhya Pradesh...."
p. 154...."On Monday, January 23, Dr. Williams and Dr. Wierwille went to keep a speaking engagement at Jain meeting.........Dr. Wierwille spoke........Dr. Williams also spoke in Hindi to the crowd for fifteen minutes."
p. 155...."One of the Jain leaders asked Dr. Wierwille to have a special blessing for all the Jains.......When the train came to its first stop, a man from the next compartment came to our door, saying that his master would like to meet......When we had introduced ourselves, he said, 'We would like to pay our respects. It is not often we get to travel with such a man of God who blesses all the people.' He told us he was a member of the central government on his way home to Allahabad. He gave Dr. Wierwille the key to that city."
I'm wondering now just how prominent Dr. Williams in India really was. Seems his family lives in New Bremen, Ohio. I know his granddaughter personally, and she has plenty of family--including Dr. Williams's wife (if she's still alive)--in the big city of New Bremen also. Perhaps Williams was living in New Bremen and that's how VP knew him? Don't know, just asking. But I'm tempted to call Williams's granddaughter and ask her for some info.
Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve p. 125...
"By the time the host for our India tour, Dr. J.S. Williams, had come to our cabin to greet us, we had already left the ship to go through customs. So we met him in customs."
Note: Other credentials of Dr. Williams are noted in my earlier post from Mrs.' book.
**When I googled "All-India Federation of National Churches" from Mrs. Wierwille's book noting that Dr. J.S. Williams was the president, I found this link.
**Note: Dr. I. S. Williams........NOT "Dr. J. S. Williams"
Then.....scroll down to No. 7
Is this the man? Look at this info?
Look at his rejection of foreign "denominational groups."
Look at what I bold-faced.
No. 7
Name.-Dr. I., S. Williams.
Caste.-Christian.
Occupation.-Arch Priest, Indian National Hindustani Church.
Address.-Bombay.
I am a Doctor of Divinity. I got this degree from the Indian Orthodox Church. Its headquarters are in Madras (South India). It is a registered body. I shall send a copy of the constitution of this body. Archbishop Rev. K. C. Pillay was the founder of the Indian Orthodox Church. There are 18 churches in South India and one church at Bombay with a congregation of 200.
One of the chief tenets of the church is Apostolic succession Archbishop K. C. Pillay was consecrated Bishop by a synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church. The church in India owes allegiance to the patriarch of the Greek Orthodox Church in Antioch. In the Bombay church the Anglican litergy with consequential amendments, is used, as most of the members originally belonged to the. Anglican church. The right, of managership of the Church is still in dispute. Originality it was an Anglican church and the property of the church vested in the Secretary of the State. I was a member of the Anglican church and so I and my congregation came into possession of that church. Later on we declared ourselves independent of the foreign church administrative system. The whole congregation without any dissident voice adopted the Orthodox faith. There is no foreign organisation which controls our church. The Indian organisation is known as All-India Federation of National Churches and all the independent churches in India are affiliated to this central body. None of the ecclesiastical dignitaries such as Bishops or Archbishops receive any salary. They all do honorary work. The building in Madras belongs to the Orthodox churches and is controlled by Rev. Dr. Pillay.
Those who are members of our churches claim to be National Christians; they am excluded from and deprived of the membership of the established churches.
We hold the doctrine that Jesus Christ is the personal Saviour and the only Saviour of the world and that baptism is necessary for salvation. We have preachers but not paid ones. They have their independent means of livelihood.
There was rally of the National Christians held at Jabalpur on the 4th and 5th June 1955. I presided over this conference. I do not believe in proselytization but I believe in conversion which means real change of heart. A Nationalist Christian does not believe in the control, domination and authority from any foreign body. It is because the foreign domination destroys initiative in the first place and tends to denationalise them. I say that the Christians with few honourable exceptions in India are not nationalistic. The loyalty of the Indian Christian to a foreign church implies a loyalty to the State to which the church belongs.
The Anglican Missions which are working in India believe that the ruling sovereign of England is head of the Church that is wrong because Christ is the head of the church and not the ruling king. The Anglican Missions working here also believe that the English Sovereign is the Defender of the Faith of the church.
I use the word “ordinary” subject to correction. The Indians who become members of the American church are influenced by American culture. To a certain extent it will affect Indian Christians’ loyalty to his country. To give an illustration if there is a war between America and India the Indian Christians who are under American church will not enthusiastically support Indian Nation. In the recent years I have noticed a trend in the attitude of Indian Christians in favour of Indian culture.
I presided over the rally of the Nationalist Christians held at Jabalpur on the 4th and 5th June J955. The resolution No. 3 passed at the rally disapproves of the continuance of the denationalising foreign church administrative system in Free India and considers it baneful to the national interest of the people in India in general and the Christians in particular. I do not mind a foreign Missionary working in India on the invitation of the Indian Nationalist Church, but I disapprove of a foreign Missionary working here under the control of his foreign church administrative system whereby he imports into India his denominational system. The foreign church administrative system results in the denationalisation of Indian Christians.
About six foreign Missionaries had come at our invitation and helped in the work of the National Church. They preached and went away. All they said was that they had come to India to share their faith with the Indian Christians.
Some of the methods adopted by the foreign Missionaries are not spiritually sound. They offer economic advantages to the poor as well as to the needy. The people gather round them with the hope of being sent abroad for education and even for sight-seeing. It is an inducement. I would not like any educational institution being under the guidance and administration of any foreign Missionary, because no independent country in the world will entrust the education of children to any foreigner. I dislike proselytization in any form. I will not approve and do not approve of hospitals being used for this work. I have no personal knowledge of hospitals being used for proselytization.
Our movement has been opposed by the churches controlled by the foreign Missionaries. Opposition is mainly from church workers and other stooges of Missionaries. We are welcomed by non-Christians, 'both by Hindus and Muslims. Even in Jabalpur an Aryasamajist, Hindu Mahasabhaite, welcomed our attitude in this matter. They did not mind expression of my faith that Jesus Christ was the only Saviour. I have not converted any one in the sense of baptism, but I did preach Jesus Christ and it is possible that people got converted in their hearts. There is a genuine respect for Christ among the non-Christians. Even when our foreign friends visited Bombay, 2 from America and one from Canada, the reception was accorded to them by non-Christians and that was attended by Jains, Aryasamajists, Parsis and others and Ramkrishna Mission and the Sanatani Hindus. The audience mostly consisted of non-Christians and Hindus. Only if we are freed from the domination of the Alien Church Administration would Christians be welcome in India by all sections of people. I can give an instance of how non-Christians appreciate the Christians and their religion also. When there was a funeral of one Mr. Kale, a Hindu, a Kshatriya by caste at Sonapur, Bombay, there was performance of rituals by Hindus, and speeches were also delivered, and before cremation I was requested to address the people, as also to offer a Christian prayer; and I did so very willingly, and there was an atmosphere of friendship between non-Christians and Christians. This will always be so between Christians and non-Christians if the foreign control is withdrawn.
To Mr. Tiwari of Mungeli-
My birthplace is Muradabad. I was educated in a Hindu school at Sitapur and in a Christian college at Lucknow and Lucknow University as well as Bombay University. Perhaps my grandfather or great grandfather became Christian. They belonged to the Sikh Community. My father was in the service of an American Mission and when. I was about 10 years old I came to understand things. After that my father did not continue in service. We are 3 or 4 brothers. Only 2 of us were learning in school. I was also reading in the High School. All my domestic expenses used to be incurred by my father. I used to work in the Methodist Church as a boy at Sitapur and Lucknow. I used to attend the St. Paul’s Church in Bombay. I never visited Jabalpur before the rally in 1955. I do not know whether the name of P. D. Yadav is in my register. I was a guest of Shri E. Benjamin while I was at Jabalpur. There were 3 members in Shri Benjamin's house. There were two females and one male. As by correspondence I knew Shri Benjamin I stayed as his guest. I know Rev. Bishop Pathak of Nagpur and also that Mr. Benjamin is a member of the C. M. S. Church at Jabalpur. I do not know if the church in Jabalpur is under any supervision of the Bishop. I do not know that Benjamin was ex-communicated from the church. I conducted the divine service in St. Luke’s Church at Jabalpur. I do not know that Shri Benjamin had taken forcible possession of this church. All I can definitely remember is that Mr. S. D. Singh attended the rally in Bombay. There was no admission form circulated in any area on behalf of my church. I knew Shri Benjamin for 2 or 3 years through correspondence I personally saw him for the first time at Jabalpur in connection with the rally. Even though a person may be the member of the All-India Federation of the National Christians and president of the Committee he may be a member of the C. M. S.; there is no objection.
Question.- The Missionaries work in India under their respective foreign denominations. Do you think that this is right or wrong?
Answer.- It is not right.
The All-India Federation of Nationalist Christians in India is not a denominational institution.
Question.- Are you a Christian?
Answer.- I am not prepared to answer this question.
Question.- Have you read the Bible?
This question is disallowed.
Our Federation is an organisation of independent local churches. There is an independent church in Nagpur, but not yet affiliated. The name of the church is the Nagpur Independent Church. Shri Rajaram Sontake is the Minister of the Church. I do not know if he was a pastor of the 1840 church.
(Mr. Tiwari says that he was a pastor of 1840 church but was removed from this office).
The Federation has no doctrines of its own; all that insists upon is that the church should be independent, nationalist, free of control of any outside church and that it should be Christian. Some of our members are foreigners and we have fellowship with foreign churches. We have received no monetary contribution from any foreign church. I do not get even a pie as a salary from my congregation. I did not get even a gift. I had invited 5 or 6 foreign friends to Bombay. I paid a few hundred rupees which were raised by contributions. In the first party there were 4 and in the second party there were 2. One was from Canada and 3 or 4 from U. S. A. There is a committee representing the All-India Federation. The president of that body is Shri R. S. Modak. He lives in America. He is the President of the Indian Federation. He is not paid by the Federation and he maintains his livelihood there.
Question.- The visitors who came to India were the members of the Federation.
Answer.- They were friends.
We do not want any foreign control even supranational. I am very positive that there should be no outside control in any form. Even in India our Bishop will not control the church, but only the Panchayats will. I preach every week in the open air. No non-Christian ever obstructed us. We distribute copies of Gospel and tracts written by ourselves or the tracts approved by our panchayat. Schools should be controlled by local panchayats in consultation with the Education Department of Government. I got the degree of D. D. in 1955. I did not go to a foreign country through the Indian Orthodox Churches, although I had been to foreign countries. I went abroad for 2 or 3 months. I have ceased to be a teacher for 3 years. When I was a teacher my salary was about Rs. 500 per month. This Bombay Education Society was founded by Europeans. I served for 15 years. This society was founded mostly by Anglicans. I joined the Federation in 1952.
To the Chairman-
There are 80 lakhs of Christians in India and every Christian is an evangelist and therefore it is not necessary for any foreign Missionary to come to India for evangelization.
Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve p. 125...
"By the time the host for our India tour, Dr. J.S. Williams, had come to our cabin to greet us, we had already left the ship to go through customs. So we met him in customs."
Note: Other credentials of Dr. Williams are noted in my earlier post from Mrs.' book.
**When I googled "All-India Federation of National Churches" from Mrs. Wierwille's book noting that Dr. J.S. Williams was the president, I found this link.
Well, if it is, (and it sure seems to be) it sure shatters Victor Paul Wierwille's version of things.
ABSOLUTELY......it shatters the wierwille myth.
Dr. I.S. Williams was THE ONE who presided over the Jabalpur conference and, with respect to foreign preachers and missionaries, allowed wierwille to preach for 15 minutes. And, it seems rather odd and/or suspect that Mrs. Wierwille's book is in error as "Dr. J.S. Williams." Is it merely a typo?......or cover-up of the real facts?
And further.....whether the healing incident and/or "keys to the city" incident happened as were related in pfal is even more highly suspect. Is it not?
Back in the late '80s, I had a copy of The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India. If my memory serves me, Wierwille's pamphlet could well have been plagiarized from William's testimony.
Back in the late '80s, I had a copy of The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India. If my memory serves me, Wierwille's pamphlet could well have been plagiarized from William's testimony.
Love,
Steve
Steve....as I read thru Dr. William's testimony on the above website, I thought the same thing!
I used to wonder why there were no great healings in the PFAL books like this one that were done by VP except in India. I thought it had something to do with an abundance of unbelief in our modern society.
Now I am thinking it had more to do with it being a lot harder to debunk claims made in the far off exotic land of India.
Not so much as even a brief mention of anyone receiving a "miraculous" healing.
Nope.......not a peep.
In piecing this together....(assuming Mrs. Wierwille's itinerary account is correct and Dr. I.S. William's statements are correct)....VPW and Mrs. were in Jabalpur, India on January 23, 1955. About four months later, June 4 and 5, 1955 Dr. I.S. Williams recounts a rally of the National Churches and resolution passed disapproving of the continuance of the denationalising foreign church administrative system in Free India and considers it baneful to the national interest of the people in India in general and the Christians in particular.
Dr. I.S. Williams is testifying of the actions he took in the interests of India and the growing concern of foreign missions.
No wonder vpw never returned to India for a follow-up itinerary.
In piecing this together....(assuming Mrs. Wierwille's itinerary account is correct and Dr. I.S. William's statements are correct)....VPW and Mrs. were in Jabalpur, India on January 23, 1955. About four months later, June 4 and 5, 1955 Dr. I.S. Williams recounts a rally of the National Churches and resolution passed disapproving of the continuance of the denationalising foreign church administrative system in Free India and considers it baneful to the national interest of the people in India in general and the Christians in particular.
Dr. I.S. Williams is testifying of the actions he took in the interests of India and the growing concern of foreign missions.
No wonder vpw never returned to India for a follow-up itinerary.
Interesting stuff............
CORRECTION:
Vpw and Mrs. Wierwille's were in Jabalpur, India from January 17-23, 1956...not 1955. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a hodge-podge of events, dates, people and is ambiguous in areas. But under closer scrutiny....the India itinerary was from November 6, 1955 to February 11, 1956 visiting some 20 cities throughout India.
NOW....after reading Dr. I.S. Williams' testimony of June 4 and 5, 1955
....the plot thickens.
p. 172.....Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve
"Dr. Wierwille had designated Dr. Williams as the general overseer of The Way of India, with its headquarters in Bombay, as had been voted at the convention held on February 9 and 10 [1956]. Branches for each state of India were to be established as soon as possible, all under and by the independent national Christians without a foreign system of control. Mr. James John was to be secretary for The Way of India."
What the heck???
Obviously, Dr. I.S. Williams NEVER signed on as "the general overseer of The Way of India."
Vpw and Mrs. Wierwille's were in Jabalpur, India from January 17-23, 1956...not 1955. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a hodge-podge of events, dates, people and is ambiguous in areas.
Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, was pieced together from notes in "Historical." Historical is basically a room in the OSC where books for the junk table, memorabilia, and other odds and ends are kept. She used her journal as well that she had kept for years. The book reflects the source. She had been working on a follow up book but fell ill and passed away soon after.
Dr. I.S. Williams was THE ONE who presided over the Jabalpur conference and, with respect to foreign preachers and missionaries, allowed wierwille to preach for 15 minutes. And, it seems rather odd and/or suspect that Mrs. Wierwille's book is in error as "Dr. J.S. Williams." Is it merely a typo?......or cover-up of the real facts?
And further.....whether the healing incident and/or "keys to the city" incident happened as were related in pfal is even more highly suspect. Is it not?
<_<
Who'd a thunk (back in the 1970's) to doubt the story of the "India Mission"? Especially in a "bible class"?
No "search engines" then. No computers or WWW. I guess you just had to take the MOG at his word, eh?
Snow on the gas pumps/ closed airport/ bright lights at PFAL filming/ and "miracles" on that trip to India???
All that and more leads me to honestly believe that docvic made ONE true statement, which was:
twi headquarters is located on the original Wierwille farm there in New Knoxville, Ohio.
But given everything else he said, even that might be considered suspect, eh?
Probably not, since the family name WAS painted on the top of the barn. What a long, strange trip it's been.
(edited to add - - - Thank you skyrider for those links. Shedding new light (maybe old light to some)
Lots of stuff here if someone really wants to delve into it.
But.....it looks like "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions" research was well underway in 1954 and finalized in April of 1956 before wierwille wrote his little pamphet in Nov/Dec of 1956. Once again....it looks like wierwille tried to pass of "his work of the foreign missions" WHEN IT CLEARLY WAS ALREADY IN THE FINAL PHASE IN INDIA.
Vpw and Mrs. Wierwille's were in Jabalpur, India from January 17-23, 1956...not 1955. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a hodge-podge of events, dates, people and is ambiguous in areas. But under closer scrutiny....the India itinerary was from November 6, 1955 to February 11, 1956 visiting some 20 cities throughout India.
NOW....after reading Dr. I.S. Williams' testimony of June 4 and 5, 1955
....the plot thickens.
Am I correct in reading that VPW is claiming to have been at a conference that had already concluded months before he even left for India?
Vpw and Mrs. Wierwille's were in Jabalpur, India from January 17-23, 1956...not 1955. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a hodge-podge of events, dates, people and is ambiguous in areas. But under closer scrutiny....the India itinerary was from November 6, 1955 to February 11, 1956 visiting some 20 cities throughout India.
NOW....after reading Dr. I.S. Williams' testimony of June 4 and 5, 1955
....the plot thickens.
p. 172.....Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve
"Dr. Wierwille had designated Dr. Williams as the general overseer of The Way of India, with its headquarters in Bombay, as had been voted at the convention held on February 9 and 10 [1956]. Branches for each state of India were to be established as soon as possible, all under and by the independent national Christians without a foreign system of control. Mr. James John was to be secretary for The Way of India."
What the heck???
Obviously, Dr. I.S. Williams NEVER signed on as "the general overseer of The Way of India."
Calling..........Sherlock Holmes.
Calling..........Wordwolf
:)
vpw could designate anyone anything he wanted- that didn't mean they knew,
or would take it seriously if they knew.
I once got some information for a friend. Some of it arrived by mail and
was addressed to me, and it was from an insurance company about insuring
an event. Under my name, for some reason, they'd added
"insurance coordinator" before the name of the friend's organization.
My friend said, "Well, congratulations-you're now our insurance coordinator."
Flatly, I replied "I can't tell you what this means to me", which obviously
meant I don't have the words to express how little it meant.
Anyway, they gave me that title, but it carried no force- we didn't take it
seriously. So, vpw can decide to call someone "India coordinator", but be
met with mild amusement at best, if he ever told them.
(We know the guy acted as if he either didn't know, or didn't take it
seriously- he did his work and ignored what the title would mean.)
==============================
vpw went to India, hooked up with Williams, rode Williams' coattails all over
India, accepted honors based on being Williams' associate (like the key to the
city), and reported based on complaints of Williams when he returned.
Compared side-by-side, vpw was a rank amateur compared to Williams, and the
idea of Williams working FOR vpw is silly. I'm sure Williams wouldn't have taken
the idea seriously,
any more than Billy Graham or Oral Roberts would have taken seriously this
unknown guy suggesting "a collaboration of equals" when they were household names
and he was very much an unknown.
vpw had a consistent history of lying, using the work of others and putting his own
name on it, and wildly exaggerating his own accomplishments.
and then the date herr vicster "completed his coursework for da doctorate".. when's that fit in this India trip timeline? I think it was early early sixties.. maybe I'm wrong..
Am I correct in reading that VPW is claiming to have been at a conference that had already concluded months before he even left for India?
The discrepancies of the India itinerary that I see:
1) In pfal, vpw claims with great bravado how "the doors of India opened wide for his ministry".....yet, all evidence points to Bishop KC Pillai contacting Dr. I.S. Williams to help wierwille, as wierwille hosted bishop pillai. All meetings to all officials and the Jains convention were opened by the prominent figure, Dr. I.S. Williams. Wierwille's claims of "greatness in India" don't fly.......nor did wierwille ever return.
2) "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions" pamphlet that wierwille wrote after returning to USA.....this research, reporting and documenting was ALREADY IN PROCESS TWO YEARS EARLIER by India commissions and governing boards.
3) Mrs. Wierwille's book is in error. So far from what I've uncovered, it looks like the man who hosted the wierwille's was Dr. I.S. Williams.....NOT "Dr. J.S. Williams. Maybe, Mrs. Wierwille and Karen couldn't read her notes and it was an honest mistake and type. Or, was it a cover-up of facts?
4) With all of vpw's boasting......NOW it opens suspicion of him exaggerating OTHER FACTS. Did the Jabalpur "healing" really happen as described? Did vpw get "the keys to the city" as he claimed? Why such a "private" gesture and not a public meeting for all to see?
The India Itinerary covered some 20 cities in about 3 1/2 months.....
p. 131 Born Again to Serve
"On November 21, 22, and 23 in the city of Ujjain, Dr. Wierwille addressed a three-day annual convention of the Terapanthi Jains, knownas the Anuverat Movement. Dr. Wierwille was the first Christian ever to be invited to address this body. The Jains are a sect of Hindus and their leader was Acharaya Shri Tulsi, who spent much time in private telling us about the whole movement and asking questions of us. Dr. Wierwille remarked, 'I can say that the Acharaya is doing much for the building up of the moral and ethical structure of the Indian peoples.'"
No....I don't doubt that wierwille addressed this convention....BUT all evidence show that Dr. I.S. Williams was the prominent Christian man in this Hindu meeting and translated for wierwille. From what I see, wierwille got to preach for 15-20 minutes.....and that was it. The Jain convention lasted for 3 days......kinda like wierwille getting to speak at the "ROA Family Tables" as a sideshow to a much larger event. BIG DEAL..........hahahahahaha
For me, all those grandeur visions of wierwille as "the man of god of the world".........are gone.
The pride of man...........and mighty is its fall.
==============================
vpw went to India, hooked up with Williams, rode Williams' coattails all over
India, accepted honors based on being Williams' associate (like the key to the
city), and reported based on complaints of Williams when he returned.
Compared side-by-side, vpw was a rank amateur compared to Williams, and the
idea of Williams working FOR vpw is silly. I'm sure Williams wouldn't have taken
the idea seriously,
any more than Billy Graham or Oral Roberts would have taken seriously this
unknown guy suggesting "a collaboration of equals" when they were household names
and he was very much an unknown.
vpw had a consistent history of lying, using the work of others and putting his own
name on it, and wildly exaggerating his own accomplishments.
BINGO.
And THAT, my friends......is how wierwille "build his ministry" for all the world to see.
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teachmevp
Do these Hinduers eat cattle, I think VeePee ate hamburgers?
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skyrider
Wierwille spotlighted his "greatness" in the pfal class by making big fat claims....details that Mrs. Wierwille documents in her book in vivid contrast to vpw's bravado. When one steps back and examines weirwille's statements, it just doesn't add up. For instance:
1) E. Stanley Jones did extensive outreach in India....was wierwille claiming the same?
2) How did Wierwille make inroads to preach in India?
3) If Wierwille was so "great" for India....why only one itinerary?
4) Never to return to India after "given the key incident" seems highly suspect?
If one is interested, here are a link to check. The man who opened all the doors for Wierwille and Mrs. to the Jain convention was Dr. Williams....the head of the Federation of National Churches. Dr. Williams was a prominent man in India.
Narcisstic Self-Promotion
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What About It
I'm wondering now just how prominent Dr. Williams in India really was. Seems his family lives in New Bremen, Ohio. I know his granddaughter personally, and she has plenty of family--including Dr. Williams's wife (if she's still alive)--in the big city of New Bremen also. Perhaps Williams was living in New Bremen and that's how VP knew him? Don't know, just asking. But I'm tempted to call Williams's granddaughter and ask her for some info.
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Ham
Is this the same Williams? Only one to show up on the internet..
http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/williams.htm
http://users.rcn.com/alana.interport/eric.html
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What About It
Or is it this man?
http://www.faith2share.net/AboutUs/FAQs/WhoareF2SMembers/TheodoreWilliams/tabid/225/Default.aspx
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GrouchoMarxJr
...or is it THIS man?
http://www.tedwilliams.com/
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skyrider
Regarding Dr. Williams.....
Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve p. 125...
"By the time the host for our India tour, Dr. J.S. Williams, had come to our cabin to greet us, we had already left the ship to go through customs. So we met him in customs."
Note: Other credentials of Dr. Williams are noted in my earlier post from Mrs.' book.
**When I googled "All-India Federation of National Churches" from Mrs. Wierwille's book noting that Dr. J.S. Williams was the president, I found this link.
My link
**Note: Dr. I. S. Williams........NOT "Dr. J. S. Williams"
Then.....scroll down to No. 7
Is this the man? Look at this info?
Look at his rejection of foreign "denominational groups."
Look at what I bold-faced.
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OldSkool
Well, if it is, (and it sure seems to be) it sure shatters Victor Paul Wierwille's version of things.
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skyrider
ABSOLUTELY......it shatters the wierwille myth.
Dr. I.S. Williams was THE ONE who presided over the Jabalpur conference and, with respect to foreign preachers and missionaries, allowed wierwille to preach for 15 minutes. And, it seems rather odd and/or suspect that Mrs. Wierwille's book is in error as "Dr. J.S. Williams." Is it merely a typo?......or cover-up of the real facts?
And further.....whether the healing incident and/or "keys to the city" incident happened as were related in pfal is even more highly suspect. Is it not?
<_<
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Steve Lortz
Back in the late '80s, I had a copy of The Dilemma of Foreign Missions in India. If my memory serves me, Wierwille's pamphlet could well have been plagiarized from William's testimony.
Love,
Steve
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skyrider
Steve....as I read thru Dr. William's testimony on the above website, I thought the same thing!
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waysider
Not so much as even a brief mention of anyone receiving a "miraculous" healing.
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JavaJane
I used to wonder why there were no great healings in the PFAL books like this one that were done by VP except in India. I thought it had something to do with an abundance of unbelief in our modern society.
Now I am thinking it had more to do with it being a lot harder to debunk claims made in the far off exotic land of India.
I was soooooo naive!
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skyrider
Nope.......not a peep.
In piecing this together....(assuming Mrs. Wierwille's itinerary account is correct and Dr. I.S. William's statements are correct)....VPW and Mrs. were in Jabalpur, India on January 23, 1955. About four months later, June 4 and 5, 1955 Dr. I.S. Williams recounts a rally of the National Churches and resolution passed disapproving of the continuance of the denationalising foreign church administrative system in Free India and considers it baneful to the national interest of the people in India in general and the Christians in particular.
Dr. I.S. Williams is testifying of the actions he took in the interests of India and the growing concern of foreign missions.
No wonder vpw never returned to India for a follow-up itinerary.
Interesting stuff............
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skyrider
CORRECTION:
Vpw and Mrs. Wierwille's were in Jabalpur, India from January 17-23, 1956...not 1955. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a hodge-podge of events, dates, people and is ambiguous in areas. But under closer scrutiny....the India itinerary was from November 6, 1955 to February 11, 1956 visiting some 20 cities throughout India.
NOW....after reading Dr. I.S. Williams' testimony of June 4 and 5, 1955
....the plot thickens.
p. 172.....Mrs. Wierwille's book Born Again to Serve
"Dr. Wierwille had designated Dr. Williams as the general overseer of The Way of India, with its headquarters in Bombay, as had been voted at the convention held on February 9 and 10 [1956]. Branches for each state of India were to be established as soon as possible, all under and by the independent national Christians without a foreign system of control. Mr. James John was to be secretary for The Way of India."
What the heck???
Obviously, Dr. I.S. Williams NEVER signed on as "the general overseer of The Way of India."
Calling..........Sherlock Holmes.
Calling..........Wordwolf
:)
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OldSkool
Mrs. Wierwille's book, Born Again to Serve, was pieced together from notes in "Historical." Historical is basically a room in the OSC where books for the junk table, memorabilia, and other odds and ends are kept. She used her journal as well that she had kept for years. The book reflects the source. She had been working on a follow up book but fell ill and passed away soon after.
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dmiller
Who'd a thunk (back in the 1970's) to doubt the story of the "India Mission"? Especially in a "bible class"?
No "search engines" then. No computers or WWW. I guess you just had to take the MOG at his word, eh?
Snow on the gas pumps/ closed airport/ bright lights at PFAL filming/ and "miracles" on that trip to India???
All that and more leads me to honestly believe that docvic made ONE true statement, which was:
twi headquarters is located on the original Wierwille farm there in New Knoxville, Ohio.
But given everything else he said, even that might be considered suspect, eh?
Probably not, since the family name WAS painted on the top of the barn. What a long, strange trip it's been.
(edited to add - - - Thank you skyrider for those links. Shedding new light (maybe old light to some)
but it's NEW LIGHT to this generation.
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GrouchoMarxJr
It would seem that Wierwille's entire life indicates that he was nothing more than a bull **** artist.
In hindsight...is anyone surprised?
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skyrider
At the bottom of this link [posted above and now here]....Click here
...is a "Back to Contents Page" link....Vindicated by Time
Lots of stuff here if someone really wants to delve into it.
But.....it looks like "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions" research was well underway in 1954 and finalized in April of 1956 before wierwille wrote his little pamphet in Nov/Dec of 1956. Once again....it looks like wierwille tried to pass of "his work of the foreign missions" WHEN IT CLEARLY WAS ALREADY IN THE FINAL PHASE IN INDIA.
And this....
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Broken Arrow
Am I correct in reading that VPW is claiming to have been at a conference that had already concluded months before he even left for India?
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Ham
Just wonder, where does "accused of having indiscretions with church secretary" play in the timeline here?
I think it's not too far off the topic. Herr vicster would have a *serious* ax to grind with the denomination..
would give him a pretty good motive to do and say what he did..
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WordWolf
vpw could designate anyone anything he wanted- that didn't mean they knew,
or would take it seriously if they knew.
I once got some information for a friend. Some of it arrived by mail and
was addressed to me, and it was from an insurance company about insuring
an event. Under my name, for some reason, they'd added
"insurance coordinator" before the name of the friend's organization.
My friend said, "Well, congratulations-you're now our insurance coordinator."
Flatly, I replied "I can't tell you what this means to me", which obviously
meant I don't have the words to express how little it meant.
Anyway, they gave me that title, but it carried no force- we didn't take it
seriously. So, vpw can decide to call someone "India coordinator", but be
met with mild amusement at best, if he ever told them.
(We know the guy acted as if he either didn't know, or didn't take it
seriously- he did his work and ignored what the title would mean.)
==============================
vpw went to India, hooked up with Williams, rode Williams' coattails all over
India, accepted honors based on being Williams' associate (like the key to the
city), and reported based on complaints of Williams when he returned.
Compared side-by-side, vpw was a rank amateur compared to Williams, and the
idea of Williams working FOR vpw is silly. I'm sure Williams wouldn't have taken
the idea seriously,
any more than Billy Graham or Oral Roberts would have taken seriously this
unknown guy suggesting "a collaboration of equals" when they were household names
and he was very much an unknown.
vpw had a consistent history of lying, using the work of others and putting his own
name on it, and wildly exaggerating his own accomplishments.
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Ham
and then the date herr vicster "completed his coursework for da doctorate".. when's that fit in this India trip timeline? I think it was early early sixties.. maybe I'm wrong..
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skyrider
The discrepancies of the India itinerary that I see:
1) In pfal, vpw claims with great bravado how "the doors of India opened wide for his ministry".....yet, all evidence points to Bishop KC Pillai contacting Dr. I.S. Williams to help wierwille, as wierwille hosted bishop pillai. All meetings to all officials and the Jains convention were opened by the prominent figure, Dr. I.S. Williams. Wierwille's claims of "greatness in India" don't fly.......nor did wierwille ever return.
2) "The Dilemma of Foreign Missions" pamphlet that wierwille wrote after returning to USA.....this research, reporting and documenting was ALREADY IN PROCESS TWO YEARS EARLIER by India commissions and governing boards.
3) Mrs. Wierwille's book is in error. So far from what I've uncovered, it looks like the man who hosted the wierwille's was Dr. I.S. Williams.....NOT "Dr. J.S. Williams. Maybe, Mrs. Wierwille and Karen couldn't read her notes and it was an honest mistake and type. Or, was it a cover-up of facts?
4) With all of vpw's boasting......NOW it opens suspicion of him exaggerating OTHER FACTS. Did the Jabalpur "healing" really happen as described? Did vpw get "the keys to the city" as he claimed? Why such a "private" gesture and not a public meeting for all to see?
The India Itinerary covered some 20 cities in about 3 1/2 months.....
p. 131 Born Again to Serve
"On November 21, 22, and 23 in the city of Ujjain, Dr. Wierwille addressed a three-day annual convention of the Terapanthi Jains, knownas the Anuverat Movement. Dr. Wierwille was the first Christian ever to be invited to address this body. The Jains are a sect of Hindus and their leader was Acharaya Shri Tulsi, who spent much time in private telling us about the whole movement and asking questions of us. Dr. Wierwille remarked, 'I can say that the Acharaya is doing much for the building up of the moral and ethical structure of the Indian peoples.'"
No....I don't doubt that wierwille addressed this convention....BUT all evidence show that Dr. I.S. Williams was the prominent Christian man in this Hindu meeting and translated for wierwille. From what I see, wierwille got to preach for 15-20 minutes.....and that was it. The Jain convention lasted for 3 days......kinda like wierwille getting to speak at the "ROA Family Tables" as a sideshow to a much larger event. BIG DEAL..........hahahahahaha
For me, all those grandeur visions of wierwille as "the man of god of the world".........are gone.
The pride of man...........and mighty is its fall.
BINGO.
And THAT, my friends......is how wierwille "build his ministry" for all the world to see.
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