The Trouble with Offshoots

[skyrider]

Although this topic on offshoots has been dished out here at The Cafe several times before, perhaps erkjohn's post (below) will spice things up.

I stayed in an offshoot for awhile. That fellowship became very very stale, and it became more about the ego of the leader than anything else. It's still in operation today and it's still about the ego of the leader. The guy really needs to be somebody. You don't have to tell him how great he is, he'll tell you himself usually before you can get a word in edgewise. I left that group out of sheer boredom. I do other stuff now I find satisfying and fulfilling, but that's probably for another thread.

BTW, I would advise one and all to avoid offshoots. I don't like to make blanket statements, but in this case I think I'm correct in saying that any offshoot ascribes to the doctrine of TWI which is V.P. was taught The Word by God Himself. If they didn't believe that, they would not be an offshoot. In my experience, I have found that offshoots are typically even worse than TWI. Let me type that again...IN MY EXPERIENCE, I HAVE FOUND THAT OFFSHOOTS ARE TYPICALLY EVEN WORSE THAN TWI. From what I've seen, whoever has started the offshoot has a very inflated opinion of themselves and they want to be "the man" (I don't see any women starting offshoots...hmmm). There are even fewer checks and balances than there were in TWI and thus the tyranny is worse. That's all I have to say about it, but if someone wants to talk about it more, I would be more than happy to engage in a dialogue but it should be on another thread.

First of all, when it comes to offshoots........I think that TWI is an offshoot. A cursory look at Rev. BG Leonard's ministry........class structure, teacher-student relationship, emphasis on gifts/manifestations, syllabus and material, class picture, etc.......and then ALONG CAME JONES, er, wierwille.

I suppose it's fitting for some to think that wierwille's twi was the "gold standard" for heralding THE WORD OF GOD, but GreaseSpot has debunked that line of thinking a thousand ways since Sunday. Just like xeroxing a copy of a copy and what do you get? Blurred outcome!

How many offshoots of twi are out there anyways? And, how many varieties and shades of "holding to the truth of God's Word" are there? Heck, I remember running into rogue outfits in the late 70s......who CLAIMED to be following the ways of wierwille. They had pfal books and blue books for newbies to read. The Way green & black bumper stickers were on their cars. And, whenever three gathered......manifestations, to hear from God.

The big-name offshoots........the John Lynn offshoot (which now, is John Lynn heading up an offshoot of his original offshoot?) was one of the first to arrive on the scene. Then, the geerite groups........co-opted and franchised to a funnel money into Geer's pocket of promises. Lots of posturing, lots of elitism.......lots of dry delivery.

Of course, the CFF crowd embraced the wierwille mantra, the wierwille kids and wierwille fanfare. Grasping for "the good old days of twi"....the sentimental, emotional chords were tugged. Add some old way music, some familiar faces and voila!.......another offshoot is born.

Region guys and corps charisma opened doors for.....Finnygan, Seeed, Sides, Panar3llo, and many others. And, yeah, ego probably has alot to do with it. Besides, where else can you start a job "at the top"......with a home office, travel perks, fawning followers, extreme loyalty, unaccountability, and a decent salary to boot?

[JavaJane]

I once ran into a couple of kids who were taking PFAL with some group or another. They would get their books stamped everytime they took a class, and after it had been stamped 10 times they could go out and teach it themselves... I thought that was kinda weird at the time. I still think it's weird now.

Before we left there were a several young families who were bored out of their minds with the way TWI had gone with their teaching. Some of them had run into the Panere!!o crowd and thought that was the hopping place to be. I never really saw how it would be any better since it just seemed to me like some guy teaching the same stuff we were hearing. Maybe he was just a little more charismatic than what we were dealing with, but the same old disregard for people seemed to be there...

I decided a long while before I left that if I ever decided to leave TWI it would not be to just go to a clone of the same ministry down the street. If I left on my own it would be because the whole thing stunk - and to go somewhere where they were teaching the same thing would be to remain in denial.

Offshoots were just never appealing to me.

[excathedra]

The big-name offshoots........the John Lynn offshoot (which now, is John Lynn heading up an offshoot of his original offshoot?)

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha haahh ha hahhhhh ahhh ha ha hahahah aha

[roberterasmus]

So apparently (with my keen grasp of the obvious) no one seems to like offshoots. But are you still concerned about the "integrity and accuracy of the Word" (sorry, I just had to go there...). Personally I've associated myself with one and another group (from afar usually) and found that my own teaching or my wife's teaching around a dinner table much more satisfying. Hmmm...

I think over the last 10 or 15 years there has been more light for me personally in reading the Scriptures than the 15 years previously when I sat through umpteen PFAL classes, Corps this and that, and research fellowship blah, blah blah (did I forget a comma....Jesus never forgot a comma...is there a way up there for me?).

I love my wife and my kids.

I love God and His son.

Great stuff in the Bible.

Re

[TOMMYZ]

I wonder if people who are involved with offshoots don't say anything for fear of being shot down.

I will publicly admit that I have been involved with an offshoot since 1989 when the entire state of Illinois walked away after Martindale's ultimatum. It's been interesting to watch people move away from old TWI attitudes and to see the gradual change "from a cult to a church"." Since I was rank and file and not leadership there's less holding me back than others.

[skyrider]

So apparently (with my keen grasp of the obvious) no one seems to like offshoots. But are you still concerned about the "integrity and accuracy of the Word" (sorry, I just had to go there...). Personally I've associated myself with one and another group (from afar usually) and found that my own teaching or my wife's teaching around a dinner table much more satisfying. Hmmm...

Oh, there are still people who like their offshoot brand and like-minded compadres......but are not posting at this time. The CES/STI sub-forum has detailed many 'heated' discussions.

But as you point out, roberterasmus.......YOUR OWN TEACHING (or wife's) is much more satisfying than being spoon-fed other's dogma and chunks of legalism. Not surprising that the family unit, and loved shared in thoughtful discussion, is more satisfying.

The trouble with offshoots (imo).......is that most offshoots are headed up by corps who were trained in the ways of a narcissist, wierwille. All the emphasis is on "the integrity of wierwille's word"...nearly all offshoot activity is receptive-oriented. Where is the demonstration of the power of God? Where are those who hazarded their lives for the gospel's sake?

A friend of mine attended the CES offshoot in 2005 & 2006. The fellowship he attended dwindled month after month until only some 5 men regularly attended. At times, John Lynn would come teach and a few extras would show up. Every other week, on Fridays......was MOVIE NIGHT....to add some variety. Suffice it to say, boredom was settling in.

<_<

Edited July 7, 2010 by skyrider

[OldSkool]

The problem I have found with offshoots is they simply do not care about the individual. It's all about growing their stupid organizations so people can subtly commit themselves by giving time and money to the furtherance of their organizations.

[skyrider]

The problem I have found with offshoots is they simply do not care about the individual. It's all about growing their stupid organizations so people can subtly commit themselves by giving time and money to the furtherance of their organizations.

Yeah.....everything for GROWING their busines organization. Isn't it exciting to be a part of a 'tape ministry'.....and feel so connected?

Just seems like 'once on the hook'....the leader keeps the pressure on so you don't swim away or something. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

[Broken Arrow]

So apparently (with my keen grasp of the obvious) no one seems to like offshoots. But are you still concerned about the "integrity and accuracy of the Word" (sorry, I just had to go there...). Personally I've associated myself with one and another group (from afar usually) and found that my own teaching or my wife's teaching around a dinner table much more satisfying. Hmmm...

I think over the last 10 or 15 years there has been more light for me personally in reading the Scriptures than the 15 years previously when I sat through umpteen PFAL classes, Corps this and that, and research fellowship blah, blah blah (did I forget a comma....Jesus never forgot a comma...is there a way up there for me?).

I love my wife and my kids.

I love God and His son.

Great stuff in the Bible.

Re

I like gatherings where the Bible is shared. That is shared, not talked at. Places where people are challenged to think.

[Broken Arrow]

I wonder if people who are involved with offshoots don't say anything for fear of being shot down.

I will publicly admit that I have been involved with an offshoot since 1989 when the entire state of Illinois walked away after Martindale's ultimatum. It's been interesting to watch people move away from old TWI attitudes and to see the gradual change "from a cult to a church"." Since I was rank and file and not leadership there's less holding me back than others.

I'm curious, is the group still together then? Sounds like it is. Are there new faces or is it simply the same people that have been coming for the past 20 years with their adult children? Is any new information brought in from sources other than TWI, or do the teachings strictly rely on what is researched by the leader(s)? Do people in the group fellowship with other Christians or is it still a closed society like TWI was? Does the group ever partner with other churches for community service?

Edited July 7, 2010 by erkjohn

[WordWolf]

So apparently (with my keen grasp of the obvious) no one seems to like offshoots. But are you still concerned about the "integrity and accuracy of the Word" (sorry, I just had to go there...). Personally I've associated myself with one and another group (from afar usually) and found that my own teaching or my wife's teaching around a dinner table much more satisfying. Hmmm...

I think over the last 10 or 15 years there has been more light for me personally in reading the Scriptures than the 15 years previously when I sat through umpteen PFAL classes, Corps this and that, and research fellowship blah, blah blah (did I forget a comma....Jesus never forgot a comma...is there a way up there for me?).

I love my wife and my kids.

I love God and His son.

Great stuff in the Bible.

Re

Opinions vary with the posters.

Some avoid Christianity completely, having been "burned" too much.

Some avoid offshoots, some embrace THEIR offshoot.

Some still consider themselves Christian.

[Steve Lortz]

Opinions vary with the posters.

Some avoid Christianity completely, having been "burned" too much.

Some avoid offshoots, some embrace THEIR offshoot.

Some still consider themselves Christian.

When people ask me, I tell them I'm a Free-Range Baptist. That usually makes them stop and think, "Not ANOTHER group of Baptists!"

Love,

Steve

[Tzaia]

It's not just boredom with STFI. It's a lack of interaction, and yes, even being controlled to a certain extent that people are accustomed to having in their lives. People are left to their own devices. Running a home fellowship is a lot of work and without that push from HQ to do things a certain way, the motivation is diminished. STFI gets a LOT of money for putting out a monthly teaching, a bimonthly magazine and upkeep for a few websites. The vast majority of the money that comes in goes to paying salaries.

STFI isn't really evangelizing, pastoring, or spending loads of money feeding the poor - although they do some "missions" work.

[OldSkool]

The vast majority of the money that comes in goes to paying salaries.

STFI isn't really evangelizing, pastoring, or spending loads of money feeding the poor - although they do some "missions" work.

Sounds like quite the racket.

[skyrider]

It's not just boredom with STFI. It's a lack of interaction, and yes, even being controlled to a certain extent that people are accustomed to having in their lives. People are left to their own devices. Running a home fellowship is a lot of work and without that push from HQ to do things a certain way, the motivation is diminished. STFI gets a LOT of money for putting out a monthly teaching, a bimonthly magazine and upkeep for a few websites. The vast majority of the money that comes in goes to paying salaries.

I recently heard that CFF had to layoff two salaried clergy from their payroll.

STFI isn't really evangelizing, pastoring, or spending loads of money feeding the poor - although they do some "missions" work.

Hmmmm.......where have I seen this pattern?

[Ham]

When people ask me, I tell them I'm a Free-Range Baptist. That usually makes them stop and think, "Not ANOTHER group of Baptists!"

Love,

Steve

supposedly they produce more nutritious eggs.

sowie..

[TOMMYZ]

I'm curious, is the group still together then? Sounds like it is. Are there new faces or is it simply the same people that have been coming for the past 20 years with their adult children? Is any new information brought in from sources other than TWI, or do the teachings strictly rely on what is researched by the leader(s)? Do people in the group fellowship with other Christians or is it still a closed society like TWI was? Does the group ever partner with other churches for community service?

The group I'm in is about 1/2 ex TWI and about 1/2 people who are more recent. I'm sure many of the newer people aren't aware of the TWI connection, to them it's just a church. It is not a closed group. People have friends in other churches. There isn't the "us vs. them" mentality that we had in TWI. As a group there hasn't been any community service, people do that on their own. That is something I'd like to see change. My biggest concern is that it doesn't turn into " a spiritual retirement home for aging boomers who were in TWI when they were young." Yes, new information has been brought in from outside. It tends to be from the bottom up instead of vice versa. There's a lot of "Hey, have you heard this guy" among people. For example, someone will be listening to Todd White, then mention it to a friend and they'll say "yeah, I've been checking him out too." For many people it's about walking with God, not hanging on to the old days.

[Ham]

I'm sure many of the newer people aren't aware of the TWI connection,

Just curious.. what would happen if they WERE aware?

[TOMMYZ]

Ham,

Considering the big cult scare around here was in '79 I don't think the name would register.

[polynesian]

Hi Skyrider :) just interested to know who the 2 cff staff were, layed off ?

[Ham]

Which makes me wonder.. if one doesn't have professional ties, a different "side" profession.. what does an unemployed ex-way "clergy" or recognized "clergy" by da new organization DO? Start their own offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot?

I hope it wasn't the fella I know who abandoned a career here..

[JavaJane]

Which makes me wonder.. if one doesn't have professional ties, a different "side" profession.. what does an unemployed ex-way "clergy" or recognized "clergy" by da new organization DO? Start their own offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot?

I hope it wasn't the fella I know who abandoned a career here..

I do believe this is the true meaning of "The Way Tree"...

[skyrider]

Hi Skyrider :) just interested to know who the 2 cff staff were, layed off ?

I heard this from a reliable source.

1) J. n3ssle (sp?)

2) no name mentioned

[polynesian]

thanks, but sad, i enjoyed his teaching, but then, i s'pose he doesn't have to be paid to teach does he :blink:

[polar bear]

Ham and eggs. That cracks me up.

Seriously though I would highly suggest to anyone who has excited twi recently to take a year off from any offshoot or church.

Think through what you want in life. Then make a decision not based on what twi did but what you want. Most likely you will run for the hills any time a religion or offshoot is mentioned,