How about the times (there was more than one) that Wierwille stood before a small group and described how he fondled his own teenage daughter to teach her about sexual arousal.
There are posters who were present in those groups so this is NOT "hearsay".
Well, to me it seems to explain some of the cold, calculating, indifferent behavior from the leadership. Ok, personal illustration:
John Rupp took the time one morning to visit my home in an effort to divide my wife and I over an assignment issue. Issue was I was not going to accept a WC assignment due to financial hardships resulting from very frequent long distance travel to my child' doctors. Anyways. Johnnie took the time to brag, saying he has healed many folks over the years. My wife, handed our (then) toddler son to him who had multiple health issues at the time, and asked almost crying to please heal him. John took the child, held him in an awkward silence for a couple seconds and promptly handed him back to her without even praying, much less ministering and immediately started working us over on the assignment again.
Obviously, we were crushed. Here was a supposed man of God, Vice President of the way international, acting Board of Director, Reverend and his only concern was getting us in line to take the assignment the directors wanted us to take instead of the one we requested that was the best for our family's needs. I have never run across someone so cold who claimed to be a minister.
I do not think being that indifferent is normal. Much less to someone who supposedly has their conscience conditioned with God's Word. Seared with a hot iron is more like it.
So I am beginning to think there is a lengthy desensitizing process that happens over the years that erases folks empathy and compassion, replacing it with calculating indifference. Have a need? Too bad, believe bigger. God's word just works - obviously it's you , the person with the need, that needs to step it up.
Here's a little exercise: Put a pair of socks in a place where you don't normally see socks - like the fireplace mantle. Leave them there. Pretty soon it will seem normal to have a pair of sock sitting on the mantle. Now as long as you have no one else coming in who doesn't know about the "correctness" of the socks being on the mantle, you're home free - socks on the mantle is the new normal.
The more you restrict your influences, the more "normal" crazy seems. This is why abusers frequently isolate their targets as well as choose targets who are more likely to allow and enable the crazy behavior.
I will never forget when I first was told about family WC pre-teens being shown pornography featuring bestiality as part of their "training". Seriously - you thought that was ok? (I asked). Did you sit around with your parents watching porn? Do you invite your friends over for a night of porn viewing? (Maybe that did happen with some couples - I don't know). What I do know is that people who normally had their children's best interest at heart subjected their children to situations way beyond their children's comprehension that was touted to somehow help their children to become more "spiritual" about sex. These same people who we were led to believe has some insight into "godly" matters did this sort of thing to their own children apparently unaware that normalizing aberrant sexual behavior was a desensitizing tactic common among sexual predators. What I find particularly troublesome is that the parents believed that this was a relatively benign activity that caused their children no harm, until at least one child had the opportunity to confront the parents during a Momentus weekend.
I will never forget when I first was told about family WC pre-teens being shown pornography featuring bestiality as part of their "training". Seriously - you thought that was ok? (I asked).
This is one of the most disturbing things I have come to learn about the way international's sordid history.
I saw kids as young as 12 and 13 sit through CF&S. I did, in fact, question this practice. The answer I got back (per VPW) was, "What better place is there to learn about this stuff than surrounded by family that cares?" How I ever let my mind accept that rationalization, I'll never understand. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone who was a young person at the time I ran those classes.
John Rupp took the time one morning to visit my home in an effort to divide my wife and I over an assignment issue. Issue was I was not going to accept a WC assignment due to financial hardships resulting from very frequent long distance travel to my child' doctors. Anyways. Johnnie took the time to brag, saying he has healed many folks over the years. My wife, handed our (then) toddler son to him who had multiple health issues at the time, and asked almost crying to please heal him. John took the child, held him in an awkward silence for a couple seconds and promptly handed him back to her without even praying, much less ministering and immediately started working us over on the assignment again.
This reminds me of a quote from PFAL - "just when I needed the power, it wasn't there".
Which just so happens to aptly describe TWI nowadays. There are no signs, miracles, wonders. They've long gone with the active movement of the spirit of God. There is no new revelation. There is just a shell, with a few people hanging on to dull denominational - like traditions, political aspirations, and hard-hearted behavior like described above.
The ego involved in that is substantial and telling. "he has healed many folks over the years". For an individual to claim that, "I have healed many folks over the years" is taking the glory which is supposed to be placed upon
God Himself, and transferring it to a man. No, idiot, if you have been privileged to be a part of ministering healing, it is God that heals. It is God that is the focus of the center of attention, not your egotistical dumb @$$.
The trials that each of us face in life are not so easily waved away with a magic wand. The struggle in life builds character. I don't know, maybe we're meant to learn that. I'm not attributing evil to God or anything, it's just that TWI's practices of saying healing is due to "a person's believing or not" is complete bull$h1t. God wouldn't heal anyone involving a jack@$$ like that for any reason whatsoever. Who would get the credit? God? Or the man? I'm sure you guys are seeing the healing by leaving that BS organization, taking the initiative to get excellent medical care, and setting up a loving environment to raise a child, not under the thumb of little Napoleans like that.
The ego involved in that is substantial and telling. "he has healed many folks over the years". For an individual to claim that, "I have healed many folks over the years" is taking the glory which is supposed to be placed upon
God Himself, and transferring it to a man. No, idiot, if you have been privileged to be a part of ministering healing, it is God that heals. It is God that is the focus of the center of attention, not your egotistical dumb @$$.
His underlying theme that day was we would be blessed by going where we were sent. I never relented. He tried to dig me many times after things were set by making subtle, off the wall comments that always seemed to imply healing happens when a person is in service. Thats the summary. He is a very big part of the reason I left. Dude is heartless except to do what Frau Q-Tip commands.
And yes we are better off by miles without them. Our child is in excellent care and is doing great, living a normal life!
OldSkool, I am so so sorry that you were ever subjected to that kind of evil. John Rupp, you are a heartless, evil, tiny little man. You misrepresent God and use His words for your own gain. Vengeance us mine saith the Lord. You'll get yours one day.
OldSkool, I am so so sorry that you were ever subjected to that kind of evil. John Rupp, you are a heartless, evil, tiny little man. You misrepresent God and use His words for your own gain. Vengeance us mine saith the Lord. You'll get yours one day.
Thanks! Really, I should send him a thank you card. If it weren't for his bung hole ways I might still be in the way corpse and out hustling their classes on people.
How about the times (there was more than one) that Wierwille stood before a small group and described how he fondled his own teenage daughter to teach her about sexual arousal.
There are posters who were present in those groups so this is NOT "hearsay".
edit:
Maybe that would qualify as obviation, as well.
Can you refer us to the place and time of any of these meetings? What years?
I know that twi really tried to remove any sense of empathy or sympathy for anyone, and they partially succeeded with me. Until right before I got out I would rarely cry, nothing upset me... I was an ice queen. After I got out and started to let myself feel I had a lot of problems, because I had around 20 years of pent up emotions that all wanted to come out at once. I was a wreck.
I was taught by a WC branch coordinator that murder victims were "just as possessed" as those who killed them - this led me to believe that I did not need to feel any sympathy for them or their families.
I was taught that the Holocaust was wildly blown out of proportion, and that the Jews had used that excuse as a reason to manipulate the UN into giving them Israel. I didn't need to feel sorry for them.
I was taught that everyone in the "Household" was superior to everyone else - I didn't need to care about those other people.
I was taught that only born again believers had body, soul, and spirit. Everyone else was just an animal - an empty floating by. Why should I care?
I was taught I should control my emotions and my thoughts, never question "the word of God" - so I didn't. And I stopped feeling.
Being numb isn't all it's cracked up to be...
I am of the opinion that twi teaches people to be without conscience, empathy, or guilt. Basically, they are trying to breed a form of psychopaths. Back to my book, Snakes in Suits for a brief quote:
Psychopaths lack empathy and possibly even the most basic understanding of human feelings. Charateristically, the economic and emotional impact of their selfish behavior on others is irrelevant to them, in part because they believe everyone in this dog-eat-dog worls is as greedy and unfeeling as they are... ...People do not exist in their mental world except as objects, targets, and obstacles. Psychopaths also lack feelings of remorse and guilt, part of the internal moral sense that prevents the rest of us from acting out some of the fantasies we occasionally have about using, manipulating, or hurtin others. Some might suggest that psychopaths are such effective predators because they are not plagued by doubts and concerns raised by a conscience. (p46)
Psychopathology is characterized by casual sexual relationships that are devoid of a genuine, long-term emotional and personal attachments to partners. Frequent liasons, the use of sex as a weapon, and the callous treatment of intimates are common features of psychopathic individuals, both male and female. (p47)
Psychopaths have a great sense of superiority and entitlement, and think nothing of helping themselves to property that belongs to others. Their grandiose sense of self-importance leads them to believe that other people exist just to take care of them. Because they see most people as weak, inferior, and easy to deceive, psychopathic con artists will often tell you that their victims deserved what they got. Sometimes their sense of superiority is so great that they will say that they are conferring a gift by letting their victims support them. This is obvious in the many cases of cult leaders who are charlatans or outright psychopaths, but can be seen in more subtle cases as well. This condescending air toward others comes across as cocky and egotistical to many observers, but ... some may find this behavior somewhat charming, even charismatic. (p48)
I was taught I should control my emotions and my thoughts, never question "the word of God" - so I didn't. And I stopped feeling.
Being numb isn't all it's cracked up to be...
Same here. Funny thing is when I was in the way international, many times when watching corny TV late night I would often become very emotional out of the blue. Repressed feelings maybe? That doesn't happen anymore now that I have started learning to cope with situations that cause emotions. But there was a time I felt nothing and considered it righteousness.
From The Bible Tells Me So:
Righteousness is your God-given
ability to stand in the Father’s presence without a
sense of sin, guilt or condemnation.
Think about that for a minute. What if I follow this logic and then commit great wrongs against others? Well, it's obvious - they should learn to live with the injustice, no? Probably their fault anyway. Besides if they want to be spiritual they are going to have to learn to not be so religious.
I like your explanation of Psychopaths and the quotes you posted, JJ. Thanks!
How about the times (there was more than one) that Wierwille stood before a small group and described how he fondled his own teenage daughter to teach her about sexual arousal.
this made me want to vomit.
I started to wonder what he really thought about incest during one of the dozens of times sitting through PFAL (I think it was, anyway... thankfully I'm starting to forget most of the classes) where he mentioned being sexually attracted to his sisters.
I have never run across someone so cold who claimed to be a minister.
oh, i have. and i'm sorry oldschool about what happened to you. i'm glad your child is doing well and that person did you a favor.
in response to penworks, i was at a meeting with veepee. i was in the 9th and my friend was in the 11th so it had to be my last year which would have been 1980-81 ?
if i remember correctly it was an all ladies' night owl, but held indoors
veepee talked about fondling his daughter and compared it to something -- i wish dot was here -- she was 11th -- about teaching the daughter for when she would be a wife. what the heck did he compare it to? like an old tribe or something? anyway, i walked out and was in the ladies room physically sick and my friend came in and realized it was me in there. we were obviously too desensitized (is it) to press charges. we hung in there, i guess looking for a spiritual meaning pppppfffffttttt
never mind both of us come from very screwed up childhoods
Can you refer us to the place and time of any of these meetings? What years?
I'm not very skilled at doing searches but there are references to these occasions on various threads discussing the CF&S class. There are at least two posters here who have posted about being personally present at one or two of these events. These are first-hand accounts. I think mid 1970s is the approximate time frame. Now, my memory is a bit fuzzy on this one, so I can't really say where or when, but I, myself, recall VPW describing this scenario and doing a bit of a "pantomime" of it. He said something about how there are people in remote societies who do this sort of thing to teach their children about "life". I think this is where he talked about how there is no better place than the family/household to teach these things. Maybe it was in an early version of CF&S or an AC. I don't really remember. I can still picture the little "pantomime", though.
we were posting at the same time waysider. i know he showed her how to make her nipples hard. i'm sorry -- i'm having a hard time with this one.
why should this surprise me or make me sick? he told me he was the answer to showing me how to be loved by a man of god in answer to being sexually abused as a young girl
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chockfull
This reminds me of a quote from PFAL - "just when I needed the power, it wasn't there". Which just so happens to aptly describe TWI nowadays. There are no signs, miracles, wonders. They've long gon
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waysider
How about the times (there was more than one) that Wierwille stood before a small group and described how he fondled his own teenage daughter to teach her about sexual arousal.
There are posters who were present in those groups so this is NOT "hearsay".
edit:
Maybe that would qualify as obviation, as well.
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Bolshevik
Witnessing . . . "May I interupt your dinner/family time to convince you of something I don't really believe in?"
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OldSkool
Well, to me it seems to explain some of the cold, calculating, indifferent behavior from the leadership. Ok, personal illustration:
John Rupp took the time one morning to visit my home in an effort to divide my wife and I over an assignment issue. Issue was I was not going to accept a WC assignment due to financial hardships resulting from very frequent long distance travel to my child' doctors. Anyways. Johnnie took the time to brag, saying he has healed many folks over the years. My wife, handed our (then) toddler son to him who had multiple health issues at the time, and asked almost crying to please heal him. John took the child, held him in an awkward silence for a couple seconds and promptly handed him back to her without even praying, much less ministering and immediately started working us over on the assignment again.
Obviously, we were crushed. Here was a supposed man of God, Vice President of the way international, acting Board of Director, Reverend and his only concern was getting us in line to take the assignment the directors wanted us to take instead of the one we requested that was the best for our family's needs. I have never run across someone so cold who claimed to be a minister.
I do not think being that indifferent is normal. Much less to someone who supposedly has their conscience conditioned with God's Word. Seared with a hot iron is more like it.
So I am beginning to think there is a lengthy desensitizing process that happens over the years that erases folks empathy and compassion, replacing it with calculating indifference. Have a need? Too bad, believe bigger. God's word just works - obviously it's you , the person with the need, that needs to step it up.
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waysider
"Renew your mind!" (TWI style) = self induced desensitization
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waysider
"Any two believers can make a marriage work."
(I guess VP and Mrs. were the exception. <_< )
It desensitizes you to blindly accept situations that would otherwise send up blazing flares.
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Bolshevik
change your attitude!
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OldSkool
Fellowship = Reason holds the same relationship to the spirit (your holy spirit) as the body does to reason.
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Tzaia
Here's a little exercise: Put a pair of socks in a place where you don't normally see socks - like the fireplace mantle. Leave them there. Pretty soon it will seem normal to have a pair of sock sitting on the mantle. Now as long as you have no one else coming in who doesn't know about the "correctness" of the socks being on the mantle, you're home free - socks on the mantle is the new normal.
The more you restrict your influences, the more "normal" crazy seems. This is why abusers frequently isolate their targets as well as choose targets who are more likely to allow and enable the crazy behavior.
I will never forget when I first was told about family WC pre-teens being shown pornography featuring bestiality as part of their "training". Seriously - you thought that was ok? (I asked). Did you sit around with your parents watching porn? Do you invite your friends over for a night of porn viewing? (Maybe that did happen with some couples - I don't know). What I do know is that people who normally had their children's best interest at heart subjected their children to situations way beyond their children's comprehension that was touted to somehow help their children to become more "spiritual" about sex. These same people who we were led to believe has some insight into "godly" matters did this sort of thing to their own children apparently unaware that normalizing aberrant sexual behavior was a desensitizing tactic common among sexual predators. What I find particularly troublesome is that the parents believed that this was a relatively benign activity that caused their children no harm, until at least one child had the opportunity to confront the parents during a Momentus weekend.
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OldSkool
This is one of the most disturbing things I have come to learn about the way international's sordid history.
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waysider
I saw kids as young as 12 and 13 sit through CF&S. I did, in fact, question this practice. The answer I got back (per VPW) was, "What better place is there to learn about this stuff than surrounded by family that cares?" How I ever let my mind accept that rationalization, I'll never understand. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone who was a young person at the time I ran those classes.
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excathedra
oh my thoughts.... bunch of immoral losers
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Tzaia
Incest is best.
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chockfull
This reminds me of a quote from PFAL - "just when I needed the power, it wasn't there".
Which just so happens to aptly describe TWI nowadays. There are no signs, miracles, wonders. They've long gone with the active movement of the spirit of God. There is no new revelation. There is just a shell, with a few people hanging on to dull denominational - like traditions, political aspirations, and hard-hearted behavior like described above.
The ego involved in that is substantial and telling. "he has healed many folks over the years". For an individual to claim that, "I have healed many folks over the years" is taking the glory which is supposed to be placed upon
God Himself, and transferring it to a man. No, idiot, if you have been privileged to be a part of ministering healing, it is God that heals. It is God that is the focus of the center of attention, not your egotistical dumb @$$.
The trials that each of us face in life are not so easily waved away with a magic wand. The struggle in life builds character. I don't know, maybe we're meant to learn that. I'm not attributing evil to God or anything, it's just that TWI's practices of saying healing is due to "a person's believing or not" is complete bull$h1t. God wouldn't heal anyone involving a jack@$$ like that for any reason whatsoever. Who would get the credit? God? Or the man? I'm sure you guys are seeing the healing by leaving that BS organization, taking the initiative to get excellent medical care, and setting up a loving environment to raise a child, not under the thumb of little Napoleans like that.
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OldSkool
His underlying theme that day was we would be blessed by going where we were sent. I never relented. He tried to dig me many times after things were set by making subtle, off the wall comments that always seemed to imply healing happens when a person is in service. Thats the summary. He is a very big part of the reason I left. Dude is heartless except to do what Frau Q-Tip commands.
And yes we are better off by miles without them. Our child is in excellent care and is doing great, living a normal life!
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JavaJane
OldSkool, I am so so sorry that you were ever subjected to that kind of evil. John Rupp, you are a heartless, evil, tiny little man. You misrepresent God and use His words for your own gain. Vengeance us mine saith the Lord. You'll get yours one day.
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OldSkool
Thanks! Really, I should send him a thank you card. If it weren't for his bung hole ways I might still be in the way corpse and out hustling their classes on people.
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penworks
Can you refer us to the place and time of any of these meetings? What years?
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JavaJane
I know that twi really tried to remove any sense of empathy or sympathy for anyone, and they partially succeeded with me. Until right before I got out I would rarely cry, nothing upset me... I was an ice queen. After I got out and started to let myself feel I had a lot of problems, because I had around 20 years of pent up emotions that all wanted to come out at once. I was a wreck.
I was taught by a WC branch coordinator that murder victims were "just as possessed" as those who killed them - this led me to believe that I did not need to feel any sympathy for them or their families.
I was taught that the Holocaust was wildly blown out of proportion, and that the Jews had used that excuse as a reason to manipulate the UN into giving them Israel. I didn't need to feel sorry for them.
I was taught that everyone in the "Household" was superior to everyone else - I didn't need to care about those other people.
I was taught that only born again believers had body, soul, and spirit. Everyone else was just an animal - an empty floating by. Why should I care?
I was taught I should control my emotions and my thoughts, never question "the word of God" - so I didn't. And I stopped feeling.
Being numb isn't all it's cracked up to be...
I am of the opinion that twi teaches people to be without conscience, empathy, or guilt. Basically, they are trying to breed a form of psychopaths. Back to my book, Snakes in Suits for a brief quote:
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OldSkool
Same here. Funny thing is when I was in the way international, many times when watching corny TV late night I would often become very emotional out of the blue. Repressed feelings maybe? That doesn't happen anymore now that I have started learning to cope with situations that cause emotions. But there was a time I felt nothing and considered it righteousness.
From The Bible Tells Me So:
Think about that for a minute. What if I follow this logic and then commit great wrongs against others? Well, it's obvious - they should learn to live with the injustice, no? Probably their fault anyway. Besides if they want to be spiritual they are going to have to learn to not be so religious.
I like your explanation of Psychopaths and the quotes you posted, JJ. Thanks!
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potato
this made me want to vomit.
I started to wonder what he really thought about incest during one of the dozens of times sitting through PFAL (I think it was, anyway... thankfully I'm starting to forget most of the classes) where he mentioned being sexually attracted to his sisters.
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excathedra
oh, i have. and i'm sorry oldschool about what happened to you. i'm glad your child is doing well and that person did you a favor.
in response to penworks, i was at a meeting with veepee. i was in the 9th and my friend was in the 11th so it had to be my last year which would have been 1980-81 ?
if i remember correctly it was an all ladies' night owl, but held indoors
veepee talked about fondling his daughter and compared it to something -- i wish dot was here -- she was 11th -- about teaching the daughter for when she would be a wife. what the heck did he compare it to? like an old tribe or something? anyway, i walked out and was in the ladies room physically sick and my friend came in and realized it was me in there. we were obviously too desensitized (is it) to press charges. we hung in there, i guess looking for a spiritual meaning pppppfffffttttt
never mind both of us come from very screwed up childhoods
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waysider
I'm not very skilled at doing searches but there are references to these occasions on various threads discussing the CF&S class. There are at least two posters here who have posted about being personally present at one or two of these events. These are first-hand accounts. I think mid 1970s is the approximate time frame. Now, my memory is a bit fuzzy on this one, so I can't really say where or when, but I, myself, recall VPW describing this scenario and doing a bit of a "pantomime" of it. He said something about how there are people in remote societies who do this sort of thing to teach their children about "life". I think this is where he talked about how there is no better place than the family/household to teach these things. Maybe it was in an early version of CF&S or an AC. I don't really remember. I can still picture the little "pantomime", though.
edit
Sorry, excie----I didn't see you post before me.
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excathedra
we were posting at the same time waysider. i know he showed her how to make her nipples hard. i'm sorry -- i'm having a hard time with this one.
why should this surprise me or make me sick? he told me he was the answer to showing me how to be loved by a man of god in answer to being sexually abused as a young girl
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waysider
Yes, that is what I meant by the "pantomime".
Thank you, excie, for having the courage to "out" the dirty old bastage.
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