Let''s talk "abundance," shall we?

[OldSkool]

Well, straight out of the way of abundance and power foundational class there is the statement "God wants us to prosper in all categories in life." Then there are the numerous pamphlets and appendix articles that state how we will have all that we need as we tithe and abundantly share. The way international references Job who was the richest man in the east. They talk how Jesus would have been rich due to the gifts from the wise men, and on they go.

Now, I'm fine with prosperity. Make as much money as you want. But I thought I would talk a little about this supposed abundance that simply does not happen from believing their twisted doctrines. Really we need look no further than how they handle staff illnesses.

Let me preface this by acknowledging the old system that was in effect before the Allen lawsuit. The way international covered all medical expenses and controlled when people went to the doctor by way of approval. They would discourage doctor visits in those days. But when something catastrophic happened they would at least cover it. Correct me on this as that is my impression at least.

Well, the kinder gentler way has mastered the art of ducking their fiduciary responsibilities as employers and hosing the employee in grand fashion. Currently the way international provides "health insurance" through Medical Mutual of Ohio for staff at headquarters. When I tell you this plan is cheesy I am being nice. It has a 20% copay, and extremely low limits. It also has very low lifetime maximums. The plan is great at catching dental visits, eye exams, routine checkups, etc. But when something big comes along you are out in the cold in a hurry.

So how do they cover for this? Usually, an appointment with G@ry Fr3d3r1ck for some counseling. You see, he knows all the ins and outs of getting the person in need set up on Medicaid, Disability, and government assistance programs. He doesn't sign anyone up. He merely points the way. I have seen people come away very confused from these meetings because they thought they worked in a legitimate corporate environment only to find they don't! The see their insurance vanish permanently for next to nothing, relatively speaking. Then they come to realize that they are paid significantly less than 200% of the federal poverty levels, qualifying them for Medicaid, WIC, and the like.

To summarize - the way international keeps a self funded insurance plan that does little more that get you some routine checkups. They purposely have lifetime maximums artificially low so they do not have to absorb their fiduciary responsibility to cover their employees health care costs in any meaningful way. The pay on staff is so lousy that you are guaranteed to be eligible for government assistance.

Oh smack to potential hires! They tout their 401k and stress the "great" health insurance they provide!

BTW - my intentions are not to slam or discuss any social assistance programs of their own merits. Only point out how the way shirks it's fiduciary responsibilities, letting the tax payers pick up the bill! All the while they are hording $54 million in assets.

To keep this initial post short, I am purposely leaving out the way international's followers on the field. They are in worse shape in some ways. Clunker cars, no health insurance at all due to blowing off college to participate in ministry programs - read crappy jobs here, doomed to rent their entire lives, etc. Really this could be another thread.

Here's some external links:

http://jfs.ohio.gov/Ohp/consumers/whoqualifies.stm

http://jfs.ohio.gov/Ohp/consumers/familychild.stm

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/index.shtml

Children

http://jfs.ohio.gov/Ohp/consumers/HSHFIncomeGuidelines.pdf

Adults

http://jfs.ohio.gov/Ohp/consumers/ABDIncomeGuidelines.pdf

[chockfull]

Awesome exposure of some really questionable practices there, OS.

One point to make on the 401k program. First of all, the precursor to having a 401k that actually will be used AT ALL is that you have to have a salary that provides for a percentage beyond bare minimal need. And TWI's salary, at levels that qualify for welfare, does not. How can you put 4% - 12% of your salary aside for retirement if that amount is not there? I would be curious to see what percentages of staff actually use the 401k program.

Next point on that is their employer matching structure. Usually this is done on a percentage basis. Not so at TWI. They contribute a fixed amount, and it's ridiculous until you've been on staff for 10 years. Now who really benefits are those who have been on staff 20 years - such as Q-Tip and her faithful sidekick. But the rest of the staff, not so much.

[Tzaia]

One year (probably the last year we went to ROA) as we were trudging through the field of quack grass where the cars were parked, I remarked to my husband how much the parking lot looked like one of those junk car lots that are used for parts. I asked if this is how TWI envisioned the "abundant life". I was appalled. My husband was faithfully tithing - probably doing the 15% - I don't know for sure. However, I put a stop to that when I was doing everything that I could to keep the home budget under control, yet there was no money to buy the kids shoes or new clothes. When VPW pulled up to the limb on a customized Harley and a motor home with an entourage, I came home and told him that we weren't giving 10% of our income for that - not when our kids need shoes. Not when I need reliable transportation. I was no longer willing to give up necessities when this guy was wandering the country on a Harley.

Those in the grips of the TWI system tend to narrow their options in order to conform to TWI's notion of what abundance looks like so much that I've known of people who have gone on staff out of desperation. Deluding themselves into thinking that somehow working on staff will meet their "needs". I guess it does as long as one has no needs.

Have you ever met a rich old codger who was also generous? I haven't. I (briefly) worked for a guy who wouldn't even consider putting together any sort of health or 401k plan for his employees. He didn't need it, so he couldn't be bothered with having either one of those benefits. He was another one who kept wages low enough so employees qualified for public benefits. I have no respect for a person who builds his wealth by under paying staff or continually withholding payments to vendors. That's how TWI operates, and the sooner staff gets a clue about that, the better.

[OldSkool]

On another note, I had a conversation with R1c0 M@gn3ll1 where he told me, and I quote "Government programs were put in place by God to bless his people. They are there for the believers all we have to do is claim them."

They also pat themselves on the back for staying debt free by going on public assistance. It's just twisted.

[Tzaia]

On another note, I had a conversation with R1c0 M@gn3ll1 where he told me, and I quote "Government programs were put in place by God to bless his people. They are there for the believers all we have to do is claim them."

They also pat themselves on the back for staying debt free by going on public assistance. It's just twisted.

I've heard that before - just not from a TWIer - to which I replied, "Really?! And just who do you think pays for that. God? No, it's the people who do earn above the poverty level, and perhaps someday your children unless they continue the cycle, or maybe even China who has been quickly buying up all of our debt, you moron."

And yes it is twisted.

[What About It]

Yep, I'll vouch for that. It's all true. Unbelievably low lifetime max--in fact, so low that when I would call the ins. company (and remember I had about 13 years of seniority, so I had a "good" plan), the reps would tell me "Now you know your lifetime max is only $xx, right?" OK, I'll give you a clue--it had 5, yep, only 5, digits. I know of some new staff people whose lifetime max was only 4 digits. Is that crazy? You can't even check into the hospital with that!

When I went into the hospital, I refused to sign the financial responsibility paperwork. They can't throw you out--they have to provide you with service. So I refused to sign because I knew how low the coverage was.

And about the 401K. I had it good, because of my seniority. When they began the 401K, I had I think 8 years of seniority, so all my contributions were fully vested and I was eligible for the employer contribution. You didn't know what the employer contribution was going to be, but at the end of the year you'd get a letter that had the list of years of seniority and how much the employer would contribute. At my seniority, the employer contribution was usually double what I contributed, so it was a good deal for me. However, most people with less than 8 years seniority didn't even use the plan. In fact, enrollment was so low when it began that the holy directors sent out a letter to the staff to "encourage" enrollment. They couldn't believe that so many people wouldn't "steward their finances" wisely and take advantage of this great plan that the directors so lovingly set up for the benefit of the staff. (barf barf--as if it was all for the staff and not an enticement to get new staff)

[OldSkool]

"Now you know your lifetime max is only $xx, right?" OK, I'll give you a clue--it had 5, yep, only 5, digits. I know of some new staff people whose lifetime max was only 4 digits. Is that crazy? You can't even check into the hospital with that!

Which reminds me. There are a number of staff who run their plans out and incur medical debt because they never go for "help." They hide out on staff with debt until they can pay it off and never tell anyone. I knew of at least two folks in this position when I was on staff. So, the folks who want to be responsible for their own medical payments would be tossed off of staff because the would be considered to have debt, which is a BIG no-no for staff of the way international. But if the tax payers pick up the tab, in spite of one's ability to pay, then that is noble and doing the werd because one remains debt free!

How-a-bout-it-keeeds.

[chockfull]

On another note, I had a conversation with R1c0 M@gn3ll1 where he told me, and I quote "Government programs were put in place by God to bless his people. They are there for the believers all we have to do is claim them."

They also pat themselves on the back for staying debt free by going on public assistance. It's just twisted.

Well that's just a whole new spin on "the abundant life" that Jesus Christ came to make available. I wonder if they will put that one into the next version of the Foundational Class?

[OldSkool]

Well that's just a whole new spin on "the abundant life" that Jesus Christ came to make available. I wonder if they will put that one into the next version of the Foundational Class?

Probably should be considered secret "advanced" knowledge. <_<

[skyrider]

On another note, I had a conversation with R1c0 M@gn3ll1 where he told me, and I quote "Government programs were put in place by God to bless his people. They are there for the believers all we have to do is claim them."

They also pat themselves on the back for staying debt free by going on public assistance. It's just twisted.

And.......back in the early 90s, martindale insisted that GRANDPARENTS should be one of the first in line to help with college expenses. Obviously, martindale knew that (believer) parents of these kids were already tapped out.

<_<

[Ham]

Sounds like da way jumped on the bandwagon of the Wal*Warts of the world..

That's how they can do "business" you know..

Now its more than the hidden costs of "capitalism".. its the hidden cost of religion..

so pathetic..

[OldSkool]

Except wal-mart no doubt treats their employees better.

[Guest Balanced]

OldSkool, Great subject. You got my mind going and my heart racing.

FYI-I heard they switched from Medical Mutual to Anthem last year.

When I was on Staff I never knew about any government programs. We paid a lot out of pocket to have my child due to it being a high risk pregnancy and delivery. I knew I'd never be able to have any more children making squat $.

A local person told me about WIC which was a blessing. My child was unable to be breastfed and the cost of formula is insane. So thankfully, WIC was helpful for that, otherwise we would've had no money whatsoever.

Another topic for discussion sometime is how bottle feeding was seemed as a bad thing. I was so scared to bottle feed my child during lunch in the dining room. I was the only one doing it. Either I was going to feed my child or allow him to starve. I began a trend because the next year I saw others bottle feeding their children if/when they didn't breastfeed. Where's the abundance? A thriving baby or starving baby.

When I began on Staff we were still on the "need basis" pay. I was single, not a big deal. Yet, I went in to talk with the Personnel Director about getting a raise. Ha ha. I was so naive. I needed to make more money so I could buy a car and still have a little money for other categories. Of course, I was denied. As I said, I was so naive. Then within my first year, the pay scale changed. We got a salary and paid rent, etc. I was able to save money for that car. I sold my first car to go on Staff. I sold and tossed a lot of stuff to go on Staff. How is that abundant? I was living off their stuff.

I think everyone's definition of abundant(ce) can be different. And what I think is abundance in one category could be different for another person. When my family can't pay for basic expenses but are expected to tithe 10% then I don't see any abundance. I also can't give with cheerfulness when this is the case. I've been there. I was a very unblessed person.

My life is prosperous and very abundant now that I'm out. I've taken God out of the box.

As far as other government agencies like Medicaid, they have a profit when not abused. Our family was on Medicaid for a short time when our income was low, we cut our expenses to the lowest possible, we needed to make sure our child could get medical care at a lower cost to us. We took the child to get medical care whether or not we had insurance but Medicaid was helpful for that short time. Then after patiently waiting and finally taking God more out of that box, we got majorly blessed with a wonderful income with wonderful benefits. We are savers now with the extra financial abundance God has blessed us with. We also give and help out others who have a need, cheerfully and by our own choice, not out of obligation.

Balanced

[OldSkool]

I think everyone's definition of abundant(ce) can be different. And what I think is abundance in one category could be different for another person. When my family can't pay for basic expenses but are expected to tithe 10% then I don't see any abundance. I also can't give with cheerfulness when this is the case.

Yep! It is a very relative term. Except with the way international their definition of abundance always seems to justify their followers getting by with less while giving more to the way international!

[OldSkool]

Seems they kept around $10 million in a medical fund as of 2008. My theory is they simply don't have the cash to operate the size of operation the would like to appear to be. So instead of cutting staff, revising systems, streamlining processes, etc, they keep appearances at the expense of their staff and others who abundantly share. They don't have the resources to operate as a true global non-profit, with work in 30 countries. Nope not at all.

In short they obviously have no genuine interest in improving living conditions for their staff.

[Ham]

makes me wonder.. what in the hell are they doing with 2.2 million in CASH?

just a thought. Usually, the treasurer in the radio club here explains how $200 in various membership fees, etc.. is on the way to the bank..

[OldSkool]

makes me wonder.. what in the hell are they doing with 2.2 million in CASH?

Well, probably if ole' VeePee's doomsday scenarios play out they feel like they have enough cash to operate w/o utilities. But I don't really know. Funny thing is that is VeePee's doomsday scenarios were to play out the cash they have hoarded would become worthless anyways.

[What About It]

Since the 401K is now part of this thread too...I know someone, a certain former Trunk Coordinator who was in his 50s or so at the time, he declared his great retirement plan: to live with believers.

hahahaha

So you're gonna be a sponge, ya big mooch? From Trunk Coordinator to Sponge. What an abundant life! Well, I guess this isn't so

[OldSkool]

Since the 401K is now part of this thread too...I know someone, a certain former Trunk Coordinator who was in his 50s or so at the time, he declared his great retirement plan: to live with believers.

hahahaha

So you're gonna be a sponge, ya big mooch? From Trunk Coordinator to Sponge. What an abundant life! Well, I guess this isn't so

Perhaps he should have said live off of believers... :unsure:

[waysider]

Jesus came into this world so we could have lots of stuff. I know because that's what V.P (You know he wasn't really a doctor, don't you?) Wierwille said in Power For Abundant Living. Yeah, it was all about us getting lots of stuff. And I guess Jesus musta had lots of stuff, too, because Wierwille said so on page 4 of PFAL. "This book, Power For Abundant Living, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived." But then, later on, we were told it wasn't really about stuff, it's spiritual. Except, if you were the big dawg, like V.P. (You know he wasn't really a doctor, don't you?) Wierwille, it really WAS about stuff. Stuff like fancy shmantzy motor scooters and kick azz old cars. Not to mention, a private jet, 2 motor-coaches, a domestic staff, a bevy of concubines, primo property for hunting and fishing, lots of expensive hunting and fishing gear and dogs and enough booze to float the Spanish Armada. But, as far as I know, he only got one glass eye to take the place of the real one the devil spirits stole from him. So, maybe he didn't have such an abundant life after all.

Edited July 9, 2010 by waysider

[Broken Arrow]

Since the 401K is now part of this thread too...I know someone, a certain former Trunk Coordinator who was in his 50s or so at the time, he declared his great retirement plan: to live with believers.

hahahaha

So you're gonna be a sponge, ya big mooch? From Trunk Coordinator to Sponge. What an abundant life! Well, I guess this isn't so

Yep! Well, "Don't treadeth out the ox that eats the corn". That's the verse they use. As far as him living off of believers, he's been doing that all along anyway.

[JavaJane]

We had an elderly emeritus corps lady who lived in our area for while - she had worked for her entire working life for TWI... she started having health problems and they gave her the boot (under the guise of "it's for your health!")... with nothing, no retirement, no pension, NOTHING except a free moving van and a couple of Staff guys to help her pack her stuff. I always had a problem with that. She had no one - no kids or family to fall back on, and she had given her life for this ministry that didn't even bother to take care of her when she got old and sick. Last I knew she was still working... She will never be able to retire.

Is that the abundant life?

[Broken Arrow]

Jesus came into this world so we could have lots of stuff. I know because that's what V.P (You know he wasn't really a doctor, don't you?) Wierwille said in Power For Abundant Living. Yeah, it was all about us getting lots of stuff. And I guess Jesus musta had lots of stuff, too, because Wierwille said so on page 4 of PFAL. "This book, Power For Abundant Living, is one way of showing interested people the abundant life which Jesus Christ lived." But then, later on, we were told it wasn't really about stuff, it's spiritual. Except, if you were the big dawg, like V.P. (You know he wasn't really a doctor, don't you?) Wierwille, it really WAS about stuff. Stuff like fancy shmantzy motor scooters and kick azz old cars. Not to mention, a private jet, 2 motor-coaches, a domestic staff, a bevy of concubines, primo property for hunting and fishing, lots of expensive hunting and fishing gear and dogs and enough booze to float the Spanish Armada. But, as far as I know, he only got one glass eye to take the place of the real one the devil spirits stole from him. So, maybe he didn't have such an abundant life after all.

Now...you know full well that V.P. "traveled light". He didn't own any of those things, they belonged to the Ministry and were there to bless people. They belonged to you and I and everyone else. Well, I bet we could have even used any one of those vehicles ourselves if we had just asked.

Edited July 9, 2010 by erkjohn

[Nottawayfer]

My life is prosperous and very abundant now that I'm out. I've taken God out of the box.

This is the most valuable part of learning about real abundance. We lived far below abundant at Headquarters. I was on Staff for 5 years, and I had credit card debt. I didn't get kicked in the arse by the adversary either. I paid it off when I got a REAL job, making abundant MONEY!!

[OldSkool]

She will never be able to retire.

Is that the abundant life?

And I think this is in part the reason they came up with that lamo little 401k at HQ. If I have met one disgruntled lifer who knows they are totally dependent on living on staff to eek out a living I have met a hundred. The folks who have literally "staked" their lives on the way international and have managed to accumulate a few years seem to get this eerie sense that they have little to nothing to show for it.

What's the standard response from the almighty board of dummies? "God will give you what you need when you need it."