The dominant minority camp usually are those that don't have anything else going on in their life. They clamor and struggle and climb over others for a paid position because otherwise they would be nobodies in menial positions in society (kind of like the Forehead went back to). Like the OT says they are in priest positions for a piece of bread. And as a result they are absolutely dictated by fear. The lock step is an act, and a survival instinct. It's survival politics. With the extreme egos of those in charge as well as the low tolerance for opposing ideas and the high level of control, that's the only way they survive. It's a very diseased organization, with a corporate culture that leads to oblivion. Some of the younger leaders absolutely know this and are wasting their lives trying to hang on long enough for some of the worst to retire. It's a fool's game. At what point does selling out not change you? after 15-20 years of playing the game what makes you think you won't become the game?
Even though not every person files into the two groups, I find it interesting that nobody has come forward to dispute my perception - which I am amenable to. But we have two corroborating posts to date.
Chock, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. You speak the truth. However, Rosalie has her inner circle comprised of people that are just as deluded as she is. So there are a very small few at the center of this thing that believe it's on the money and look to their memories of Victor Paul Wierwille for guidance and how he would have done so many things. It's twisted. Perhaps they really should be separated as a class unto themselves?
Again, great perception, I enjoyed the posts.
This is not say that things are not molded in Rosalie's boring image. The current state of ministry publications attest to that. She is a very boring speaker and must mold everyone else in that image. The reason? "We want our STS and other publications to be timeless." I kid you not. It's timeless alright. It sucks now and will forever suck!
Even though not every person files into the two groups, I find it interesting that nobody has come forward to dispute my perception - which I am amenable to. But we have two corroborating posts to date.
It's kind of human nature - your two groups are: 1) Those that are really good at lying to themselves 2) Those that aren't.
Those that aren't are sublimating their true nature and it has to come out somewhere. Those that are good at lying to themselves will always have a kind of self-loathing below the surface somewhere.
Chock, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. You speak the truth. However, Rosalie has her inner circle comprised of people that are just as deluded as she is. So there are a very small few at the center of this thing that believe it's on the money and look to their memories of Victor Paul Wierwille for guidance and how he would have done so many things. It's twisted. Perhaps they really should be separated as a class unto themselves?
They have no ability to come up with a genuine strategy. And the spirit of God has long been gone, so they can't rely upon God for new light - they have to try and imitate something. And out of VP and the Forehead, their only role model is the founder. They explain away all his antics. It's easier to build a shrine to a dead man than to get along with a living one. That's people's nature too - wanting to build images before God. The inner circle has compromised their morals to screw over their fellow man so many times their conscience is completely seared.
This is not say that things are not molded in Rosalie's boring image. The current state of ministry publications attest to that. She is a very boring speaker and must mold everyone else in that image. The reason? "We want our STS and other publications to be timeless." I kid you not. It's timeless alright. It sucks now and will forever suck!
HQ has always been a place that has been molded around the personality of one person. VP, Forehead, Fugly-Q, and the next one will be no different.
It's kind of human nature - your two groups are: 1) Those that are really good at lying to themselves 2) Those that aren't.
Those that aren't are sublimating their true nature and it has to come out somewhere. Those that are good at lying to themselves will always have a kind of self-loathing below the surface somewhere.
That is as interesting as the two natures in the child of God as detailed in Romans and other Pauline epistles. Only in the case of the way international there is only allusion to the new nature. The real new nature would never produce such rancid fruit. I respond this way because that is what they chalk it up to. Really good at lying to themselves = renewed mind, whereas, Those that aren't = Un-renewed minds.
They have no ability to come up with a genuine strategy. And the spirit of God has long been gone, so they can't rely upon God for new light - they have to try and imitate something. And out of VP and the Forehead, their only role model is the founder. They explain away all his antics. It's easier to build a shrine to a dead man than to get along with a living one. That's people's nature too - wanting to build images before God. The inner circle has compromised their morals to screw over their fellow man so many times their conscience is completely seared.
So true. That is an excellent summation of the morons that run the way international. If I heard "well, what did we do last year" once, I heard it a million times. And I heard it not from subordinates or even equals in the hierarchy but from my director, who was as clueless as could be. Yet, the same inept director, da pineapple wannabe, told me EMPHATICALLY that there is YEARS OF ACCUMULATED WISDOM at the director level. Needless to say I was unimpressed.
The inner circle is exactly as you say, and I can attest to their lack of feeling from first hand dealings that resulted in my eventual departure from the way international.
HQ has always been a place that has been molded around the personality of one person. VP, Forehead, Fugly-Q, and the next one will be no different.
And the ironic part is they have faded into irrelevance. They have squandered so many able people that they are left with null. Whereas they once had expendable thousands they now have a few hundred and many of them simply will not do what the directors want. During placements my last year they so wanted a former big shot to move into a limb position from his then current branch, and he simple would not. Pssst.....hey Rosie....maybe you shouldn't have called him out as an "Old style, sit and wait type of leader, who would sit and wait by the phone to see what was needed next" in the late 90's ...eh? Dumb-a$$. Consider it poetic justice.
*There used to be very talented musicians. But they were all kicked out over nothing. It's like what happened with the ABs-those idiot leaders thought they could kick everyone out and still bring in money. They couldn't bring in good music either, especially after only "corpsse" was only allowed to do Way Prod.
* STS always the same formula. First verse of song sung by choir-then leader walks out, everyone stands and claps. They even became so numb to it themselves-Loyster didn't notice his intro was sometimes "years I spent in vanity and pride, caring not my lrd was cruzifide" Loyster would then walk out, smile and we'd all clap. Was I the only one who noticed what an ironic intro this was?
*Way Mag-I knew someone who was dropped from the corrpse for not renewing her way mag subscrp. She had shared with a room mate-but not good enough for dick head leaders. She had given up her job and place to live to accept new way corrpse position and dick head leaders told her she was dropped day before ROA over the stupid way mag thing. No job, no where to live. The wife of the state coord was a total c*** who was gleeful when she told her. Over the sucky mag that they had to brow beat people into subscribing.
*Way Mag-I knew someone who was dropped from the corrpse for not renewing her way mag subscrp. She had shared with a room mate-but not good enough for dick head leaders. She had given up her job and place to live to accept new way corrpse position and dick head leaders told her she was dropped day before ROA over the stupid way mag thing. No job, no where to live. The wife of the state coord was a total c*** who was gleeful when she told her. Over the sucky mag that they had to brow beat people into subscribing.
Good lord, that's cold. Their products all suck, they have to browbeat and coerce established followers to keep their subscriptions up, goto the service when available, attend classes, witness, and just about everything. Why? Because it all sucks.
Yet, the same inept director, da pineapple wannabe, told me EMPHATICALLY that there is YEARS OF ACCUMULATED WISDOM at the director level. Needless to say I was unimpressed.
Don't worry, pineapple, we can help you out with that.
This is a good assessment. I was not aware of the extent of group one until near the end of my time "in". I had felt alone and conflicted in my dissent. I was validated initially upon realizing that seemingly everyone agreed with me in someway - everyone had gripes, serious complaints with The Way, if you talked in confidence. What amazed me was just how many of them that were equally conflicted, and how almost everyone was afraid to speak up. Either rationalized it away as being an "insignificant matter" to be yielded on or waiting for their big opportunity to change things.
I would agree other posters that this is not a Way Corps only phenomenon but it certainly is pronounced there.
It seems tragic that all these people who want change, but are afraid to speak up, are actually in the strongest position to get it by virtue of their majority. But they don't realize it. And so their fear keeps them in check.
I am not many years removed from their ranks. Glad to no longer be counted among them.
Camp #1 - The Majority
From the very time I went in-residence, until my very last day as active way corps, I was aware of something I did not expect to find before going into the way corpse. A river of dissent and dissatisfaction from quite a few of the participants. Now, before I go any further, there were definitely a minority that LOVED all of the control, legalism, laws, structure, others straining at the least aspects of their lives. My hats off to you. I'll get back to you in a minute. The dissenters, from what I could tell vastly out number those who love all things way international.
After every STS, after reading the way magazine, after hearing the latest lectures and edicts handed down from the way corps mornings this group would divide up into sub-groups based on trust and friendship and rip it all apart. Granted, it was excused amongst them because their criticisms had a veneer of "how to fix it." Therefore, their hypocrisy is excused amongst most of them.
Common gripes include, but are not limited to:
How bad way productions always are
How scripted and dry the STS always is
How dry white toast the way magazine always was
And yet, living in utter hypocrisy this group RARELY, if ever speaks up when given the chance. No, when the pressure is turned on to conform they fall in line for one reason or another. Spineless and neutered, they persist in an organization that does not make them happy, nor do they believe in what they do. They cover themselves in cliches like "If there was someplace out there that taught the word I would leave in a minute." Obviously what they really mean is if there is some place that teaches what the way international does I would leave in a minute. This camp is trapped, held against their will even though they hold their own chains in their hands and can drop them at any time.
To this group, that I was once a part, I say - LEAVE NOW! RUN, DO NOT WALK! Life is too short to live in that type of bondage and you know it.
Camp #2 The Dominant Minority:
Then there is the other camp. These are the folks loved by the Directors. The yes men and women. Who walk lock step (or perhaps goose step) with the Directors. They love all that is, mindlessly, simply because it is. This group always considers themselves the examples of righteous living and expects that non-way corpse should emulate their example. Given the chance they will always talk about how wonderful the way international is. To them it the way international is the center of their lives. They constantly regurgitate the present truth and look for any opportunity to steer all conversations to the latest teaching.
Camp #2 sounds innocent enough except they are the zealots of the way corps. They will report the dissenters in a heart beat because they are easily offended, taking any
criticism aimed at the way international as an attack of the adversary. They will sacrifice family, friends - yea, they have NO friends when it comes to "the werd."
They are the dominant minority. To this group I say nothing because you wouldn't be caught dead reading GreaseSpot Cafe because you lack the fortitude to face the reality that you are in a twisted cult that has a criminal past. Just because you masters paid enough money to keep things out of court do not mean the wrongs were not perpetrated. Too many people witness against them and there will come a day where the secrets of men will come to light.
Has anyone else noticed these things? Or other things? I thought the post was worth putting out there to let people see what it's like "in-house."
It seems tragic that all these people who want change, but are afraid to speak up, are actually in the strongest position to get it by virtue of their majority. But they don't realize it. And so their fear keeps them in check.
Agreed.. I remember being very cautious myself when speaking of these dissenting views while I was in. About the only people I felt "comfortable" with discussing it with were those who I already knew had issues with TWI/leaders. Else I didn't want to rock the boat cause I knew it only took the wrong person to tell, and out you'd be.. But now that I look back, what I was trying to do, stay in?! lol.. I guess to some extent I was.. I wanted to see if there was anyone else I could help see what I saw, and at the same time I needed more validation because i thought maybe I was in the "wrong" for not seeing it how I thought everyone else saw it (with those rose colored spectacles). Thankfully there were a few whom I had the opportunity to help leave prior to my departure. But even when I was ready to leave I still kept quiet that week, except for confronting the top dogs Linder and the BOD face to face. Thankfully, they allowed me to give parting words to my friends. But even then, I was quiet about the details. I was still uncertain in my mind and I didn't want to hurt anyone's relationship with God. So I let them know I just didn't agree with a few things and that they ought to keep fighting for truth.. What an idiot I was! lol..
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Gen-2
Sure. There's the third Group,... the Vast Majority.
The Vast Majority has never been Way Corps. But they look at the Spineless WC and the Wannabe WC and find little there that seems attractive.
The vast majority is leaving The Way International faster* than either of the above-mentioned WC groups above,... and largely because of them.
The funniest thing is,....... The Way Corps is blind to that connection.
* edited to add "faster"
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OldSkool
Most are too self important to get that.
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bliss
1.5=The God-fearing minority
Who actually do some "side research" without the TWI filters....
and start to notice ''Way Theology'' unraveling right before their very eyes.
These would be in the silent dissenters group, however, and recognize that there IS somewhere
''OUT THERE" they could go.
Now, they have a choice to make. Unfortunately, sometimes that choice is too high a price (to them) to take a stand.
They will reap with bitterness the sting of their choice to stay.
The cost to their soul, the mental health of themselves and family, and the empty chasm engulfed between them and God, is a very high price indeed.
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Oakspear
This breakdown also occurred out "in the field" among non-Corps.
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chockfull
The dominant minority camp usually are those that don't have anything else going on in their life. They clamor and struggle and climb over others for a paid position because otherwise they would be nobodies in menial positions in society (kind of like the Forehead went back to). Like the OT says they are in priest positions for a piece of bread. And as a result they are absolutely dictated by fear. The lock step is an act, and a survival instinct. It's survival politics. With the extreme egos of those in charge as well as the low tolerance for opposing ideas and the high level of control, that's the only way they survive. It's a very diseased organization, with a corporate culture that leads to oblivion. Some of the younger leaders absolutely know this and are wasting their lives trying to hang on long enough for some of the worst to retire. It's a fool's game. At what point does selling out not change you? after 15-20 years of playing the game what makes you think you won't become the game?
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OldSkool
Even though not every person files into the two groups, I find it interesting that nobody has come forward to dispute my perception - which I am amenable to. But we have two corroborating posts to date.
Chock, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. You speak the truth. However, Rosalie has her inner circle comprised of people that are just as deluded as she is. So there are a very small few at the center of this thing that believe it's on the money and look to their memories of Victor Paul Wierwille for guidance and how he would have done so many things. It's twisted. Perhaps they really should be separated as a class unto themselves?
Again, great perception, I enjoyed the posts.
This is not say that things are not molded in Rosalie's boring image. The current state of ministry publications attest to that. She is a very boring speaker and must mold everyone else in that image. The reason? "We want our STS and other publications to be timeless." I kid you not. It's timeless alright. It sucks now and will forever suck!
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Bolshevik
idunno . . . corps, non-corps . . . it's just a label. Underneath they're "all the same".
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chockfull
It's kind of human nature - your two groups are: 1) Those that are really good at lying to themselves 2) Those that aren't.
Those that aren't are sublimating their true nature and it has to come out somewhere. Those that are good at lying to themselves will always have a kind of self-loathing below the surface somewhere.
They have no ability to come up with a genuine strategy. And the spirit of God has long been gone, so they can't rely upon God for new light - they have to try and imitate something. And out of VP and the Forehead, their only role model is the founder. They explain away all his antics. It's easier to build a shrine to a dead man than to get along with a living one. That's people's nature too - wanting to build images before God. The inner circle has compromised their morals to screw over their fellow man so many times their conscience is completely seared.
HQ has always been a place that has been molded around the personality of one person. VP, Forehead, Fugly-Q, and the next one will be no different.
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OldSkool
That is as interesting as the two natures in the child of God as detailed in Romans and other Pauline epistles. Only in the case of the way international there is only allusion to the new nature. The real new nature would never produce such rancid fruit. I respond this way because that is what they chalk it up to. Really good at lying to themselves = renewed mind, whereas, Those that aren't = Un-renewed minds.
So true. That is an excellent summation of the morons that run the way international. If I heard "well, what did we do last year" once, I heard it a million times. And I heard it not from subordinates or even equals in the hierarchy but from my director, who was as clueless as could be. Yet, the same inept director, da pineapple wannabe, told me EMPHATICALLY that there is YEARS OF ACCUMULATED WISDOM at the director level. Needless to say I was unimpressed.
The inner circle is exactly as you say, and I can attest to their lack of feeling from first hand dealings that resulted in my eventual departure from the way international.
And the ironic part is they have faded into irrelevance. They have squandered so many able people that they are left with null. Whereas they once had expendable thousands they now have a few hundred and many of them simply will not do what the directors want. During placements my last year they so wanted a former big shot to move into a limb position from his then current branch, and he simple would not. Pssst.....hey Rosie....maybe you shouldn't have called him out as an "Old style, sit and wait type of leader, who would sit and wait by the phone to see what was needed next" in the late 90's ...eh? Dumb-a$$. Consider it poetic justice.
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100% Free
*There used to be very talented musicians. But they were all kicked out over nothing. It's like what happened with the ABs-those idiot leaders thought they could kick everyone out and still bring in money. They couldn't bring in good music either, especially after only "corpsse" was only allowed to do Way Prod.
* STS always the same formula. First verse of song sung by choir-then leader walks out, everyone stands and claps. They even became so numb to it themselves-Loyster didn't notice his intro was sometimes "years I spent in vanity and pride, caring not my lrd was cruzifide" Loyster would then walk out, smile and we'd all clap. Was I the only one who noticed what an ironic intro this was?
*Way Mag-I knew someone who was dropped from the corrpse for not renewing her way mag subscrp. She had shared with a room mate-but not good enough for dick head leaders. She had given up her job and place to live to accept new way corrpse position and dick head leaders told her she was dropped day before ROA over the stupid way mag thing. No job, no where to live. The wife of the state coord was a total c*** who was gleeful when she told her. Over the sucky mag that they had to brow beat people into subscribing.
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OldSkool
Good lord, that's cold. Their products all suck, they have to browbeat and coerce established followers to keep their subscriptions up, goto the service when available, attend classes, witness, and just about everything. Why? Because it all sucks.
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chockfull
Don't worry, pineapple, we can help you out with that.
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shortfuse
This is a good assessment. I was not aware of the extent of group one until near the end of my time "in". I had felt alone and conflicted in my dissent. I was validated initially upon realizing that seemingly everyone agreed with me in someway - everyone had gripes, serious complaints with The Way, if you talked in confidence. What amazed me was just how many of them that were equally conflicted, and how almost everyone was afraid to speak up. Either rationalized it away as being an "insignificant matter" to be yielded on or waiting for their big opportunity to change things.
I would agree other posters that this is not a Way Corps only phenomenon but it certainly is pronounced there.
It seems tragic that all these people who want change, but are afraid to speak up, are actually in the strongest position to get it by virtue of their majority. But they don't realize it. And so their fear keeps them in check.
I am not many years removed from their ranks. Glad to no longer be counted among them.
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skyrider
Maybe......80% of the people didn't like confrontation and 20% welcome it.
Or.........80% of corps wanted to simply graduate and leave, while 20% want to lord over others.
Pareto principle
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TrustAndObey
Agreed.. I remember being very cautious myself when speaking of these dissenting views while I was in. About the only people I felt "comfortable" with discussing it with were those who I already knew had issues with TWI/leaders. Else I didn't want to rock the boat cause I knew it only took the wrong person to tell, and out you'd be.. But now that I look back, what I was trying to do, stay in?! lol.. I guess to some extent I was.. I wanted to see if there was anyone else I could help see what I saw, and at the same time I needed more validation because i thought maybe I was in the "wrong" for not seeing it how I thought everyone else saw it (with those rose colored spectacles). Thankfully there were a few whom I had the opportunity to help leave prior to my departure. But even when I was ready to leave I still kept quiet that week, except for confronting the top dogs Linder and the BOD face to face. Thankfully, they allowed me to give parting words to my friends. But even then, I was quiet about the details. I was still uncertain in my mind and I didn't want to hurt anyone's relationship with God. So I let them know I just didn't agree with a few things and that they ought to keep fighting for truth.. What an idiot I was! lol..
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