Well, my experience has been that my answer to that is probably yes they do. This calls to my remembrance back in 1978 when the Jim Jones tragedy happened and all those people died. First of all, we didn't know anything about it because we didn't read papers, listen to the news. I was a wow at the time. And we got this tape that VP put out telling about the incident and telling what was "behind" the scenes. And basically, if I remember accurately, he said that this was an attack on TWI....that it brought to the forefront what people would of considered cults and the attack was on TWI cause that's what people considered TWI to be. Also, he said, if I am not mistaken that the government did it.
I JUST saw an interview a few weeks ago with Jim Jones, Jr. on TV. He told the real story of all how it all happened. His father believed that there would be an attack on his following because a gov. official had visited the compound and he was afraid of what would happen. He ordered the people to "drink the kool aid". Children first because he knew then that the parents after seeing their children start to die would not want to live themselves. Jim Jones Jr. was away at the time but his father called and told him to commit suicide in any way he could. He didn't follow his father's directions. And what was REALLY interesting is that Jim Jones Jr could not really confess his anger at his father for doing what he did. He said well, I have to say that my father tried to change the world....he tried.
Didn't mean to get off on Jim Jones....but very similar. They too felt that they were being targeted.
I think TWI was the at the center of every attack in the world....it always seemed to really come back to the fact that people were attacking TWI.
I was never Corps so this is only Hear say....that they were taught how to die. Like I said, it's just something I heard but don't know.
I do know that they were ready at any given signal to go "underground". Had food ready, maps, etc ready to leave at any sign of attack. I know this is true because someone called me who was in the corps and said, if I call you be ready in a minutes notice to pack and me a group of us where we tell you to meet us. Not your average fellowship call I'd say.
Paronoid? Definitely.....We were so important the world was always at our door trying to attack us and destroy TWI
I was never Corps so this is only Hear say....that they were taught how to die. Like I said, it's just something I heard but don't know.
I do know that they were ready at any given signal to go "underground". Had food ready, maps, etc ready to leave at any sign of attack. I know this is true because someone called me who was in the corps and said, if I call you be ready in a minutes notice to pack and me a group of us where we tell you to meet us. Not your average fellowship call I'd say.
Paronoid? Definitely.....We were so important the world was always at our door trying to attack us and destroy TWI
I speak this from experience of knowing VPW personally in the early 1970s until he died - in my opinion he was a paranoid sociopath, but I'm not a psychiatrist.
To address the items above:
I was in the 2nd Corps and NEVER was "taught how to die." In the Advanced Class, VP taught that suicide was caused by devil possession.
In Feb. 1976 VP held a meeting in Emporia for all Corps when he thought the USA was on the brink of takeover by the Communists or some such conspiracy. At that time he did encourage everyone to, as you say, "go underground" if needed at the drop of a hat. How this would actually play out was up to each of us...we just had to head for the hills, grow our own food, etc. It was frightening to hear VP talk about this. I believe this episode is covered in the book, The Cult That Snapped, by Karl Khaler.
Because sociopaths feel the world revolves around them, everything negative in the world was either a direct or indirect attack on TWI because VP said he was the only one teaching the "accuracy of The Word." It was The Word the devil was out to destroy. Make no mistake, this thinking is still rampant among former TWI followers who still cling to VP and his "Word" dogmas.
I speak this from experience of knowing VPW personally in the early 1970s until he died - in my opinion he was a paranoid sociopath, but I'm not a psychiatrist.
<snip>
Because sociopaths feel the world revolves around them, everything negative in the world was either a direct or indirect attack on TWI because VP said he was the only one teaching the "accuracy of The Word." It was The Word the devil was out to destroy. Make no mistake, this thinking is still rampant among former TWI followers who still cling to VP and his "Word" dogmas.
penworks......you nailed it.
Just seems like wierwille was a narcisstic sociopath his entire adult life. Even in earliest recollections when he said to his New Knoxville Church minister...."I want to be a man of God like you, sir." What he was really saying was...."I want to stand in front of hundreds of people and be revered like you."
And, the BG Leonard class "The Gifts of the Spirit" was when his light bulb went off. Wierwille saw this class-structured ministry as different, authoritarian and dominant to be revered as The Teacher. And from there, the teacher and his work were exhalted in legendary library of everlasting life.
Move over, Jesus..........there's a new sheriff in town.
Move over, Jesus..........there's a new sheriff in town.
Well of course, according to the way international he is "the absent Christ!" How does the little cliche go? "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ!"
When someone exits the corps for family reasons........is that spiritual in nature?
When a corps grad has growing interests in business.....is that a spiritual cop-out?
When an elderly staff person has health issues.........is that a spiritual attack?
Yep, that's about the size of it.
I knew a region leader who was driving on a mountain pass in Colorado in the wintertime on his way to Gunnison. He was convinced the snowstorm was the adversary trying to off him because he was the man of God for our region. I know he was--he told me so!
And the rainstorms during the Rock of Ages were always of the devil. I guess God was supposed to bless all the farmers with rain but at the same time cause a perfect spot of sunshine above us tent-dwellers.
And the rainstorms during the Rock of Ages were always of the devil. I guess God was supposed to bless all the farmers with rain but at the same time cause a perfect spot of sunshine above us tent-dwellers.
I think it was at the ROA 1977 that VP accused the Corps of being "off the Word" in some vague way and causing the bad weather we had that year. He said we'd let the adversary get a foothold and spiritually we were responsible for the nasty muddy grounds. This was at the Sidney fairgrounds. Anyone else remember that ROA?
I knew a region leader who was driving on a mountain pass in Colorado in the wintertime on his way to Gunnison. He was convinced the snowstorm was the adversary trying to off him because he was the man of God for our region. I know he was--he told me so!
And the rainstorms during the Rock of Ages were always of the devil. I guess God was supposed to bless all the farmers with rain but at the same time cause a perfect spot of sunshine above us tent-dwellers.
Snowstorms seem to be "of God" or "from the devil" with The Way Ministry. Wierwille welcomed them when he, supposedly, was praying for a sign {how does that work? I thought a believer was 'off the word' to pray for signs?). Yet, this region coordinator was convinced the snowstorm was from the adversary...???
Rainstorms.....same deal. The nearby farmers welcomed them "of God" and yet, wierwille or martindale was shaking his fist at the corps for allowing the devil entrance into the event.
Could it be.......snowstorms and rainstorms need NOT interfere with the mog's scripted schedule to be deemed A BLESSING OR A CURSE? If these storms obstruct and interfere..... of course, the devil is attacking this narcisstic sociopath mog's intentions. He is the ruler of the universe......weather or not ( ) you think its so.
ALL opposition to twi is spiritual in nature. Is that true? Of course not, but twi propaganda has used this tactic for decades to energize and mobilize the youth.
I was never Corps so this is only Hear say....that they were taught how to die. Like I said, it's just something I heard but don't know.
I heard the same, post ADV class, during apprentice year. because nothing is more important than the word, when society hit the sh!t can (which was barely being held at bay by the believing of a few faithful men) a truly committed believer will "give up the ghost" like what's his face in Acts before betraying god, which actually meant giving up the location of any "believers" hiding out in militia compounds.
not suicide, just deciding to let others take your life to protect the "the ministry".
I don't remember any teachings on how to die. What I do remember, though, are teachings that provided information on the siege of Masada. Maybe we were supposed to read between the lines.
They actually sold us sea sponges when I was in residence. I didn't like rinsing it out in the bathroom sink. It was embarrassing.
MAL packs were also mandated in the fall of 1979 when another supposed disaster was looming. We had to break up into groups that would flee together. Then after meetings with our group we would go on with our regular in residence training, and we were not to speak of it until it was time again to break into our little groups.
What I never got was how we were safer fleeing from Emporia. If it was chaos everywhere why would we be safer? And we were supposed to always have a full tank of gas in the car we would be taking off in. What was supposed to happen when the gas ran out?
Then it never happened but that was because we saved the country with our prayers.
We didn't have MAL Packs in Fellow Laborers. We did, however, have an emergency work session one evening in 1975 that involved destroying all the metal mimeograph plates for the state newsletter. Wouldn't want "them" getting a list of members, now would you? We also built an ill fated, survival styled root cellar in the side of the hill adjacent to the Limb BRC.
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newlife
Well, my experience has been that my answer to that is probably yes they do. This calls to my remembrance back in 1978 when the Jim Jones tragedy happened and all those people died. First of all, we didn't know anything about it because we didn't read papers, listen to the news. I was a wow at the time. And we got this tape that VP put out telling about the incident and telling what was "behind" the scenes. And basically, if I remember accurately, he said that this was an attack on TWI....that it brought to the forefront what people would of considered cults and the attack was on TWI cause that's what people considered TWI to be. Also, he said, if I am not mistaken that the government did it.
I JUST saw an interview a few weeks ago with Jim Jones, Jr. on TV. He told the real story of all how it all happened. His father believed that there would be an attack on his following because a gov. official had visited the compound and he was afraid of what would happen. He ordered the people to "drink the kool aid". Children first because he knew then that the parents after seeing their children start to die would not want to live themselves. Jim Jones Jr. was away at the time but his father called and told him to commit suicide in any way he could. He didn't follow his father's directions. And what was REALLY interesting is that Jim Jones Jr could not really confess his anger at his father for doing what he did. He said well, I have to say that my father tried to change the world....he tried.
Didn't mean to get off on Jim Jones....but very similar. They too felt that they were being targeted.
I think TWI was the at the center of every attack in the world....it always seemed to really come back to the fact that people were attacking TWI.
I was never Corps so this is only Hear say....that they were taught how to die. Like I said, it's just something I heard but don't know.
I do know that they were ready at any given signal to go "underground". Had food ready, maps, etc ready to leave at any sign of attack. I know this is true because someone called me who was in the corps and said, if I call you be ready in a minutes notice to pack and me a group of us where we tell you to meet us. Not your average fellowship call I'd say.
Paronoid? Definitely.....We were so important the world was always at our door trying to attack us and destroy TWI
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penworks
I speak this from experience of knowing VPW personally in the early 1970s until he died - in my opinion he was a paranoid sociopath, but I'm not a psychiatrist.
To address the items above:
I was in the 2nd Corps and NEVER was "taught how to die." In the Advanced Class, VP taught that suicide was caused by devil possession.
In Feb. 1976 VP held a meeting in Emporia for all Corps when he thought the USA was on the brink of takeover by the Communists or some such conspiracy. At that time he did encourage everyone to, as you say, "go underground" if needed at the drop of a hat. How this would actually play out was up to each of us...we just had to head for the hills, grow our own food, etc. It was frightening to hear VP talk about this. I believe this episode is covered in the book, The Cult That Snapped, by Karl Khaler.
Because sociopaths feel the world revolves around them, everything negative in the world was either a direct or indirect attack on TWI because VP said he was the only one teaching the "accuracy of The Word." It was The Word the devil was out to destroy. Make no mistake, this thinking is still rampant among former TWI followers who still cling to VP and his "Word" dogmas.
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skyrider
penworks......you nailed it.
Just seems like wierwille was a narcisstic sociopath his entire adult life. Even in earliest recollections when he said to his New Knoxville Church minister...."I want to be a man of God like you, sir." What he was really saying was...."I want to stand in front of hundreds of people and be revered like you."
And, the BG Leonard class "The Gifts of the Spirit" was when his light bulb went off. Wierwille saw this class-structured ministry as different, authoritarian and dominant to be revered as The Teacher. And from there, the teacher and his work were exhalted in legendary library of everlasting life.
Move over, Jesus..........there's a new sheriff in town.
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OldSkool
Well of course, according to the way international he is "the absent Christ!" How does the little cliche go? "The Word takes the place of the absent Christ!"
:excl:
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What About It
Yep, that's about the size of it.
I knew a region leader who was driving on a mountain pass in Colorado in the wintertime on his way to Gunnison. He was convinced the snowstorm was the adversary trying to off him because he was the man of God for our region. I know he was--he told me so!
And the rainstorms during the Rock of Ages were always of the devil. I guess God was supposed to bless all the farmers with rain but at the same time cause a perfect spot of sunshine above us tent-dwellers.
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penworks
I think it was at the ROA 1977 that VP accused the Corps of being "off the Word" in some vague way and causing the bad weather we had that year. He said we'd let the adversary get a foothold and spiritually we were responsible for the nasty muddy grounds. This was at the Sidney fairgrounds. Anyone else remember that ROA?
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excathedra
i remember that ROA, pen. it was my fault. so was wierwille's death i believe my fault -- according to another psycho bithc parageernoid
i also went through the mal pack crapola (including silk sea sponges yuck)
i remembe calling a dear friend from a pay phone at emporia and telling her we might be there soon but i couldn't tell her why. shelived in theboonies
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skyrider
Snowstorms seem to be "of God" or "from the devil" with The Way Ministry. Wierwille welcomed them when he, supposedly, was praying for a sign {how does that work? I thought a believer was 'off the word' to pray for signs?). Yet, this region coordinator was convinced the snowstorm was from the adversary...???
Rainstorms.....same deal. The nearby farmers welcomed them "of God" and yet, wierwille or martindale was shaking his fist at the corps for allowing the devil entrance into the event.
Could it be.......snowstorms and rainstorms need NOT interfere with the mog's scripted schedule to be deemed A BLESSING OR A CURSE? If these storms obstruct and interfere..... of course, the devil is attacking this narcisstic sociopath mog's intentions. He is the ruler of the universe......weather or not (
) you think its so.
C'mon peeeple.......it sits there like a diamond.
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waysider
"It just sits there like a duck!"
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Ham
their offspring have chosen the same tactics..
including distant cousins.. I've met them..
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Oakspear
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What About It
Excie, what's the mal pack crapola? and silk sea sponges?
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Broken Arrow
MAL stands for (get this) "Mobile Abundant Life". I'll let Excie explain the silk sea sponges.
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What About It
um...just Googled it...nevermind.
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Bolshevik
one leg is both the same . . . no wait . . .
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potato
I heard the same, post ADV class, during apprentice year. because nothing is more important than the word, when society hit the sh!t can (which was barely being held at bay by the believing of a few faithful men) a truly committed believer will "give up the ghost" like what's his face in Acts before betraying god, which actually meant giving up the location of any "believers" hiding out in militia compounds.
not suicide, just deciding to let others take your life to protect the "the ministry".
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waysider
I don't remember any teachings on how to die. What I do remember, though, are teachings that provided information on the siege of Masada. Maybe we were supposed to read between the lines.
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WordWolf
If I can back this up a little, to give the context....
vpw was fond of the odd and bizarre, and that OFTEN meant lots of conspiracy theories.
I don't know if he fully believed them, or if he just used them as grist, but either way,
he passed them along. vpw had a number of information links to "the Liberty Lobby"-
he subscribed to their magazine, and he listened to their phone "hotline" a lot, in secret.
(Remember, this was before the internet- so phone, television, radio, and mail communication
were the most efficient ways to pass along what you considered "news.") So, vpw would go
away, then come back, and announce some conspiracy was afoot, and only the combined prayers
of the twi'ers could prevent disaster. Once someone commented about the San Andreas Fault
not having had any catastrophic earthquakes of late. vpm replied that he should remove all
the twi people from the area of the fault and THEN see what happened.
The Mother Lode of the twi conspiracies under vpw was 1976 and the attempted takeover of the USA
by subversive elements.
(The Mother Lode of the twi conspiracies under lcm was the Y2K panic, and the complete breakdown
of both technology and society when the machines stopped working, but that's another subject.)
So, getting back to the MAL packs....
twi'ers at some levels were instructed to put together their MAL packs before the 1976 USA
takeover took place, so they had vital supplies on hand so they could flee for their lives with
what they needed. Among the supplies was those "sea sponges", supposedly a usable substitute
for one of the supplies women would be unable to buy in pharmacies while running for their
lives or hiding from the thought police or whatever other fool thing they were supposed to be
doing at the time.
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outandabout
They actually sold us sea sponges when I was in residence. I didn't like rinsing it out in the bathroom sink. It was embarrassing.
MAL packs were also mandated in the fall of 1979 when another supposed disaster was looming. We had to break up into groups that would flee together. Then after meetings with our group we would go on with our regular in residence training, and we were not to speak of it until it was time again to break into our little groups.
What I never got was how we were safer fleeing from Emporia. If it was chaos everywhere why would we be safer? And we were supposed to always have a full tank of gas in the car we would be taking off in. What was supposed to happen when the gas ran out?
Then it never happened but that was because we saved the country with our prayers.
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waysider
We didn't have MAL Packs in Fellow Laborers. We did, however, have an emergency work session one evening in 1975 that involved destroying all the metal mimeograph plates for the state newsletter. Wouldn't want "them" getting a list of members, now would you? We also built an ill fated, survival styled root cellar in the side of the hill adjacent to the Limb BRC.
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chockfull
Oh dear precious baby Jesus on a pogo stick.
The Way - they can save the country, they just can't save themselves.
How preposterous.
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OldSkool
Craig pulled the same line when Y2K never materialized.
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waysider
Wouldn't that make a great bumper sticker?
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