The rest of the goon squad went on to start splinter groups that provide a "good" lifestyle for them selves...Shoenheit, Lynn, Finnigan, Geer,...and a host of others (including Dale Sides)...
...but not lcm...what gives loy? Thought you were committed?
How come loy never started another group?...was it part of the deal with the prosecutor?
The difference is......
After LCM graduated from the 2nd corps, he was consistently assigned to hq-staff positions....ie corps director, president-elect, president. At NO interval was LCM sent on the field to run a Limb or Region (maybe Oklahoma, for a short year, ??)....to make his mark (mark off territory) and establish a loyal following like the other splinter guys.
Shr0yer...........Florida/Ohio
S33d..............California
Lynn..............Indiana
Finnig@n..........New York
C@rr..............New York
Geer..............New England area/International
S@nn..............Montana/Idaho
Many of the splinter guys were Region guys who simply STAYED IN THE REGIONS after Geer's poop paper hit the toilet. No stress, so strain......these guys just assumed "the top position" of new structures, new splinter groups.
LCM had NO "base camp" to return to.......he was NEVER on the field in any major position of authority. In many ways, he was an exception to the rule......most all other 'leaders' were sent on field assignments throughout their twi tenure.
Just a guess here: Geer, Lynn, Finnegan, Sides etc etc. all wanted to be the head honcho, but were small fish so eventually started their own things.
In contrast Craig WAS the head honcho--after going through that hellish nightmare of being the topdog topdog of TWI during its fall and near destruction ---who would ever want to do it all over again??
Skyrider, I think you gave a very good reason. LCM never did go on the "field." I know in NYC, VF had been in NY for awhile, so everyone just kind of gravitated towards him. All he had to do was have some large limb meetings and advances and it was easy for the people - they basically did the same things they always did, just didn't hear from HQ anymore.
Same with the guys in Ohio (Merrill, Townsend, Burke, Wajnberg, Wrens, Clark and others) - they all had built a reputation over the years and people willingly followed.
LCM never had a field following.
All my years with TWI, I never heard of LCM or his wife ever winning anyone. They'd travel around, visit, you would think they would have set the example for others to follow and won someone.
Did you ever notice the "leadership" from HQ never witnessed? I guess they figured they paid their dues, were in top positions, and - what did they care?
I remember one time VP said some of them should go on the field and they started quaking in their boots. The whole TWI would be watching if they could win people and run back to back classes - you know darn well they couldn't.
Sometimes, while in residence, it was amazing to hear people being groomed for leadership in TWI, sent on the field their interim year give excuses why they couldn't get classes together.
I think LCM was lots of talk, as were others. The field guys, who liked being on the field, and spent years there, were actually pretty good at it.
I'm sure when I was in rez LCM used to boast about having run a ??branch?? with just a filing box and a table. He was making the point that branch leaders were wanting big offices, computers, fancy gear (in his opinion) and he managed to do it with just minimal stuff. And (he told us) he could go out and do it again if he needed to.
Well. Maybe he doesn't need to.
Sure as eggs is eggs, the world doesn't need him to, either.
Course, with so many records that came to be demanded about fellowship attendees, it'd need to be a mighty big filing box now.
I don't know if LCM ever won anyone to da verd, but I do know he bragged about a time when the Ernst and Young auditors asked for his autograph on their TWI coffee table book. It was such a joyous occasion that someone from the world was so impressed with the MOGFAT. It was shared at lunch one day.
I took the foundational class in July '80, and the last TWI function I attended was ROA '87 (to haul as many people as I could off into the woods to tell them about the adultery). I think I was involved with about 30 classes. As a twig coordinator in 1985, I ran a foundational class at the twig level. We bent over backwards, and broke every rule so that people could finish the class.
In '86, after Geer read POP, Martindale started saying the ministry was in trouble because the people on the field weren't being strict enough running classes, and the quality of all the new grads was too low.
That's when I realized that Martindale, the president of the whole organization, had NO IDEA of what it took to run a class in the field. That's when I lost all respect for him. About six months later, I found out about the adultery, and that very day, I disassociated myself from The Way International. I spent the next year or so talking to people I had gotten into the Way, telling them why I had gotten out, and why I thought they should, too. Most of that was face to face. There was no internet back then!
After LCM graduated from the 2nd corps, he was consistently assigned to hq-staff positions....ie corps director, president-elect, president. At NO interval was LCM sent on the field to run a Limb or Region (maybe Oklahoma, for a short year, ??)....to make his mark (mark off territory) and establish a loyal following like the other splinter guys.
Shr0yer...........Florida/Ohio
S33d..............California
Lynn..............Indiana
Finnig@n..........New York
C@rr..............New York
Geer..............New England area/International
S@nn..............Montana/Idaho
Many of the splinter guys were Region guys who simply STAYED IN THE REGIONS after Geer's poop paper hit the toilet. No stress, so strain......these guys just assumed "the top position" of new structures, new splinter groups.
LCM had NO "base camp" to return to.......he was NEVER on the field in any major position of authority. In many ways, he was an exception to the rule......most all other 'leaders' were sent on field assignments throughout their twi tenure.
Skyrider, I think you gave a very good reason. LCM never did go on the "field." I know in NYC, VF had been in NY for awhile, so everyone just kind of gravitated towards him. All he had to do was have some large limb meetings and advances and it was easy for the people - they basically did the same things they always did, just didn't hear from HQ anymore.
Same with the guys in Ohio (Merrill, Townsend, Burke, Wajnberg, Wrens, Clark and others) - they all had built a reputation over the years and people willingly followed.
LCM never had a field following.
All my years with TWI, I never heard of LCM or his wife ever winning anyone. They'd travel around, visit, you would think they would have set the example for others to follow and won someone.
Did you ever notice the "leadership" from HQ never witnessed? I guess they figured they paid their dues, were in top positions, and - what did they care?
I remember one time VP said some of them should go on the field and they started quaking in their boots. The whole TWI would be watching if they could win people and run back to back classes - you know darn well they couldn't.
Sometimes, while in residence, it was amazing to hear people being groomed for leadership in TWI, sent on the field their interim year give excuses why they couldn't get classes together.
I think LCM was lots of talk, as were others. The field guys, who liked being on the field, and spent years there, were actually pretty good at it.
Just to clarify about VF and New York as a whole....
I'd seen VF run Limb meetings, and occasionally come down to NYC for at least 1 Territory meeting
I was at. I knew he'd had a bunch of offices at hq in the past, including Worldwide Outreach
Coordinator, and IIRC, Trunk Coordinator, so I knew he'd been experienced as twi goes.
So, I'd seen him teach, and knew he had experience running things.
I knew the Territory Coordinators in NYC all either by personal interaction or by reputation.
By reputation, I mean people I'd interacted with a lot had interacted with them, and they
"vetted" all those people, and Branch Coordinators and so on.
lcm I'd seen at the podium, occasionally speaking loudly on subjects I disagreed with him on.
I felt he emphasized style over substance too much for my taste, and even made some
OBVIOUS mistakes, either in the interest of being cutesy, error, or carelessness that allowed
him to, again, put style over substance. What little I'd heard during the fog years about
him seemed to mean he had problems which could be fixed, and I expected the other top officers
of twi to handle that- Region Coordinators, etc. I figured VF was on the short list of people
who would do just that. I even gave that opinion to someone.
About a week later, I got a letter in the mail from lcm saying that he was firing, in essence,
all the leaders in NY State (naming each one), because they were corrupt. Now, here was a
difference of opinion. Some people said lcm was "off". lcm said some other people were "off."
Now, I'd had a chance to see the others in action, and I was fairly confident that, as a whole,
they were not "off." (I don't think the Branch/Territory coordinators here were complicit in
twi's crimes.) Therefore, when lcm insisted they were corrupt, and made an unBiblical command
to choose among men, I knew what decision I would make, even if I made it alone. I was pleased
not to have to MAKE it alone- lcm fired the entire state's staff, so they kept the state
structure intact and just proceeded from there. I wasn't extensively "vetted" for VF, but those
who WERE vetted trusted him, so I thought that was sufficient. (Well, I think he was more
trustworthy than lcm, and I think that was a reliable conclusion even now.)
For what it's worth, S@nn isn't in Idaho anymore, @rmstrong is. M3rrill, W@junberg, Luk3, Wr3nn, and Burk3 are in Ohio. I can't speak much for what any of them are doing now. Burk3 and K. McC@w are heading up a splinter in Central Ohio with Burk3 as the main leader. They've actually built a building the size of a church. It's not called a church, though. I think they call it a "Fellowship Hall", or "Fellowship House" maybe? I dunno. "Kingdom Hall"? (I'm just kidding, they don't call it a Kingdom Hall.)
BTW, as often happens here, we discussed this before.
Here's the threads I know about....
Here's what I said on both:
" Seriously?
A) Towards the end, he wandered around campus,
addled, and confused as to how the women in his life had set him
up as the sole perpetrator of all the sins of the inner circle.
B) He was successfully labelled as the Single Villain. Therefore,
he can't build a base with ex-twi or CURRENT twi.
Supposedly, one man claimed if he had even 7 totally loyal men,
he could start a religion. lcm is short 7 men for even that much.
C) lcm lacks the skills to build himself up as a religious leader
to more than a boy scout troop. lcm was coccooned into twi at an
early age, and only retains the skills he learned thru college
(mostly athletics) and the skills he learned since then
(mostly, how to bark orders and micromanage.) Like a career
politician, he's out of touch with how real people live, how real
Christians think, and what they care about. He'd be a missionary
to a foreign country, whose customs are nearly incomprehensible.
(Unless he's learned humility since then-if he has, he may
understand, but understands he will only harm himself or others if
he takes the big chair.)
D) lcm doesn't have anything to offer people. His understanding
of Scripture is sub-standard among average Christians,
and his manner is abrasive. He can't get converts from people who
just want him to shut up."
Sunesis said
After it was announced LCM would be pres., I was really quite surprised to hear many men in leadership - revs. - privately say how they never liked him and, as one man said of LCM, "he is a cocky jock." This surprised me because these were some loyal, top leadership. I think they were following him, because they were loyal to VP and LCM was VP's annointed one. They did it out of loyalty to VP. But, there was no loyalty to LCM, I think that's why pretty much no one did form loyal LCM splinter groups that I know of. You can also see how little loyalty there was to LCM after the mass 86-88 exodus of the older, original hippie generation, leaving LCM with the young 20 year olds to lead. Pretty much all of us who had gotten in early - late /60s-early 70s, had now grown up, and weren't about to follow anyone anymore.
Skyrider, I think you gave a very good reason. LCM never did go on the "field." I know in NYC, VF had been in NY for awhile, so everyone just kind of gravitated towards him. All he had to do was have some large limb meetings and advances and it was easy for the people - they basically did the same things they always did, just didn't hear from HQ anymore.
Same with the guys in Ohio (Merrill, Townsend, Burke, Wajnberg, Wrens, Clark and others) - they all had built a reputation over the years and people willingly followed.
Thanks, Sunesis.
Several other points converge as well......by 1986, when Geer read that poop paper, the allegations raised plenty of suspicion and confusion. Plus, for wannabe splinter leaders, the "exit door" opened wide for a mass exodus.....and thousands were conditioned to seek another mog to guide them.
By then (1987)......most of these guys were 35 to 45 years old with wife and children in tow. They NEEDED jobs, but not something at the entry level. Having spent the past 15 years in the twi-cult world, those clergy titles didn't translate into professional skills at a corporate level. Sliding into the 'big chair' was the obvious transition.
Region guys had the greatest access to names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.....sitting there like a duck.
I know here in Ohio, they've kept their thing going for years now.
This is very very sad in my opinion. It's the place to be, though, if you want the familiar feel of TWI without having to go to headquarters and deal with the leadership there.
These groups are more dangerous, imo, than even TWI in that their only accountability is within themselves. I mean it. Not just annoying, dangerous. They are still elitist, like TWI, because they heard the "real truth" taught in PFAL. There is no one to check their egos. They are self-appointed "Men of God" who cannot be replaced or confronted when their conduct falls short of scripture.
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What About It
Maybe a lack of credibility after the whole sex fiasco blew up in his face?
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Ham
maybe.. hum..
maybe he's hiding out in a titanic bunker somewhere on the east coast with geero, waiting for the allied forces to pass on by..
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waysider
The opera ain't over 'til the fat dude in leotards sings.
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Bolshevik
Older . . . Kids. . . . More legal junk . . .
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skyrider
The difference is......
After LCM graduated from the 2nd corps, he was consistently assigned to hq-staff positions....ie corps director, president-elect, president. At NO interval was LCM sent on the field to run a Limb or Region (maybe Oklahoma, for a short year, ??)....to make his mark (mark off territory) and establish a loyal following like the other splinter guys.
Shr0yer...........Florida/Ohio
S33d..............California
Lynn..............Indiana
Finnig@n..........New York
C@rr..............New York
Geer..............New England area/International
S@nn..............Montana/Idaho
Many of the splinter guys were Region guys who simply STAYED IN THE REGIONS after Geer's poop paper hit the toilet. No stress, so strain......these guys just assumed "the top position" of new structures, new splinter groups.
LCM had NO "base camp" to return to.......he was NEVER on the field in any major position of authority. In many ways, he was an exception to the rule......most all other 'leaders' were sent on field assignments throughout their twi tenure.
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mstar1
Just a guess here: Geer, Lynn, Finnegan, Sides etc etc. all wanted to be the head honcho, but were small fish so eventually started their own things.
In contrast Craig WAS the head honcho--after going through that hellish nightmare of being the topdog topdog of TWI during its fall and near destruction ---who would ever want to do it all over again??
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Belle
He couldn't immediately after the lawsuits and, well, now, those double shifts at Home Depot wreak havoc on a guy's schedule.
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waysider
Shouldn't he be believing for a work schedule that will allow him time for doing ministry work?
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Nottawayfer
I wonder how many fans the Forehead really has. I suppose there are very few, if any.
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Bolshevik
many sheeple followed lcm cause he was the guy vpw chose . . . lcm kinda handed it off to rosie publicly . . . any fans are likely following rosie
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Rejoice
His daughter is on FB. Old Craiggers is a GramPaw now.
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Sunesis
Skyrider, I think you gave a very good reason. LCM never did go on the "field." I know in NYC, VF had been in NY for awhile, so everyone just kind of gravitated towards him. All he had to do was have some large limb meetings and advances and it was easy for the people - they basically did the same things they always did, just didn't hear from HQ anymore.
Same with the guys in Ohio (Merrill, Townsend, Burke, Wajnberg, Wrens, Clark and others) - they all had built a reputation over the years and people willingly followed.
LCM never had a field following.
All my years with TWI, I never heard of LCM or his wife ever winning anyone. They'd travel around, visit, you would think they would have set the example for others to follow and won someone.
Did you ever notice the "leadership" from HQ never witnessed? I guess they figured they paid their dues, were in top positions, and - what did they care?
I remember one time VP said some of them should go on the field and they started quaking in their boots. The whole TWI would be watching if they could win people and run back to back classes - you know darn well they couldn't.
Sometimes, while in residence, it was amazing to hear people being groomed for leadership in TWI, sent on the field their interim year give excuses why they couldn't get classes together.
I think LCM was lots of talk, as were others. The field guys, who liked being on the field, and spent years there, were actually pretty good at it.
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Twinky
I'm sure when I was in rez LCM used to boast about having run a ??branch?? with just a filing box and a table. He was making the point that branch leaders were wanting big offices, computers, fancy gear (in his opinion) and he managed to do it with just minimal stuff. And (he told us) he could go out and do it again if he needed to.
Well. Maybe he doesn't need to.
Sure as eggs is eggs, the world doesn't need him to, either.
Course, with so many records that came to be demanded about fellowship attendees, it'd need to be a mighty big filing box now.
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Ham
why is it "sheeple" appeared in my mind before you even mentioned the word..
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excathedra
i hope it's because he realizes he's pppphhhhhuuuucccckkkkked
i'd like to see rosie and her mate go out there
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Nottawayfer
I don't know if LCM ever won anyone to da verd, but I do know he bragged about a time when the Ernst and Young auditors asked for his autograph on their TWI coffee table book. It was such a joyous occasion that someone from the world was so impressed with the MOGFAT. It was shared at lunch one day.
[trying to find the puke emoticon.....]
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Steve Lortz
I took the foundational class in July '80, and the last TWI function I attended was ROA '87 (to haul as many people as I could off into the woods to tell them about the adultery). I think I was involved with about 30 classes. As a twig coordinator in 1985, I ran a foundational class at the twig level. We bent over backwards, and broke every rule so that people could finish the class.
In '86, after Geer read POP, Martindale started saying the ministry was in trouble because the people on the field weren't being strict enough running classes, and the quality of all the new grads was too low.
That's when I realized that Martindale, the president of the whole organization, had NO IDEA of what it took to run a class in the field. That's when I lost all respect for him. About six months later, I found out about the adultery, and that very day, I disassociated myself from The Way International. I spent the next year or so talking to people I had gotten into the Way, telling them why I had gotten out, and why I thought they should, too. Most of that was face to face. There was no internet back then!
Love,
Steve
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krys
Pardon - - C@rr went to New Jersey
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WordWolf
Just to clarify about VF and New York as a whole....
I'd seen VF run Limb meetings, and occasionally come down to NYC for at least 1 Territory meeting
I was at. I knew he'd had a bunch of offices at hq in the past, including Worldwide Outreach
Coordinator, and IIRC, Trunk Coordinator, so I knew he'd been experienced as twi goes.
So, I'd seen him teach, and knew he had experience running things.
I knew the Territory Coordinators in NYC all either by personal interaction or by reputation.
By reputation, I mean people I'd interacted with a lot had interacted with them, and they
"vetted" all those people, and Branch Coordinators and so on.
lcm I'd seen at the podium, occasionally speaking loudly on subjects I disagreed with him on.
I felt he emphasized style over substance too much for my taste, and even made some
OBVIOUS mistakes, either in the interest of being cutesy, error, or carelessness that allowed
him to, again, put style over substance. What little I'd heard during the fog years about
him seemed to mean he had problems which could be fixed, and I expected the other top officers
of twi to handle that- Region Coordinators, etc. I figured VF was on the short list of people
who would do just that. I even gave that opinion to someone.
About a week later, I got a letter in the mail from lcm saying that he was firing, in essence,
all the leaders in NY State (naming each one), because they were corrupt. Now, here was a
difference of opinion. Some people said lcm was "off". lcm said some other people were "off."
Now, I'd had a chance to see the others in action, and I was fairly confident that, as a whole,
they were not "off." (I don't think the Branch/Territory coordinators here were complicit in
twi's crimes.) Therefore, when lcm insisted they were corrupt, and made an unBiblical command
to choose among men, I knew what decision I would make, even if I made it alone. I was pleased
not to have to MAKE it alone- lcm fired the entire state's staff, so they kept the state
structure intact and just proceeded from there. I wasn't extensively "vetted" for VF, but those
who WERE vetted trusted him, so I thought that was sufficient. (Well, I think he was more
trustworthy than lcm, and I think that was a reliable conclusion even now.)
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Broken Arrow
For what it's worth, S@nn isn't in Idaho anymore, @rmstrong is. M3rrill, W@junberg, Luk3, Wr3nn, and Burk3 are in Ohio. I can't speak much for what any of them are doing now. Burk3 and K. McC@w are heading up a splinter in Central Ohio with Burk3 as the main leader. They've actually built a building the size of a church. It's not called a church, though. I think they call it a "Fellowship Hall", or "Fellowship House" maybe? I dunno. "Kingdom Hall"? (I'm just kidding, they don't call it a Kingdom Hall.)
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WordWolf
BTW, as often happens here, we discussed this before.
Here's the threads I know about....
Here's what I said on both:
" Seriously?
A) Towards the end, he wandered around campus,
addled, and confused as to how the women in his life had set him
up as the sole perpetrator of all the sins of the inner circle.
B) He was successfully labelled as the Single Villain. Therefore,
he can't build a base with ex-twi or CURRENT twi.
Supposedly, one man claimed if he had even 7 totally loyal men,
he could start a religion. lcm is short 7 men for even that much.
C) lcm lacks the skills to build himself up as a religious leader
to more than a boy scout troop. lcm was coccooned into twi at an
early age, and only retains the skills he learned thru college
(mostly athletics) and the skills he learned since then
(mostly, how to bark orders and micromanage.) Like a career
politician, he's out of touch with how real people live, how real
Christians think, and what they care about. He'd be a missionary
to a foreign country, whose customs are nearly incomprehensible.
(Unless he's learned humility since then-if he has, he may
understand, but understands he will only harm himself or others if
he takes the big chair.)
D) lcm doesn't have anything to offer people. His understanding
of Scripture is sub-standard among average Christians,
and his manner is abrasive. He can't get converts from people who
just want him to shut up."
Sunesis said
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skyrider
Thanks, Sunesis.
Several other points converge as well......by 1986, when Geer read that poop paper, the allegations raised plenty of suspicion and confusion. Plus, for wannabe splinter leaders, the "exit door" opened wide for a mass exodus.....and thousands were conditioned to seek another mog to guide them.
By then (1987)......most of these guys were 35 to 45 years old with wife and children in tow. They NEEDED jobs, but not something at the entry level. Having spent the past 15 years in the twi-cult world, those clergy titles didn't translate into professional skills at a corporate level. Sliding into the 'big chair' was the obvious transition.
Region guys had the greatest access to names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.....sitting there like a duck.
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Sunesis
Skyrider - excellent point about the region, and even the limb leaders having all the names and addys.
I know here in Ohio, they've kept their thing going for years now.
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Broken Arrow
This is very very sad in my opinion. It's the place to be, though, if you want the familiar feel of TWI without having to go to headquarters and deal with the leadership there.
These groups are more dangerous, imo, than even TWI in that their only accountability is within themselves. I mean it. Not just annoying, dangerous. They are still elitist, like TWI, because they heard the "real truth" taught in PFAL. There is no one to check their egos. They are self-appointed "Men of God" who cannot be replaced or confronted when their conduct falls short of scripture.
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