I could go on and on...but really, has anybody met the invisable Jesus?
No, and for years I beat myself up over that one.
As I have gone back and read over what Jesus said and did, the more I think that he was brilliant - and what many of us would commonly think of as a lunatic. Do I think that he's invisible? Not really. The more I apply logic to the whole thing, the more it falls apart for me.
If you can keep logic, mathematical precision, and fitting like a hand in a glove out of the whole thing, it becomes doable (for me, anyway).
I'm not trolling as you all say, but rather disillusioned with "religion" now. I am asking for concrete evidence when there is none available. It was a bad decision to post this question and would seriously like to delete it.
IMO, Christianity is all about a personal individual relationship. I believe that is God's design. As such, it is not empirically provable.
Newtonian physics is a science that describes certain aspects of the world around us. It is empirically provable.
I can totally relate to you with being disillusioned with "religion", as can most on this site. The problem with "religion" is IMO that it takes something that is designed to be a personal individual relationship, like Christianity, and inserts mankind into it. When that happens, there can be great things which you see with the better side of humanity, like people being kind, charitable, helping one another. However, more likely than not, you see the dark side of humanity involved with "religion", people judging one another, politics, posturing, slander, evil, stealing, murder, etc.
The question to me is do you allow the dark side of humanity to affect your personal relationship? Some do. I don't. But it's a personal choice, and not one I believe makes anyone better than anyone else. I don't judge where people choose to get their inspiration.
Hello all and happygay! It's been many a moon since I entered these hello'd portals. Got a heads up on this topic and a reference to something I'd posted at some point in the dim, distant past (who can remember this stuff?) and I wanted to contribute to the topic, happygay, albeit off the top of my head (boink).
True to form and upon re-read I can see that the following incredibly enlightening blather is long, so long that it's probably best taken in small doses and with a bib installed for any sleep induced drool. As always, my best to all, keep a stiff upper lip, and without exception if anyone is blessed and improved by these words don't hesitate to forward your Love Offerings and Tithes directly to me so that I, socks, can continue this great work I do and remember we like love that swishes not clinks so hold the coins. That addie again: E-ChurchofTheBigLoveforSocks@payyourdebt-here.com
A few thoughts to level-set: "evidence" of past events could be said to be based on 3 things - recall/memory, artifacts, and analysis/comparison. What's remembered, any observable results and examination of both.
The essence of any "past" event is gone and unretrievable, the actual event can't happen "again" in it's original state. We perceive in the current moment. Memory and anticipation form our views of what we call past and future and our functional consciousness could be described as the combination of 3 perceptions - the past, now and the future.
Still, we only exist in the moment but if we step back for a sec and look at it we see that "now" is a point in a continuous strip and only separated from the whole when we impose a specific kind of view or measurement - we experience consciousness "in" the strip, so this isn't a difficult way to view "life" There are no inherent separations in the states as they occur and we are aware of all 3 states at all times.
Along with that I think it's important to fold in the fundamental fact that each of "us" is a unique instance of consciousness. You aren't me for some very basic reasons and although we might view the whole of existence as some kind of big "oneness", the basic unit of measurement for consciousness is one - "me".
Knowing that is obvious I know (little humor there) and is debatable since there's a lot we don't know yet but for practical purposes it's how we experience reality - each one their own, beacause it's the only experience we can each have.
As a result we can only accumulate instances of experience "one" at a time, we can't retrieve them in their original form although we can remember them and we can anticipate more because we've learned that our current experience will continue, until it doesn't anymore if that's in fact what happens (something we haven't experienced and as a result can't remember so we can't fully examine, although we might anticipate it based on what we observe and experience).
So having said that - "validation" is an interesting term and concept. I can communicate to you what mine is. The sun came up this morning. We both probably saw that, we both would likely agree on it and we'd both probably agree that tomorrow it will again. Not because we have the "same" experience but because we both experienced the same thing, individually.
As to Christianity, God, Jesus Christ - if there are the points of experience we want to discuss, I could describe "mine" to you but they won't be yours and in fact can't be so the value is a measured one. We both know there's a sun - we can see it.
You observed that God is "invisible" although I wouldn't agree on that as a good term for the relationship between God's state and our physical state but I understand what you mean I think.
Jesus described "spirit" (and also noted that God is spirit) as like the wind, where no one knows where it comes from or goes but we know it's there. The effects, the artifacts of wind are known and can be gathered but (in the metaphor) we only see the results, not the "wind" itself. (although dust and rain and the like, well, it's a metaphor, or something...) "
So then is everyone "born of the spirit" said Jesus and that's where we are I think in relation to God and our overall awareness of God both internally and externally. (yet we do have information and the gathered testimony of those in the past - on the simplest level this is why people read the Bible or books that speak to "spiritual" matters to have ways to learn from the collected experience and observations and "revelations" of others).
The question can be asked "why doesn't God do this or that, or put up a billboard in the sky reading "Here I am" or make things different than they are so it would "easier" to understand and know Him. Given what we know and seem to know or at the least can guess at - I think we're better served to accept the way existence is and look into it to find "the truth". For the whole history of man as we know and from the evidence we can see and examine this appears to be the way it was, is and will be for the foreseeable future. Maybe not, but it's reasonable to assume our universe won't change much - until it does and if it does we'll know that, then).
I believe that which is true will reveal and render itself to us from all angles and perspectives, if we simply look and persist.
We often look into the past and wonder "why" and "how", examining the events that have occurred. We conclude and learn. The trick is to remember (LOL - I'm killin' myself here!) that "new" experience is right here and now and to not limit ourselves solely to what's remembered, nor to what we can anticipate (based on that) but also to what we learn now. This would be in line with what Jesus spoke of concerning the spirit - if it's moving, we might want to at least be aware of hmmm, what's "in the air" at any given time.
Where it all gets like, totally crazy man, is that at any time, any"one" can interact completely independently of any other instances of consciousness and have an impact on any and/or all others. At the base level, that's insanely bizarre, so potentially chaotic that - geez, it would be a wonder that anything continues or persists at all. Yet we do. Stuff does. There is order and design, if there wasn't there'd be no stable "now", no recall that could be formed consistently and no clear anticipation for what might come next. It's so basic that it's assumed, but if we were to be in a world where nothing was assumed that would be a fascinating realization, at least to me.
One view would be - yeah well, so that's true - total chaos, we just don't know it. But really that can't be true, because we have recall/memory that what we now experience has some comparison, relationship, to what's come before - we can see that, feel it, touch it. The consistency of our experience speaks for itself. Yet, here and there if not more we can, may see forces beyond our immediate awareness that are repetitive.
With God and Jesus Christ - the same applies, and only for each of us, individually, for ourselves. When it comes to validation I normally suggest "Go get some". I can't give you mine. I can try but it never works. It can't. It might make an impression or offer some enlightenment but it can never be "yours". Simply put, we all have to get our own.
i love what you said about we all have to get our own -- i believe that -- and also no one can take that away from you thank you god and jesus christ :)
I noticed that the GS adverts continue to present uncannily useful links at the bottom of each page - immediately after logging in and returning to this page I saw an ad for "Socks without elastic"...! Think of it - socks with no elastic. Can such things be? Apparently so, apparently so, for the Internet would never lie. Products and services that boggle the mind - they deserve my immediate attention, but first things first...
excandoodat! Yes, I firmly believe that - those things that we "own" are ours, whether learned and earned through the joys and tears of this life or accepted like gifts falling from the sky - once they land in our laps there's no turning back. Hold on to what you've got, it's yours. :)
Upon reflection I realize I haven't given a direct answer to the original question , for what it's worth the answer would be "Yes".
With God and Jesus Christ - the same applies, and only for each of us, individually, for ourselves. When it comes to validation I normally suggest "Go get some". I can't give you mine. I can try but it never works. It can't. It might make an impression or offer some enlightenment but it can never be "yours". Simply put, we all have to get our own.
welcome back, Mr. Socks.
I think that's the whole point, aptly illustrated here.. to those who experienced whatever "it" is, it makes perfect sense. Then to others, it may never make sense.. including my own beliefs. I've been told so at least on a couple of occasions.
I'd love to go to Valencia, just to try to figure out why they do it.. but there might not even be a "why"..
Interesting scene there. Perhaps when you have that much of whatever it is they're in (tomatoes?) you just have to dive in!
Amazing things continue to populate my page view - this just in, below: Infrared Therapy Socks.
Wow. Infrared.....therapy - in a sock! Science knows no bounds nor the imagination of those seeking to serve their fellow man. Such effort humbles the thankful user. And contextual - a breakfast casserole ad was right below it! Healing, delightful food - what next? Can it get any better? I'm sure it can, I'm sure it can.
The Cafe just isn't the same without you. The food isn't spiced quite right and the service is slower......but the pitchers of beer are on a steady stream.
That addie again: E-ChurchofTheBigLoveforSocks@payyourdebt-here.com
wwwwssssssttttt.....the sound of soft money coming your way.
Mssr. skyster, that is quite kind of you to say, thank you.
I'm not getting anymore ads. That's disappointing, so far all of the ads have proven to be worth every penny and I was looking forward to more. "They" just seem to know exactly what I need, even before I need it! And by the way, if you you haven't tried socks without elastic, all I can say is stop denying yourself. The difference is major.
i lost my post to the cable company and thunder storms i think
i was trying to say that i'm not a party pooper usually
but i wanted to let you know seriously how -- if it hadn't been for the love of jesus christ -- the grace and mercy of god -- i don't know if i would be able to be alive or go in life....
i lost my post to the cable company and thunder storms i think
i was trying to say that i'm not a party pooper usually
but i wanted to let you know seriously how -- if it hadn't been for the love of jesus christ -- the grace and mercy of god -- i don't know if i would be able to be alive or go in life....
that's just me
thanks
excie,
I know. I believe you. I've only experienced my own demons in TWI, not yours, but I too feel like the love of jesus christ led me out of egypt and the bondage of unreasonable men and women in twi.
I have a few of the posts. For those of you who may not know, accusing someone of being a troll IS a personal attack and IS a violation of the posting rules here.
Troll or non-Troll, this happygay brought up a really interesting topic and I'm glad that I, socks, have participated.
Although I don't have any data to support this contention, I get the feeling deep down in my gut that a lot of Christianity's religions - the diverse and abundant rituals, traditions and doctrines that have proliferated throughout history - don't really serve simple common sense "validation".
Belief is considered synonymous with "faith" which is kind of loosely defined as "believing in something because it's "right" with or without any direct personal investment or attachment between the believer and the Believ-ee". Often benign, sometimes destructive, that's the way I do think a lot of Christian religions run their shows.
It's as if to say "Look - up in the sky!!! It's a bird, no - it's a plane! No - it's...........well, it used to be Superman, and it would be if it he were actually flying, but LOOK! It's where we look when we want to think about looking at Superman!! Up there!!!!"
Some kind of a reality check may be in order, methinketh (KJV)
That's not say I'm not a believer and don't care about a Believ-ee. I do. Nor do I want to insist that others see what I see, have what I have, or do what i do. We'd all be happier if we would just do and see things my way, I agree :biglaugh: but I do understand the failings of humanity and the inability to set their standards that high, right out of the gate.
Seriously though - we don't all need to walk on water, if we can all be like the followers of Jesus were said to be when written about in the Gospels - shortly after Jesus was crucified, not a one of them - none - expected or thought He was anything but very dead. And they were sad, understandably. Then, completely outside of any expectation or "believing" or anything else by mankind, the impossible happened. Everyone was surprised, amazed, and incredibly changed by what would still be today an incredible first hand experience. They all went from "Doubting Thomas" to acceptance.
Why? Well, so the story goes - He was alive, they saw him, He engaged with them and continued with a new relationship with them.
That shouldn't be that unusual. How it occurs and how it manifests itself will be diverse, personal and wonderful, to each it's own and in each person in it's own way. Similar, but different and unique. Reliably consistent, in surprising ways. As later written - though we have known Christ in the flesh, now we know Him that way no longer.
There were many ways that Christ was viewed and validated even when He was alive and "in the flesh" - son of man, son of God, Lord, rabbi, prophet, teacher, liar, "devil". It's no surprise - it's very simply natural really - that the same would be true today. As a man or as resurrected Lord on the "right hand of God" He's been knowable from many differerent and diverse perspectives.
excali really makes a great point and one that requires no apology. It is what is and that's enough - when it is. :)
thanks chocks and socks (who came out of the drawer or dirty laundry basket for this thread :))
i'm happy that happygay started the thread too
i know jesus christ told me i could could come to him for rest when i was weary and had heavy burdens. i counted on him for that when i was like seven years old and would go by myself to the altar when they used leave empty cath. churches open.
That drawer beckons, exnack, warm and cozy. Perhaps it would be fitting to close with this, that the inner reality of knowing Christ is as real to me today as this keyboard, no less so for sure. I may be nuts, I may be wrong but I'm not alone in that, I know. (and I'm certain I'm not wrong but it always sounds good to leave that window cracked open a little despite the fact that if pressed back against the wall I'd be happy to go with that rather than denying it).
The real question might be "Does Christ know me?"
Long ago, reading the Gospels it struck me how accepting Christ was of those who came to Him. Messy, messed up, life in disarray or wrapped tight and ready to go, His followers, well, followed Him. He's painted as a man who knew His audience even when they declared allegiance to the death, knowing perhaps that in the end they'd be exactly who and what they were - human, imperfect, trying with every breath at times, dying with every breath at others. So He was there for them, stolid and solid in His understanding of exactly who He Himself was and deeply aware that no one else was going to be that Man, that One, but Him. So He remained true to that to the end, and beyond.
His followers changed, according to the records, once they too understood. Yet, even a man dead and risen again wouldn't validate the claim "son of God", "Savior", "Lord". Their lives were lit by an understanding that went even beyond that, that in His presence was the image of God, the Son making visible to all the Father.
This reality is made known I believe in the lives and hearts of people even today. The intangible made coherent to our perception. It is in fact when we "see" that in others we see that Christ who declares His Father. It's like going Home when the planets align, so to speak, and they do, all the time, all the time.
What I realized then was how great His "Love" really was and - dare I think it - "is". His followers weren't denied for what they'd done wrong nor for their lack of faith or trust in Him, rather they were accepted because they were there, present and accounted for, stupid or smart, right or wrong but finally and ultimately saying "I believe". They had no other choice.
Once I stopped worrying about how impossible it was and realized how possible it was, It struck me that if He'd loved and stood by those people all those years ago, He could love even me. And I've been Home ever since. In a very real way love saved me and showed me the Way.
I'd invite anyone who hasn't for whatever reasons to give it a shot. Read the Gospels and the Epistles for what their stories tell. Speak to others who follow Christ and have accepted Him as the son of God and the Way, the Truth and the Life. Realize the simplicity in the fact that none of us can be anyone else but ourselves and that by being that and only that we are exactly who God would have us to be. Give Christ a try. It won't do you no harm and it can only help.
i really really wish i could post a song by joyful noise about open your heart and give christ a try, he's in love with you, he arose to set you on high
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Ham
It's not really all that bad. I've lost the need to have any kind of certainty in this life.. the consequence of half-baked religious answers seems worse than just enjoying the questions..
socks
Troll or non-Troll, this happygay brought up a really interesting topic and I'm glad that I, socks, have participated. Although I don't have any data to support this contention, I get the feeling de
Linda Z
This sign I saw at a church might help: "Honk if you love Jesus. Text while driving if you want to meet him." Seriously, I won't argue the existence of a living Christ. I've had all the proof I ne
dmiller
Congrats for getting out, HappyGay.
I was in for 10 years, and can't imagine (now) being there for 25 years. Now that I think about it, it's been 25 years (thereabouts) since I got out.
You sound like some other folks I know of on the Ex-Jehovah Witness boards. Proof. Proof. Give me Proof! Few there "believe" anymore.
I used to try to explain why I still believe to them, but have given up. A guy (or a gal) needs to find their own path. Carpe Diem.
Asking anyone to "prove" Jesus or God is real, is like buying a lottery ticket. You have a 1 in 5,687,000 million chance of getting an answer.
It's like that Harley Davidson bumper sticker you see on trucks/ cars that says: "If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand".
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Tzaia
No, and for years I beat myself up over that one.
As I have gone back and read over what Jesus said and did, the more I think that he was brilliant - and what many of us would commonly think of as a lunatic. Do I think that he's invisible? Not really. The more I apply logic to the whole thing, the more it falls apart for me.
If you can keep logic, mathematical precision, and fitting like a hand in a glove out of the whole thing, it becomes doable (for me, anyway).
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Ham
I think that is the whole point here..
maybe that's what makes this so attractive to me.. there is absolutely NO LOGIC involved in this:
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Bolshevik
I dunno Mr. Ham . . . that's the most logical thing I've seen in awhile . . . Why? . . . Why not?
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chockfull
IMO, Christianity is all about a personal individual relationship. I believe that is God's design. As such, it is not empirically provable.
Newtonian physics is a science that describes certain aspects of the world around us. It is empirically provable.
I can totally relate to you with being disillusioned with "religion", as can most on this site. The problem with "religion" is IMO that it takes something that is designed to be a personal individual relationship, like Christianity, and inserts mankind into it. When that happens, there can be great things which you see with the better side of humanity, like people being kind, charitable, helping one another. However, more likely than not, you see the dark side of humanity involved with "religion", people judging one another, politics, posturing, slander, evil, stealing, murder, etc.
The question to me is do you allow the dark side of humanity to affect your personal relationship? Some do. I don't. But it's a personal choice, and not one I believe makes anyone better than anyone else. I don't judge where people choose to get their inspiration.
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socks
Hello all and happygay! It's been many a moon since I entered these hello'd portals. Got a heads up on this topic and a reference to something I'd posted at some point in the dim, distant past (who can remember this stuff?) and I wanted to contribute to the topic, happygay, albeit off the top of my head (boink).
True to form and upon re-read I can see that the following incredibly enlightening blather is long, so long that it's probably best taken in small doses and with a bib installed for any sleep induced drool. As always, my best to all, keep a stiff upper lip, and without exception if anyone is blessed and improved by these words don't hesitate to forward your Love Offerings and Tithes directly to me so that I, socks, can continue this great work I do and remember we like love that swishes not clinks so hold the coins. That addie again: E-ChurchofTheBigLoveforSocks@payyourdebt-here.com
A few thoughts to level-set: "evidence" of past events could be said to be based on 3 things - recall/memory, artifacts, and analysis/comparison. What's remembered, any observable results and examination of both.
The essence of any "past" event is gone and unretrievable, the actual event can't happen "again" in it's original state. We perceive in the current moment. Memory and anticipation form our views of what we call past and future and our functional consciousness could be described as the combination of 3 perceptions - the past, now and the future.
Still, we only exist in the moment but if we step back for a sec and look at it we see that "now" is a point in a continuous strip and only separated from the whole when we impose a specific kind of view or measurement - we experience consciousness "in" the strip, so this isn't a difficult way to view "life" There are no inherent separations in the states as they occur and we are aware of all 3 states at all times.
Along with that I think it's important to fold in the fundamental fact that each of "us" is a unique instance of consciousness. You aren't me for some very basic reasons and although we might view the whole of existence as some kind of big "oneness", the basic unit of measurement for consciousness is one - "me".
Knowing that is obvious I know (little humor there) and is debatable since there's a lot we don't know yet but for practical purposes it's how we experience reality - each one their own, beacause it's the only experience we can each have.
As a result we can only accumulate instances of experience "one" at a time, we can't retrieve them in their original form although we can remember them and we can anticipate more because we've learned that our current experience will continue, until it doesn't anymore if that's in fact what happens (something we haven't experienced and as a result can't remember so we can't fully examine, although we might anticipate it based on what we observe and experience).
So having said that - "validation" is an interesting term and concept. I can communicate to you what mine is. The sun came up this morning. We both probably saw that, we both would likely agree on it and we'd both probably agree that tomorrow it will again. Not because we have the "same" experience but because we both experienced the same thing, individually.
As to Christianity, God, Jesus Christ - if there are the points of experience we want to discuss, I could describe "mine" to you but they won't be yours and in fact can't be so the value is a measured one. We both know there's a sun - we can see it.
You observed that God is "invisible" although I wouldn't agree on that as a good term for the relationship between God's state and our physical state but I understand what you mean I think.
Jesus described "spirit" (and also noted that God is spirit) as like the wind, where no one knows where it comes from or goes but we know it's there. The effects, the artifacts of wind are known and can be gathered but (in the metaphor) we only see the results, not the "wind" itself. (although dust and rain and the like, well, it's a metaphor, or something...) "
So then is everyone "born of the spirit" said Jesus and that's where we are I think in relation to God and our overall awareness of God both internally and externally. (yet we do have information and the gathered testimony of those in the past - on the simplest level this is why people read the Bible or books that speak to "spiritual" matters to have ways to learn from the collected experience and observations and "revelations" of others).
The question can be asked "why doesn't God do this or that, or put up a billboard in the sky reading "Here I am" or make things different than they are so it would "easier" to understand and know Him. Given what we know and seem to know or at the least can guess at - I think we're better served to accept the way existence is and look into it to find "the truth". For the whole history of man as we know and from the evidence we can see and examine this appears to be the way it was, is and will be for the foreseeable future. Maybe not, but it's reasonable to assume our universe won't change much - until it does and if it does we'll know that, then).
I believe that which is true will reveal and render itself to us from all angles and perspectives, if we simply look and persist.
We often look into the past and wonder "why" and "how", examining the events that have occurred. We conclude and learn. The trick is to remember (LOL - I'm killin' myself here!) that "new" experience is right here and now and to not limit ourselves solely to what's remembered, nor to what we can anticipate (based on that) but also to what we learn now. This would be in line with what Jesus spoke of concerning the spirit - if it's moving, we might want to at least be aware of hmmm, what's "in the air" at any given time.
Where it all gets like, totally crazy man, is that at any time, any"one" can interact completely independently of any other instances of consciousness and have an impact on any and/or all others. At the base level, that's insanely bizarre, so potentially chaotic that - geez, it would be a wonder that anything continues or persists at all. Yet we do. Stuff does. There is order and design, if there wasn't there'd be no stable "now", no recall that could be formed consistently and no clear anticipation for what might come next. It's so basic that it's assumed, but if we were to be in a world where nothing was assumed that would be a fascinating realization, at least to me.
One view would be - yeah well, so that's true - total chaos, we just don't know it. But really that can't be true, because we have recall/memory that what we now experience has some comparison, relationship, to what's come before - we can see that, feel it, touch it. The consistency of our experience speaks for itself. Yet, here and there if not more we can, may see forces beyond our immediate awareness that are repetitive.
With God and Jesus Christ - the same applies, and only for each of us, individually, for ourselves. When it comes to validation I normally suggest "Go get some". I can't give you mine. I can try but it never works. It can't. It might make an impression or offer some enlightenment but it can never be "yours". Simply put, we all have to get our own.
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excathedra
dear socks i'm so happy to see you
i love what you said about we all have to get our own -- i believe that -- and also no one can take that away from you thank you god and jesus christ :)
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Sunesis
Great to see you again Socks!!!!
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socks
Happy seeing you Sunesis!
I noticed that the GS adverts continue to present uncannily useful links at the bottom of each page - immediately after logging in and returning to this page I saw an ad for "Socks without elastic"...! Think of it - socks with no elastic. Can such things be? Apparently so, apparently so, for the Internet would never lie. Products and services that boggle the mind - they deserve my immediate attention, but first things first...
excandoodat! Yes, I firmly believe that - those things that we "own" are ours, whether learned and earned through the joys and tears of this life or accepted like gifts falling from the sky - once they land in our laps there's no turning back. Hold on to what you've got, it's yours. :)
Upon reflection I realize I haven't given a direct answer to the original question
, for what it's worth the answer would be "Yes".
Elastic socks - this changes everything.
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Ham
welcome back, Mr. Socks.
I think that's the whole point, aptly illustrated here.. to those who experienced whatever "it" is, it makes perfect sense. Then to others, it may never make sense.. including my own beliefs. I've been told so at least on a couple of occasions.
I'd love to go to Valencia, just to try to figure out why they do it.. but there might not even be a "why"..
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socks
Thank you, Mr. Ham!
Interesting scene there. Perhaps when you have that much of whatever it is they're in (tomatoes?) you just have to dive in!
Amazing things continue to populate my page view - this just in, below: Infrared Therapy Socks.
Wow. Infrared.....therapy - in a sock! Science knows no bounds nor the imagination of those seeking to serve their fellow man. Such effort humbles the thankful user. And contextual - a breakfast casserole ad was right below it! Healing, delightful food - what next? Can it get any better? I'm sure it can, I'm sure it can.
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skyrider
Socks-meister........good to see you.
The Cafe just isn't the same without you. The food isn't spiced quite right and the service is slower......but the pitchers of beer are on a steady stream.
wwwwssssssttttt.....the sound of soft money coming your way.
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socks
Mssr. skyster, that is quite kind of you to say, thank you.
I'm not getting anymore ads. That's disappointing, so far all of the ads have proven to be worth every penny and I was looking forward to more. "They" just seem to know exactly what I need, even before I need it! And by the way, if you you haven't tried socks without elastic, all I can say is stop denying yourself. The difference is major.
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chockfull
Socks!!!!! What's up my eloquent friend?
I must get me some of those socks without elastic. Without them my life is incomplete.
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excathedra
i lost my post to the cable company and thunder storms i think
i was trying to say that i'm not a party pooper usually
but i wanted to let you know seriously how -- if it hadn't been for the love of jesus christ -- the grace and mercy of god -- i don't know if i would be able to be alive or go in life....
that's just me
thanks
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chockfull
excie,
I know. I believe you. I've only experienced my own demons in TWI, not yours, but I too feel like the love of jesus christ led me out of egypt and the bondage of unreasonable men and women in twi.
In spite of the detour down google ads lane.
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modbaker
I have a few of the posts. For those of you who may not know, accusing someone of being a troll IS a personal attack and IS a violation of the posting rules here.
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socks
Greets Chockful - don't fear the googleads, they're there for a purpose.
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socks
Troll or non-Troll, this happygay brought up a really interesting topic and I'm glad that I, socks, have participated.
Although I don't have any data to support this contention, I get the feeling deep down in my gut that a lot of Christianity's religions - the diverse and abundant rituals, traditions and doctrines that have proliferated throughout history - don't really serve simple common sense "validation".
Belief is considered synonymous with "faith" which is kind of loosely defined as "believing in something because it's "right" with or without any direct personal investment or attachment between the believer and the Believ-ee". Often benign, sometimes destructive, that's the way I do think a lot of Christian religions run their shows.
It's as if to say "Look - up in the sky!!! It's a bird, no - it's a plane! No - it's...........well, it used to be Superman, and it would be if it he were actually flying, but LOOK! It's where we look when we want to think about looking at Superman!! Up there!!!!"
Some kind of a reality check may be in order, methinketh (KJV)
That's not say I'm not a believer and don't care about a Believ-ee. I do. Nor do I want to insist that others see what I see, have what I have, or do what i do. We'd all be happier if we would just do and see things my way, I agree
:biglaugh: but I do understand the failings of humanity and the inability to set their standards that high, right out of the gate.
Seriously though - we don't all need to walk on water, if we can all be like the followers of Jesus were said to be when written about in the Gospels - shortly after Jesus was crucified, not a one of them - none - expected or thought He was anything but very dead. And they were sad, understandably. Then, completely outside of any expectation or "believing" or anything else by mankind, the impossible happened. Everyone was surprised, amazed, and incredibly changed by what would still be today an incredible first hand experience. They all went from "Doubting Thomas" to acceptance.
Why? Well, so the story goes - He was alive, they saw him, He engaged with them and continued with a new relationship with them.
That shouldn't be that unusual. How it occurs and how it manifests itself will be diverse, personal and wonderful, to each it's own and in each person in it's own way. Similar, but different and unique. Reliably consistent, in surprising ways. As later written - though we have known Christ in the flesh, now we know Him that way no longer.
There were many ways that Christ was viewed and validated even when He was alive and "in the flesh" - son of man, son of God, Lord, rabbi, prophet, teacher, liar, "devil". It's no surprise - it's very simply natural really - that the same would be true today. As a man or as resurrected Lord on the "right hand of God" He's been knowable from many differerent and diverse perspectives.
excali really makes a great point and one that requires no apology. It is what is and that's enough - when it is. :)
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JavaJane
I like you, socks! Great post!
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socks
Well thank you javajane! It's nice to be liked. I like you too!
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excathedra
thanks chocks and socks (who came out of the drawer or dirty laundry basket for this thread :))
i'm happy that happygay started the thread too
i know jesus christ told me i could could come to him for rest when i was weary and had heavy burdens. i counted on him for that when i was like seven years old and would go by myself to the altar when they used leave empty cath. churches open.
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socks
That drawer beckons, exnack, warm and cozy. Perhaps it would be fitting to close with this, that the inner reality of knowing Christ is as real to me today as this keyboard, no less so for sure. I may be nuts, I may be wrong but I'm not alone in that, I know. (and I'm certain I'm not wrong but it always sounds good to leave that window cracked open a little despite the fact that if pressed back against the wall I'd be happy to go with that rather than denying it).
The real question might be "Does Christ know me?"
Long ago, reading the Gospels it struck me how accepting Christ was of those who came to Him. Messy, messed up, life in disarray or wrapped tight and ready to go, His followers, well, followed Him. He's painted as a man who knew His audience even when they declared allegiance to the death, knowing perhaps that in the end they'd be exactly who and what they were - human, imperfect, trying with every breath at times, dying with every breath at others. So He was there for them, stolid and solid in His understanding of exactly who He Himself was and deeply aware that no one else was going to be that Man, that One, but Him. So He remained true to that to the end, and beyond.
His followers changed, according to the records, once they too understood. Yet, even a man dead and risen again wouldn't validate the claim "son of God", "Savior", "Lord". Their lives were lit by an understanding that went even beyond that, that in His presence was the image of God, the Son making visible to all the Father.
This reality is made known I believe in the lives and hearts of people even today. The intangible made coherent to our perception. It is in fact when we "see" that in others we see that Christ who declares His Father. It's like going Home when the planets align, so to speak, and they do, all the time, all the time.
What I realized then was how great His "Love" really was and - dare I think it - "is". His followers weren't denied for what they'd done wrong nor for their lack of faith or trust in Him, rather they were accepted because they were there, present and accounted for, stupid or smart, right or wrong but finally and ultimately saying "I believe". They had no other choice.
Once I stopped worrying about how impossible it was and realized how possible it was, It struck me that if He'd loved and stood by those people all those years ago, He could love even me. And I've been Home ever since. In a very real way love saved me and showed me the Way.
I'd invite anyone who hasn't for whatever reasons to give it a shot. Read the Gospels and the Epistles for what their stories tell. Speak to others who follow Christ and have accepted Him as the son of God and the Way, the Truth and the Life. Realize the simplicity in the fact that none of us can be anyone else but ourselves and that by being that and only that we are exactly who God would have us to be. Give Christ a try. It won't do you no harm and it can only help.
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excathedra
i really really wish i could post a song by joyful noise about open your heart and give christ a try, he's in love with you, he arose to set you on high
time doesn'theal....
nighty night
love,e
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