I think that's how most (all?) of the off-shoots got started.
Love,
Steve
Most of the offshoots, from what I've seen, don't dialogue with other Christians and don't read any outside material. Then again, there's JAL so that shoots that theory, huh?
Most of the offshoots, from what I've seen, don't dialogue with other Christians and don't read any outside material. Then again, there's JAL so that shoots that theory, huh?
In the late-'80s through early-'90s, John, John and Mark did a lot of scouting out other "ministries." Anthony Buzzard, Dale Sides, Greg Pharis and Dan Tocchini come to mind off the top of my head.
But it turned out that most of the groups were looking to grow by absorbing each others' membership, not to learn by listening to others' opinions. Anthony Buzzard was the only one who was behaving in a truly interdenomionational manner, and I still get his mailings from time to time. He runs an annual conference, which I attended once. Buzzard didn't hog the stage, and there were all kinds of outside speakers. One of the most interesting was an athiest historian who specialized in church history.
All the others except Tocchini went their own ways when they found they couldn't convert CES to their own way of thinking.
Tocchini reeled CES into the Momentus training, hook, line and sinker. Vastly worse than TWI (if you can imagine THAT).
CES thought to turn Pharis into a unitarian. Pharis thought to turn CES into part of the personal prophesy movement. Pharis won, with all the spiders-crawling-out-of-peoples-noses dream business following.
CES DID dialogue in its early days. There were open Q&A sessions at the annual meetings. But I remember the year where they replaced the Q&A session with one where the leaders sat on the stage with their respective spouses and "shared their hearts", just like the Trustees of TWI did. Dialogue ended, and John, John and Mark returned to their vomit.
Most of the offshoots, from what I've seen, don't dialogue with other Christians and don't read any outside material. Then again, there's JAL so that shoots that theory, huh?
In the beginning, CES was very open to reading other people's ideas and to open dialogue. JAL sold all his TWI stuff and I don't recall seeing any of it in his house or at the office. Then little by little the talk stopped. SP was gone to seminary along with RD and RB. Along comes JWS and MG. It wasn't until (relatively) recently that I found out why RD and RB left. They were just gone. In MG's office, the shelves were full of books that one would have never seen in a wayfer's home. I perceived MG as sort of a mystic. We talked about everything and that was such a relief after not being able to openly disagree in TWI. One time JAL told me he thought TWI had 70% of its doctrine right. I told him I thought it was closer to 70% wrong. I urged all of them to critically examine every belief they had. As I proofed their books, I challenged several of their conclusions that held to TWI doctrine and a few of my conclusions made it into their books. They were, at one time, very open to discussion.
I didn't attend CES fellowships after the Momentus blowup, because as best I could see, Momentus was a sort of fast track to corp mentality, and that was something I could do without. I don't know why they latched onto that as something that would be good for CES, other than it felt familiar. Apparently the 4 page hold harmless agreement didn't set off any alarms. It was at that time I started questioning their judgment as a group. After that, I really have no idea about what was taught in fellowships. I wasn't interested in knowing. I pretty much stuck to their reading material. I started seeing whiffs of personal prophecy, but I never asked them to speak over me, nor did I let them when they offered. No one pressured me. I did not really start thinking WTF until DG made the decision to move here. I was told that he was coming to shake things up. Not being entirely sure what that meant, I stayed around. By the time he arrived, I was spending a day every week in the home office. That was when I started seeing the group for what it was and what it was becoming. I warned MG about it. Had I known what was really going on with JAL and his wife, I would have warned him as well. Even without knowing the details, I had cautioned all of them about using each other for personal and marriage counseling. Now I believe that it was an overall disdain for outsiders that caused this wariness about going to professionals for counsel, and set them up for devouring each other.
JAL honestly sees himself as a great teacher, and like any good salesman, he is relentless in his pursuit.
In the late-'80s through early-'90s, John, John and Mark did a lot of scouting out other "ministries." Anthony Buzzard, Dale Sides, Greg Pharis and Dan Tocchini come to mind off the top of my head.
But it turned out that most of the groups were looking to grow by absorbing each others' membership, not to learn by listening to others' opinions. Anthony Buzzard was the only one who was behaving in a truly interdenomionational manner, and I still get his mailings from time to time. He runs an annual conference, which I attended once. Buzzard didn't hog the stage, and there were all kinds of outside speakers. One of the most interesting was an athiest historian who specialized in church history.
All the others except Tocchini went their own ways when they found they couldn't convert CES to their own way of thinking.
Tocchini reeled CES into the Momentus training, hook, line and sinker. Vastly worse than TWI (if you can imagine THAT).
CES thought to turn Pharis into a unitarian. Pharis thought to turn CES into part of the personal prophesy movement. Pharis won, with all the spiders-crawling-out-of-peoples-noses dream business following.
CES DID dialogue in its early days. There were open Q&A sessions at the annual meetings. But I remember the year where they replaced the Q&A session with one where the leaders sat on the stage with their respective spouses and "shared their hearts", just like the Trustees of TWI did. Dialogue ended, and John, John and Mark returned to their vomit.
Thanks Steve....lots of interesting points there.
Interesting how you note that these guys were trying to absorb (recruit) each others' membership to follow them......hmmmm, where have I seen this before? Oh yeah, wierwille, geer, and every offshoot leader out there.
Everything that I've ever heard or read about Momentus leads me to believe that it was the most blatant, twisted, indoctrination tool. Maliciously displaying others' sins and skeletons for 'group therapy' and pointed confrontation.....is FAR WORSE than the corps indoctrination that I received in twi. Masked in christian veneer, where in the scriptures are private sins laid bare for public perusal?
Momentus, personal prophesy, etc......offshoots gone wild.
Tocchini not only reeled them in, he did it with what I believe was disdain. Back before most mainstreams got a clue that he was nothing more than a lying, abusing sack-of-sh!t, he was extolling the virtues of how what he was doing "healed" churches. He named a few on his website - not CES - which was probably his bread and butter at the time. I brought that up to the Js and M. JAL said "we're in dialog about his trinitarian belief and I think we're turning the corner." "BS," I said, "He's stringing you along for the meal-ticket you are. He has no intention of going non-trinitarian, not publicly, because there are a lot more trinitarians out there, and that's where the future money is. When are you going to get a clue that he's using you for your influence and that he doesn't care that being his shill is going to cost you your credibility?"
Seriously - the more off-the-wall something was, the more those boys ate it up.
Which makes me wonder.. if one doesn't have professional ties, a different "side" profession.. what does an unemployed ex-way "clergy" or recognized "clergy" by da new organization DO? Start their own offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot?
I hope it wasn't the fella I know who abandoned a career here..
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Steve Lortz
I think that's how most (all?) of the off-shoots got started.
Love,
Steve
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Broken Arrow
Most of the offshoots, from what I've seen, don't dialogue with other Christians and don't read any outside material. Then again, there's JAL so that shoots that theory, huh?
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Steve Lortz
In the late-'80s through early-'90s, John, John and Mark did a lot of scouting out other "ministries." Anthony Buzzard, Dale Sides, Greg Pharis and Dan Tocchini come to mind off the top of my head.
But it turned out that most of the groups were looking to grow by absorbing each others' membership, not to learn by listening to others' opinions. Anthony Buzzard was the only one who was behaving in a truly interdenomionational manner, and I still get his mailings from time to time. He runs an annual conference, which I attended once. Buzzard didn't hog the stage, and there were all kinds of outside speakers. One of the most interesting was an athiest historian who specialized in church history.
All the others except Tocchini went their own ways when they found they couldn't convert CES to their own way of thinking.
Tocchini reeled CES into the Momentus training, hook, line and sinker. Vastly worse than TWI (if you can imagine THAT).
CES thought to turn Pharis into a unitarian. Pharis thought to turn CES into part of the personal prophesy movement. Pharis won, with all the spiders-crawling-out-of-peoples-noses dream business following.
CES DID dialogue in its early days. There were open Q&A sessions at the annual meetings. But I remember the year where they replaced the Q&A session with one where the leaders sat on the stage with their respective spouses and "shared their hearts", just like the Trustees of TWI did. Dialogue ended, and John, John and Mark returned to their vomit.
Love,
Steve
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Tzaia
In the beginning, CES was very open to reading other people's ideas and to open dialogue. JAL sold all his TWI stuff and I don't recall seeing any of it in his house or at the office. Then little by little the talk stopped. SP was gone to seminary along with RD and RB. Along comes JWS and MG. It wasn't until (relatively) recently that I found out why RD and RB left. They were just gone. In MG's office, the shelves were full of books that one would have never seen in a wayfer's home. I perceived MG as sort of a mystic. We talked about everything and that was such a relief after not being able to openly disagree in TWI. One time JAL told me he thought TWI had 70% of its doctrine right. I told him I thought it was closer to 70% wrong. I urged all of them to critically examine every belief they had. As I proofed their books, I challenged several of their conclusions that held to TWI doctrine and a few of my conclusions made it into their books. They were, at one time, very open to discussion.
I didn't attend CES fellowships after the Momentus blowup, because as best I could see, Momentus was a sort of fast track to corp mentality, and that was something I could do without. I don't know why they latched onto that as something that would be good for CES, other than it felt familiar. Apparently the 4 page hold harmless agreement didn't set off any alarms. It was at that time I started questioning their judgment as a group. After that, I really have no idea about what was taught in fellowships. I wasn't interested in knowing. I pretty much stuck to their reading material. I started seeing whiffs of personal prophecy, but I never asked them to speak over me, nor did I let them when they offered. No one pressured me. I did not really start thinking WTF until DG made the decision to move here. I was told that he was coming to shake things up. Not being entirely sure what that meant, I stayed around. By the time he arrived, I was spending a day every week in the home office. That was when I started seeing the group for what it was and what it was becoming. I warned MG about it. Had I known what was really going on with JAL and his wife, I would have warned him as well. Even without knowing the details, I had cautioned all of them about using each other for personal and marriage counseling. Now I believe that it was an overall disdain for outsiders that caused this wariness about going to professionals for counsel, and set them up for devouring each other.
JAL honestly sees himself as a great teacher, and like any good salesman, he is relentless in his pursuit.
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skyrider
Thanks Steve....lots of interesting points there.
Interesting how you note that these guys were trying to absorb (recruit) each others' membership to follow them......hmmmm, where have I seen this before? Oh yeah, wierwille, geer, and every offshoot leader out there.
Everything that I've ever heard or read about Momentus leads me to believe that it was the most blatant, twisted, indoctrination tool. Maliciously displaying others' sins and skeletons for 'group therapy' and pointed confrontation.....is FAR WORSE than the corps indoctrination that I received in twi. Masked in christian veneer, where in the scriptures are private sins laid bare for public perusal?
Momentus, personal prophesy, etc......offshoots gone wild.
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Tzaia
Tocchini not only reeled them in, he did it with what I believe was disdain. Back before most mainstreams got a clue that he was nothing more than a lying, abusing sack-of-sh!t, he was extolling the virtues of how what he was doing "healed" churches. He named a few on his website - not CES - which was probably his bread and butter at the time. I brought that up to the Js and M. JAL said "we're in dialog about his trinitarian belief and I think we're turning the corner." "BS," I said, "He's stringing you along for the meal-ticket you are. He has no intention of going non-trinitarian, not publicly, because there are a lot more trinitarians out there, and that's where the future money is. When are you going to get a clue that he's using you for your influence and that he doesn't care that being his shill is going to cost you your credibility?"
Seriously - the more off-the-wall something was, the more those boys ate it up.
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Broken Arrow
I think the song fits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLWOdREpo-E
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HappyGay
Copy-Cats under a different name, perhaps. Not for me!
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