I have to wonder at that Bolshivik. I mean is different - better?
or jmust different?
Oh I know some people say all thing continue as they have from the beginning, But God marks out differences. Maybe different is diversity not some - One better than another thing. Maybe the problem is Thinking youcan never have differences without one being superior to another
People do that crap, i wonder though, if God does - Perhaps He loves us all even if we do different things in eternity...?
feh,.... I've never worried about the "Godhead" whether three or one. Not sure anyone is ever gonna understand it in a human lifetime. But if we have eternity, and time to get to know Him - It'll get a lot clearer when God "shakes our hand" so to speak. My concern today is all about taking off a day from My dear Nurse Ratchet, My Physical Therapist who thinks pain is my favorite activity.
Maybe the roots are in Cliffe's many works like "Let go and let god" VeePee put a lot of trust in that John 10:10 abundant life teaching, maybe that is were that Elitism started from, their life is more abundant, than the worlds?
Where did that idea come from? (Was it borrowed from some other group?)
As a kid it bothered me a bit that I was more holy than Moses, and would get better "benefits" in eternity, guys and gals like him would oooo and ahhh when a wayfer walks by . . . like my life is a fraction as interesting as his was (assuming for sake of argument he existed).
as weird as it sounds.. I think it is a contamination of our former selves from "the other side"..
sorry, you asked..
the whole problem here.. everybody in the stinking creation is holier than hell..
lol Teach you mean, God's Dead! Show's Over! Move along?
Nietzsche is known most for saying God is dead, that is true. But he said a lot more and his "thing" was the survival of the fittest philosophy.
Nietzsche, for example, would not be in favor of helping out someone in need. He was into natural selection and said the weak must die, or at least get out of the way and not be a bother. Helping the weak, in Nietzsche's opinion, held back the strong.
He would not be in favor of government funds going to help the poor. In fact, he would not be in favor of anyone helping the poor at all, or the elderly, or the sick and on and on.
Hitler adopted a lot of this philosophy with National Socialism and his extermination of races and people groups he decided were weak such as the Jews. Hitler also exterminated homosexuals and the insane.
Nietzsche is also credited with the popular saying, "That which does not kill us makes us stronger".
Elitism, if I'm not mistaken, is a hallmark of gnosticism. That is, there are a certain few who are entrusted with "special", or "higher knowledge". I'm sure it existed before that. Weren't the Pharisees and Saducees elitist?
It's also been very well bred into the American culture.
Gnosticism, thanks for that, don't they have that level thing, or something like that?
Gnosticism during the 2nd century and a little beyond had a belief that the material world and one's physical body trapped people on this earth and that we can break free from this by obtaining a "special knowledge". So, yes, there were levels of spirituality in cerain forms of gnosticism. However, gnosticism takes on many forms and can be expressed all the way from extreme hedonism all the way to extreme stoicism.
There were degrees of gnosticism with TWI, imo. There was an elite few who knew the "secrets", and the initiation was PFAL. The next level was Advanced Class grad, Corps Grad, clergy, BOT, MOGFOT, then God. There was also a belief that what one does with their physical body was irrelevant and "did not affect a person's spirit".I believe that was one of the "inner secrets" known by a chosen few. You won't hear that on a public teaching tape or anything.
There are some posters here, though who have pointed out that while there were elements of gnosticism in TWI, TWI was not complete gnosticism. TWI was/is a hodpodge of different things.
I thinking more specifically of elitism in the afterlife . . . (which would affect one's thoughts here and now) . . . were gnostics big on an afterlife?
From what I remember, I don't think the Israelites had any definitive belief regarding the afterlife. There is certainly very little information on the matter in the O.T. books that comprise The Torah. The real emphasis is placed on what one accomplishes in this present lifetime here on earth.
I never heard the phrase "eternal elitism" used in the Way, up to and including the year 1989, but can't speak for after that.
Elitism - this in Wikipeedonit is informative. I'm careful about Wikipedia, but this addresses some aspects of what's being discussed here I think.
Dunno if I've ever chimed in on the Gnostic/Wayfer comparison before but I'd agree that the Way Nash wasn't gnostic, looking at the major streams of thought in gnostic beliefs and traditions.
Thinking one is better than another and more capable of (x whatever) appears to be an aspect of human development. One can very well be better than another in any number of considerations - more knowledgable, more experienced, more influential, more this or that. How that plays out - whole different topic.
God Himself describes His ways as "higher" than ours. God's reluctance to have a name, a place to put "Him" when referred to demonstrates that I think. Creator, Father, Just - these describe different aspects of how we might view God as ultimate authority but only describe in part.
Jesus described the Kingdom of God where many who are first will be last, and vice versa. He describes the greatest as being the servant of all - in effect lesser by certain standards but greater by others.
Modern society loves to reward and recognize "success stories" where someone works their way....up...from the bottom. In many societies past that wasn't possible to do regardless of the service you provided, as those who recognized it didn't, wouldn't or couldn't elevate that person "higher". So...if we think about it the dynamics involved in the processes of the "Kingdom of God" and that arena are very different than what we see in life if we distinguish ourselves without the recognition of others. And if that's reflected in this life, it requires a different way of actually hmmm, seeing stuff.
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Gen-2
I have to wonder at that Bolshivik. I mean is different - better?
or jmust different?
Oh I know some people say all thing continue as they have from the beginning, But God marks out differences. Maybe different is diversity not some - One better than another thing. Maybe the problem is Thinking youcan never have differences without one being superior to another
People do that crap, i wonder though, if God does - Perhaps He loves us all even if we do different things in eternity...?
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Bolshevik
little deeper than I expected . . . but you might be right
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teachmevp
Maybe the Philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche?
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Gen-2
lol Teach you mean, God's Dead! Show's Over! Move along?
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teachmevp
Yes, that three-in-one god is dead?
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Gen-2
feh,.... I've never worried about the "Godhead" whether three or one. Not sure anyone is ever gonna understand it in a human lifetime. But if we have eternity, and time to get to know Him - It'll get a lot clearer when God "shakes our hand" so to speak. My concern today is all about taking off a day from My dear Nurse Ratchet, My Physical Therapist who thinks pain is my favorite activity.
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teachmevp
I just stubbled across this name doing a search on Eternal Elitism, it might have helped, it might not have.
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ChasUFarley
It's not like the idea of spiritual elitism was TWI's idea, since they never had an original idea.
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teachmevp
Thanks for that, it seemed that Nietzsche was a run of the mill teaching.
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Bolshevik
right, I'm wondering if anyone's traced it or not
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teachmevp
Maybe the roots are in Cliffe's many works like "Let go and let god" VeePee put a lot of trust in that John 10:10 abundant life teaching, maybe that is were that Elitism started from, their life is more abundant, than the worlds?
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Ham
as weird as it sounds.. I think it is a contamination of our former selves from "the other side"..
sorry, you asked..
the whole problem here.. everybody in the stinking creation is holier than hell..
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Ham
maybe the question should be..
where do the holy umemployed go..
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Broken Arrow
Nietzsche is known most for saying God is dead, that is true. But he said a lot more and his "thing" was the survival of the fittest philosophy.
Nietzsche, for example, would not be in favor of helping out someone in need. He was into natural selection and said the weak must die, or at least get out of the way and not be a bother. Helping the weak, in Nietzsche's opinion, held back the strong.
He would not be in favor of government funds going to help the poor. In fact, he would not be in favor of anyone helping the poor at all, or the elderly, or the sick and on and on.
Hitler adopted a lot of this philosophy with National Socialism and his extermination of races and people groups he decided were weak such as the Jews. Hitler also exterminated homosexuals and the insane.
Nietzsche is also credited with the popular saying, "That which does not kill us makes us stronger".
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Broken Arrow
Elitism, if I'm not mistaken, is a hallmark of gnosticism. That is, there are a certain few who are entrusted with "special", or "higher knowledge". I'm sure it existed before that. Weren't the Pharisees and Saducees elitist?
It's also been very well bred into the American culture.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Toledo, Ohio?
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teachmevp
Gnosticism, thanks for that, don't they have that level thing, or something like that?
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Broken Arrow
Gnosticism during the 2nd century and a little beyond had a belief that the material world and one's physical body trapped people on this earth and that we can break free from this by obtaining a "special knowledge". So, yes, there were levels of spirituality in cerain forms of gnosticism. However, gnosticism takes on many forms and can be expressed all the way from extreme hedonism all the way to extreme stoicism.
There were degrees of gnosticism with TWI, imo. There was an elite few who knew the "secrets", and the initiation was PFAL. The next level was Advanced Class grad, Corps Grad, clergy, BOT, MOGFOT, then God. There was also a belief that what one does with their physical body was irrelevant and "did not affect a person's spirit".I believe that was one of the "inner secrets" known by a chosen few. You won't hear that on a public teaching tape or anything.
There are some posters here, though who have pointed out that while there were elements of gnosticism in TWI, TWI was not complete gnosticism. TWI was/is a hodpodge of different things.
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Bolshevik
I thinking more specifically of elitism in the afterlife . . . (which would affect one's thoughts here and now) . . . were gnostics big on an afterlife?
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teachmevp
Did the Israelites have this "Spiritually" that is taught in all it's forms and twist about Elitism in the afterlife today?
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waysider
Did the Israelites believe in an afterlife?
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teachmevp
Martha said about her brother, we know at the resurrection he will live.
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waysider
From what I remember, I don't think the Israelites had any definitive belief regarding the afterlife. There is certainly very little information on the matter in the O.T. books that comprise The Torah. The real emphasis is placed on what one accomplishes in this present lifetime here on earth.
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socks
I never heard the phrase "eternal elitism" used in the Way, up to and including the year 1989, but can't speak for after that.
Elitism - this in Wikipeedonit is informative. I'm careful about Wikipedia, but this addresses some aspects of what's being discussed here I think.
Dunno if I've ever chimed in on the Gnostic/Wayfer comparison before but I'd agree that the Way Nash wasn't gnostic, looking at the major streams of thought in gnostic beliefs and traditions.
Thinking one is better than another and more capable of (x whatever) appears to be an aspect of human development. One can very well be better than another in any number of considerations - more knowledgable, more experienced, more influential, more this or that. How that plays out - whole different topic.
God Himself describes His ways as "higher" than ours. God's reluctance to have a name, a place to put "Him" when referred to demonstrates that I think. Creator, Father, Just - these describe different aspects of how we might view God as ultimate authority but only describe in part.
Jesus described the Kingdom of God where many who are first will be last, and vice versa. He describes the greatest as being the servant of all - in effect lesser by certain standards but greater by others.
Modern society loves to reward and recognize "success stories" where someone works their way....up...from the bottom. In many societies past that wasn't possible to do regardless of the service you provided, as those who recognized it didn't, wouldn't or couldn't elevate that person "higher". So...if we think about it the dynamics involved in the processes of the "Kingdom of God" and that arena are very different than what we see in life if we distinguish ourselves without the recognition of others. And if that's reflected in this life, it requires a different way of actually hmmm, seeing stuff.
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